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The Quest -- Something to Fear

Fear the Running Game

As The Quest nears the halfway mark it has taken what should be considered an expected turn.

All Quests, to be truly worthy of the participants, should be difficult, and should have a mighty foe who at once endangers and inspires the protagonists hopes and dreams of success.  In overcoming this foe, the end of the Quest should be in sight, and inevitable.

For the 2008 Broncos, the Jaguars game makes painfully clear just who and what this foe is:  Fear of the Running Game.

To be very clear here, I am not claiming that they are afraid of other teams rushing attacks, and I am not just referring to the running games of other teams.  This is a unique, fundamentally flawed problem, a razor that cuts two ways.  To understand this fear there are two separate ideas that need to be understood:  our imbalanced offensive attack, and our 30th ranked defense, ahead of only Detroit and St.Louis.

Star-divide

Fear of the Opponents Running Game

I want to reitterate that it is not the actual rushing attacks of our opponents that is the problem here, it is our Fear of that rushing attack, and frankly, it is warranted.

The record of the Broncos plummeted from 13-3 in 2005, while fielding the 2nd ranked rush defense in the league, to 9-7 behind the 12th ranked rushing defense.  The Bates' experiment was conducted the following year specifically to address the rushing defense, and its spectacular collapse was epic, resulting in a 7-9 record and the 30th ranked rushing defense in the league.

Those scars run deep.

The current incarnation of the Broncos defense is built, and is building on a solid foundation, but the execution in games gives away the desperate fear motivating the coaches.  Nowhere is this more clear than the presence of the safety in the box, and everytime he lines up there, it is an admission of a defeat before it even occurs.

Hoosierteacher gives his thoughts:

HT: The default use of safeties is to have two deep.  Some people wrongly call this “cover two”, but as I have explained in MHR University’s article on the “Cover Twos”, cover two is a system and not a formation (though cover three and beyond are formations).  Very few formations feature one safety.  Goal line defenses may feature one safety (who obviously isn’t deep), and the 46 defense (as run by the Eagles for several years) is a safety in the box system, as well as a formation (the 46 system has requirements that allow for only one deep safety).

There are very few justifications for bringing a safety into the box with the LBs.  The best reason is running a 46, which is designed to allow for the move.  But if not playing a 46, the two remaining reasons are a severe lack of run defense from the front seven, or a play related move.

In classical football thought, the defensive backs are primarily responsible for pass defense.  The front seven (defensive line and linebackers) are the primary run stoppers, though they can assist in pass defense with rushes, blitzes, and zones.  It is an axiom of classical football thought that a team unable to stop the run cannot win football games.  If the front seven are incapable of stopping the run to the extent that they need a safety in the box (the area with the LBs), this is seen as an admission of weakness.  A team is knowingly sacrificing the play of the two (or more) cornerbacks by dropping the safety into the box.

This defense has yet to be given the opportunity to try to stop the run with their front seven, and the doubt of the coaches has trickled down to the players.  They have come across in games as a desperate, timid defense filled with fear of their opponents.  They crowd the line of scrimmage with eight defenders out of fear and then, when the get pushed around there they retreat to the apparent security of cover eight.

The fear effect doesn't end there either.

Watch the defense at the ends of games compared to the beginning.  The safeties are timid, the LBs leave their feet when they tackle.  Both are overcommitting, an act of desperation  Believe it or not this all comes back to the safety in the box.  Admitting defeat before you have even tried is psychologically crippling and existentially disastrous.

Psychologically, you see the effect with defensive linemen unable to make the active roster on a consistent basis, the result of too much scheming and not enough playing football.  It also is indicated by the contradiction inherent in advocating the benefits of scheming, as shown in the haphazard activation and deactivation of players, while simultaneously not committing to a scheme, as is shown by the inconsistent variations of 3-4, 4-3 alignments.

Existentially you see results that have cost, or threatened to cost, us games.  Big plays.  In the last 5 games the Broncos have given up 8 barn burners, 3 alone in SD, the rest against KC and Jax, both losses.  Tampa Bay was the lone game where the defense managed to hold both the offensive running game and big plays in check, allowing only a single 38 yard run to Warrick Dunn, which led to the first points for TB in that game.  Against KC LJ tallied 65 yards on his second play, with Manuel stuck behind the backers on the backside of the play, and McCree overcommitting to the tackle as he rushed  up in run support.   When your safeties are out of position, they are not safe at all, and neither is anyone else.

Overcompensation and constant retreat are hallmarks of fear.    This is not to say that the defense will suddenly gel and play great by moving the SS out of the box, but it stands to reason that by not overcompensating in the run game the defensive players will be more responsible than ever for maintaining gaps and form tackling (they will still have to execute).  What they won't have is the trickle down effect of thinking that they have no chance and have to make a leaping diving tackle out of desperation.  And not putting 8 defensive players in a state of constant retreat will help to put the corners in a  position to play the ball, the fundamental ingredient needed for them to get INTs.

There is a reason teams with no running game finally get their ground attack going against us.  By overcompensating against the run we show a weakness and play with a fear which is exploited.  When we overcompensate the other way we show the opposite weakness and the same fear and get exploited.  Even as the defense improves, as certain signs of confidence show up, the big play will still be there, like a 2007 lb albatross, laying in the deep portion of the defensive backfield where the SS should have been.

Fear of Our Own Running Game

109 yards from a back still wasn't enough.

We are still an unbalanced offensive attack, even with a back who showed he could be effective with more than 15 carries a game.  The offense has been checking in lately with a 75%-25% pass-run disparity in recent weeks, and the last game helped even that up but not by much, as we recorded a 70%-30% disparity.

To be clear I love our opening drives, especially against the Jaguars.  I wouldn't care if we threw the ball 20 time to open up the game.  That isn't the problem.

But a 60 minute football game and a 16 game season is going to require you to run eventually.  I am sure no one here thinks that a one dimensional offense will be able to get victories by itself in the playoffs.  Even NE last year showed that they needed a lot of luck to supplement their passing game to advance in the playoffs, only to see that luck run out, with no running gmae in sight and not enough time to desperately establish it.

So if 109 yards on 20 carries isn't enough to convince the playcallers to rely on the run more, what is?  They couldn't have a problem with the 4th and 1 that Pittman failed on, since that was late in the game, after they had gotten away from the run, and besides, one play isn't indicative of anything.  He has been a major short yardage and goalline contributor all year.  I guarantee that he makes that play more often than he misses it.  And the problem certainly wasn't any kind of significant disparity in the score.  No team yet this year has forced us to playcall in a way that we did not want to.  Is it the playcallers?  Watch the cadence of our successful drives and you will recognize the calls as balanced and effective, but obviously favoring the passing game.  Runs get called in many obvious and oftentimes successful situations.

So why in the hell don't we run it more?

That is easy.  We are afraid.

It is not fear of failure, quite the contrary.  I think the coaches have a ton of confidence in this oline and these backs.  Our passing game is such a threat, that even by default, with scrub talent, I think the coaches would love our running game. We can run the ball effectively and the coaches know it.

We are afraid we might lose the running game.

What a terrible circumstance for the Broncos to be in.  To have something of such tremendous power that shatters when you use it, like a sword made of crystal.

We started the Quest with five healthy backs.  Before the first game we were down to three, and so desperate that we kept one injured back on the roster because it was so obvious that we would need him before the season was over.

And having three healthy backs was no great thing, even though many teams would be happy to have that.  In those three backs you have the injury prone Selvin Young, the injury prone Andre Hall and the older veteran in Micheal Pittman.  Not exactly a huge vote of confidence in the ability of the RB corp to persevere.  The Broncos went into the season hoping to survive until the bye week where they would get back Torain,a bruiser back who could take some punishment, but they still have to acknowledge that he has been, and will be a risk for, another injury until he proves that that isn't the case.  They haven't quite made it yet.  Going into our last game before the bye we are down to One RB who has yet to be injured, and another in Hall who was injured already this season but is back.  For now.

There is no answer for this situation, there is no scheme or trick that covers up this deficiency, like using Royal and BMarsh at RB.  We simply need to get to the bye week, and hopefully get some bodies back.

But even then where will we be?

I hope that we will discover a bruiser who can take some punishment, reducing the reps of everyone else and raising their productivity, while saving them some wear and tear.  That brusier could be either Pittman or Torain, but each one comes with their own caveats, and both are far from the sure thing we need to feel good about this teams playoff chances.

I also hope that we will find a way to stop giving up the big play, but if it comes down to a choice between big plays and stopping the run, then we may be damned if we do...

The Quest is just getting started, but it should be obvious that it isn't, and never was, going to be easy.

 

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I am not sure what to think yet.

Our defense seems a bit schizophrenic and it has been hard to get a good read on what the overall plan is for this unit. For it sure appears like we don’t have an overall plan. That said, I have seen two solid performances by our defensive unit two weeks in a row. Sure the D crumbled on a few of the drives, but overall I would give them a A- against Tampa Bay and a B- against Jacksonville. I’d take those grades from our defense any day.

The chinks in our armor have appeared on offense over the past few weeks. Without a balanced attack, the passing game will be completely shut down by opposing defenses as it is often much to easy to negate a one dimensional team which is what Cutler & Co. have become.

My hope is that Shanny pounds the rock for 60 minutes on Monday Night Football. I know he’ll be tempted to showcase Cutler, but its time to let Cutler manage a game for a change rather than attempt to bend the game to his will. I called for Shanny to pound the rock against Jacksonville and he did…for the first half. 75 yards for Pittman in the first half…25 in the second. The second half is when you are supposed to run the ball more. Jacksonville did, while we did not. Result, 24-17.

Great piece Styg. The Quest is definitely a work in progress, but I believe we’ll get better as the season progresses and a Division Title is still ours for the taking.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 11:02 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think we are one dimensional by choice though

Think about it, if you are Shanny, and you have two backs who have gotten injured routinely in the past, another one get injured before the season, a key back get sent to IR and be done for the year, and to have as your emergency option an 11 year RB (I agree with others, though, that Pittman doesn’t have 11 year mileage).

Shanny is gunshy.

Imagine what would happen if we feed the rock to Pittman 25-28 times next week, he gets 180 yards, but gets injured. Then we are beyond screwed. We’ll be signing Shaun Alexander off the docks in Seattle because we will be desperate. Shanny does NOT want to have any more backs go down before he starts getting some of them back. And even if he gets someone back, he will still be gunshy for a little while, because everybody he has is fragile, or should be considered fragile, until they prove otheriwise.

I feel for Shanny, I really do. If he runs the ball 30 times next week and they win and no one gets hurt he is a hero. If Pittman or Hall goes down, he will be cursed for not trying to protect his backs. So the Broncos are walking a very fine line, running as much as they can while still limiting individual reps.

A lot of a coaches job is risk management. I agree that the key to being a dominating offesne is to be more balanced, but Shanny has to entertain the contingency where we have NO running game, and we are one more hurt player away from that.

Also, even with two rbs, other teams aren’t going to feel as threatened, because they will know about our lack of depth. If I’m NE I’m planning on hitting the RBs hard when I can, knowing that they will be gone by the time the fourth quarter rolls around, maybe sooner if I do my job well enough. Monday night is going to be a very tough game for the Broncos. We may need the passing game to be lights out if we are to hang with the pats.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then Shanny is truly caught in a catch 22.

the problem is….the bottom line. The bottom line is to win football games. By being too gunshy and protecting his running backs, we are starting to lose some football games because of it. I think the Jacksonville game could have turned out differently if we had run the ball more often in the second half.

There comes a point when Shanny just needs to roll the dice…..in order to win enough games to get into the playoffs. If a Super Bowl championship is not going to happen this year..I at least want to get Cutler & Co. some playoff experience.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 1:41 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he is the guy (shanny)

to do it too. I could see him throwing all his eggs into one basket, pounding the ball, trying to take NE a little by surprise, and hoping for no injuries and a great bye week to get reloaded.

It would be very risky.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:00 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope so...

it still wouldn’t be as risky as going into the bye with a 4-3 record.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:41 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey zappa

The raider fans like you.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 4:30 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ranked you right up there with OakFoSho!

LOL!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 4:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they don't miss himeither

epic troll

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:00 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, he complimented me.

I love a good argument and that he respects what I say enough to say so then that is the greatest compliment I could ask for….even from a Raider fan. ;-)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:42 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You'll recall that..

..NE did just that in the SB against STL (except that it was receivers getting hit every play). It worked too. Though is NE is going to jack someone, it should be our receivers, not the RBs. Consider this:

The strength of Denver right now is the passing game. While we have excellence at WR, we only have a few guys.

Marshall is tough, and (despite the reloading season injury to his arm) can weather an attack. Royal’s ankle is ginger, and he is small enough that he could be hit hard a few times. Stokley is a concussion waiting to happen. Martinez and Jackson are good, but not game breakers.

So NE could target Royal and Stokley all night, and end up with the match-up that Jax had (Marshall and Jackson).

I’m not sure NE goes that route, but if they did, I would worry more for the receivers.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 1:45 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This just points out to me

that they could probably choose either route with success.

We had such tremendous depth at RB and WR both, before the season. How quickly that changes, down from 5 to 1 1/2 rbs, and down from 6 wrs to 3.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe...

…it’s time for Hillis to get a few carries.

See everything. Overlook a great deal. Improve a little. Pope John XXIII.

by bradley on Oct 14, 2008 2:07 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

isn't that crazy?

our young stud FB has had 3 carries in 6 games, all against Oakland.

I think that Hillis has disappointed the coaches somehow, perhaps in practice, or in getting the playbook down or something.

When Shanny promoted Larsen, he mentioned how smart he was, and how he was sure he would get the FB system down. What if that was the difference?

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:13 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the problem within a problem...

there comes a point when the coach just has to say, “Injuries be damned; we gotta play some football!” There is always going to be the risk of guys going down, but you can’t let that rule the way you game plan. Shanny should take these things into account, but not to the detriment of the teams immediate success.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:44 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in that SB

NE had a better secondary then they do now. Ty Law, Lawyer milloy, Eugene Wilson could all lay the wood. They are very weak in the seconday. Plus I think Denver will go to 3-0 at the razor

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 2:33 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

? 3-0 at the razor?

fill me in as to what that means.

by metalman5050 on Oct 14, 2008 5:47 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the razor

is the nickname for Gillete Stadium, in Foxboro where the Pats play…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:54 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great Post

I can’t wait until this defense gets nailed down as it seems to be our Achilles Heel. I was thrilled in the KC game when even though we lost, we were starting to show signs of the 3-4.

And then the TB game we used the 3-4 even more and I thought “great, we have the rest of the season to take our lumps and get the 3.-4 down then next year its on like Donkey Kong.”

But last week it seemed like we couldn’t make up our mind. I don’t think that we have the player packages or coaching minds to employ the crazy defenses that NE and BAL use all the time which is almost what they seemed like they were trying to do; although that would be great.

I think committing to the 3-4 would really solve a lot of problems defensively but we need to commit to it rather than flirting with the idea. While going to the 3-4 would make the Robertson trade somewhat pointless, I think it would be better in the long run. Pick up a dominating NT in the offseason, and a solid ILB to start next to Webster / Niko next year? Or what about Woodyard? Everytime I see a special teams tackle I see 59 in the mix somehow. If your ILB has a nose for the ball and the ballcarrier what more can you ask for?

But yea the 8 in the box is killing us. One of our strengths can be the LB and let them flow (the fastest unit in the NFL), around runners.

I feel like I run around all day calming down Bronco fans in my family. I keep telling them that our defensive woes are scheme related rather than player related. As much as everyone knocks on Bly (me too during the game), he is pretty good but anyone will look bad when they avoid Champ all game.

A 3-4 in my mind solves everything. A 3-4 will require us picking up a dominating NT, helps the run game, blitzing and bringing an extra rusher from who knows where = pressure on the QB and turnovers; which coincidently is the reason that I think we lost against Jacksonville. 155 yards rushing is not good for a defense but in no way denotes an automatic loss. More turnovers means that our offense is on the field more, the opposing team must abandon the running game eariler, committing to the pass and hopefully more turnovers.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 11:29 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I can understand the difficulties they are dealing with, and that they are choosing their sacrifices carefully each week. I don’t expect anything less. I also adamantly agree that these players can play much better than we have seen.

When it comes to this defense, the only thing I hate to see, though, is the fear of the run. It is almost irrationally overblown at this point. I understand that if you don’t stop the run you lose, but this behavior is starting to seem obsessive.

That being said, I am cool with where the defesne is at. When it gets the last pieces into place, it is going to get phenomenally better, and it will continue to improve this year. That isn’t good enough for the Jax game, but we are 4-2 despite that.

As far as the defense is concerned, I think the real mystery at this point is what is more important for next reloading season, DT or SAF?

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:45 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I vote DT, even...

…though SAF is my favorite position. In our case, a great DT pick-up does the following:

1. Stops runs up the middle.
2. Occupies the OL for the DEs to rush wide.
3. Improves the play at LB (protecting the LBs / buying them time).
4. Indirectly helps the CBs and SAFs by aiding the pass rush of the DEs.

A great SAF would help the team, in my opinion, if he is used in a two deep, standard set up. In such a case, a great SAF pick-up would:

1. Allow our CBs to go for more INTs.
2. Stop the big plays.

Right now, I think we need to fix the DT position first. As much as I love the SAF position, in my opinion we need to fix the basics (and the trenches) before we do the more “exotic” fixes.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 1:54 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You make a convincing case

and knowing your love of safeties, I can attest to the importnace you must be placing on DT to choose them first. Now the big question: DT prioritized in free agency or the draft?

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:16 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DT prioritized in free agency or the draft?

The draft. We are set at draft picks for a couple of years now, and we need to build for the long term. Cutler and crew are here for a long time, so I want to prep for a dynasty kind of approach (no immediate help this year, but a lot of young talent to keep us in contention for years to come).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 4:41 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you see us packaging several mid round picks together to move up and grab a DT we rank highly?

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:44 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No.

I think that was the Sundquist way. Too many high risk bets on a few players. This year we spread out our risk, and got more hits. I’ll be surprised if we trade up this time.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 5:06 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Future

I agree I’ve never been a fan of an active FA period, even by big names. While some big name FA have done great with other teams, I think the cohesion and chemistry is so much better when aquired through the draft.

I also agree with our offense…look how explosive it has been! The only fixtures I see having to be replaced in a few years are C, LG, blocking TE (depends on how long Graham stays) and thats it.

With that being said, if we can do the same with our D building a solid core in a few years rather than an immediate impact then retirement, the Broncos should rule the AFC West for a long time.

I think that San Diego’s window of opportunity is going to close in 3 – 4 years because of cap issues and aging stars. While a horrible thing to say and borderline disrespectful, when the corpse is out of the way the Raiders should be a contender (how many top 10 picks do you need?) and the Chiefs should be good. The AFC West will be one heck of a division.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 5:52 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

VERY DISRESPECTFUL

how dare you bad mouth corpses like that! Comparing them to that…that… That Abomination in oakland!

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:56 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:02 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those top 10 picks

will continue to plague the raiders for decades. They cost a ton initially, eat salary cap, and are not sure things.

That’s ok with me. We’re playing for wins, not media publicity....HT 9/11/08

by firstfan on Oct 14, 2008 6:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Chefs seem to want to go the REALLY REALLY long way back to the top.

They tried to unload their only two offensive weapons this week. I couldn’t believe they shopped both Gonzalez and LJ. lol Absurd! Tony Gonzalez is only 32 years old…LJ is still they best weapon they have. It just amazes me that a team like KC would do everything it could to make itself uncompetitive. I just laugh…screw them and Oakland! lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

I think getting ridf of LJ is addition by subtraction. He is a cancer. But who would want that piece of crap

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 7:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Us...

in about two weeks when the only RB we have that isn’t injured is Andre Hall. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 7:22 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

joking...

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 7:22 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no by that

time the Train will have begun to play

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 7:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about MLB?

Are you prepared to go another year with Webster missing the gaps? A DT will not plug our holes immediately, but a smart and talented MLB would at least mitigate the missing of the gap assignments until we get our DT problems solved. In my opinion, Safety can wait…once we get away from 8 men in the box and start getting pressure on the quarterback again, Safety becomes less of a need. I say we go #1 at MLB and #2 at DT…if the talent is there of course. :)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:47 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MLB first

I still think that we need a DT more than a MLB. Granted Webster has made me scream at the TV a bit this year (LJ’s 65 yarder) and he has made me want to twist his dredlocks in his facemask to keep his helmet on.

But unless the middle of the line is solid, would a MLB be a wasted pick until the line is solid? I think that a DT would help us more against the run game PLUS the pass game than a MLB would help us against just the run game. A good DT should get us out of 8 man fronts and get 2 SAF deep behind Bailey and Williams / Bly (whoever is starter next year).

We do need both MLB and DT but DT goes first unless a gift falls into our lap at MLB in the mid 20’s unless we trade up.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 3:25 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, DT is the biggest need on the defense...BUT

a DT also takes a while to develop. The best way, I think, to get the defense back into the 15-20 rank range would be to get a #1 MLB. An immediate impact DT would require a high pick that we’d never get…at least we’d better never get. lol

So ya, I am just reiterating what you were sayin’. lol I’m done now. :)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 3:29 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DT would be great!

I was watching the Sunday night game and Jamaal Williams made a play when SD had that big goal line stand in the first half; at the snap of the ball he pushed the C back about 8 feet right into Sammy Morris and Morris fell down and wasn’t even tackled.

It seems to be one of the most un-recognized positions but has such an impact on all other aspects of the defense. But I suppose all positions are like that; its why its a team sport!

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 3:34 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Meanwhile, you turn on the replay of the Bronco game and you will notice

our DT’s being blown off the ball by the center….ouch!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 3:46 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We have room to trade up for a DT...

but I wouldn’t advocate that route (too high risk). I also know that a DT is unlikely to be an immediate impact player. But my goal (if I was in the front office) would be a sustainable, long term program of bringing up youth to keep a dynasty going. I’ll sacrifice immediate impact if I can get young guys that will improve for years and will be around. Our troubles on the DL stem in large part from trying to make quick fixes (ala Browncos). Patience is the key to building a DL.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 4:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then a second or third rounder (ala Marcus Thomas) might be the best route then...

It’ll take a couple of years to develop the DT, but long term it will work out. Marcus Thomas is going to be solid for us for a long time. He is the only defensive lineman we drafted in 2007 that is starting and playing in every single game… That should tell you something about where this kid is going. We just need him to continue to develop and draft someone to line up next to him and we’re good to go.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:59 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

speaking of patient approaches to a DL

KC looks to have one heck of a line in about 3-4 years. Those wins in arrowhead will ALWAYS be hard to come by, no doubt…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:02 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're doing the right thing.

Fans will hate it for awhile, but in a few years they should be pretty good. Thanks God we are starting with a core goup of young guys at key positions, especially on offense (Cutler et al).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 5:07 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If....IF

KC hits on most of its draft picks…..they are going the LONG road…it may not work out. Look at Det and AZ. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:36 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not an "either / or" kind of thing.

We can get both. However, I really want to prioritize DT. I say this (with respect to MLB) for three reasons.

1. A good DT helps the MLB look better, but not so much vice versa.
2. Most coaches (even a secondary biased coach like me) believe you build from the bottom up (the trenches).
3. It’s easier to find a good MLB than a good DT.

These are all open to good argumentation, and sharp people can disagree. But I think we can address several needs in the next draft, especialy because I expect a defense heavy draft for us.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 4:47 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My argument was not so much in disagreement with you.

It was more about no impact DT being available to us in the first round…therefore making MLB the more lucrative choice.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 5:00 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Got it.

SO maybe we take a MLB in the first, but grab two or three DTs mid rounds (?)

What if we make a trade for a star DT with one of our own stars, say Bailey in his last contract year? (I know that’s a sacrilige point; I’m just starting a conversation). : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 5:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Point

That is something to think about. There are not many players like Champ and I’m sure he is hungry for a ring. In his last year, it might be worth to make a trade similar to Jared Allen to MIN.

However, it does seem horrible to suggest is that Champ exlemplifies what seems to be missing from so many stars – bitching to the media and posessing class.

I think that going in the mid rounds to find a dominant starter is a risk as well. I think of the mid rounds as more of depth and rotation look at NYG’s DL and draft spots rather than HOU DL / draft spots.

But then again look how NYG is doing and HOU is doing…

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 5:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(drools) 2 or 3 DT in the mid rounds? I hope so!!!

One of ’em is bound to work out. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love the idea of multiple DTs

as backups, practice squad, etc. It gives slow developers time, and you can’t have too much depth at this position, with injuries and busts and the like.

by CoastalBronco on Oct 15, 2008 10:49 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DT!

I vote DT as well. While I do think we need at least 1 fantastic safety, I don’t think that it would matter much right now if we had Ed Reed back there. 8 in the box is 8 in the box and I would hate to waste a 1st round pick on a SAF if we are just going to put him in the box.

I think that DT is the most pressing need in the draft UNLESS we get one in FA but I think that we would be better off picking one up in the draft unless the one available in FA only has less that 4 or 5 years on him.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 3:20 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I say DT

even though Powell will be back next year, i still feel this is the area of greatest need.

That’s ok with me. We’re playing for wins, not media publicity....HT 9/11/08

by firstfan on Oct 14, 2008 6:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I look forward to finding out if Powell will work out.

They kid showed all the character in the world….gotta find out if he has the talent to make it in the NFL

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:38 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if he is as good

as his college teammate Eddie Royal then Denver got another stud.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 7:05 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i am curious

Why do the LB’s seem to always overpursue, especailly Webster. It is starting to drive me crazy. IMO I dont think the defense has jelled as a unit yet. It could happen this year still. If I am correct there are at least 7-9 new starters, by position, this season. I dont think any defense with that kind of turnaround is gonna be smooth right away. It very well could take 7-8 games for the cohesiveness to be there. I saw some good things Sunday. I love how Marcus THomas is showing glipses of what he can be. I love how Elvis looks so much better and active since the pins were removed from his pinky. I like McCree I think hs is an upgrade. But I am not sold on Manuel. Bly is Bly and I still dont like him, but he is better than anyone else behind him.
Offensively, I truly believe Shanny has been featuring the pass, for a reason. I think he could start to shift to more balance as the season wears on. As we all know teams are going to try and take Marshall away. Sunday I feel was a poor game passing wise because the injuries to Stokley and Royal. When Denver is at full strength and they feature a single RB they will be more dangerous. I did feel he abonded the run a little too early. Plus the turnovers dont help. But that being said I dont tyhis team to change to much. Their ID is to pass.
I also fell that outside of 3 possesions the Broncos defense did ok. Plus I dont know about any of you if I see MJD I am gonna show him what people who disrespect the Mile Hi Salute get. I am so pissed the Defense didnt get him for that.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 11:31 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The correct statement should be, Why do OUR LB's seem to always overpursue.

I don’t think I’ve seen Boss Bailey over pursue much. DJ has a couple of times, but he is still getting back into his old position. Nate has over pursued his entire career and that is why he has always been a backup. I have no doubts we will be drafting a high pick of a MLB next year.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 11:44 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Shanny afraid of drafting a high LB?

I’d be interested in seeing it but I’ve always heard that Shanny has a “fear” of drafting MLB’s after he passed on Ray Lewis and took John Mobley…is that true?

And it is a shame that Webster is what he is and Niko didn’t work out like everyone hoped. I’m staying on my Woodyard bandwagon though.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 11:47 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

John Mobley had a great MLB...his career was cut short by injury.

Shanny also drafted Al Wilson #32 overall in 1999. That worked out well for us. If anything, Shanny has a good draft history for MLB. Sure he missed by not taking Ray Lewis, but Mobley had a much better career early on that Ray Lewis…who knows what would have happened if Mobely hadn’t had his career ended so abruptly. Though Big Al turned out to be much better for us… ;-)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 11:51 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in 96

when Mobley was drafted before Lewis, DEnver had Romo from free agency and Shanny need OLB help. Ecveryone knew Mr. Obstruciton of justice was gonna be good, but Denver had to fill a need

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 12:01 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mobley was a good choice

I don’t think anyone should ever regret that decision.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:45 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mobley

I totally agree that Mobley was a good choice. And I wouldn’t want Ray Lewsi on my team. The way he screams at his teammates is repulsive.

See everything. Overlook a great deal. Improve a little. Pope John XXIII.

by bradley on Oct 14, 2008 2:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ILB and OLB

And some feel that he could even play SS. He was expected to transition to safety eventually at Kentucky, but because of injuries he ended up starting at WLB. He was awesome there and they decided to just keep him there. he has a real nose for the football, elite almost, the kind of thing you don’t teach. i would love to see him playing weakside, but to do that he would need to transplant DJ, who would have to leave or move back to MLB (which I think he prefers ofer SLB, but not as much as WLB).

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 6:00 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Woodyard = ILB

I have always been a fan of pairing different types of players with each other i.e. a huge 1 gap DT and a small fast 2 gap DT.

In a 3-4 scheme with Woodyard as 1 ILB and another ILB that can lay some wood….I think that would be a terrific core.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:05 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dunno

Someone else will probably be more qualified to answer it but I don’t think so in a 4-3. I think he is too small in a 4-3 but maybe a good fit in a 3-4.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:20 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WLB

He is small quick and has a nose for the ball so I think he would be a good WLB but I’m not sure if he would be strong enough to line up at SLB against some of the elite TE’s.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good thinking.

That’s how most teams prefer to do it too!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 15, 2008 1:33 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think Woodyard is big enough to play inside....

he has the speed and physicality to play on the outside though. I wish he’d get more playing time.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:39 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where was he playing during preseason?

Was he replacing Webster/Niko or DJ?

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano

by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 15, 2008 8:59 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he was playing DJ's position on the second string team...

which is probably why we have not seen him on the field during the regular season….DJ doesn’t allow his backup on the field because DJ is that good.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 15, 2008 9:13 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bummer

I was hoping he was playing MLB, then we could try him out over Webster.

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano

by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 15, 2008 10:25 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Larsen?

Seems to me we have a great young ILB in Larsen. The guy lays lumber on ST like he was Paul Bunyan! I don’t know why he is playing FB when we have Hillis there whom I really like.

Check out the website listed below...

by EastCoastBronco on Oct 15, 2008 1:23 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shanahan's Doghouse?

Someone mentioned this before as a possible reason we’re not seeing Hillis at FB.

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano

by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 15, 2008 1:33 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mayo

There was much speculation last year that Denver would use their #1 pick on Jared Mayo who ended up going to NE and has been named several times for defensive rookie of the year. DEFINITELY not that I am complaining about Clady, just saying I don’t think Shanny has an issue drafting LBs high.

Check out the website listed below...

by EastCoastBronco on Oct 15, 2008 1:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you know what gets me now

Is instead of drafting Moss the Broncos could have had Beason who was drafted after Moss. There would be our MLB. I wounder if the defense would be better if K2 was the starter. Heck, at the worse ti would be the same as it is.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 11:59 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Context

Well I think you have to take it in context. We were looking for a passrush that year and had moved DJ to MLB to replace Wilson. While I am probably a doom-and-gloom naysayer and it is probably 2 years to early to say it BUT Moss seems to be pretty ineffective. Maybe this is his learning year?

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 12:02 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could have had Reggie Nelson too....there's our Safety.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 12:18 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Merriweather was still on the board too yea?

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 3:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he sure was

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 3:39 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

K2

As I said in a previous post, I remember in the offseason reading where both DJ and Champ had sung K2’s praises. At one point DJ said we are a better defense with K2 on the field. I expect that possibly when the team comes back from the bye we will see K2 in at MLB unless either A) Webster has a great game at NE or B) K2 just sucks donkeys and we don’t know about it.

Check out the website listed below...

by EastCoastBronco on Oct 15, 2008 1:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Overpursuit....

…has three primary causes.

One is a lack of discipline. A player doesn’t keep his zone, or play his area. This can be fixed.

Two is a scheme weakness (this isn’t Denver’s issue). Some schemes call for players to swarm to the ball. They will get burned on some misdirections, but turnovers improve, and the number of players in place help to cancel out errors by individuals.

Three is a lack of agility, or “swivel” as some here at MHR like to call it. Along the same lines, some players just don’t have the reaction timing to react to a change in direction by a runner fast enough. In either case, you either have it or you don’t.

In the case of Webster, I think it is either one or three above. Given the lateness in his career, I tend to think it is number three. Still, he can be an effective run stopper. Part of the problem with Webster is that the DL isn’t plugging the line, and so Webster has to react to where the ball carrier is going instead of the ball carrier watching for him.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 12:23 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with number three

It doesn’t help that he gets himself into a frenzy in preparation to hit someone.

Lots of coaches appreciate Nate’s speed, but I’m thinking that it only exists in a straight line. At this point, despite his good plays and even great plays, I am tempted to take less, but get more, in a slower, sounder player.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:48 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speed kills

Everyone has heard that saying and I agree that Nate is quick but the wrong kind of quick. I would rather have someone that was quick mentally and did not overpursue or get all hot and bothered to make a tackle and whiff (MJD running it in at the goal line).

I agree I would rather have a little slower guy but more solid mentally….sound like anyone we picked up in the reloading season?

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:07 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One problem I really have is our lack of commitment to running.

We have always been a powerful team on offense, and featured multiple 1000 yards rushers during those times. But let’s consider where the current spread offense is putting us.

Runners don’t get better as a game goes on. Instead, the defense wears down. Are we wearing down defenses? No. Are we able to protect our early leads by grinding out the clock and yards? No again. Instead, teams are picking off our passes because we have become so pass happy.

Look. We have an extraordinary young QB. We also have young and very talented receivers. Why put them in a position where the opposition expects passes on so many plays? We need to mix things up a little to keep opposing defenses honest. Zappa was very prescient when he noted the point drop from game to game this season. We must run more often.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 12:10 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will be, once again, calling for Shanny to pound the rock this week.

I’ll take a drop in point total, IF it means our Time of Possession is 35 minutes or more.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 12:19 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree.

Note that the approach to the TB game was a win. We were conservative with the pass plays, and the game was a little more dull for Jay (and perhaps the viewers), but we came out with a win. The spread is fine, but only if one actually spreads the ball. Jay locks in too early, and a spread defense doesn’t have to be pass heavy to be a spread offense.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 12:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we also lost one of our RBs in that game

A penalty for running the ball too much, or just some bad luck?

Unfortunately, shanny doesn’t have the luxury of distinguishing between the two ideas.

This bye is so important right now, but frankly, it would be nice if it were this week. Even having one more rb would at leat keep NE honest about defending the run. I think with only one fully healthy back and one banged up back, NE is going to take their chances with us.

The wildcard is Pittman, of course. Traditional wisdom sees him as an older back, reduced to being serviceable in the right situation, ala stokely. We need him to buck traditional wisdom, big time.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 1:55 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point on losing the RB.

Not something I was thinking about.

Torain’s arrival at the station is looming more and more as a major intersection in the universe of space and time for the Broncos. I wonder how he will pan out? (Not to make him sound like “Dr. Who” or anything)

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 1:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Torain is already practicing....I still think he is about 3-5 weeks away from getting back to 100% on his arm.

Perfect timing for him to get plenty of reps before the playoffs…. if anything, it will be huge for him heading into 2009.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:49 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Selvin Young

What’s his status for New England?

We don't even know where we are. They say that we're circling a star. Waylon Jennings.

by bradley on Oct 14, 2008 2:50 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Guru says

check the practice report for friday/saturday. If he doesn’t practice, he doesn’t play. One extra day may help, not sure…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:06 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All the eggs in one basket

It seems like everyone is just trying to scrape the running game together until Torian gets back. The guy isn’t even proven!

But I, like everyone else, think that Torian will be great. I think that finding HB’s late in the draft is great; they are hungry, want to hit people, try to do everything they can to prove they should have been picked higher rather than a high pick who has a bit of a prima-dona complex.

Next year (it’s always next year isn’t it), should be interesting with Thunder (Torian) and Lightning (Aldrige).

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“Admitting defeat before you have even tried is psychologically crippling and existentially disastrous.”

“What a terrible circumstance for the Broncos to be in. To have something of such tremendous power that shatters when you use it, like a sword made of crystal.”

You just don’t get stuff like this at the Denver Post! Great post. :)

by jaffe28 on Oct 14, 2008 12:31 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm voting for Styg for the pro bowl.

I don’t care if he’s on a roster or not.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 12:56 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks guys. :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:01 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You definitely run laps around me mentally.

Which is why its always fun to pick at your brain on a weekly…sometimes daily, basis. :)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:49 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's don't forget

This O line, which has been outstanding (!!) keeping Cutler safe on pass plays has never played together before. I think they have slowly been getting it together in run blocking, and will continue to get better and better. They showed some good signs against a good Jag D.

See everything. Overlook a great deal. Improve a little. Pope John XXIII.

by bradley on Oct 14, 2008 12:45 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed.

The pass defense is as near perfect as one could hope for. The run blocking will get better, but it needs to be forged in fire. We’re not using it enough to make it the threat that it could be.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 12:56 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Weakness

Great article and spot on about the defense. I mentioned in HT’s post a couple of weeks back that it amazes me that the defense seems to be built around hiding their weaknesses (or what seem to be weaknesses) but the offense is built around playing to the strengths of the players.

by mikebirty on Oct 14, 2008 1:09 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that was a very deep, and a very correct observation.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 1:55 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that IS deep

and it could be stretched a little more.

I agree that the defense is hiding its weaknesses, but perhaps the offense is ALSO hiding its weaknesses. To project this theory, go back to the first game of the season, when we had three healthy backs. We had all pretty much forgotten that our number one back (Torain) was out for the majority of the season, as too was our fastest back (alridge). Our number one from the end of last year was number one again, so the transition was seamless. So we come out passing like mad, and were very impressed. So impressed that we said the pass was being used to set up the run and that we were trying to score 35 points a game to protect the defense.

What if what we were really hiding was the above average chance that we would sustain RB injuries if we ran the ball? i don’t think anyone could have imagined how durable and athletic Pittman was going to be, so that has beena pleasant surprise, but for Young and Hall it was really only a matter of time (3 games for hall, 6 for Young in fact).

But just like the defense, hiding is not the same thing as escape. Our fears have us trapped, and until we establish otherwise, teams are going to corner us in the fourth quarter every time…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:08 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In other words

we were trying to fool the opponents into thinking we had a balanced offense but that our passing game was so high octane that it could score at will.

I think with time the emporer has taken his clothes off. We have tremendous POTENTIAL for a balanced offense, but it comes at a serious cost that we can’t always afford to pay.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 2:21 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You hear that?

Chugga chugga….chugga chugga….TOOT TOOT!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 2:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I remember a lot of floks being excited...

…about Selvin, and even Hall. But my concern has always been durability, and it seems to be proving out. But the problem, as you point out, is that we are in a catch-22. Either we improve the run game, and start using these guys (and risk injury), or we hold them back, and continue to decline in our offensive production.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 4:56 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, 2000 yards baby!

I’m a beast!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 5:01 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not play Koutivedes (?spl)

It seems to me that the best and most in position the Broncos defense has looked all year including pre-season was against Dallas when “K2” started in place of Webster. Is that just because they had scrimmaged Dallas all week or is there something to having a guy in the middle being able to get the defense into the right positions to make the plays while not running 1000 miles an hour and getting out of position about 30% of the time? I sure would like to hear some opinions on why Shanny chose Webster over “K2” and why he has stuck with Webster over “K2”? Thanks

by golfsnow on Oct 14, 2008 3:16 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Welcome to MHR(belatedly).

You know, I think if Shanny had his way he would put K2 in on defense in a heartbeat. Though, Webster seemed to have stolen the hearts of the other players on defense. Webster has become a leader and it can be quite demoralizing to bench a leader in favor of some “outsider”. That was the sense I got in preseason. K2 seemed to be the safer guy in the middle, but he wasn’t a leader on defense…Webster is a leader on defense. Shanny went with the leader because…well just because. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 3:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's just my opinion. holds about as much water as a broken bowl.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 3:27 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks

Well maybe you’ve touched on a larger problem a true lack of leadership on this defense and maybe this team, they are very young overall. I just think it is strange that D.J. Williams is or at least started the season as the designated defensive player for the “communication helmet” I know he doesn’t come out in nikel situations typically but doesn’t that show a lack of confidence in the middle linebacker who should be the “quarterback” of the defense. I just think a dependable consistent middle linebacker could go a long ways to improving the consistency of this defense. Thats just my opinion and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t even hold as much water as a broken bowl.

by golfsnow on Oct 14, 2008 3:44 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had a different take Zappa

I thought Webster was selected over Niko because of his speed. I guess we now know thaqt he can get to the wrong place really fast. I am with golfsnow and think it ist ime to put in Niko for a game. Thanks for the comment golfsnow and welcome to the site.

That’s ok with me. We’re playing for wins, not media publicity....HT 9/11/08

by firstfan on Oct 14, 2008 6:45 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Webster has no more lateral speed than Niko...

though Webster was faster downhill. It’s entertaining to watch Webster fly by his gap assignment. A blur really. ;-)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 7:23 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can we get them both on the field?

When we line up in the 3-4 look, it’s: Winborn — DJ — Nate — Boss, right? Why not, DJ — K2 — Nate — Boss, especially in run situations?

by ButteBronco on Oct 15, 2008 11:21 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no idea what we rarely use K2...

could be that Winborn has even beat our Niko?

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 15, 2008 1:09 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess you can assume that,

as Shanny consistently touts the virtues of putting the best players on the field.

by ButteBronco on Oct 15, 2008 1:36 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fine Line

It seems like its a fine line. If you change out Webster for Niko, Shanny is admitting problems defensively and inviting teams to test Niko. MLB is not the magic pill to our defense and while Niko may be an improvement, I almost think it would be better to keep Webster entrenched until at least the end of the year.

What did happen to K2 though? Everyone was heralding him as the Second Coming when we signed him and now what? He’s got to be dissappointed and I would be interested to see why he is only second. I agree that I thought the play was better with him and wonder if it is just the lack of emotion / leadership.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 3:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think anything happened to Niko...

K2 is still a force on ST. He was unproven at the Mike spot…he didn’t make the cut to start for us. Remember, during the offseason everyone is heralded as the second coming. Remember fat man Sam Adams last year? lol I remember everyone talking about no one being able to run on us because he was an unmovable object…well he was definitely movable. He got moved right off our football team along with his coach.

I am glad we have K2 on ST…but he isn’t the answer at the MLB spot. I wouldn’t mind seeing Spencer Larsen developing into something great…he has good speed and adequate size, but he is also injury prone. I dunno…I just think we need to go First Round if we can and get ourselves a MLB that will be a fixture on our defense for the next 10 years.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 3:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will say this

it is easier to get a stud MLB in the first than it is to get a DT, or even a SAF. I think we will be choosing between MLB and SAF int eh draft, and pursuing a DT in free agency.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 4:16 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I won't be unhappy with that at all!

Plus, Carlton Powell will be back next year and we’ll get to find out if he’s going to work out for us!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:27 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

'09 Draft

Whatever the best value is where we pick between DT, MLB and SAF should be the pick with all three of those positions prioritized for the first day (I do think we could use further upgrade at RB and OG if there is someone we can’t pass up). Still, if I had my druthers I’d want a stud DT. I agree with HT in that a talented big body up front would clog up the opposing offenses and make even some of our marginal talents in other positions much better.

I hope Barrett is developing. A safety with some range in the passing game would really help things as well.

by jaffe28 on Oct 14, 2008 4:27 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem is...all stud DT are off the board by the 10th pick....

the drop between the Top 10 picks and the rest is massive. Meanwhile, we could get a dominate MLB anywhere in the first round really. Al Wilson was #32 after all…

My point is, any DT taken from pick 15 and on will be a hit or miss proposition. I’d rather get a sure thing and draft a MLB.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:46 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps I am just biased with the tradition Denver has almost always had with the Linebacker position...

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 4:46 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

plus

IMO it takes less time for a MLB or LB to become an impact player, whereas a DT takes time to develope

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 4:49 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don’t understand how over all these years we have had a problem stopping the run and we still haven’t found someone or a group of people to get the job done. its mind boggeling.

Way To Go Rookie!

by AllinWithMyCards on Oct 14, 2008 4:54 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We used to be stout against the run...ala Al Wilson and 2005.

But in three years we have gone from 4th against the run to dead last in 2007 and 30th this year.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 5:02 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

we have been up and down through theyears, but we were solid as recently as 2005.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 5:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, we were pretty good against the run for awhile.

Then we declined and tried all kinds of quick fixes. We may just have to take the patient route and build slowly through the draft.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Oct 14, 2008 5:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree...

…that a DT will probably not be the best value where we will pick but it’s possible. I think we need a dominant DT more that an ILB or SAF but if we’re picking in the 20s or 30s I’d rather have the best value out of those three positions which is more likely to be ILB or SAF.

by jaffe28 on Oct 14, 2008 10:14 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

McCree is too slow

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 5:32 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

Help out the corners, plus fast enough to keep the play in front of them. If McCree takes a bad angle he is done; the big plays are a killer.

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 5:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's a rookie

last two weeks he has been great, the three before that; not so great. What I like about Weddle is he is getting better. Clinton Hart our other safety has blown coverage way too often too; tight ends are eating us alive.

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 5:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rookie starter I should say...

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 5:59 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

R the chrgers confident now that they won

that they will win @buffalo and @new Orleans in London

by RiG on Oct 14, 2008 6:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hopeful

Those are two tough road games though; Buffalo has the kind of defense that might get to Rivers and Brees has been playing out of his mind.

I’ll tell you what, Marshall will eat New England’s corners alive next week.

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 6:19 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

McCree can be seen chasing guys from behind on nearly every big play we have given up this year....

If he was the closest, that means he blew it right? lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 6:41 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did he look something like this

Just before…

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 10:24 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No...he looked like that with the guy BEYOND him on the field.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 10:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More like this?

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 11:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly....

Thank you….sigh.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 15, 2008 9:13 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is that Stokely?

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 10:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dallas Clark

Ran it past McCree for the TD in the playoffs. McCree made up for it later with a huge hit that led to an incomplete later, but folks do give Marlon the slip.

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 11:30 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great write up

by the way…

"If two hitherto rival football teams, under the influence of brotherly love, decided to co-operate in placing the football first beyond one goal and then beyond the other, no one's happiness would be increased" Bertrand Russell

by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 14, 2008 11:34 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What good DTs are going to be free agents

julius peppers, Haynesworth, Jonathan Babineaux, Suggs, Bertrand Berry, Kevin Carter, Shaun Cody, Tank Johnson, John Thornton, Marcus Tubbs…

by RiG on Oct 14, 2008 5:46 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haynesworth

I like Hayesworth the best and think he would be the best fit but that play a couple years ago where he cleated the guys face down by the goalline will always have him classed as a shady and shiesty guy to me.

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius

by nickt84 on Oct 14, 2008 6:15 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he wont be

available IMO. Either Tennessee franchises him or he gets a new deal. But I think he is a great DT, he is a bad person. Anyone who would stomp on a former CU Buff is in mu doghouse forever.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 14, 2008 7:08 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I dont think Tennesse will be able to....

If:
He’ll avoid the tag if he 1) makes the Pro Bowl, 2) plays in 60% of the Titans’ defensive snaps, 3) plays in 53% of the snaps and the Titans win 10 games, or 4) plays 53% of the snaps and Tennessee has a top-five defense. Haynesworth’s chances seem pretty good. He played 53% of the snaps in 2007, the Titans won 10 games, and finished fifth overall in defense.
titans already have 5 wins too…

I bet he is there in free agency

by RiG on Oct 14, 2008 7:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The dude is scary good when he is motivated

and not so much when he is just expected to do his job…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Oct 14, 2008 7:43 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so far in 08 he has been motivated...then again its a "contract" year.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 14, 2008 10:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

Please, please, let’s don’t wast money on Haynesworth. We’re going to need all the cap room to sign Cutler and Marshall and Prater and…

We don't even know where we are. They say that we're circling a star. Waylon Jennings.

by bradley on Oct 15, 2008 9:34 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doom and Scheffler and.... ya we had a lot of impact rookies from that 2006 draft class. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

by Zappa on Oct 15, 2008 10:00 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haynesworth would be the best pick. but also the most expensive

Way To Go Rookie!

by AllinWithMyCards on Oct 14, 2008 5:47 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Need to work on both

Our rush defense has been a big issue and needs to be fixed somehow. I understand that the coaches are tinkering with a somewhat 3-4 defense in hopes to get some pressure up fornt, however whatever defensive scheme we go with…..stick to it. Don’t change from play to play or game to game. We can’t get better if we don’t commit to something.

Denver has always been a run first and pass second. Now that we have Cutler and his arm behind center along with our WRs and TEs, it is easy to pass more knowing the talent that we have. I mean look at our offense when won our two SBs. We were a scoring machine and that was because we could run really well. Even though we don’t have that kind of running game we still need to committ to it.

I don’t know whether Royal, Scheffler, Young, or Stokley will be available for the NE game, however I hope we can a win here and get everybody back and healthy two weeks later.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 4

by weazel on Oct 14, 2008 8:04 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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