MHR University - System Issues and the 2008 Broncos
MHR University is a labor of love for me. I try to give the members of MileHighReport.com and those who link us from other sources (like Sports Illustrated) the very best in lessons about football theory and applied practice that I can. I have to admit when I have a bias though, and my biggest bias (other than being a fan of the Broncos) is that I am very geared towards strategy over tactics. In short, this means that I am not so much of a down in the trenches thinker, as much as an overall gameplan thinker.
As such, when I was a defensive coordinator at the scholastic level, I trusted my assistants to coach the important basics (tackling, stance, etc) and left them alone to do their jobs. I was rewarded by a head coach who trusted me to to run the defense without interference. I developed a fascination with systems run on both sides of the ball and how they matched up, and devoted much of my learning to that portion of football theory.
This was a fortunate development on my part. As we approach the halfway mark of the 2008 season, it is identity as a defense and identity on offense that seems to haunt the Broncos. I take a lot of pride in the fact that the wise and informed members of MHR were discussing defensive identity even before the season began. Stories, FanPosts, and Comments came out about what our defense would do. Show Blitz? Zone Blitz? 4-3? 3-4? We watched together as the season progressed, and scratched our collective heads trying to figure out what the system was. I admit feeling ignorant, trying to give answers where I had none. And then it happened. "There is no system!"
After an embarrasing loss in NE the obvious became apparent. Players said it, sportswriters said it, the MHR faithful said it. Let's take a closer look at what this means, and what can be done.
Styles
Here is the quote that tells it all:
"What type of defense are we?" Williams asked as the Broncos, despite the recent travails, hit the bye week with a 4-3 record and a one-game lead in the AFC West. "Are we a 3-4? A 4-3? Are we a finesse defense? Are we smash-mouth? Do we blitz a lot? Play zone? We've got to pick something and just run it and do it." D.J. Williams - Weakside Linebacker
Identity is an issue that goes to the heart of any endeavor involving teams or individuals with goals. The German army in World War 2 was a blitzkrieg offense. NATO during the Cold War held to a defense by attrition identity. Aerosmith is defined by the distinctive vocal sounds of their lead singer, harmonizations, and a stage prescence marked by entertainment. Pink Floyd is marked by the low tones of the lead singer and haunting, surreal lyrics. Garry Kasparov was marked by adventerous, romanticist attacks in chess, and a bias for the Carro-Kann defense as black. Batman is a detective with gadgets who can kick some butt and uses pyschological warfare.
In football, teams have core philosophies that players and coaches rally around. The Raiders defined rough play on the edges of the rules. The Steelers - smash mouth football. The Colts - Tampa 2 defense and a timed offensive spread machine. The 49ers and the West Coast. Denver and the Zone Block. The Pats - extreme defensive adjustments from game to game within the framework of their Fairbanks-Bullough defense.
In this light, the statements of D.J. Williams are very disturbing. "Who am I? Where am I? Why am I here?" are questions for philosophers, not football players in the heat of battle.
Blame
It is easy to overreact to a loss. As I wrote a couple of days ago, members of MHR overwhelmingly considered a 4-4 or 5-3 record after week 8 to be a good thing when asked in the pre-season. It was not only an expectation at the time, but a hope as well. Few people expected a win in NE. I also wrote that we might be a better team than JAX, but in terms of systems they negate a lot of what we do. While the loss to KC was tough, it was made up for in spades by beating SD (who is the only real contender for the AFC West with Denver). Our two big wins came against NO and TB, two worthy adversaries.
But MHR staff member Zappa noticed problems early on. He pointed out that our points on offense were decreasing. He said this early on, and his analysis was proven true. MHR leader Guru was quick to point out that turnovers on offense were killing us, and spilling over to the defense in terms of reduced production. He was right. Styg and I openly discussed our confusion about what kind of defense Slowik was building. All of a sudden, after week seven, Lee Rasizer, Michael Lombardi, and others are saying the same thing. Who are the Broncos?
Problems like this can be blamed on everyone. Some will point out poor calls by the officials (MHR University rejects such thinking. We get good calls and bad calls). Some will blame players (with some fans believing that the elevation of second and third stringers who couldn't win starts in the preseason may be the answer). Some will blame the coaches (a very few fans were calling for Shanahan's head after the first loss of the season!). Some will blame the front office (after praising them after the draft).
The truth is (except for the officials being blamed), there is enough blame to go around.
A Trip Down Memory Lane
Remember the draft? Moments before the draft, many fans of the Broncos had lists of players they wanted, and positions they wanted addressed.
First off the board was Ryan Clady. He was a great pick. He hasn't allowed a sack through 7 games, and his run blocking is better than average already in his rookie season (and improving).
After that, fans went crazy (at least at MHR). "Who in the heck is this guy?" and "Where is our DT pick?" where the mantras of the day. And then, something funny happened. Within 24 hours, all was forgiven. Members jumped over each other to praise the choices. "Hey, I took a second look at this guy, and he's a real steal!" Every player got this treatment. A wave of euphoria swept the Bronco faithful.
Clady, as mentioned a moment ago, was a terrific pick. Eddie Royal in the second round was a terrific pick too. Beyond that, the jury is out.
People know that Torain is coming, and expectations are high. Carlton Powell is IR for the season before even getting started, but folks have written that they are excited to see what he can do when he returns. Jack Williams has the unfortunate nom de guerre "JMFW", even though he hasn't yet done a "mf" thing yet.
My point is that we as fans can be very fickle. We criticize officials, but wouldn't dare try their job even at the Pop Warner level. We blame the players, though most of us would be carted off the field after one play. We blame the coaches, though none of us have any inkling of what it takes to be pro level coach. Never the less, we are fans and we have the obligation to speak out. The team is playing for our dollars and our approval, and so we do our best to observe and comment on the team as best we can, mood swings and all.
Let's set aside our fandom for a minute. Let's set aside our anger at the loss. Let's also set aside our division leading record. Let's instead focus on who and what we are as a team.
Identity
The offense during the Shanahan era has been succesful regardless of whether we've had Elway or Plummer. Why? Teams know that they will get a heavy dose of several things.
- First and foremost, Denver's strong reputation for 1000 yard+ rushers behind the most innovative OL blocking scheme in football.
- QBs who can throw on the run, and often use misdirection plays like the bootleg to humble a defense.
On a much more detailed level, Denver has used the zone block (one cut variation) as the primary system, and a west coast offense to help set up the run. High percentage completions to the outside edges of the field set up the runs up the gut, several of which break big.
Not this year. While Denver still zone blocks, they run much less. Everything now seems geared towards Cutler's arm, and the playcalling and play diagrams indicate more of a spread offense than the west coast. This places Cutler in the Marino mode of football - The QB will carry the team to the exclusion of all else. Cutler may be the second coming of Elway in Denver, but is this really the best identity for the team? It was the addition of Shanahan and T. Davis that allowed Elway to use his talents to the upmost.
This spread offense shocked the first two teams we played. But TB and KC played the correct counter (zone out the big plays), as did JAX (pressure and attrition, even without sacks). TB lost, but played a great game. NE did everything that JAX and TB did.
The lesson? Teams adjusted to our new identity quickly, and it no longer worked. The spread offense had a shock value, but isn't a quality pro level system as used by Denver. Denver tried to regain the identity against NE (sly move by Shanahan), but was killed when A. Hall fumbled twice. Denver was behind in points, and now had to abandon the run game and threw the ball up all night long, exactly what we knew would happen if Denver turned over the ball and got behind early.
There are two goals for a system to be effective. First, it must be executed better than the opposition runs their system. Second, it must not fall into a predictable pattern (even while staying in the bounds of a set system). Denver has gotten away from what it does best (violating rule one), and is predictable.
The defense is much more problematic. So absent is any indication of a set system, that even the smarter than average fans, writers, even players themselves do not know who to blame. Is it individual effort (failure to tackle, overpursuit, constantly missing simple one gap assignments), or is it coaching (players are confused because they don't know what to do from week to week)?
The absence of a system is a terrible thing for a young team. Many of the young players that have come to Denver this year have gotten an awful lesson. They haven't been taught a unifying theory of football. They are learning that everything changes from week to week, and the only constant is the individual player. What this leads to is a lack of "knowing one's role" on a team and within a system. It leads to poor technique. It also leads to self doubt.
A vet like Champ Bailey may not get this. In the Rasizer article Bailey blames team mates for atttitude. While attitude may be a correct evaluation, it may miss the underlining diagnosis. Why is there a bad attitude? Bailey's position as a CB will show next to no variation from system to system. But the front seven have nothing to go on. Take D.J. and his comments. D.J. has been moved to every position on the LB corps. Two years ago he played in a man based system. Last year he made the radical move to "contain", which is as different from classical "man and zone" programs as anything imaginable in football. This year we switched to, wait for, the absence of any definable system at all! If D.J. is confused, what do we expect from our rookies and guys new to the team?
Causes / My Experiences
BroncoMan (MHR member) makes a solid point:
Granted there are some very good ex-players who are coaches, but let’s face it most of the players in the league who were starters don’t make great coaches, I call it the Jorden effect. Most of the guys who were long term starters got by on their athletic skills and being better than the next guy, they aren’t classic students of the game...
I am tired of handing these coaching jobs to ex players and coaches sons, lets get guys that are coming up through college systems that have new ideas and aren’t yes men. Just my two cents.
Lombardi points his finger at the coaches, and makes the point that they aren't evaluating talent well on defense, and aren't developing the defensive players that they have. This makes sense too. If we aren't developing a certian type of offense or defense, then we're just picking players that we think are "good", not players that "fit". Look at teams like Oakland (Davis), Washington (Snyder), and Dallas (Jones). They spend hge sums of money for top notch talent, regardless of whether someone fits a system or not. Most years it is a failed approach. Lack of identity not only trickles down to how players perform, but trickles up to player management (evaluations and searches).
Back to Broncoman's comments; let me share what worked for me as a coach. I was never really an athlete. In every athletic pursuit I've ever undertaken I've been average. But I listened and I learned. I also found I had a knack for understanding human behavior and teaching (which led to jobs in each of those fields). I found that I could take complex systems (be they math, science, or the run contain) and break them down into bite sized pieces for scholars or athletes, get the information across, and motivate them to execute.
Take chess. I used to travel overseas and play (despite a rating that wouldn't garner much respect anywhere). I didn't win any major tournaments or matches as an adult, but I was playing for love of the game. But as a coach... As a coach I was able to build the most dynamic teams of both children and adults because I knew how to get concepts across. My middle school team played on an international level against the best teams from the former Soviet republics. Not one, but two kids I coached at a local YWCA went on to obtain scholarships to play in college. Several of the kids surpassed me quickly after a few years of coaching. Remember "Searching for Bobby Fischer", the movie with Ben Kingsley? In real life, Bruce Pandolfini is one of the best coaches going. On the other hand, he himself isn't one of the top players in the world.
Every place I have coached at, and every sport (ranging from chess, to debate, to football, to track, to wrestling) has been wildly successful except one, when I spent a year as an assistent coach for a wrestling program at a HS. There, the coach based his program on teaching from former wrestlers (many of whom were former students). It was a terrible program, and the kids didn't learn much. Every fancy move in the book was taught (for all of about a minute each), and fundemental principles of sound technique were tossed to the wayside. I came into the program as a coach who (as an assistant head coach in middle school) had been with a program that had (get this) never lost a team event. It wasn't me, it was the head coach (who also taught me everything about HS football coaching).
I wasn't used to losing, and I wasn't used to be shut out of the process. After a year, I had had enough and left. But I learned a valuable lesson.
The best coach I have ever worked for taught me that the basics come first. Along with the basics, the team needs an identity. Beyond that, everything else is just icing.
I was obsessed with identity (which comes full circle to my love of systems). My defenses were known for being fast and not wearing down. My track team (I coached distance) had a training program that was compared in the local press to Army Ranger training for its harsheness. My debate team (while good at research) was known for speaking points. My chess teams trained by attending USCF events, instead of just sitting around after school and playing (every player was required to read and do a report on "New Ideas in Chess" by Larry Evans). Our wrestlers had basic techniques down to second nature, and also never got winded.
I'm not bragging. In fact, I wasn't the head coach for any of the athletic programs. The credit goes to the kids who put forth the effort, and the head coaches who ran the programs. The head coach that mentored me ran the HS football program (he brought me up from the middle school), and ran the middle school wrestling and track/field programs.
I learned that identity builds cohesiveness. We can bring our own individual traits to the table (he was intense, I was calm), but we shared a common bond. Our job wasn't to build character, but to reveal it. Our job wasn't to win games, but to teach the kids to win games. Our job wasn't to out-coach the other team, but to beat them on the field with sound skills.
We taught the kids to play every play as if it was the only play that mattered. It was kind of Zen like. Sometimes the coach would blow the whistle for no seeming reason. "Really", he would ask "don't lie to me. Who's really running through their head everything we talked about today? Are you focusing on your stance and what you're about to do, or are you just going through the motions? Is this just another play in practice, or are you playing this drill as if your family's life depends on it?"
Ok, I'm clearly no professional coach. But I know schemes when I see them. I and several other sharp minds from across MHR have been trying to decode the defense. "Are we moving towards X scheme?" "Are we building in stages?" "Are we changing the base formation?" "What happened to last week's zone blitz?" And now we have our answer, and D.J. Williams and several writers have proven us right. There is no system. No, we aren't missing something. Even the players don't know what the program is.
Moving Forward
Thank God for the bye week. We can do one of two things.
We can continue on the current course and still have a respectable season. Shanahan is so brilliant that he can cover for injuries and other deficiencies. But we as fans won't have the confidence that we are a good team. We'll see the wins as hollow, and the losses as devestating. Worse, we'll have nothing to build on moving into next year.
Or we can make a move. Changing staff in midseason is a recipe for disaster. Adjusting the attitudes of the coordinators is very possible. It's what a head coach should do. Maybe Mike should say the following to his coordinators:
"We have the players that we have. We might make some changes for next year, but you go to war with the army that you have. I want gameplans and playbooks on my desk by tomorow morning. I want to hear what is going to be done on two fronts. First, I want to know how we are going to develop players as individuals so that they get better this year. Second, I want to know what we are going to do to improve as offensive and defensive units aside from individuals. In that light, I want to know what two things our team is going to be known and feared for on each side of the ball over the next next nine games. I also want an honest assesment of what areas we'll have to trade off for to accomplish those goals, because I realize that every system has exchanges.
I'm not asking you guys to win games here. I'm asking for something more critical. I want to know what this team is going to stand for. When you put team identity first, the wins will follow. I have players in the newspapers saying they don't know what they are supposed to run from week to week. That's not acceptable. Pick something, stick with it, and drill it into the ground. Players on this team can get demoralized by losses. I want them too. What isn't acceptable is that my players are demoralized because they don't know what is expected of them.
If we are losing games because guys don't execute, we'll get new guys. But if I start to believe that guys aren't executing because they can't define 'Broncos Football', I'm going to think the problem is higher up. But that won't be an issue because I'll have those reports tomorow and we're going to take care of this before it gets any further. I want the basics coached, and I want a team identity. Get back in the morning with your proposals."
It wouldn't hurt if Mike makes MHR mandatory reading for the coaches too. We aren't pro level coaches (though we think our advice doesn't stink). But we are the purchasing consumers. As Guru like to say, "Brand is important". Right now the financial base of the team, the fans, want our team to have an identity (a brand; something we can rally around and brag about from year to year).
What is our defense going to be known for? How about our offense? My vote is to bring back the run heavy zone blocking and let Cutler pick apart defenses with high percentage passes and the occasional deep throw. On defense, heck, pick something and get good at it.
Now, who wants an Orange Crush? A Steel Curtain? A Doomsday Defense? It doesn't have to have a neat brand name. But it needs to be recognizable (such as the physical play of the Jaguers. Most people can't name the defense, but they know it is physical).
Thoughts?
12 recs |
79 comments
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Comments
SUPERLATIVE WORK
HT,
You absolutely nailed it. Your ability to take a spectrum of ideas and garner them into one thoughtful piece of prose is remarkable. I think Shanahan should give this staff a call and have MHR be the “think tank”! Really impressive and well said.
I really want a physical defense. I miss Atwater, I want a team of football players who will punch you in the mouth, whoever it is and send that message that say’s “don’t try that again” and they listen, a la the Okoye Hit!
I also want a running back that scares a defense, a true top flight running back. No committee just one stud. As you mention I want the commitment to the running game.
I also want the players to realize that they are extremely talented obviously, they are in the NFL. You don ’t get into the NFL without talent. Kind of the like the PGA tour, they are all great, but the dedicated ones, the hard workers they seperate themselves from a pool of talented men.
Rod Smith, perfect example, became the leading all time receiver in Denver due to hard ass work. I think Shanny will polish our boys up, and if they put the time and dedication needed every Bronco fan will be really happy with the outcome.
Great post HT!
by Steve O' on Oct 23, 2008 4:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Steve
Your thoughts in your post on the issue are a good take on the problem too. That’s what I love about MHR. A lot of great minds, and we often come to the same conclusions.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 4:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Classic Line
Jack Williams has the unfortunate nom de guerre “JMFW”, even though he hasn’t yet done a “mf” thing yet.
Nice work HT!!
Playoff bound!
by 53guys on Oct 23, 2008 4:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I knew folks would like that line.
Thanks 53!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who gave JMFW his nickname?
Was it somebody on here?
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Oct 23, 2008 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it was from when he appeared on MHR Radio
in the preseason. I’m not sure who came up with it but that’s the first time I heard it and it stuck!
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 24, 2008 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome Post once again, HT
Hopefully, DJ calling out the lack of identity/scheme/system on defense will cause Shanahan to do just what you said. Pull in the Assistant Coaches for Offense and Defense and sit them down to explain to them what it is they are trying to do. Maybe this will light a fire under someone’s butt to get working on it.
And, the JMFW line was great as well!
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 23, 2008 4:15 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks DBF
I think a statement by a respected player like D.J. doesn’t go unnoticed by the coaches. I have a very strong “gut” that tells me this will be the focus at the next coaches’ dept meeting.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff
As for my take on an identity I agree with the run first offense with bootlegs and anything that allows Cutler to use his athleticism ala Plummer/Elway. I don’t mind a back by committee, but have a complete 2-3 guys. Right now Pittman is all they have, Young is hurt and Hall will be lucky to get touches again.
For a defense, like you said HT, anything would be nice. I like fast defenses that can use athleticism to make up for mistakes. A big safety that is not a liability in coverage would be nice. But we MUST get better up front or any corner not named Bailey is a liability.
by bhsmarine on Oct 23, 2008 4:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks bhs!
I like your suggestions. I’m of the same mind.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 1:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very, very interesting post
I was especially interested in your discussions of your coaching experience and the focus on identity. While I can’t even pretend I know the first thing about being in sports, I am a dancer and have been involved in many performances. I never really thought about it before, but it’s very true that having an ‘identity’ for the group makes the choreography so much more powerful and the dancing more fun to be a part of. The shows that are the hardest to do are when everything is really disjointed and there’s no central ‘point’ for the dancers to draw on. Even if the choreography is great, it doesn’t translate to the stage. Which all could work for a football team as well, I would guess.
by Squeaky on Oct 23, 2008 5:27 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Dancing is an athletic endeavor if I ever saw one.
I once met Baryshnikov (sic), and there was nothing “funny” about the guy. The guy was a specimen of toned muscle, and perfect physical control. At the performance he was in, there was a comedic portion where he “takes on” Marcel Marcou (sic?), the great mime. Those guys did unreal things, like sitting in a chair where there was no chair, then leaning back without falling. Bary beat Marcel at his own game.
I may be a grizzled old coach, but I don’t make fun of dancers. At least not from the Bolshoi.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
3-4
Another good article.. in my mind we should switch to a 3-4 permanently, in particular if the front office continues to favor smaller guys. I think they can draft linebackers but are clearly confused on what skills/size a DT or DE should have to make the jump to the pros. I think having more coverage options on the underneath routes gives us more options. As I mentioned in a previous post, until we get a guy on board who knows defence, we’re doomed to continue drafting the Foxworth’s, Paymah’s, and Crowders. Tell me you wouldn’t like those second and third rounders back.. Dre Bly has to go, I was disappointed to see the trade deadline pass without a sniff of improvement. Safety is obviously a disaster on this team. Let’s clear the books this offseason = D.Bly, Robertson has been invisible, Boss Bailey was a huge mistake (and if Champ takes it personally he can get traded too.) Let’s clear the books and trade up twice in the draft for three impact players on defence. One at each level, drafted by a new architect.
by quarterhorse on Oct 23, 2008 6:14 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree to a point
I personally prefer the 3-4 as well. It offers unpredictibility and is much more adaptable than a 4-3.
So far as drafting 3rd and 4th round picks “busts”; I feel that anything beyond round 2 is drafted with a focus on special teams, depth, or a project – the latter of the three being a big risk. It’s easy to be an arm chair quarterback and criticize picking Paymah and Foxworth but ignore finding the diamond in the rough with Marshall and Doom.
I also think “clearing the books” and going to the mattresses is a little extreme. While we don’t have a roster full of great players, we do have a lot of good players; they just need a purpose. While Dre is not my favorite, he is good. He is just picked on every game so his “mess-ups” are amplified. But really it’s not Dre’s fault, he has no safety help behind and can only play safe and not gamble – that is what Dre’s M.O. is. He’s a gambler.
I don’t know if Boss was a mistake either; I think he was low risk, high reward. We all know of his talent; we were all worried about him being hurt and he has spent a lot of time on the sidelines.
Good post though I can tell your very passionate about the Broncos’ shortcomings.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 23, 2008 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of thought
went into that comment nick and I appreciate it.
That’s ok with me. We’re playing for wins, not media publicity....HT 9/11/08
by firstfan on Oct 23, 2008 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the point Nick
Thought I’d sleep on that before responding.. no, I disagree still. Bly’s value should be measured the same as every other defensive player, can he tackle and/or does he have closing speed to diagnose then break up plays — Not even close on either account. Have you not noticed the lopsided pitches out of the backfield to his side game after game? Have you seen the way he gets totally eliminated on blocks? I watch the entire NFL, not only our Broncos. What I see are a lot of bigger stouter corners who can tackle, blitz, make the occasional interception.. how many picks does he have in the 20+games in Denver.. 2 or 3 maybe. While he’s not the entirely the blame he is perfectly symptomatic of the bigger issue = we need bigger guys, the recievers and tailbacks get bigger each year. (J.Williams is also to small) You watch how many yards Ronnie Brown runs for next Sunday. I think the Broncos have drafted very well offensively, but Dumervil is actually a situational rusher on any other team and outside of DJ who do we have to show for our defensive efforts of the last six or seven drafts.. While I would concede the low risk point on Boss Bailey, it’s the five year thing that bothers me, that money could have been better spent I think. I also have seen nothing but missed tackles and close but no cigar on staying with tight ends and tailbacks in the snaps he had. You ever twisted your ankle really bad, it’s never the same, it clicks and pops for years.. sorry Nick, I like your optimism but let’s call a spade a spade – defensive decisions on this team are dead last, #32
by quarterhorse on Oct 24, 2008 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic Post
I wish / hope someone in the Bronco’s organization does read your post and it inspires or motivates them. You have sucessfully put your finger on something that has been bugging me for a long time. It just seems as if something is missing.
I watch Colts games (last years) and I am always amazed at the openess of receivers. In fact it drives my dislike for the Colts: “How can they be so open?! It’s not even fair!”
I watch other defenses get interceptions and get frustrated at the “gift” that the QB just gave them: “Why can’t we get a present like that?!”
But the lack of identity is the perfect description of what the Broncos lack. I laughed as the commentators talked about Denver being a “run first” team during the first 3 games. But after those games, not only did the commentators not know what kind of identity we were; no one did.
The same defensively. Most recently there was the talk about the fastest linebacking corps in the NFL. Today – whoop-de-doo. We may but be who knows because they are not in position to capitalize on their strengths as a unit.
Regardless of what identity the Broncos choose, they need to choose one. We can argue all day over 3-4, 4-3, show biltz, zone blitz, Tampa 2, etc. While I have my own preference, each has an advantage; pick one and work with it!
The same is true offensively. The spread worked great until the KC game. We did try and go back to running in the NE game but we gave it up too early. Hall gave up 2 fumbles but big deal; we were only down by six, 1 possession. It seemed that those fumbles put the Broncos into full panic mode and you can’t blame them. 2 turnovers in 10 minutes is devestating. However, it is the coaches responsibilty to calm the troops, keep them in the trenches, and execute. Players should be ignorant of the score, and past drive; just go out and play great like we know they can.
I won’t blow your skirt up about how great your post was but really – knock out job man; 100% rec.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 23, 2008 6:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Nick.
I used to love the identity of having the three fastest LBs in the game (faster than many DBs according to many writers). Right now we’re just, just, just what?
Thanks for the props. But really, I don’t wear a skirt. It’s a kilt.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
I am getting smarter and smarter. Let’s hope someone gets these tips to The Mastermind. Quickly! All Ready!
by precisiontint on Oct 23, 2008 6:32 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate it.
But even the worst pro football coach who walke the Earth knows more than I do. I’m just writing what I think, but obviously I don’t know what the coach knows behind closed doors.
Thanks for the kind words.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another epic post HT! Thank you.
I have really been wrestling with this loss. I really believed that this type of devastating loss was behind us. I felt that the subtraction of "me first" players and the addition of character personnel would eliminate 35 point losses. I really felt we were developing (albeit rather slowly) a type of team persona. That persona was one of hard-nosed, smart, quick, agile players. I see now that that persona must come from the coaching staff and translated by the team leaders. It is obvious now that the coaches are not laying down that framework for a team identity. It is impossible for the team leaders to translate what they do not know.
I feel our coaches are doing a better job of that on offense than on defense. We seem to be cultivating a team personality of big, fast, tough and a desire to win. It needs much more definition. I love the run-first mentality described above. I will readily admit to not being in the heads of our O Line, but I know of very few O Lines who do not relish the prospect of firing off at a defender regardless whether it is a zone block or traditional blocking scheme.
The defense is a much larger problem and now that we have some serious injuries it will be harder to create that identity around fill-in and replacement players. I do not know what our identity might look like, but we better find one fast.
Thanks again for another great post. I sure hope to hell Coach Shanahan reads it.
That’s ok with me. We’re playing for wins, not media publicity....HT 9/11/08
by firstfan on Oct 23, 2008 6:39 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks First!
Coach Shanahan has bigger things to do than to read my post. He’s a great coach, and I’m sure D.J.s statement in the Rocky Mountain News got his attention. I don’t think D.J. will get any kind of repercussion either. D.J.s statement, as well as what the media is writing, will filter to the coaching staff from the front office. I’m sure Coach is going to shake some things up during the bye.
I’ve never seen the guy so mad as I did on MNF. Something is going to give.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 1:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack Williams has the unfortunate nom de guerre “JMFW”, even though he hasn’t yet done a “mf” thing yet.
love it
now to finish reading
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 23, 2008 7:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I predict someone will be using that line as a signature at some point.
I was really proud of myself when I cam up with it, though I thought it was just a cute “throw away” line. It seems pretty popular. I don’t have a problem with Jack Williams at all, and I look forward to seeing him play. But some people REALLY look forward to seeing him play, and I just think it’s kind of funny.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 23, 2008 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
great post
If Boss is so hurt why didn’t he have surgery sooner? I would rather look forward to seeing him next year than get my hopes up for surgery mid season.
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 23, 2008 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
will he be a bit
over his head on Nov 2? I have not actually seen him play seeing that no preseason games were shown here in SD.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 23, 2008 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's paid to play, so he'll be ready
he’s athletic enough to make up for some mistakes
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 23, 2008 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
we definitly get
trial by fire…it will really tell us a lot about him that night
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 23, 2008 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
being ready to play
and being a bit overmatched is another thing. I want to know what all the buzz over him is about. Like I said I have not seen him play. He got a MF nickname so I wanna know whats so special about this kid. I am hoping he could be the reason Bly is shown the door eventually
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 23, 2008 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope he turns out great though
and we can drop dre bly
by Sneaky Sean on Oct 23, 2008 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic read HT!
I feel famous! :)
Really, I cannot add to what you wrote. Spot on!
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 23, 2008 7:54 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff thanks for your time and effort ...
You just keep hitting them outta the Park HT.
by Shiiver on Oct 23, 2008 8:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks shiiv!
I’ll keep trying!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT you did it again
Hey HT, Great article. Thanks for sharing your insight. The question I have is why in the heck would a pro level organization fail so miserably in creating an Identity when it is the foundation for what they want to accomplish?? Seems like the ultimate kick yourself in the teeth act to me.
Did they just hire too many nobodys that have no clue how to create an identity? Maybe someone should email your article to them. hehehehe Just sitting here shaking my head at how totally foolish it is to try over and over again to make the team “better” when they haven’t done the most basic things to establish who they are.
Thanks again and great work
Randy
by SpiritGuy on Oct 23, 2008 9:29 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Even the best businesses will forget the little things and get punched in the nose. They fix those things, and move on. The good news is that this is being looked and and dealt with early in Jay’s career. We need the team to be firing on all cylinders when Jay hits his prime!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also a matter of the head coach's strengths
Shanahan’s forte is offense so he’s better at judging offensive talent and offensive coaches and creating and maintaining an offensive identity. His forte is not defense and he’s not so hot at evaluating defensive talent and coaches and creating a defensive identity. His one real effort at fixing the defensive problem by hiring a top defensive mind and just turning over that half of the team to him imploded. It started out badly and he panicked and didn’t see it through. I wasn’t a fan of the Bates system, but having made that choice I thought he should have given it at least a couple of seasons to show fruit. To Shanahan’s credit, he’s been more patient with O’Brien and our special teams, especially the coverage units, have shown definite improvement.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Oct 25, 2008 4:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 25, 2008 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going back to the basics is right....
They need stop trying so many different things. Narrow down the menu, focus in on something, and do that thing better than anyone else.
They should sit down in a coaches meeting this week and assess the talent on defense and pick a damn systems and stick with it. It’s been obvious they don’t have one now so it won’t be a mid-season change.
Offense just needs to find what they do best (turning over the ball doesn’t count) and perfect it like Indy and the passing to set up the run or…hell I don’t no. Still to depressed to think this out rationally. Hopefully the team recovers better than I have.
Great post.
by snofun23 on Oct 23, 2008 9:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't be depressed.
We’re right where many of us expected to be after 7 games this year, and with our depth on offense we have the ability to focus on the defense in the next reloading season. I still think the glory years start in ’09 or ’10. Hang in there!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT Awesome Post....
and recommended.
I am a coach too, and you have hit the nail on the head.
Without a coaching philosophy you have no coaching/ team/ program identity.
It is like this team is an extremely talented teenager that can do a lot but has not figured out what it wants to do first. The coaching staff seems confused as to:
1/ What to do with the talent on the offensive side.
2/ What to do with the lack of talent on the defensive side.
Hope we figure it out soon. I honestly believe we have some servicable toliers on defense that can help us, but that will be wasted until we work out what we want to do.
Offensively, we are wasting talent as we seem to have no overall season strategy.
Awesome posts everyone……damn, I sure learn a lot here!
by boydy2669 on Oct 23, 2008 11:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I learn a lot here too!
Lot’s of great breaking news and analysis at MHR. The beauty of it is that the members make it happen. Sure the staff keeps the site going, but members just like you are the heart and soul of the information exchange that takes place every day.
Thanks Coach!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why MHR is my home page.
You know what I think? Forget Slowik, Nolan, Phillips, Mora; all those guys. HT, you should march up to Shanahan’s office tomorrow, plop this down on his desk, and apply for the DC position.
Te MSM can have their Berman, Williamson, Lincicome (blech). I’ll take HT, Styg, Guru, Bear, mdierk, and any of you guys over anything the MSM puts out there. I feel like I know ten times more about not only the Broncos, but also about football and even life in general from reading this site.
Do you really think Shanny reads this, though? Coach, if you’re reading this, please tell Brandon Marshall to look up into the crowd next time he scores a touchdown in Kansas City. Thanks!
*Breathes into bag. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan. At least I'm not a Chiefs fan.
by papigrande on Oct 23, 2008 11:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Papi.
The truth is, it’s very easy for me to sit on my rear and be an armchair coach. I don’t know what is going on behind closed doors for one, and second, I would be so far out of my league that I would be laughed out of the job ten minutes into my first day.
For instance, what if the team had a system in lace, but some key injuries to key players has messed up the program? Or what if Slowik has us all fooled and has been building towards a system this entire time? I highly doubt either of these possibilities, but they illustrate that there are possibilities out there that we may not have considered.
There were times the local media second guessed our coaches (not often though, we had a winning program), and we wanted to tell the media what we were really doing but couldn’t. I’ll give that benefit to the Broncos, but I’m just writing about what I see and what I think.
Several folks in the Broncos organization read MHR, but they’re way too smart to take advice from a guy who never coached beyond the HS level.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about this last night
Offensively, I am not so worried about a lack of a system. We are still a zone blocking team and tried the spread in the first 3 games and tried an aggressive running game against NE but we just kept turning the ball over (5 turnovers, possible 35 point differential = no turnovers, tie game).
Defensively, I was wondering if it was really lack of a system or the presence of a multitude of systems. We’ve seen the 4-3, 3-4, show blitz, and I’ve seen some zone blitzes.
Tell me what you think of this HT – is this year a “field test” of defense? Is it possible Shanny “admitted defeat” defensively in the preseason and is now looking at his current personnel and seeing which system to run next year?
While I think that this is probably a stretch; it is some food for thought.
I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I do and I understand - Confucius
by nickt84 on Oct 24, 2008 7:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff Nick.
Really, I think that any explanation for why we aren’t seeing consistency of a system is a stretch, but I’m at a loss to explain it too. Your guess is as good as mine.
But let’s assume for a moment that the defense looked doomed from the start, so they are “trying things out” for next year. I’d have a real problem with this. First, it would send a message to the players and would kill morale (look at D.J.s statements). The staff would have to keep it a secret, but you just couldn’t cover something up like that. Heck, the sports media, blogs, and players are already upset. I can’t imagine the team would do it on purpose.
Second, the best plan (even with poor personnel grouping) would be to train for next year’s system now, not to try and figure one out.
And last, a system is often based on the coach’s philosophy and background. Formations are built around what kind of people that you have, but what system you run out of that formation is almost almost always going to reflect on the coach.
Still, I have no idea what’s going on here. I’m pretty confident that the staff is hunkered down figuring out what’s wrong.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another excellent post HT
Another good read! I’ve never played in organized scholastic sports so your posts really teach me a lot.
I like your balanced perspective. I agree about the inter-workings of the Bronco’s coaching and front-office. There is probably much we don’t know. However your posts and others here at MHR certainly give some great insight. It makes me appreciate that I am not a Detroit, KC, or Cincy fan! It will certainly be interesting to see how the season progresses.
Thanks for your time and hard work
by NYBronco on Oct 24, 2008 8:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks NY!
I’m glad I’m not a fan of any of those other teams too.
Think about. We have such a winning program here that folks get despondent even when the team has a winning record and leads their division! Most teams’ fans don’t get to lead their division or have a winning record. We get upset whenever we lose. Other teams take a few losses for granted. We expect success because anything less than 9 or 10 wins is so foriegn to us. Most fans would kill for the winning records we’ve had over the years, the SB appearances, and the two SB victories. Of the teams that have those things, many have to go back into the past to brag.
We really are blessed as Denver fans.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 9:20 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
We are blessed HT.....
but it can also be a curse as we are finding out now.
We are so used to well coached and professional teams that seeing this team throw away games and not turn up in others over the past 2 years drives us all CRAZY.
It is so foreign for our teams.
I think thats why so many of us are at a loss. Even when we had average teams in 2002 and 2001 we still made play offs.
Is this team worse than those teams?
Thoughts HT…thoughts guys?
I just dont see it, and it is not as if all the other teams in the NFL have taken quantum leaps.
There is just something wrong at Dove Valley at the moment, and it comes back to this post:
A lack of identity and a struggle to find one. This has to land in the laps of the coaching staff and front office.
The more I stew on it, the more I agree with it.
I think the players are disillusioned with the strategies and game planning coming out.
What gives crew?
by boydy2669 on Oct 24, 2008 9:39 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the quality of play in the NFL is pretty bad overall.
Item – The Colts are an elite team, but terribly inconsistent on offense this year.
Item – So the Pats are missing Brady. Outside of beating us, their vaunted defense isn’t so hot.
Item – The Chargers, clearly in decline.
Outside of the NYGs (who aren’t great compared to elite teams of the past), is anyone else in the NFC a full package? What happened to DAL, PHI, NO?
As great as the Titans are doing, I’ll bet the average football viewer couldn’t name three starters on the team. Same with the Bills.
Miami is beating “good” teams on any given Sunday. Miami!
This is a down year across the League. It’s no excuse for us though.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 11:24 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
luckily we are not average fans.
I started listing Titans and Bills through my head like crazy.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 24, 2008 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
HT AGREED....
That is why I am flummoxed with the lack of activity by the Broncos during the trading period.
We have/had as much chance as anyone because of this and could have been WAY ahead of the 8 ball regarding the development of our team.
This years NFL is a crap shoot, and a couple of creative trades could of helped to make our defense servicable. BUT….hard to trade when you dont know what that scheme is.
There were guys out there that would have helped us:
Jason Taylor
Cory Redding.
Jerome McDougle.
Anyway, I think we have missed an opportunity to have a real go at going deep into the play offs this year.
Ah well, I would be good with letting the youth play on defense and at least evaluate what we have in our young guys moving forward into roster formation for next year.
Your points just make me more confused and pissed off in regards to our front office and coaching staff. We seem to really be off especially on the defensive side.
Makes the need for a guys like Mike Nolan all that more vaild.
Great stuff HT!
by boydy2669 on Oct 24, 2008 12:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
who is out there
that was available that would have helped immediately? Nobody. If you bring in a player he has to learn a new system that our current defense is having problems adjusting to. Plus what are you willing to give up for a quxik fix? Me, nothing. Why rent a scrub when they probably can a get a better player and one who will be around longer via the draft. Thats one of the reasons you dont see many trade deadline deals in the NFL. For example look how long it took Chambers to actually be a legit force for the SD whiners.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 24, 2008 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One small quibbble.
Didn’t Chambers (and the pressure he took off of Gates and LT) turn their losing season last year into a deep playoff run? At the time SD picked up Chambers, I wrote that SD was going to be a match-up nightmare for a lot of teams, and it seemed (to me anyway) to be borne out.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know....I can't condone any compliments to the Chargers right now.
I have to side with BFSISD on this one. lol
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 24, 2008 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
when SD
got Chamber they were 3-3 Then SD was 2-2 in his first 4 games. For the season as a Charger Chambers had 35 receptions for 555. In his 6 games with Miami he had 31 receptions. IMO the reason the Chargers won their last 6 was cuz they played 5 teams with losing records at the time, Den, KC, Oak, Det, and Baltimore. The only team with a winning record they played at that time was Tennessee. So I would say they were the beneficiary of an easy schedule down the stretch. Chambers wasnt really a difference maker. It took him a while to become viable. In the SD win over the lions (51-14) he had 1 catch for 9 yards. Against Denver it was 1 for 8. So based off his numbers I will say he wasnt the threat they had anticipated. He probably is now though
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 24, 2008 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd disagree
Initially it took a while for him to learn the system, but fortunately he came in on a bye if I recall correctly. But you can’t just look at his numbers, he also drew the prime coverage away from V. Jackson so Jackson’s numbers also spiked after that; not to mention he really gained confidence and now he is the number one target. Chambers not only put up pretty big numbers, but was a catalyst that opened up all the other weapons, so much so that SD was able to beat the Colts despite injuries to LT and Gates. I would argue that would never have happened BC (Before Chambers).
Also I don’t where you are getting your stats from but against the Lions Chambers caught four passes for 69 yards and against Denver he caught four for 71 yards plus a TD. You make a good point about the ease of the Charger schedule down the stretch and it is fair to say he was less productive in his first 4-5 games. This year Chambers has been somewhat limited with a high ankle sprain.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Chris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 24, 2008 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much of Chambers production
is because he is a good pickup as opposed to he is complemented by Jackson and Phyllis…er, Phillip…?
Don’t know why I ask, except that Rivers puts up good stats without Chambers, and I suspect that Chambers is indeed overrated…
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 24, 2008 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have little concern for his production per se.
My argument when he was picked up was that teams now had a viable WR that they would have to cover, freeing up Gates and LT to do their thing. It’s reasonable to assume the guy would start off a little slow, and also that his role was to take CBs like Champ so they aren’t covering Gates. To me Chambers is like a powerful DT. He doesn’t have to get the good stats. He occupies the other team so that others can get the glory.
SD didn’t pick the strength of the teams they had down the stretch. It’s a matter of opinion, but I don’t believe in “backing into” playoffs. If SD was terrible, picked up a new guy, I predicted it would change the season, then they went for a deep playoff run, I’ll accept any credit I can get! lol
I stand by the assertion that I made at the time that Chambers to MIA was a brilliant move for their season. But I’m hardheaded too.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
I have to say he seems to drop a few more balls than Vincent Jackson now. On the other hand our average points before Chambers was about 22.5, after it was about 27.5; now admittedly they were weaker opponents and the turnover differential was higher, but the offense did all right even in the post season against good defenses. This year he has only 11 receptions, but 5 are for TDs and he has been out the past two games.
There certainly is some symbiosis though; he makes Jackson, Rivers and Gates better, and conversely he has a better QB, not to mention the same QB every week; something he didn’t have at Miami. You can make the argument that R. Moss is overrated because his stats go down when he doesn’t have a premier quarterback, the truth is that Moss and Brady feed off each other.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Chris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 24, 2008 10:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
first off on his numbers I mixed up his rushing stats and his receiving stats on those 2 games. No what I mentioned was related to the regular season. My entire point is he was not an immediate impact upon getting him, even with the bye week to help out. Now he was better than anticipated in the playoffs. I still can remember all the complaining on how he was not as effective down the stretch and particular in the Jax and first Tenn game. Now when gates got hurt he had to be more of a viable threat and in the playoffs he was.
We are not going to agree on this, but regardless of what happened in the playoffs he did not come in and become an instant impact player as I stated. I will stand by this to my last breath. Its nice to have a civil conversation with a charger fan again.
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 24, 2008 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem
saying it was three or four games before he became an impact player; but in the Jacksonville and first Tennessee games he was up over 90 yards in each game. I will say that it did make a big difference to the Bolts down the stretch and I believe it was a terrific midseason move, but I am happy to agree to disagree there.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Chris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 24, 2008 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
I do however think he was an important player in the playoffs though.
I just wonder if he is better having Buster Davis on the opposite side of him, rather than VJ. I like Davis a lot more than Jackson, and its just a matter of time until he breaks out.
This week is intruging Brees v. Rivers. Do you think SD made the correct choice on Qb? I do. I think Rivers (as much as I dislike him) is a better QB than Brees and has more upside. I must say I am surprised and impressed on how he has come back from the knee injury
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 25, 2008 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the first season
I thought they made the right choice. Granted he has a lot of talent around him; but he also performs under pressure. The one thing I didn’t like last year (his arm wasn’t quite strong enough to hit the deep play) he corrected this offseason with time in the weight room. I think he will be our quarterback for the next 5-10 seasons if he stays healthy.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Chris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 26, 2008 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Rivers upside comes in his football instincts. As smart of a player as Brees is, he isn’t half the crunchtime QB that phyllis is….
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 26, 2008 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except on Sunday when Phyllis screwed the pooch.
incomplete pass…delay of game…incomplete pass…timeout…interception…….game over. Moron!
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
by Tim Lynch on Oct 27, 2008 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't he also throw in a
delay of delay of game when he spiked the ball on the delay of game penalty?
I thought that should have been a dead-ball Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty since it happened after the original delay of game call.
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
"I love your analysis of our team. Its kinda like watching a spider monkey trying to figure out a jar of peanuts.. you know whats going on.. you know whats in there, but to actually figure it out, is just a bit beyond your mental skills..."
- Bronco Dano
by DesertBroncoFan on Oct 28, 2008 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you Chargers want McCree back? What if we say please?
I have patience with young players (Moss, Thomas, etc.) but an experienced player like McCree or Webster that can’t execute needs to get moved. DaBolts, don’t be rash, wouldn’t you guys like to have McCree wearing light blue again?
by Arctic Bronco on Oct 26, 2008 5:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
I don’t think so. I liked McCree a lot when he was here, he helped our secondary play as a unit; but there is just no way to coach speed; I think that is his main problem now. Weddle looks good, but Hart is getting to be a real liability in coverage now, broncfanstuckinsd tried to tell me that but I wouldn’t listen.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Chris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Oct 26, 2008 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey SD....
Excellent points.
I was talking more at the beginning of the season and after the final cuts of pre-season. There were some guys we could have looked at.
I will be honest, I was hoping we went after Taylor as he still had gas in the tank and would have been a good role model and leader for our young guys.
That horse has run its race, and I would like to see us play our young guys.
If anything, it is going to be a VERY INTERESTING 9 weeks.
Thanks!
by boydy2669 on Oct 24, 2008 12:28 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
oh
I agree. I thought you meant at the deadline.
It would have been interesting to see Taylor here. He sure would not have hurt the pass rush, if you want to call it that.
I think the team should focus on scoring as many points as possible and letting the kids play on the defensive side of the ball
somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong
by broncfanstuckinsd on Oct 24, 2008 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
TOTALLY 100% AGREED....
I think in the overall development of the team this is the way to go. It is not like we are really going to lose anything in the way of play.
Let the offense have its head and lets god own swinging.
The enthusiam of the youth could be a great glue that bonds this team and turns them into a team heading in the right….and the same…..direction!
by boydy2669 on Oct 24, 2008 12:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
I didn’t know what you meant by “God’s own swinging”, until I realized you meant “go down swinging”! lol
Now I just need to know what you mean by the offense having head?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrific post, HT
Your analysis is one of the best things about MHR…. I never fail to have my perspective expanded. Some great comments too. Thanks, all.
"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason."
The Shanahan
by Broncs Cheer on Oct 24, 2008 2:22 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
But what’s up with the avatar? Don’t show up to practice like that again! lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2008 7:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Identity is
a huge issue yes, but the defensive front needs some serious overhauling. The lack of rush with the front four causes serious issues for the defense as a whole. Look at every game the Broncos have played in this year and not once have they even pretended to have a rush with just the front four. This in turn causes the Broncos to bring more than just the four and it leaves serious holes in the defense. An even then they are not good enough to bring enough pressure to compensate for the holes they are leaving. Why are the Giants good, why are Ravens good(on defense). Look at their fronts. That is the primary issue behind the identity amongst others
by t-bone on Oct 25, 2008 12:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Most of my critical comments...
…before this story on identity have focused on weakness at DT as being the key problem on defense. I agree.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 25, 2008 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pay me now or pay me later
Seymour of the Pats was a top 10 draft pick (#7?), Wilfork was a steal at about #21. At the MNF game, young Jarvis Moss was the only Broncos lineman drafted by Denver in the first round, so you get what you pay for. Many years of ignoring D-linemen in the draft puts us in this situation.
by Arctic Bronco on Oct 26, 2008 5:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

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