The 2008 Broncos - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
An MHR University Emergency Edition
If you came into this season with great expectations (13-3), you've been brought back to Earth. It's time for an assesment of the team that doesn't swing too far towards fantasy ("But we really can go deep this year") and doesn't fall to the other extreme ("We suck!"). The truth is that what many of us have been saying has been proven, and it isn't such a bad thing. To wit: This is a team that is in full rebuilding mode, and we are right on schedule. If you want a championship this year (or expected it), I'm terribly sorry. If you got overly excited by the first few games (or depressed by the recent losses), I'm also sorry. But the pronouncements of several Broncos writers (Guru chief amongst them) that Denver is building a team for next year or the year after is dead on accurate. Those fans with patience will be rewarded.
It's time to set aside emotion and to hit the books and the chalk board. This is a team that is stocked with massive potential, but still has a lot of house cleaning to do. We are perfectly positioned for a deep run in '09 or '10. The offense is young and dynamic, but still young. The defense took a backseat to repair work in the reloading season to ensure a future dynasty for the offense. Over the next two years, the defense will benefit from a focus that will bring the team into balance soon, but not this year. And that's ok. There is a lot of bad news for Broncos fans, but only fans who live in the present and want it all right now. For those of you who are ok with a 10-6 season, some respectability, and a very, very bright future, you've come to the right place.
First though, I want to start with a little story...
Read on
Once there was a small restaurant owner who loved his little business and slaved over every minor detail. He barely slept, instead focusing on the love of his life, his precious restaurant.
He hired the best chefs and staff that money could buy. He paid them top dollar, and treated them like family. He bought only the best ingrediants. He personaly stopped by each table to ensure that customers were happy. His business soared, and became wildly successful.
One day, word got out that a food critic was coming to dine. The food critic had a reputation for making or breaking a restaurant. People knew and trusted his work, and the owner knew that no matter how good his business was, the critic's articles were going to determine his future.
One night, the critic came to dine. The owner did a smart thing. Instead of catering to the critic, he went about business the way he always did, providing wonderful food and service to each and every customer. He neither ignored nor smothered the critic. But then something happened. Something seemed to go terribly wrong.
The critic, upon receivng he meal, took one quick bite, got up and left. Oh, the horror! The owner and his staff were terrified! After the customers left for the night, the staff sat around and worried. "What did we do wrong?", they asked themselves.
I'll continue the story later. Suffice it to say that I watched the first half of the Monday Night Football game against NE, and saw what I needed to see. Much like the critic that took only one bite to know what he needed to know, I drove home from my father-in-laws house, and went to bed. Was I disgusted by what I saw? You betcha. But I saw enough in that first half to realize that we are right were the Broncos want to be, even if it isn't where the fans want to be. Allow me to explain.
...the bad and the ugly.
First, my disgust. In "MHR Chalk Talk" I wrote the keys for the week. The most prominant key was the first key for Denver (which was so critical I even put it in bold print). It said, "Limit turnovers". Denver allowed two turnovers almost right away (Andre Hall), and lost the turnover battle 5 to 0. This cost us the game more than anything. And what was my first and most important key for NE? "Gain at least 100 yards on the ground (starting RB Maroney may be out this game). NE hasn't had a 100 yard rusher yet this year." So what did we allow the Patriots to do? According to NFL.Com, "New England ran for 257 yards, its highest total since Dec. 22, 1985."
I'm glad that folks read MHR. I just wish that the NE Patriots wouldn't follow my advice.
First, let's agree on a few issues. As a team, Denver has some good points and some terrible points. Most teams do. For example, Denver cannot stop the run to save their lives. We can argue over whether the fault lies with the defensive line, the linebackers, or scheming. But for our discussion right now, that's not important. Let's just admit the obvious. Denver will not be a run stopping team this year, just like last year. In fact, let's just make a list of each premise that I have right now for the team. Some are good, some are bad, and some are just plain ugly.
- This defense cannot stop the run.
- This defense cannot stop the pass.
- Jay Cutler is the second coming. But he isn't old enough or wise enough yet to put it all together for a full season.
- We also have some terrific receivers, but they too are young and will improve with age.
- Despite the 3 sacks given in the MNF game, the OL remains one of the best pass blocking OLs in the League. Like 3 and 4 above, youth is an issue.
- Young and Hall have potential for great break away runs, and are thus fan favorites. But as discussed last year, both are injury prone, and neither is consistent.
- Scheffler is one of the best receiving TEs in the League, but is unable to stay on the field.
The underlining theme is our youth. They demonstrate great ability, but are also prone to gaffes. Jay has a rocket arm, and is great whether in or out of the pocket. He still makes "youth" mistakes, but is heading in the right direction, and doing so faster than can be fairly expected. By next year, Cutler will be leading this team to better pastures.
As good as the OL is, they are very young. Wiegmann is not going to be at center much longer, and his replacement (Lichtensteiger?) will be a key. But the tackle positions are set for at least the next 12 years. We are already good, and only going to get better.
But let's face some facts that many of us will have a hard time with. Selvin Young has quite a following. He bulked up in the reloading season because of accusations that he was too light to absorb much punishment. I won't get into the debate in detail here. What I will point out is that he wasn't in this game. A player, no matter how good, is useless if he can't stay healthy enough to play on the field. Selvin's back-up is Andre Hall. In my book, Hall has the speed to be a great change-up. He is not the kind of back I want to run often. Two fumbles cannot be excused. The bare minimum requirement for any running back is that you don't drop the ball.
I like what I saw from Pittman. Against a NE front seven that finally played up to it's star name potential, Pittman was able to gain respectable yards per carry. Again, it may not be the flashy "big play" look that fans want, but a bruising, power, one cut runner is what Denver needs to gain yards, keep the defense off the field, and wear down opposing defenses. Denver's pass game will be even harder to stop if opposing team's respect the run. I don't think that Hall and Young are either healthy enough or consistent enough to run the ball over the course of the game. This team needs Torain to come in healthy and able. Let us hope that he and Pittman can intimidate opposing defenses with a one-two power punch, allowing a Young or Hall to come in late in games for a few designed long yardage plays.
Outside of Marshall, Cutler loves to get the ball to Scheffler. For this reason, a lot of fans love Scheffler as the premier TE on the team. Except that he isn't. Graham is the number one TE on the team. Unlike Scheffler (who suffers from chonic foot problems and was out for this game), Graham is an everydown TE. He blocks better than any other TE in the League (something that most fans file under "who cares" when it comes to comparing a TE to a "receiving" TE). While he doesn't have the flashy catches that many receiving TEs do, he was the lone catch for a TD last night, had the second longest catch for Denver.
The real elephant in the room is the defense. Let's just admit the obvious. We can make all of the analysis that we want. We can see progress here and there (and I have), we can blame play calling or individuals. The bottom line is that this team has very few star talents on defense (DJ Williams and Bailey are solid, while Doom and Thomas continue to improve).
This team does not have a good pass rush. Even in last night's game (which saw 5 sacks for Denver), the sacks did not occur as a result of simple pass rushing. Denver loaded up the line of scrimmage, and brought massive blitzes. Without the blitzing, Denver does not always get effective pressure. Also, Denver continue to toy around with only rushing 3 linemen.
NE (on the other hand) showed a lot of four man fronts (something that NE likes to do against Denver). They got effective pressure against Denver's Secret Service offensive line, even without massive blitzes. Denver needs to have a capable front four, and they just don't.
Denver's DL was pushed out of the way for running plays, and only got pressure on passes when the rest of the team came forward to blitz. This was despite the injured status of a Patriots starting lineman and a starting RB. In a simple power scheme, NE RBs Morris, Green-Ellis, and Faulk each powered through lanes opened up against the defense, and each (often) required multiple tacklers to bring down.
The LBs were also a disapointment. Boss Bailey? Injured (again). Webster? A sack (on a play he wasn't even blocked), but only 3 tackles.
And scheming also seems to haunt this team. NE kept Denver out of the endzone, and helped their DBs get interceptions by doing something that Denver doesn't do consistently. NE puts both safeties deep and they keep the play in front of them (this is not a cover two system; it is the common usage for safeties on any team). This stopped big plays by Denver, and it allowed the CBs to take chances for turnovers.
The Good
The fearless leader of MHR, Guru, has written that Denver is in the third year of a five year rebuilding plan. One could quibble over particulars, but I won't. The fact is that his premise is correct. Denver is building a powerhouse team, and this year's team is not the end goal. As I wrote earlier, Denver has to be pleased with the plan, even if fans are disgusted with the present.
Some folks may be eager to defend the paradigm that Denver is bound for glory this year. They will correctly point out that Denver is leading the AFC West, and has already beaten the main AFC West Rival that can challenge for a playoff spot. But I think this misses the point. I have mantained from before the season that Denver may have a record close to 10-6, with a reasonable (50/50) shot at the playoffs. A playoff appearence should be a minimal goal for any team in the NFL with a good program, but it is also not "glory". I expect Denver to make the playoffs, and to play in the bye round. I give Denver a very small chance of advancing, with little to no chance of getting to the SB. Some may think this is terrible! But I think that would be very short sighted. While Denver will try to advance as far as possible, the rel goal is '09 or '10. And I think that future is more beautiful than a short term desire for glory this year.
We've looked at the bad and the ugly. Let's examine the good.
The offense is pretty much completed. We have youth in just about every key position. The penalties and turnovers were horrible last night, if you were looking at a veteran team. Denver is still a youth movement, and they look pretty decent even though they haven't hit full stride yet.
Cutler is the franchise QB. Marshall is the franchise WR. Royal is the franchise number two WR. Stokley won't be the slot receiver forever (age and concussions), but he will hold the position until the team decides whether to get a "thrid amigo" or to put more emphasis on depth at TE.
At TE, Graham won't be around forever. Whether or not Scheffler's foot improves, I believe that the TE position will get Denver's attention in the next two or three years, and Denver will ensure the pick is one that Denver fans will fall in love with.
Tho offensive line has the youth and talent to play well now, and yet improve for years to come. Losing Nalen (and soon thereafter Wiegmann) will set the stage for a battle at center, but the guard and center positions will do just fine.
I continue to believe that Denver knows how to scout and use RBs. Torain will be a hero or he won't be. I believe that Young is on the bubble right now and needs to stay healthy. I think Hall may be in the doghouse. Pittmann is not going to be the face of our RB corps, but he will be a solid and neccessary part of the team.
No, the real work for this team is the defense. And the good news (as much as it sounds like spin) is that the team can focus much attention on the defense, perhaps for two or three years (given the youth and talent on theoffensive side of the ball).
Marcus Thomas seems to improve each game. I liked what I saw from Thomas last night (four tackles and two assists), though he still has a long ways to go. DRob is not the answer to this team's woes. He plays well enough, but is far from dominating.
Ekuban plays well, but is getting older. Doom has a future if the rest of the line can be improved.
At LB, the only solid play has come DJ. Bailey has turned out to be a continuing injury risk, and both Webster and K2 have proven themselves enough of a non-factor that several other LBs are being tried out in games.
Champ Bailey is highly paid, and coming up on the end of his contract. He presents an intersting dilemna. Do you pay out the nose, and shut down his side of the field? Do you trade him for some picks or players (or both), and improve several positions at the expense of one? Do you let him go, and pocket the cap room to build up the defense that way? Bly (whether because of being overated or not having any support in the pass rush or from two safeties) is also coming up soon for contract considerations.
Lowry and Manual were the stars for Denver last night (though they could have been easily overlooked). Lowry was second only to DJ in tackles (Lowry with 7 tacks, 5 assists) while Manual was third (5 tacks). Still, something is badly wrong when the safeties are getting the tackles.
Denver can devote the draft, free agency, and any potential trades to the defense. I expect to see a major overhaul of the defense in the next two years. Will we lose consistency? Yes. But I expect the decisions will result in Denver gaining several playmakers (whether by intent or accident). If Denver stumbles onto one good DT, the entire defense will improve somewhat. If Denver stumbles onto just one good LB, the LB corps goes from 1/3 talented to 2/3 talented (and can focus attention on just fixing the last position). One good CB can either mitigate the loss of Bailey some day, or complement him better than Bly. If any of the front seven positions are fixed, the safeties may be allowed to play the natural "goalie" position they are supposed to play, negating the need for a great safety. But even so, a good safety pick-up in such a scenario would serve to prevent big plays like we saw in each of our losses.
The offense is already very good, but young enough to make some bone headed errors. By next year, this will be a "NE Brady led" or "INDY Manning led" level talented offense. What reamins to building a SB team is putting a defense with that offense. Give the team one or two years. The offense will still be around, playing very well and with many years left.
Shanahan has bought himself time to fix the defense, while growing the offense. If your goal is a SB appearance in the next few years, than this year is a bright moment because it is part of the path that Mike has built. If this year is your goal, you might not enjoy the season. But if you can look at the big picture, and see that this year is the journey and not the destination, you can smile. Yes, even after last night's game.
The owner called the newspaper and aked to speak with the critic. When the critic answered, the owner apologized for anything that might have been wrong. He told the critic about the hard work, the love, the effort, the time, and the money he had invested.
The critic just laughed. "You must think I had a bad experience! Not at all! The food was great, the atmosphere was great, the service was great, and I loved it all. Your restaurant is in first place in my book, and my article will reflect that. Your phone call tells me that you interested in continuing improvement. Someday, I think your restaurant will be known far and wide. Just keep doing what you are doing".
"But you only had one bite", said the owner.
"That's true. But this isn't my first restaurant I've looked at either. I've been around the block a few times. I know what a good place looks like, and what doesn't work. There are always things that need work, and there are always positives and negatives. I tried the food and it was great. But I also looked ahead. Your business is expanding, and you are making the right moves to put together a chain of restaurants some day. The food is just a part of the equation. I know what it takes to have a successful restaurant. You are a winning owner, and you are willing to do what it takes to always expand and grow."
I've been watching football for a few years. I've been around the block. I've endured losses, both for the Broncos (whom I love) and teams that I have coached at the academic levels (and it is very personal to have a team win and lose when you are one of the coaches). I've learned a few things during that time.
- Don't let the wins get you too high. Use your head, not your heart.
- Don't let the losses get you down. Use your head, not your heart.
- Shoot for the moon, but keep your expectations realistic.
- Recognize that there is a trend within a season, but also from season to season. Know the difference.
- Sustained improvement from season to season is more valuable than within a season.
Given that., now consider this...
- We are a better team than last year.
- We can expect to be even better next year.
- Who came into this season expecting us to beat NE? (We didn't)
- Who came into this season expecting us to beat SD? (We did)
- Who came into this season expecting the NFC South to be so good? (Note that we have beaten both NFC South teams we have played).
And now, I want to use our own words from an old article I wrote, called The '08 Schedule Overview (Pt. 1).
First, a poll (that covers our first 8 games, including the upcoming MIA game after the bye):
Denver wins how many games in the first half of the season?
2%7 or 8
32%6
46%5
17%4 or less
67 votes | Poll has closed
If we beat MIA, Denver is meeting or exceeding the expectations of 64% of MHR members who voted.
Here are some other worthwhile quotes from the article. Keep in mind how optimistic people are, even assuming losses to JAX, SD, and NE. (In fact, we beat SD, and lost to JAX and NE as expected. KC is the only real bump in the road here)...
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Agreed.
I think we manage better than 4-4, but we still have plenty of room for a good season even with 4. I think we get 5 or 6.
by hoosierteacher
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Setting aside (for a moment) how good JAX is or isn't...
...I think that from a scheme perspective they match up with us very well. I’ll cover this in detail in the week preceeding the game, but of all the “toss-up” games this one concerns me the most.
by hoosierteacher
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I agree with the 5 win prediction.
One area of help is that SD plays two teams with simular records from last year. That may keep us in striking range for a playoff berth. They are as good as last year (or even a little less, with potential season starting injuries), but we should be moderately improved. Relatively, our schedule should (thus) be slightly easier.
by hoosierteacher
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bingo
yes, indeed the first 1/4 of the season has 3 important division games. fortunately, we should be able to scrape by the raiders and chiefs in the early going. i still think the sd game will be trouble, being they are a solid team at this point. we are not. yet. the saints could be trouble if we don’t have our o/d-lines and st’s operating smoothly, but we should be settled in enough to take them at home. jax and ne will be the real tests after that. i don’t like either one of those. tb could also be trouble, but we should eke that one out. the fish? pencil that one in as a w. i’m guessing 5-3, and in the second half of the season we should rip off a bunch of wins. even on the road. the offense will be rolling by then, and we should win some games on that alone. i expect a strong finish against very beatable teams. i’ll say 11-5, a playoff wild-card berth, and a 34-20 beating at indy in the wc round(sorry, i had a nightmare). the big dogs will be in the playoffs, and we just don’t look solid enough in all areas. new coaches, players, injury concerns, and rookies in important spots usually doesn’t make for a playoff run. if we can steal the division, this all changes. but sd has a similar schedule, and i just can’t see them stumbling to 5-6 losses. can i?
by davecheffy
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My bottom line? We are right were we expected us to be, and we felt good about being here when we predicted it. Now is not the time to be upset! We are in a good position based on our pre-season hopes. Many of us would be happy with 4-4 or 5-3 after the MIA game, according to our pre-season hopes, but when it happens, we express sorrow?
Shake it off Denver fans!
We are right where I thought we would be, and it's a good place.
We lead the division. We are better than last year. We have a shot at a playoff spot to prepare our youngsters for next year. We can reasonably expect to improve next year.
Now get out there and cheer your team on!
5 recs |
190 comments
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Comments
Awesome Article HT
Thanks for bringing us back down to Earth and remind us that based on what we were thinking just 3 months ago is right where we expected (hoped?) to be.
Though I was pretty upset with how they played last night, overall I have to admit that we are still building and the best is yet to come for years to come.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 21, 2008 4:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I was disgusted by last night.
On the other hand, this is the season I was hoping for before the season began.
I had our chances in Oakland at slightly better than 50/50, and we won. I was concerned about SD, but we won. I was concerned about NO, and we won. I was concerned about TB, and we won. Jax scared me before the season started, and so did NE. We lost both. Only the KC game threw me completety. At this point, we’ve won more games than I expected, and the season just gets easier now. We are a young team, so improvement is a reasonable expectation.
I think we’ve got the season right where we want it. (Or “wanted” it).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rest of the season easier from here out?
I would have thought at the beginning of the season that we would roll through the second half of the season, but Miami and Atlanta are much better than I originally thought they would be (especially Atlanta at Home) and I didn’t see Buffalo being at the top of the AFC East either.
Granted it should be easier than the first half but I don’t see any of the teams in the second half being pushovers (especially now that we know KC can put a hurt on us – but I expect the Broncos to put a hurting on them at Mile High). Not too worried about the faders.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 21, 2008 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at it like this.
Nobody expected the NFC South to be so good. We have beaten both NO and TB, both of whome are good teams this year. CAR still worries me, and ATL worries me more than they did at season’s start. But I like our opening 2-0 shot over the NFC South.
I thought we would beat KC, and lose to SD. While I hate losing to KC, I’m happy with the trade off. We beat SD, and SD is the only team that can give us a run for the money in the AFC West.
MIA looks tougher than they did at season’s start, but I think we still beat them.
I expected losses against Jax and NE. The article I put up earlier this year seemed to garner the same opinions from MHR folks. We expected the current record, and were even hopeful for it. I really like where we are at. It won’t lead to a deep playoff run, but most of us didn’t expect it to. Instead, we should have a better season than last year, and a great season next year.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I still want to see a playoff appearance and would plead for a playoff win so the press backs of Shanahan needing Elway so bad.
—Let’s also be honest here. How many teams can turn the ball over 5 times and NOT get blown out? Pittsburgh, Giants and Baltimore (MAYBE)…Yes our defense is weak (and that’s putting it lightly) But we haven’t used the clock up ONCE this year. If Torain is who we think he is then we automatically start eating up clock and giving Cutler space to put the ball in the air (with DB’s giving our WR’s a little pocket since they are guarding for the run).
"...The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.."
--Teddy Roosevelt, The Man in the Arena
by Loveland310 on Oct 21, 2008 11:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It scares me when you quote McCain
:)
Fullbacks Rule
by Emmett Smith on Oct 22, 2008 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
Took me a minute, but I get it. Very nicely done!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that we are right where the majority of us had hoped BUT...
We also thought the Patriots would be led by Tom Brady…we didn’t expect a lot of things this season has shown us. So saying “Yes we are right where we had hoped we’d be back in July” doesn’t help much, because back in July this entire season looked different—across the NFL not just in our little world as Bronco fans.
—I’m realistic. I’m somewhat OK with where we are. Our schedule isn’t MUCH easier than the first half, but I believe it’s easier than what we’ve done (Though I’m in graduate school in NC and the Panthers are gonna be REAL TOUGH at home, but I’ll be there cheering). We’re young(is it 4th youngest in the NFL???) so I expect growing pains. Looking back I really think KC was our biggest mistake. Losing last night wasn’t a HUGE deal (getting blown out was)
—We have a real shot at going 6-0 over the next few games if you look at the schedule, IF we have a couple things fall into place. IF Torain can be the guy we all hope and IF Champ isn’t as hurt as we think and IF we use the first half of the season to learn from our mistakes(both on offense and defense but ESPECIALLY defense. We CAN go 6-0 (which YES is hard, but look who we play, a combined record of 16-22) and then eek out a win over SD (VERY possible) Carolina (ehh maybe) or Buffalo (at least it’s at home but I’m not optimistic) then we have a record of 10-6 or 11-5. I just want to see us in the playoffs and get the press off of Shanahan’s “Hasn’t won a playoff game since Elway” garbage by just taking 1 game(I’ll take more of course) even if it’s a wildcard game. We’re young, and like Guru said, we have to take the bad with the good. We have our chore guys on Offense and we have our best YOUNG player on defense signed to a new contract (DJ Williams of course). We’re a lot better than last night’s team.
"...The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.."
--Teddy Roosevelt, The Man in the Arena
by Loveland310 on Oct 21, 2008 11:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT great points as always
I think what the level of frustration is that this game we saw a complete lack of effort from the offense. Basically once the fumbles happened it was, oh well we are doomed, lets abandon the game plan, chuck up ill advised passes, and basically give up. After the second fumble we were only down 6-0, our defense had held them to FG and was getting pressure on Cassel, but it seemed like rather than buckling up the chim strap and saying lets go find a way to win, we pulled out the 45 and started shooting ourselves in the foot. I really wouldn’t have been that angry with a lose, but coming off the J-Ville game, you would expect that this team would be focused and hungry to redeem themeselves. What I witnessed was a bunch of guys who looked more interested in getting to the bye week than playing a real game, that is what irks me. If they lose and play hard and smart, then I am fine with it, but to lose because you commit stupid turnovers, won’t or can’t tackle, and have dumb penalities, that is nothing to be happy with. Brandon Marshall fumbling because he is trying to make a play I am OK with, Hall fumbling because he doesn’t hold the ball correctly, that I am not OK with. Cutler throwing an int into double coverage because he is trying to come back or make a play and all his other WR are injured I am fine with, Cutler throwing a int because he won’t check down, I am not fine with. Defense giving up a TD to Moss because Bailey is out, well that is to be expected, allowing 3rd string RB to walk into the endzone without being touched, that I am not fine with.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 4:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
As an individual game...
…this was a disgusting effort. Looking at the season overall, this is a game many of us penciled in as a loss. NE finally showed up to play, and it was against us. We also played a horrible game.
If we are 4-4 or 5-3 after the Miami game (I expect us to be 5-3), we are very much on track for what MHR members were hoping for as a record for the first half of the season.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I can also handle a loss by a young team that is learning. What I can’t handle also is the above mentioned lack of effort and discipline. Am I happy about where we are: Yes, I guess so. However, I also know that just because a team is young, doesn’t mean that they can give up like they did last night when things were not going their way. A load of young talent, yes. The mental strength and character to get to the next level, that remains to be seen.
Un-Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 21, 2008 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding your Cutler comment
Don’t forget his injury on the first play. That really changed the entire game for us. Denver has been a pass heavy team this year. When your QB injures his index finger on his throwing hand (THE most important digit on a QBs hand), you are no longer a pass heavy team. Kudos to Jay for fighting through, but you could see his passes lost accuracy and especially velocity. The index finger is the finger you use to put the final push and spin on the ball. It is vital to a proper football throwing technique.
I think it is entirely possible that we had to deviate from our originally scripted play calling plans. When your QB can’t throw, you can’t call deep routes. SO when you start faling behind, you need your QB to be able to throw quick and deep. He couldnt do either. Game over.
Check out the website listed below...
by EastCoastBronco on Oct 22, 2008 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post
But too me I cant honestly say Lowry is better than McCree right now, Being #2 on the team in tackles for a safety could be one of 2 things. from what I saw he was out of position a lot, and missed some tackles. I am not as high on him as you. BUT, he is young and will get better. I like you and excited for what this team is going to be. We all have seen glimpses. I will trade what the Broncos are now than what they were last season. IMO I would not trade Champ at all. Resign when its time (but doesnt his deal run thru 2010? If it does I dont see Denver resigning him until a new CBA is in place) a shut down corner is so vital. Look at what Randy Moss did after Champ went out. Plus the defense IMO needs to take on his persona. He is a tough SOB and the defense needs that type of ’tude
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 4:52 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree with your opinion of Lowry
If he had made the tackles that he missed, he might have had more tackles than DJ and Morris wouldn’t have 100+ yards rushing in 20 minutes of play. There were at least a couple of plays where Lowry was running through the gap at the same time as Morris and they just passed like strangers in the night!
Even when he did get a hit on someone, he didn’t take them down (necessarily).
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 21, 2008 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowry looked like a cape on most of the tackles he made
Basically hung on the guy and if he feet got wrapped up then he might trip, otherwise the dudes wre carrying him into the endzone for the celebration.
The fact that the dweeb was celebrating what he thought was a tipped ball interception after the Broncos were humilated all night only hightens my hatred of this fool. I can’t believe that you couldn’t stick Woodyard or Barret back there and get as good if not better play.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
a cape!
LOL… I described him as a backpack during the game :)
by CoastalBronco on Oct 21, 2008 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowry must go
This guy stinks, poor position, missed tackles, and then getting steam rolled when he gets in the way of the RB. What can you say though, when you get a waiver wire guy chances aren’t very good that he is very good.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He must have been doing something right.
Second most tackles on the team, indicating that he was in place most plays and getting guys to the ground. Was he great? No. But his effort was much better than those around him (in my opinion).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really have to question the scorer if he had the second most tackles, because honestly, it looked like guys triped and Lowry accidently fell on them
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowry was being expected to not only cover for the CBs, but make tackles...
…on almost every running play because the front seven didn’t show up. He was in position on almost every single play of the game (whether he was making or missing tackles). If he wasn’t, he would be making and or missing so many. On the other hand, only DJ had more tackles, and nobody else on the team was even in position.
At least the guy was missing tackles. Everyone else seemed out of position or kocked out of the way. And even so, the guy STILL managed a solid number of tackles. It’s his first game starting for us, and he still managed to do a better job than everyone but DJ and Champ (no one throws his way). I don’t endorse him as a starter, but I can’t throw him under the bus for this game either.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will happily throw him under the Bus and drive that bus down Colfax
What I saw from Lowry was that he was in position because that is where the Patriots ran the ball at, if I am playing safety and I am on the strong side and they are running downhill at me, then I will likely be in position to make plays. The fact was almost all of his tackles were ten yards off the line of scrimmage and consisted of him getting in the way of the ball carrier rather than actually hitting someone and putting them into the ground. When he was in position at the line of scrimmage he would miss tackles consistently, if he is the 8th man in the box, then he can’t miss on those plays because then you get what we had last night which was guys running free past the line of scrimmage.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then by implication...
..we should get rid of the seven guys in front of him, six of whom couldn’t get as many tackles, and 7 of whom who weren’t even even positioned well enough, causing a safety to do their jobs for them. (I’m not entirely against ejecting several of our defensive players this year at any rate).
Love him or hate him (I am neither), he outplayed the entire front seven.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully disagree HT
The guys in front of Lowry, although the line played better in my opinion, were dealing with blockers. Lowry consistently whiffed on tackles while being unblocked, and when he did make the tackle he was holding on for dear life. By the way, what are his measureables? He looks like a big strong guy, but I sure couldn’t tell by his tackling.
I will say however, that 2 or 3 of his tackles were downfield and neither Manuel or McCree would have had the speed to get in position to make those.
Un-Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 21, 2008 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair statement.
Each player has their jobs. The DL (the heart of our problem, in my opinion) doesn’t protect our LBs. The LBs get blocked out, and now one player in coverage has to make every tackle that comes his way. The DL rarely gets noticed on each play. Each of them bear responsibility for not keeping the blockers away from the LBs. The LBs bear responsibility for not getting tackles too. Lowry, for his part, bears responsibility for mistakes he made too. Despite all of the bad play by all of the defense, two players managed to get a lot of tackles. I’m going to give some credit there. I respect the views of folks that don’t think Lowry’s numbers mean much.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great as always
Good to get everybody back to earth and point out that we were happy with the prospect of 4-3 going into the bye.
The only place I’ll disagree with you was in your listing of Lowry as a star last night. He made some tackles but he also had some horrible and inexcusable misses that lead to big plays in the NE running attack. I actually thought he was among the worst players on the field. Still, it was his first start and he might improve. I would like to see Barrett and Rogers come up to the active roster and start to get some playing time. They can’t play much worse than we have at safety, they can learn on the job, and the coaching staff can evaluate them better going into the draft. Right now I have SAF as my third need in the draft after DT and ILB, but if Barrett or Rogers looks to have a handle on the position I wouldn’t mind seeing us prioritize RB ahead of SAF.
by jaffe28 on Oct 21, 2008 4:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree to a point.
Why are we putting so much blame on Lowry? Lowry made his share of tackles. The real culprits are the front seven, who let RBs get through almost every time. If Lowry tackled every darned RB that got through the front seven, we wouldn’t need a front seven.
Lowry’s job is to get the plays that get past the front seven and the CBs. I think that we are expecting him to make every tackle for the team. The sheer number of tackles he had, as well as missed tackles, indicates that he was in the right place at the right time. Now we expect him to tackle when no one else is? He already cleaned up most of the mess the front seven gave him. He was the most consistent tackler on the field.
Don’t take this an an edorsement though. It was just one game, and he did miss many tackles. But the guy isn’t superman. He would have looked great if he wasn’t expected to make every single tackle last night. He’s not a one man army. I blame the front seven for expecting a safety to do all of their work.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
I disagree about your assesment of Lowry. I thought his play was mediocre at best. I know you have a thing for safeties but his shortcomings were mental related rather than ability related (does that make sense?).
I think everyone thinks of the play(s) where Lowry is missing an arm tackle, falling down, getting juked, etc. I think most fans (myself included), expect that if a player is within mere feet of an offensive ball carrier, that player should make the tackle. Granted Lowry finished with a healthy amount of tackles however tackles alone should not be the measure of sucess. Instead, how many tackles did Lowry make out of the tackles he probably should have made?
I do agree that Lowry seemed to be in position more than anyone else other than DJ and Champ. Maybe Lowry simply exposed himself by being where he was supposed to be, the other players weren’t able to be criticized because we couldn’t see them.
On a positive note, that was another fantastic post as always. I have always been a huge fan of articles being a football coach myself and am just now trying to start participating in conversation. Your article stated everything that needed to be said and was true; you are right that people saw the 3-0, 4-1, and even 4-2 and saw that we were better than we thought we would be. However the proof is in the pudding and I think teams took us for granted more than anything; especially SD. Next year will be a defensive building season and On-the-Job-Training for the new aquisitions and then ’10 should be a good one.
Again great post.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Nick.
I hate for Lowry to be the main subject of the story, but tell me what you think of the following assesment. Let’s agree that Lowry played poorly for a moment (he did). The only reason he is getting noticed (in my opinion) is two factors. First, he had the second most tackles on the team. Second, he had the oppotunity to both do well and terribly because 7 people in front of him did a “worse” job than he did. I guess my feeling is that Lowry is getting the blame, when it is the front seven who 1) failed to tackle, and 2) let every play get to Lowry in the first place. When those plays got to him, he at least made more tackles than they did. The play of the entire defense was awful. At least Lowry was better than at least 8 other players.
If Champ Bailey whiffed on a lot of run plays, my first reaction would be, “Why are we blaming a CB for missing tackles that the front seven are supposed to be making?” Champ is beyond human, and it isn’t fair to compare Lowry to him. My point is that Lowry played better than most of the rest of the defense, and the focus belongs on the guys not getting as many tackles and allowing plays to get past the first seven yards after scrimmage to begin with.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
As we all know the axiom about a certain substance rolling downhill, the same applies to Lowry. You are correct in saying that many of the plays he missed on should never have gotten to him. However, he is the saftey and when he misses, he misses big and it goes for a big play. So essentially, his mistakes are amplified and he is the one that everyone notices.
So I do agree with you in that the mistakes are not entirely Lowry’s fault; we are expecting him to make chicken salad out of chicken poo. Lowry is an average player at best, possibly below average 90% of the time. Last night he played below average but due to the shortcomings of the rest of the D, it looked like we could have put the cheerleaders in and had them dazzle Morris with their pom-poms.
This does point out the glaring need for a safety. On a water heater, there is a safety valve. If all other aspects of your water heater fail, the safety valve prevents the water heater from turning into an ICBM and blowing your roof to kingdom come. If you have a faulty safety, KA-POW. Lowry is a faulty safety but probably by nature; we were expecting too much from him and normally the play of the front 7 would hide his shortcomings but not last night.
Great points.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One reason I’ve been pretty harsh with regard to Lowry is that his most memorable whiff of the night was not one where the rest of the defense let the runner through but one where he penetrated the line of scrimmage, had the runner dead to rights for a loss, failed to break down and missed on a diving recover attempt. That’s the play that is sticking out for me the most. However, you do make a pretty good point about all his downfield tackles and misses. If the ball carrier is running free ten yards up the field someone didn’t do their job up front.
Like I said above, it was his first start and maybe he was just jazzed and forgot his fundamentals. He certainly wasn’t spectacularly worse than the rest of the safeties have been and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a couple more games. Still, I want to see at least one of the safeties from the practice squad come up and get a chance.
by jaffe28 on Oct 22, 2008 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make a good point
Hamza’s play in his first couple games was hit or miss as well (pun intended) but I was more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Lowry is still on a short leash, but he deserves another shot.
by MattR on Oct 22, 2008 1:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
POSITIVE POST ALERT
Ryan Torain’s back. So is Brandon Stokley. And Tony Scheffler.
Side question- Remember all the Shaun Alexander speculation? Well, seeing as Andre Hall has made his way into the doghouse and won’t see the ball again for the rest of the season (cough Mike Bell cough), would you like to see someone like Alexander come in and replace him? I know Alexander is already signed, but surely there’s someone out there who could contribute.
4-2.
by papigrande on Oct 21, 2008 5:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's see what Torain can do.
I think Pittman did well, and would be a solid number 2 rotational back if Torain steps up. This would allow Selvin Young to play as a change up and not get dinged so much. I don’t see the need for a FA move at this point.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Pittman
Was it ever announced (between all the Brady-fest rantings from the 4-letter crew) what happened to him on the first two drives?
The first drive, it looked pretty bad. On the play before he got up kind of slow then couldn’t get up at all (even with help from a lineman) on his last play of that drive. This, of course, led to Hall’s first fumble.
On the second drive I believe he took himself out after a run (leading to Hall’s second fumble).
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 21, 2008 5:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He took some pretty hard shots throughout the game and also stayed in and blocked.
I am not sure how he exactly got injured.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say no
With Torain back, Young hopefully back soon, and Pittman, and I would say throw in Hillis, we have 4 backs that should be able to play. And the only guy that has any game that you may be able to get at this point is Cedric Benson and I think we have had enough of pot smoking RB.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
by Broncoman on Oct 21, 2008 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alexander was signed by the Skins last week
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally hear you on the doghouse for Hall.
When he fumbled for the second time I was thinking that very thing and there is no way he was going to touch the ball for the rest of the game.
I am really pleased with Pittman lately. He is doing exactly what I thought he was going to do here and if Torain can come in and produce then I agree with what HT says.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 4
by weazel on Oct 21, 2008 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
How we got here...
I think the problem is how we got to 4-3. It is hard to steal wins away from good teams and then just hand them away to bad teams. The KC loss is concerning as was the JAX game in my eyes due to turnovers. If they were 4-3 and had played well in losses and were not giving the ball away the outlook on the season could be much more positive.
All that is not to say I am negative, we are still in a good position to make a playoff run but it would be nice to be able to count wins against bad teams and steal wins from good teams. Not have a crap shoot every game about what defense, offense, special teams will show up. We don’t need a team like the Lions dropping 44 on us again.
by bhsmarine on Oct 21, 2008 5:51 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the loss to JAX,
is a loss against a good, but banged up team.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobodys talking about a replacement back up quaterback
people we are not alright at backup Qb If cutler was to go down with a tom brady like
injury all hell is going to break loose
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 5:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Point
That seems to be what makes the great teams great; depth. I would like to see Darrell Hackney more than Ramsey. In fact, I could have sworn I saw Hackney warming up with Cutler at the beginning of the game. Did anyone else see that?
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 6:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think most teams don't have the cap room luxury for a very good back-up at QB.
I think we have much bigger fish to fry right now. I don’t care who our back-up is. Without Cutler, we won’t win many games. Right now, with Cutler, we have some holes that need to e fixed. I think the offense is playing poorly, but the Jags and NE have good defenses, and our guys are young and learning. The defense is inexcususable in my opinion.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Last night was the first game that I thought our defensive woes were not scheme related. Up until this point, our defense was being gashed but we were playing a very soft zone coverage protecting the underneath.
Last night I saw blown coverages, missed tackles, and lack of pressure. Granted we got 6 sacks but it was an all out blitz and the OLine missed assignments rather than just getting beat. Granted a blitz is designed to cause missed assignments and confusion but there was no constant steady pressure.
We all expected defense to be bad this year but last night was abnormally bad. A lack of offense can be compensated for but a lack of defense takes the wind out of everyone’s sails; players, coaches, commentators, and us – the fans.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
call culpepper out of retirement cant be no worse than what we got 700.000 min
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 6:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
No way
I would rather have Ramsey back there than Culpepper. At least Ramsey knows the system, and culpepper is a cancer
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus
Cutler was negative for a break in his finger
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 21, 2008 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutler didn't lose this game by himself, and Ramsey didn't lose it either.
Yes, Jay made some bad throws. But fumbles, a terrible defense, and a solid NE defense made the diff. Cutler’s INTs didn’t ruin field position so much (as bad as IINTs are).
NE ran the ball, and we couldn’t stop them. They passed the ball, and we couldn’t stop them. We had five turnovers to zero, and that cost us. Cutler was a part of the problem, but I blame the defense first, the NE defense second, the fumbles third, and Cutler as well, but last.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Int vs Punt
I am worried about something; is it a trend of a coincidence. Against JAX, there was a third and long play were Jay bombed it out to Marshall and it was picked and everyone tried to make light of the situation saying it was better than a punt.
Last night the same happened on the deep throw to Jackson; 3rd and long, threw into double coverage, no real chance to make the play (Marshall maybe but cannot expect Jackson to fight that much for it).
I don’t know if its the play calling or Jay’s confidence but I don’t like to see bombs on third and long. Go for the sure first down then throw the bomb on 1st down to keep the D honest. What worries me more is the “high risk high reward” throw on third and long. Either we make it and are inside the 10 yard line, we miss and we punt, or we throw a pick and it’s the same as a punt. It seems that when we get to 3rd and long we are resigning ourselves to our fate.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 6:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point Nick.
In fact, excellent point. I have two views. First, I’m a conservative type guy. Because I always schemed to take away an offense’s big play, I had to worry more about the “sure thing” plays that you advocate. I agree 100%.
On the other hand, there are two reasonable points to be made defending Jay. First, I agree with a statement that Guru wrote. You hate to see an INT, but when it ends up placing the other team inside the 10 or 20, and it was a very long throw, the end effect is like a good punt, and it doesn’t hurt the team as many INTs would. Second, you must put in a few long passes to keep the defense from guarding the midfield.
So while I entirely agree with you, I’m not worried about the deep passes on some of the third downs.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 7:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two different plays
On the first one Jay made his initial reads, then scrambled out of the pocked before heaving it down field. His choices at that point were to heave it or to throw it away. In that case it as a good decision by Jay to take a shot.
The second play (from Monday Night) was on a third and 3. It did not look like the deep ball was his initial read, but it also looked like he forced the throw instead of trying to buy some more time with his legs (or even run for the last three yards). IMO, this was a bad decision by Jay trying to force the ball down the field.
FYI – After the Jags got the ball at their 6, they moved it to the 28 before having to punt. The Pats gor the ball at their 16 and drove the field for a touchdown (although Denver would have stopped them for a three and out had Winborn not caught Cassell’s facemask – as much as anything else that penalty was a turning point of the game)
by MattR on Oct 21, 2008 10:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heartsick
This is pretty much where I expected the team to be before the season, but after the first three games I was suddenly full of optimism (I was full of something, anyway). Then the last four games (the win against Tampa Bay included) brought me crashing back to earth, spilling that shiny optimism all over the new carpet. What looked like an exciting year on offense suddenly turned into last year’s offense. Flashes, but self-imploding.
So because of the first three games, I’m in a dark place now as the entire team looks completely inept. I feel pretty certain (sure hope I’m wrong) that the rest of the year will go an awful lot like last year. We might blow out a really good team and then we’ll get destroyed by a bad team. We’ll limp into 2nd in the AFC West and miss the playoffs … again. Le sigh.
by GaryP on Oct 21, 2008 6:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep your focus Gary.
The first three games should have made us all feel good, but not unrealisticly so. I saw us as 10-6 before the season, after the three great wins, and even after our current losses. We are fine. This won’t be a deep year, but it won’t be a losing year either. We may even make the playoffs (with an early exit). Keep your eye on the entire season. You made the mistake of getting too excited early on, now I’m asking you (and other fans) not to get to down about things now. We are right where we expected to be. That’s good news against the backdrop of last year, and good news moving forward to next year.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not. Happy. At. All.
Cuba Si! Yanqi No!
Mariner fan in Exile.
Proudly offending Ma'am since 10-18
by Patrick517 on Oct 21, 2008 6:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm just at a loss for words
5 turnovers
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 21, 2008 6:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The fumbles are killing me
I just have no idea why we can’t hold onto the ball.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 4
by weazel on Oct 21, 2008 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fumbles are fixable
Fumbles can be fixed and I would not be surprised that if we came out of the bye and only commited 3 fumbles the rest of the season. They do happen when the defense strips the ball when the player is stood up, when the QB is passing, etc.
However, our fumbles are from sloppy offensive play. Cutler’s fumble against JAX is maybe defendible as he didn’t think the DE would close that fast; however the ball should have been tucked away and not carried like a loaf of bread. If you look at the major fumbles we’ve had it is just good defensive mechanics vs. sloppy offensive mechanics.
As a coach, I’ve always taught “put a hat on a ball.” A defensive player is already tackling someone, put the helmt into the ball and try and cause a fumble rather than going for a strip and missing the tackle. Players are taught this from the days of Pop Warner and the fact that offensive players are fumbling by simple defensive mechanics is inexcusable; they are taught to hold the ball high and tight when being tackled. However, this is easily corrected and should be during the bye.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 22, 2008 6:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correctable errors
I’ve heard everyone say things like fumbles and other mental errors are fixable but when are they going to be fixed? Someone mentioned somewhere else that there should be some sort of punishment for someone who fumbles (run laps, multiple runs through the “bruiser”, etc.).
I think a lot of it is not holding the ball correctly (outside of contact). I never saw how the ball came lose on Hall’s first fumble. It looked like he got spun around and was leaning backward to get some yards when the ball just popped out. I don’t believe there was anyone there to knock it away, he just let go of it. That’s inexcusable!
His second fumble was a case of trying to get through the line without securing the ball properly and a swipe by the defensive player made it squirt out backward to be kicked and fumbled down field by the Patriots.
Speaking of which, I thought the faders made that kind of advancement of the ball illegal! It sure seemed like they were bumbling, stumbling down the field giving it a kick each time they could “handle” the ball until it was like 20 yards down field. At what point is that illegal?
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 22, 2008 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
…the legality of that has to do with time left in the half. Under two minutes you can’t advance a fumble that way I think.
by jaffe28 on Oct 22, 2008 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
Nothing that NE wanted to do last night would be illegal. Now had it been Denver kicking the ball, we would have had a whistle blown, a personal foul called for roughing the ball, a player ejection and the refs would have handed the ball gently back to NE, wrapped in a soft towel with a mint on top.
Sorry, but it was rather obvious that the refs were making a point last night. Now I am NOT, I repeat NOT blaming the refs for last night’s loss. But seriously, it was obvious they were using the national broadcast to send a message to the other teams in the league. After the Ed Hercules deal, then the contested bad call with NO, then the bad calls against us the past two weeks and Bly loudly complaining, the refs decided to show the league who was in charge.
I know that’s a strong accusation, but I’m making it. Some of those calls were just crazy.
Just a bad, bad night all the way around.
Check out the website listed below...
by EastCoastBronco on Oct 22, 2008 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea...but Denver didnt bitch and moan to the media like San Diego...why punish us for benefiting a bad call?
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
kicking vs advancement
Kicking the ball intentionally when it is loose on the ground is always illegal (this is FOOTball after all, not soccer), but they are not gonna call you if you happen to whack it with your foot as it is bounces off someone else’s hands. On that Hall fumble, Cutler knocked the ball into Wolfork’s shins as Wolfork bent over to pick it up. Nothing illegal there.
As for advancement, it depends on the timing and the situation. Within the last two minutes either half and all of overtime as well as on all fourth downs the only offensive player who can advance a fumble is the one who fumbled it and if any other offensive player recovers it, the ball returns to the spot of the fumble. It was enacted after the Holy Roller play with Ken Stabler and the Raiders and the intent is to prevent the offense from gaining an advantage by fumbling so I am pretty sure that defensive players are allowed to intentionally swat the ball backwards (away from the end zone they are defending) but that may change once they officially gain possession via an interception or fumble recovery. On the Hall fumble no New England player ever had possession of the ball and all the bouncing off of fingertips was at full speed and with the intent to recover the ball, not pass it along.
by MattR on Oct 22, 2008 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe that the advancement of the ball was intentional either.
I don’t think NE did anything wrong on the play. The refs called the play correctly.
I had a problem with the offensive pass interference on Marshall, but it wasn’t a game changer by any stretch.
We lost by a landlside. No way the refs should even get brought up. NE played well, we played poorly. Both teams earned the result.
Excellent call Matt.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is hard to have one game changer
When there were so many momentum killing plays :-(
by MattR on Oct 22, 2008 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
it makes sense that the offense can’t advance it like the Holy Roller.
I’m not blaming the game on that call, it’s just that when it happened the Holy Roller came instantly to mind and thought that a fumble couldn’t be advanced in that way (I understand the offense can’t do it, but it seems like there was lots of bumbling going on to get the ball down the field). I don’t know if was intentional or not (probably not), but that’s just the reason that the Holy Roller rule was implemented to take that possibility out of the equation.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 22, 2008 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first fumble was a drop.
Hall was big enough to admit to this in the press conf.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's good
I haven’t seen any post-game press conferences, so I’m glad to see that he manned up to it.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 22, 2008 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually this whole game was my fault--
it was my irrational exuberance in bringing back the ‘’13-3 baby’’ orange blue Kool Aide Man as my avatar. I brought a curse on the entire team. I will suffer with the avatar I deserve for a while.
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 6:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
The last time I used the Kool Aide avatar was the KC game.
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have an idea.
Drop the mood swings brother. No kool aid or La La Land, but no babies either. Take a stand with me. Put up a logo that shows pride in yourself or the team, and move ahead without getting too high or low. Save the highs and lows for the real season (post season) and the superbowl.
I’m a light in the darkness calling out to whoever will listen. We are not great yet, we are not terrible. We are young, stocked, growing, and in a rebuilding year. Accept the wins and losses for what they are. We are in training. Most of us saw this season coming, and predicted the season closely to what is actualy happening. If those of us who were right then are still right, the season will be much better than last year, and next year….
Next year will be beautiful.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Start calling you Teddy w/ the fireside chats.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 21, 2008 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am right there with HT.
Some see the darkness, but as Yoda saw in is fight with Palpatine, that the light was not far away. The Broncos are closer to be a great team than to a crappy team.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all warm and fuzzy inside.
Un-Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 21, 2008 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm changing my signature back
Thanks HT
Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 21, 2008 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't help the mood swings HT.
Great pouting baby avatar though—don’t you think?
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I laughed when I saw it.
Still, the mood swings are gonna kill ya if you aren’t careful.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL I think you not understanding my strange sense of humor.
I sure hope I can make the conference this summer—not only to meet you guys—but to visit my daughter that lives there now.
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll have a grand time!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm right there with you, brother.
You’ve helped me see the light. I will be proud to stand and fight beside my fellow Bronco fans. If we can weather this storm, the future will bring prosperity! The Golden Age is upon us! Next year, we go to war! I feel like freakin’ Braveheart right now!
*Breathes into bag. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan.
by papigrande on Oct 21, 2008 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
papi--great speach--you should move into politics
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Papi is a good man.
Let’s not waste him on politics.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Took the words right out of my mouth
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's great to see the young folks like Papi at MHR.
I see a lot of the worst in kids (and adults) in my work. Young folks like Papi make me feel much better about the future.
Zappa, not so much.
: ) (j/k)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am voting Obama just because you said that.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 3:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
dont punish all of us
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 22, 2008 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The other West rebuilding teams
We could be Oakland or KC…It would be much much worse. I like what is on the horizon.
"Let's get this thing fired up" - 'Deuce' Shanahan
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 22, 2008 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of teams
that we should be glad we aren’t. Just having our Franchise QB in place should bring a sigh of relief, and then add in our bookend tackles, solid for the next ten years at least (I am not 100% sold on Harris, but he has more than earned the benefit of the doubt) and this offense has plenty of time for dominance in the future.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall and Royal are still very young too!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
just heard on sports radio philadelphia eagles released saftey Jr reed
to make roster room for a needed fullback . Is a good to serviceable player he was
just a casualty to a team needing more help at another pressing position .
the eagles had depth at safey the reason for his release. denver usually dont shop
at all in the NFC east .mabey a call to philly . we know how good the eagles D can
be . he was coached up by a defensive guru Jim Jhonson
\ any thoughts?
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 6:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Stay the course.
We are rebuilding right now. We don’t need immediate fixes. Let’s train up the youth movement on offense, and fix the defense in the reloading season. It requires patience, but we need to keep our cap space and draft picks for the building plan. So far, it is working out very well.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOOSIER and the gang
Been snooping on the board for awhile now. I love the optimism but when you have 9 starters on defense that are well below average in many respects, it’s going to take awhile to get them competitive again.
Offensively, we lack the vertical threat to keep teams honest on our medium and deep comebacks. As great as Marshal is as a target, with his hands, route-running, strength, after the catch and blocking he is but ONE THING- a vertical threat. A Chris Chambers or Vincent Jackson type of vertical player would do wonders for this offense. I see Royal as a PREMIER underneath player with quickness and quick-jumps hands but not a vert guy.
YOUR TAKE
by rururuland7 on Oct 21, 2008 6:36 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
so who are the 9 that are WELL BELOW AVERAGE?
As I have been stating it takes time for a unit with 9 new starters by position to become cohesive. But I would love to hear who the 9 that are well below average
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 6:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take a bite.
Bailey and DJ are perhaps the only two defensive players right now showing above average ability on a consistent basis.
McCree and Manuel continue to be rotated with other safeties. Bly isn’t exactly taking away his side of the field. Boss is injured (again), and Webster and K2 aren’t protecting the center of the field. Marcus is improving, but average (at best). Drob is average (at best). Doom hasn’t replicated last year very much. Ekuban is better than average, but can’t hold the DL by himself. Moss is being considered for a move to OLB. Larsen, Winborn, and Woodyard have streaks, but aren’t causing other teams to game plan for them either.
Some of this is scheme related (misuse of SAFs, failure to generate a pass rush with out blitzing), and some is purely player related. A look at this year’s defense over the course of the season shows us giving up an awful lot of points, and ranking as one of the worst defenses in the entire League. We can try to blame this on turnovers, but at some point we need to stop teams from scoring.
And this comes from a guy who has a thing for defenses. : )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is
9 players who are well below average. Thats a stretch. I would say 5-6 players on the defensive side are average, but now well below
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
As a unit though, we are well below average. At least based on our rankings as a total defense, defense against the run, and defense against the pass. Indeed, well below average.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree collectively they are playing putrid
But I still have hope and feel that they will get more cohesive. I just remember in 06 when GB had a similar situation with their defense, 7 or so new starters and a new system it took them until the 12th game to get real cohesive and starting to become the unit they are now and that was real good last year. Maybe I am overly too optomistic, but I feel they will be a different unitl by week 17 than they are today. A lot better
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have had the worst DEFENSE
In the NFL since Cutler took over in 2006 we gave up an average of 28 points when Cutler went 2-3. We have only gotten worse. I know you can blame a lot on revolving schemes, bad assistant coaching BUT TO me a lot is about talent and identity.
Nate Webster is a below average M.L.B. for everything he over-pursues in the hole and all the tackles he misses.
Our safeties are the worst in football, maybe the worst in NFL history.
Dre Bly is an absolutely terrible zone cover guy and horrible in support. Engleberger is a body.
Ok, Ekuban is solid. Dumervil is situational, THomas and Roberson are constantly getting killed at the POA. They get moved wherever the interior lineman want to take them. Yeah, they have great lateral pursuit becuase they are being blown off the ball 3-5 yards and disengage half the time.
I don’t get the Thomas hype. The guy is quick and that’s it. WE generate zero push in pass and we get murdered on inside running.
We aren’t physical, we aren’t fundamentally sound and we aren’t talented and we don’t know what we are doing.
It will take some time to change ALL OF THAT.
by rururuland7 on Oct 21, 2008 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
First, I’m glad you are posting comments! Hope to see some fanposts soon too!
We agree on the awful nature of the defense. Yes, they are terrible.
I respectfuly disagree with the assesment of the offense though. In terms of the vertical threat…
Royal is seen as a true vert threat. It’s his speed that wowed a few members in the preseason, but in the Oakland game he showed route skills (against Deangelo Hall) that were almost veteran like. Marshall has deceptive speed, but does not need to be a deep threat. His pwerful running style, and his ability to fight for the ball make him a mismatch against many of the smaller (but fast) CBs. Frankly, I love how Royal and Marshall’s skills complement each other.
As one can see against against a team like NE though (which wisely plays two safeties deep over the top of plays), a vertical threat is not the end all of offenses. In fact, against a team like NE (and TB), a short to medium, high percentage passing game should be more effective.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 6:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Royal is fast
But when is the last time you saw Denver get something over the top? We’ve missed a couple, but I just don’t see the separation in the secondary at any level.
by rururuland7 on Oct 21, 2008 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the first three games...
Teams have respected Cutler and dropped there safeties back. They also play off of the WRs more. Denver’s best counter was against TB, where Cutler played more conservatively and the offense worked out well. But Denver (in my opinion) isn’t taking the next step and forcing the run.
I think Styg believes this is based on concerns about depth and injuries at RB. I think our overall offensive scheme is just too aggressive. Either way, I like the current blend of WR styles, and think that a good running game and a better defense will buy the offense time to continue development.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
ruruland got me thinking !
you spoke of eddie royals role on offense . didnt we originaly draft royal to return punts
and kickoffs . I understand his emergence as an offensive threat that the broncos
dont want to risk him to injury . but we need the help on special teams right now .
hall scares me he dont go far after fielding the ball plus he is a fumble away from a
quick 6 the other way.
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 6:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
To be honest
We are exactly where I thought we would be before the season started. I figured we’d lose to the teams we’ve lost to. I know KC is horrible, but Denver has a hard time winning in KC consitently. Those rivalry games always end up being kinda funny like that.
However, after Brady went down, like most fans, I thought we should have won that game. However, after 7 games we are on pace for the 10-6 season I figured we would have.
by dpurvis on Oct 21, 2008 6:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
Our terrible defense can’t stop the Pats even without Brady. And NE still has plamakers on the defense (even if they waited until our game to play like it).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 7:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouir defense
is much worse than I had expected. Our offense doesn’t resemble anything I was really expecting, both good and bad. I expected the turnovers from a young team. I did not expect our O-Line to play so well in pass protection. I thought we’d run a bit more to protect Cutler. He’s made some mistakes, but he’s still rounding out his second full season (32 games) as a starter.
by dpurvis on Oct 21, 2008 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Solid points.
Especially about the need for a running game.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not popular to say right now but !
AS hoosierteacher stated in the post the possibility to trade champ bailey
with a contract coming up . I am all for it we can get a boat load of picks
plus he is frustrated when does that turn to disgruntledness and wanting to get ot of
denver . the signs are starting to show . thoughts ?
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:09 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Never- shutdown corners are way to rare in this league
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT IF HE DONT WANT TO PLAY HERE ANYMORE?
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Champ is beloved by the fans....why would he want to ruin that?
He is also making BOAT LOADS of money playing for the Broncos. lol
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 21, 2008 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that isn't enough for him.....good riddance
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 21, 2008 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
REMEMBER WHEN TONEY DORSETTE CALLED THE BRONCOS LOSERS
AND WANTED OUT THEN BAD MOUTHED DENVER LATER
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
you going to compare Dorsett to Champ
BTW what has Champ said that makes you think he wants to leave.
Also dont ask a question if you dont want to hear others answers
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
ATTITUDE WHEN DOES FRUSTRATION TURN TO DISGRUNTLENESS
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude chill on the cap locks
Again tell me where Champ has said anything negative
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can just tell he thinks his teammates stink around him
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well right now he is right though
Hey I can repsect you for thinking or wanting him to get out, but its frustration, Plus he is the reason Boss is in a Broncos uni. I dont think he wants to go anywhere
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine how awful this team would be without him
We got a glimpse of it last night
Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 21, 2008 7:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we'll see now that he's out for a month or more
Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 22, 2008 6:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like champ i didnt mean to sound like we dont need him!
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enuff
thats how it was sounding like to me. I just think he is being a team leader now,. hell someone needed to call out the defense. Who better than him
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
go to denver post story champ calls out teammates
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
got a link
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
www. denver post / broncos
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude
It looks like you and me are taking what he said differently. I think what he is doing calling out the way they played awesome. He is a team leader, Something needed to be said after that putrid performance last night. Its about time someone on the defense said something. He is a great player and he makes plays and plays to win. Maybe getting into the arses of his teammates was due
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
the finger pointing is starting and you cant see that !
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
is he wrong
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 21, 2008 7:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALSO JERRY RICE FELT THE SAME WAY
BUT RETIRED INSTEAD OF SAYING ANYTHING
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
CHAMP IS GIVING ME THE SAME VIBES
by broncosfaninphilly on Oct 21, 2008 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Champ is frustrated.
Great players want to win….if anything Champ is calling out the DC
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice write up HT...
Though I cannot condone any loss…ever. Period. If I did then I’d have to start calling myself a Chef fan. I rooted for a 13-3 baby season and I realize that isn’t going to happen, but I still have hope for a Division Title and until that dream evaporates I am going to be as emotional and passionate about wins and losses each and every week. To be anything less would be unlike me at all.
However, I understand the premise of your overall point and I agree with it. All of us want the team to be a respected winner, but that can’t always happen. It doesn’t mean we have to stop bleeding orange and blue for one minute. Win, Lose, or Draw…I will bleed orange and blue. I told guys on MHR I was leaving to stop watching…I never came back to post but I sat in front of the TV until the clock read 0:00. I cant help it!
As for Champ Bailey….I wouldn’t be against either proposition you mentioned. Although, trading him for picks and/or players would be a huge risk if you ask me. Look what happened to New England when they let Asante Samuel go…opps! Deltha O’Neil might be returning to play for us! lol
As for two weeks for now….I’ll be screaming and hollering for three hours and we BETTER get a cotton pickin’ WIN against Miami! Rebuilding or not…I will demand excellence from the Denver Broncos ALWAYS! Great stuff HT…I voted quite “homerly”, “NOT HAPPY”. lol
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 21, 2008 7:15 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff as always.
I also never condone losing. I have no opinion on Champ either way. He is my favorite player in the entire League, and i would hate to lose him. I also don’t think he is on the path to being disgruntled, as some may think. But he won’t be around for ever (at such a major cost), and he might have more value for a trade. I’m not for that yet, just thinking about it. We aren’t giving him much help with our defense right now.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 8:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zappa!
Way to perfectly word the passion involved!
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 9:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice one HT
OK, I have calmed down quite a bit from last night and with that I totally hear what you are saying. Watching a team go though a rebuilding process isn’t fun and I realize we just have to be patient. It was a hard game to swallow.
Now I have had some time to think about the Broncos as a team and whether they are meeting my expectations or not. I voted “right where we should be”’ even though I am not happy with our performance……mainly the turnovers. The reason I voted the way I did is that our record is honestly what I thought it would be going into the bye. We are a young team that is learning together. I remember watching Marshall Faulk interview Culter and Faulk asked Jay where he thought he was on a maturation level as to where he wants to be. Jay said if he had to put a number on it, it would probably be about a 6 or 7.
We are able to move the ball against teams so if we can stop shooting ourselves in the foot I think we will be fine on offense. Defense, well, that’s a whole different story.
Zappa, you are so right on that Miami game. I hope they come out pissed ready to prove something.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 4
by weazel on Oct 21, 2008 8:13 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm calling it right now.
We will beat Miami.
Great comment Weazel, and rec’d
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, these long comment threads mean...
I’m simply writing my name on the wall. bcfunk was here.
Great post HT!
I wish Woody Paige was our coach!
by bcfunk on Oct 21, 2008 8:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks bc!
Glad you made it! Always room for you!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 9:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol bcfunk
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Continue to bash the defense everyone.....
I would just like to see one game, just one, when the offense doesn’t turn the ball over multiple times, just one, and see how the defense responds…..It isn’t a great defense by any stretch, but I want to see how they do when they aren’t royally screwed….
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
by John Bena on Oct 21, 2008 9:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair point.
But with or without field position, the missed tackles and the overpursuits are becoming our trademark. The penalties were ugly too.
Probably the best argument is to ignore (but only for a moment) the scores that teams run up on us, even when we win. The sheer number of yards we are giving up isn’t an indication of poor field position and scores by opposing teams. It indicates that we are letting teams make consistent, long drives down the field.
I think the defense is what it is. When we have good field position, I don’t really expect them to get many stops. That’s just my opinion, but the stats say we not only give up a lot of points (turnovers) but a lot of yards (not stopping drives).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 21, 2008 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here Here Guru
13-3 is merely a possibility now—but zero turnovers and we could possibly be 6-1 or 7-0.
Our defense cannot meld if our offense gives the ball away.
The best defense is a good offense!
I hope.
by Mike Clark on Oct 21, 2008 9:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering when you were going to pipe up!
After Hall’s two fumbles, we were only down by 6 thanks to the defense holding but you can only put them in that situation so many times before they finally break and when they broke it was a dam burst!
6 sacks (even against a depleted OLine and only by blitzing) is still impressive. Even though the DLine didn’t get consistent pressure I don’t think Cassell (or his OLine) knew when or from where the blitz was going to be coming from (which is the reason for a blitz scheme – to keep the offense off balance). Unfortunately, with our run defense, it didn’t really have much affect on the game since they could just jam the ball down our throats and run away with it!
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 22, 2008 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey...I blame the offense more than anything for our 3 losses.
I credit the defense for our single victory in the past four games….turnovers are killing us.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally hear ya Guru.
It just continues to bug me that we are constantly putting points on the board for the other team. I mean our 5 turnovers vs. the Pats turned into 20 points. Jacksonville got 7 points on BMarsh’s fumble when we probably score 7. Well, we all know about KC and the fact that we gave them half of a field in that game….2 of our turnovers resulted in 10 points. We didn’t turn the ball over against TB and that game turned out fine.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 4
by weazel on Oct 22, 2008 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd and buzzed up
Once again, I find myself thankful that you’re a Bronco fan, HT. Great write up.
Quick takes:
- This game was lost on the first Bronco possession of the 3rd quarter when the offense went 3 and out. The defense had just made a stand and the Patsies were still within reach at 13 up. A drive for a score at that point would have made it a game. Not just because of turnovers and penalties, I hold the O responsible for this loss.
- Jay isn’t the second coming until he starts winning games on willpower alone. I want to see him out there inspiring his team, not just berating them. The jury is out on how fussy he is — sometimes he looks like he gives up on the play calling (admittedly, I empathize with him at times).
- I’m less hopeful for the 2nd half of the season because the team seems worse in the last few games than in the first few. I was hoping for more improvement as the season went on. Instead, similar to last year, opponents seem to be finding it easier and easier to take advantage of our weaknesses. I’m so over not-very-good teams blowing us out. SD tore these guys up through the air with barely any running game — I would’ve thought our air attack was better than the Chargers.
by CoastalBronco on Oct 21, 2008 9:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post HT BUT.....
I had my finger on “we are where we should be button” but in all good conscience I could not push it. I am UNHAPPY.
Things I get:
- We are in a rebuilding phase as TSG points out.
- We are young and will make mistakes.
- The offense can be electric.
- Our defense is the most under performing defense in the NFL.
Why I cant buy into agreeing we are where we should be:
- Pre season we look at schedules where ALL teams are at full strength and predictions are based off last year.
With the injuries to Brady, the loss of Merriman, the turmoil in Oakland, injuries in New Orleans, decimation of lines in Jacksonville, the Chiefs being worse than EVERYONE thought the “tough” schedule at the beginning of the year now appears easier than our finishing schedule. Atlanta and Miami are WAY better than we all thought, Cleveland is hot and cold, Oakland has improved. We should have been at least 5-2….probably 6-1 and people wil say it could go the other way, btu I believe you deserve to win game when you put up 30 points. We BADLY blew ooportunities to take control of the AFC West. - Lack of heart and the abilty for our team to come and play when there is a big advantage for us. Happend against Kansas, Jacksonville and New England. Thats very scary and show a lack of professionalism from players AND staff.
- That this defense, talent wise is the worst in the NFL. I think we have a couple of great to very good players in Champ and DJ. I think Marcus Thomas will be good, as will Dumervil. I like the upside of Jack Williams, Lichtensteiger, Carlton Powell, Wesley Woodyard, Spencer Larsen (explain to me why he is playing FB????) and Josh Barrett. EE is above average, Kenny Peterson has been solid. I think the dfensive coaches have lost touch. Nate webster has been a disaster, we have problems at safety, Boss Bailey is good in spurts but injured. You have to wonder whether Slowik has any idea what so ever. I question the evaluation system that the coaches are using….why can everyone else like fans, scouts etc see that Spencer Larsen is a gamer…a heavy hitting MLB but out brilliant staff cant. I dont get the selction and evaluation criterai our team is using.
Talent wise, there are worst teams out there…I honsetly belive that but the scheming and game knowledge our DC and his assitants show is mind boggling.
So, I am not happy. I think the Kansas and Jack games will come back to haunt us BIG TIME. I still like where we are going but I am not cutting this team slack at all. We can question youth, yet the youngest team in the league (Packers) mad the NFC Championship game last year.
When you see that, I then REALLY have to question the professionalism of our coaches to get out players ready. I would be totally for Nolan to come on board and demote SLowik back to DB coach where his talents are used better.
Mr Bowlen needs to talk to Shanny and question him on why our team is under prepared in big situations.
Awesome post and comments guys.
Thanks!
by boydy2669 on Oct 22, 2008 12:51 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I feel they were ready. But when your QB hurts his index finger and then your team fumbles twice inside the other teams 40 it takes the wind out of you sails. Then there are some penalties that become more mental because they are trying to make things happen. A coach can coach and thats all he can do. It has to fall on the guys on the field. This isnt college or HS, where a coach should make sure the guys are amped. These are PROFESSIONAL players. They are paid to play. The coach should not have to make sure thet a prepared. The player are responsible for that. A coach should implement systems. I am so tired of hearing how the coaching is bad, its not. The players need to step up and take responsibilty for their lack of focus and pitiful play. But then again in this day and age its easier to blame someone else than the actuall people who did that crappy job. I cant in good conscience agreee with anything you said, except that this is a young team. 4-3 isnt 6-1 but it isnt 1-6 either. We had a poll to start the season the overall consensous was 4-3 would be awesome. Maybe Denver won a game they should have lost, but then probably lost a game or 2 they should have won. Its not how you start anymore but its how they finish. Denver is in 1st place. Lets not lose sight of that. Everything from here on out is completely in the Broncos control
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 22, 2008 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear what you are saying.....
and I agree these guys should be professional, but why can one team like the Packers step up with a young team, yet our guys lay eggs when put in similiar situations.
I am stoked we are in 1st place, but I still have to wonder why we looked unprepared against Jacksonville and Kansas? Myabe it was all the players.
I dont know man, I am a coach myself and have had kids that have represented the USA but my job even at that elite level is to prepare them for success….am I am teaching them the basics of the sport? No….I will help them with that, but my job is to create an environement for them to succeed in.
It seems to me that some organizations have that success. I am not sure if we are one of them.
Nice post SD, and thanks for the thoughts!
by boydy2669 on Oct 22, 2008 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say
they were overconfident against KC. That could be a coach not bringing levity.
Well I happy for your success and I hope it continues. But IMO I feel a pro coach is different than any other coach, especially when the players are making more than the coaches.
I think Denver is a place that successful coaches come from. But the continuity isnt there right now. I mean Denver has averaged around 10 wins per season under Shanny. It doesnt help having 3 DC’s in 3 years
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 22, 2008 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leaders in the Locker Room and on the Field
It seems to me that there isn’t anyone going up and down the bench when they are facing adversity trying to get them back up and ready to go for the next series. Somebody to motivate the team from the players perspective. Al Wilson was great at this IMHO.
There have been many times when I’ve seen Cutler sitting on the bench by himself rather than with the rest of the offense getting them fired up or even acting like part of the unit.
I imagine that the Packers were able to step up because they had someone like Favre (gasp!) that was experienced enough to know that he was the leader and it was his job to make sure everybody was up and not dwelling on past mistakes. Maybe Cutler isn’t that type of individual, but it seems like we need somebody like Pittman or Graham or one of the veterans to step in and say something on the offensive side.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 22, 2008 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness to Culter...
…that’s just not him. Cutler is a quite guy. While he isn’t the big motivator, his personality does have a great benefit. While he can be aggressive, he doesn’t get rattled.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff!
Some very minor quibbles.
1) Yes, we look at teams at full strength. But we are banged up, and so are all of our opponents. All things evened out, I would still have expected losses to JAX and NE. While we lost to KC, we more than made up for it with a win over SD.
2) Talent wise we have two great players in DJ and Champ. Most of the rest of the guys seem to be good only based on what we keep hoping for, but not seeing in the first 7 games. In my mind, it’s time to say that the defense is what it is. Sure we suffer turnovers, but we also give up tons of yards each game. The scores we give up (even in wins) may be attributed to turnovers, but the yards we give up are poor defensive effforts (in my opinion). The defense ranks last or near last in every category for a reason, and I have a hard time pinning more than just scores on the offense. Yardage is all defense.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT I have a question for you???
Why does it seem like our D is having such a problem with tackeling. Are they caught out of PSN, is it a lack of size and strength or is it just fundamentals? I would love to see a post on your take of our tackeling issues this season.
Thanks and I loved this post.
by ThorpeBroncosfan on Oct 22, 2008 7:52 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
At the pro level, you would expect the fundamentals to be sound.
The truth is that fundementals fall away if they aren’t reinforced from time to time, even at the pro level. Fundementals are not like riding a bike (or so I’ve been told by college and pro level position coaches).
In Denver’s case, they are a reletively small group. But technique should mitigate this. I believe that being out of position makes many tackles awkward, as does a failure to make proper tackles because of a lack of the basics. If Slowik is the “teaching” coach he has a reputation for, the bye week will fix the tackling issues to a large degree. Right now, I’m questioning the talent we have.
I don’t like some of the playcalling I’m seeing, but much of this is just my opinion. I’ve also seen some improvement (until the NE game. I even saw some positives in the loss against Jax). But overall, I’ve been waiting and waiting for some of the supposed talent to take off from certain players, and just haven’t seen it at the (near) halfway mark of the season. The DTs and LBs are not getting the job done. Webster, K2, Boss (now on IR), and DRob are not performing. Marcus Thomas is borderline, but still only in his second year as a DT (where there is a slow learning curve). I stick up for Bly a lot because of our poor pass rush and terrible use of SAFs, but if we aren’t going to use our team to compliment his gambling style, then he isn’t much use to us (his fault or not).
In fact, we can brag about the hurry ups and sacks we got all we want. A good team shouldn’t have to blitz 8 and 9 players to get that kind of pressure. It would be great is part of a system (like a show blitz), but we never “showed” than dropped into coverages (that I saw).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Factor in DJs and Champs comments after the game:
“Teams with an identity know what they’re going to give you every week,” cornerback Champ Bailey said during a postgame interview Monday night. “And we don’t know what the hell’s going to happen every Sunday.”
The issue for that unit could be as simple as confusion over core philosophy.
Linebacker D.J. Williams said that is his primary concern.
“What type of defense are we?” Williams asked as the Broncos, despite the recent travails, hit the bye week with a 4-3 record and a one-game lead in the AFC West. “Are we a 3-4? A 4-3? Are we a finesse defense? Are we smash-mouth? Do we blitz a lot? Play zone? We’ve got to pick something and just run it and do it.”
These stars are frustrated with the coaches, there is no doubt about it. Slowik isn’t communicating well enough with them, and the communication is breaking down on the field as a result. First step is Shanny being clear about his desires for the defense, even if that is just that he wants Slowik to have autonomy. The next step is for Slowik to be clear about his intentions.
There is no doubt to me that the solution to the defensive attitude lies in a trickle down effect from the top decision makers on defense. When they make up their minds, the players will be able to make up theirs. Not before.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the perspective HT
This is my first post… I’ve read MHR for a few years and your post inspired me to finally jump in.
After reading everyone’s comments I can’t help but wonder what the games we lost would have been like if we had less or no turnovers, even with a shaky defense. Maybe similar to our wins (high amount of points for both teams), but wins none the less. KC and JAX probably would not have kept up.
With that in mind, I feel better about the remainder of the schedule if we stop the turnovers.
We’ll all continue to cringe when we watch the D, but at least we’ll score and give the defense a break (which I think was another aspect Monday night…). It seems to me that turnovers really mess with a team mentally and it showed Monday with the stupid mistakes, both on the offense and defense. It seems that in all sports if you check out mentally it’s all over…
Anyway just my 2 cents worth.
by NYBronco on Oct 22, 2008 8:02 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for making the jump from reader to conversationalist! Welcome!
Now we need to hear your opinions as an author of a fanpost! I look forward to it!
I agree that turnovers are a key for us. I disagree a little with blaming turnovers for some of the problems with our defense, but there is an excellent argument to be made on both sides of that talk.
But we must stop the turnovers. As I wrote:
In “MHR Chalk Talk” I wrote the keys for the week. The most prominant key was the first key for Denver (which was so critical I even put it in bold print). It said, “Limit turnovers”. Denver allowed two turnovers almost right away (Andre Hall), and lost the turnover battle 5 to 0. This cost us the game more than anything.
I knew that if we lost the turnover battle, we would lose this game. Shanahan preached this to the team before the game.
I also think the defense let the Pats run the ball on us, regardless of field position.
And what was my first and most important key for NE? “Gain at least 100 yards on the ground (starting RB Maroney may be out this game). NE hasn’t had a 100 yard rusher yet this year.” So what did we allow the Patriots to do? According to NFL.Com, “New England ran for 257 yards, its highest total since Dec. 22, 1985.”
Going into this game, my two biggest concerns were turning over the ball, and letting NE run the ball with impunity. Had we taken out those factors we would have won this game. You are correct.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts on negative reinforcement?
I really wish I could interview Eddie Royal right now, because I think he has an implicit understanding of this premise, and that he would let critical info slip on it (not because he is dumb or a rookie or anything, but because i think you could engage him in a conversation that would make him comfortable enough to discuss this because I think it matters a lot to him).
It seems that when we hear all week about how the coaches are drilling the players not to commit turnovers,a nd then they go out and commit turnovers, how much of that could be the psychological power of visualization?
If I’m a coach addressing players who have had a bout of turnoveritis, I am not yelling and badgering them about NOT fumbling and NOT turning the ball over and NOT making mistakes. Instead I am drilling them in what I want to see them do. DO hold onto the ball, DO make good reads, DO Read gaps properly. This is oversimplifying it of course, but I just wonder how seriously the Broncos coaching staff takes the idea of positive reinforcement and the power of visulization?
Oh, and I brought up Eddie because he has been outspoke about his reliance on visualizing success in order to be successful. i believe he feels very strongly about the subject.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a good point.
There is a lot of work in educational psychology about this concept. The mind responds much better to “This is how to do something” than “This is how not to do something”.
Holding onto a ball is much easier than “not” dropping the ball, even though both actions are the same. The “not” is an extra step in thinking, and is also a jab at one’s psyche.
For example, as an employee, I will respond much better to “Have this report done by 5 pm” than I would to “Don’t have this report done any later than 5 pm”. The first is a clear directive. The second sends a subtle hint that the speaker expects my report to be late, and is cautioning me not to be late. On a very subtle level, my subconcious mind might accept the speaker’s expectation that I will be late. (In law enforcement, “Freeze” is considered better than “Don’t move”).
Outside of the semantics angle, I’m in favor of some negative reinforcement. Extra training, lost days off, etc. I’m even ok with verbly dressing a player down. But the way to do it is to tell a player what he is doing wrong, and how to fix it (even if yelling while doing it).
My favorite teaching technique is to internalize the lesson by having the subject of the lesson (player or student) come to the conclusion through questioning. Such as, “Why do you think you are dropping the ball?” or “How should you hold the ball?” Instead of being lectured to, the subject is being asked to actually think. This Socratic method is the method that was made famous by Kingsfield in The Paper Chase as a method of teaching at Harvard Law. It is also far and away the most common method used in counseling, regardless of which school of counseling the counselor adheres to.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 3:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sticking with the Broncos.
We’ve been through much worse times than these. At least now there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it looks very bright.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Oct 22, 2008 9:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You've got that right old timer!
The advantage that we “seasoned” fans have is perspective, much like investing for retirement in mutual funds. We’ve seen highs, and we’ve seen lows. But we know long term trends are the name of the game. I hated to see our MNF loss, and I hated to see my retirement savings take a hit in the recent Dow plunges. On the other hand, I have the patience to weather a few losses for my team and my portfolio.
I’m old enough and experienced enough to recognize a good trend, especially in football. This team is going to take some bad hits, but it will pay excellent returns in the near future. Two words: Youth and Talent. Our offense has both in spades. Enough so that we can spend the next few years almost entirely focused on the defense. I love where this team is sitting right now, regardless of how this season turns out (and I think it will still be a good season).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats why
I am always reluctant to go overboard and bash everything, and why I do support and defend what I see as much as I can. I tend to believe we are in an era of instant gratification. Nobody wants to work up to sustained success. I dont want 12-4 team on year and 8-8 the next. I want 10-6, 11-5, then 12-4, followed be seasons of 11-12 wins. That is more gratifying to me.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 22, 2008 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've got to agree.
Long term this is going to be a good investment. I think Shanahan is trying to build something that is going to last a good long time, maybe something that can be mentioned in the same paragragh with the dynasties. It’s just a feeling I have but this club has a solid feel like that.
These guys have character and character will out.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Oct 23, 2008 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Broncos
I agree with BHSMarine when he is concerned about how we got to 4-3. Those losses were self-inflicted. We weren’t dominated by better teams. That being said, I am happy to be in first place. Thank goodness the bye week is here after a game like that, however. That gives me hope. I also agree with a line that I read at the beginning of this post: “Shoot for the moon, but keep your expectations realistic”. This is a young team, and they will be great by next year at the earliest, but probably 2010 or 11 is when we will see a SB win at the earliest from this crew.
by PABroncofan on Oct 22, 2008 11:54 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great write up Styg!!!
;-) j/k HT.
Let me just say thank you HT for such a terrific write up. This is entirely applicable not just in the Bronco world, but in life. Keep your eyes on the bigger picture and things make more sense and become more manageable. I will admit that after monday night I wanted to jump of the bandwagon I’ve been on since I was 6. Obviously I will never do that, I bleed orange & blue, but I wanted to. It makes it worse that my best friend of 15 years is a NE fan for almost as long as I have been a Den fan. I taunted him alot throughout the week leading up. Now I get text messages at all hours of the day and night from him that simply say “41 to 7 WOW” lol…….friends suck.
Anyways, it is a privilege to have you as a cast member here. I generally look forward to your articles the most. MSM just kicks around the obvious stories meant to barely entertain. Your write-ups are informing and thought provoking. Not bad for a self-acclaimed pig. (dumb guy type pig, not P.O. type)
So thanks to you HT for your time and efforts here. I think I speak for everyone when I say it is MUCH appreciated.
Check out the website listed below...
by EastCoastBronco on Oct 22, 2008 12:29 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
Anyone else think that HT needs a Bud Light style “Real men of genius” commercial written for him? I do. I can almost hear that guy singing now….
Check out the website listed below...
by EastCoastBronco on Oct 22, 2008 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT already has one...
He is Captain Broncomaniac I believe…or am I getting him mixed up with someone else? :)
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. That was me in my younger days.
Never as big as Barrel Man or that disturbing leprachaun, but yeah. It was fun for a few seasons on local TV.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I LOVE those commercials!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly...
I can take a 41-7 beat down from a perennial winner…it was that 44-7 beat down by the perennial loser, Detroit, last year that was the most disheartened I have been since the 0-4 start in 1999.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru dat
That was a REAL low point.
The angriest I have ever been however, hands down, no contest, Pit vs Den AFC championship. A football game has never gotten me so reilled up. That game was one of the first times I was glad I live on the east coast so I cant go to home games. Had I been there I would have spent every dollar in my bank account on beer just to throw at Plummer. My god that man made me mad that day……lol.
I can take the 41-7 beat down. I can take my NE loving friend’s elbow-in-the-ribs text messages all week. I can handle all that no problem. What I can’t take is if the players go back into the last half of the season in neutral, coasting through. This trend of mediocre effort that I have seen from Den over the past several years is not something I recall ever witnessing before. It drives me nuts.
Check out the website listed below...
by EastCoastBronco on Oct 22, 2008 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are worth our salt....
…(or “worth our water” for you Dune fans), we will come out playing angry the rest of the season.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
or "worth your spice"
Frank herbert is entitled to my first born if he wishes. i love classical literature, but my heart has the softest of spots for groundbreaking scifi. Must be the martian in me.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 4:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait..
..for the sleeper to awaken.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 3:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
That Styg sure does write great articles! In fact, he writes good enough for two great writers!
(Write back to your friend. Tell him, “1st place in AFC West versus 2nd place in AFC East. Wow. Cheers.”)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 22, 2008 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I already tried to steal Zappa's identity
It didn’t work out. I have no plans to repeat the error. :)
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 22, 2008 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My identity is protected by Helicopter Ben...
Call me Greenback and throw me into the fire!!!
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 22, 2008 5:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Invasion of the MHR Staff Snatchers
Starring Styg as the alien. Eeek!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 3:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, I needed that
I’ve been in a funk for days. Getting beat wasn’t so bad, but getting beat so badly was. It seems when we get turnovers the air goes out of the team. We’re moving the ball and we get a turnover, and I think, that’s a potential score lost but at least we’re moving the ball. Then we get another turnover and suddenly we’re not moving the ball and it’s turning into another long game. That, and seeing the defense give up big play after big play was what was so disheartening for me. And then discovering that Champ was out for at least a month with out pass defense being so poor when he was in.
But you’ve put things into perspective. Thanks for that. We’ve lost some we shouldn’t have and won some we shouldn’t have, and our record is about where we expected it to be. It’s easy to see the over-our-heads games as the norm and expect us to play all games at that level, but that’s not realistic. You can’t take the wins as a given and then say if only about the losses. I’m worried about the next five or six games without Bailey, but I’m back on an even keel.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Oct 25, 2008 3:07 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Games I'm concerned about...
…CAR, BUF. Somewhat concerned – SD. Shouldn’t be too concerned – MIA, NYJ, ATL, KC, OAK, CLE.
Assuming we beat the teams I think we should beat, and lose to the teams that should be tough, we still finish 10-6. Even if we drop a game against the later 6, we might pick up a game amongst the former 3.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 25, 2008 3:30 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Meant as reply to Spock.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 25, 2008 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

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.500 should do the trick.
I think that if the Broncos can manage 4-4 thru there first half of the season, then they should be set up nicely for a playoff run. However, 4-4 leaves little room for error in the second half…5-3 would really be looking pretty good (and allow for the game off the Broncos like to take now and again).
by UnarmingMermaid