i believe, was replaced by spencer larsen as the starting fb. we need to get the power running game going, and this may help. to have a fb such as hillis, and a blocker developing like larsen, can only add to the defensive woes of opposing dc’s.

I was under the impression that Hillis attended a funeral and that was why Larsen started last week. I can’t remember where I heard this but I thought I read it somewhere.

running behind graham and larsen. can this be the answer to the 3rd-2, roll-out right, incomplete pass play-calling i have come to despise? power-running, baby

RBs are smaller than at least 7 of the defensive players who bang into them, they have short shelf lives. I really like what Young and Hall bring, but they are both a bit slight and get dinged up frequently. Pittman is in an ideal situation for his skill sets, but he is one of the oldest RBs in the league. A run happy team like Denver needs a new RB like the Train to groom almost every year.

As i shared last night would be to have not only the franchise back, but also the Hydra in place, maybe unleash a constant attack of the Hydra to make the defence guess in the first quarter…..then spring Torain spordadicaly thought the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarter….teams will already be gameplanning against the Hydra for the full time, but then throw Torain in a few series and he’ll bowl the opposition over, keeping the defense on its heels. What would be the biggest threat would integrating the no huddle offense in with Torain, that way the opposing D can never substitute fresh line man, and Torain can just bowl them over

All in all, it will probably be a mix of the two systems, an even bigger hybrid

First, if Torain is as good as the coaches think he is, then we need him. We still don’t need to use him as a franchise back.

Torain can bring a lot to the table. Young and Hall are good, but subject to getting dinged up. Torain’s injury to his elbow was a fluke (not a common kind of injury for a RB). While Pittman gets us short yardage, Torain can be the primary back in a rotation. He can get consistent yardage, keep us on the field, and wear down opposing defenses. Young or Hall can come in as change-ups and pick up the “glory” yards.

With Selvin Young out, thus puts ENORMOUS pressure on Michael Pittman. Andre Hall is a straight ahaed runner, with little elusiveness. Even in KR, Andre rarely finds a returning seem and tends to plow into the pile. This works if you are a BIG running back, but not at his size. He has decent speed, but is not shifty at all.
pittman is more pwoerful and more elusive than Hall but he has not carried the load for a couple of years.
This is why we need Torain back, We need someone that can carry the load, who is a tough one cut runner that then opens opportunities for our slasher back in Selvin Young.
Im all honesty, I think the backfield we see this year wont be here next year….I hink our primary Running backs will be Ryan Torain, ANthony Alridge with Peyton Hillis our 3rd down back.

So when you ask if we need a franchise back…i say, YES! The committee approach has not won us any Super Bowl titles…the franchise back has won us two Super Bowls.

I think football players just get put on the field in different situations until all of their strengths and weaknesses are known about, and that the coaches need to use each player to the best of those abilities.

Make no mistake, regardless of how much Shanahan may value a “Hydra” if Torain is running well, he is going to be fed the ball, as many times as he can show he can handle. Same with Pittman, same with Young, same with Hall.

If there is one caveat to this, it is that Shanny understands the short shelf life of RBs. Like Arctic points out above, Denver historically has had to approach the RB position like a perishable commodity, addressing it all the time. Shanny will go out of his way at this point to not OVERWORK a back. Overworking a back isn’t a static quantity from back to back either. It is a function of touches, hits and production, and an overarching sense of a player’s current psychological state that the coaches are now taking extra time to watch, and it is different from one back to another, just as each back’s physique and mindset are different.

I really don’t think the coaches plan on the hydra or franchise “approach” at this stage. They just prepare all the players, rewarding the hardest worker or most productive with a spot at the front of the line, and then monitor their productivity and health as the game progresses. It is a very organic process. Keep in mind too, that rotation of backs, of ANY player is just fundamental football theory. If you can give guys a rest, you should.

Now, to the deeper significance of JonT’s question, I think that all else being equal, teams will tend towards playing franchise backs. You only get 11 offensive players on the field at a time, it makes sense that you want the most talent per player that you can get. This indicates that a franchise back is more valuable than a “Hydra” component back (and assuming that spelling, or resting, the franchise player is a viable option). Could you have a “Hydra” loaded with franchise talent? Possibly, but not for long, since the salary cap leavens that kind of positional hoarding and forces teams to share the wealth.

IF Torain is what everyone’s expecting him to be, he will be a “franchise” type back. Shanny said directly this summer that he likes having the “one guy” who can carry the load, so it’s clear that’s what he would like to have in Torain. Obviously, there will be guys there to give him a breather, but not cutting big time into his carries.

IMHO, having one guy carry the load makes it tougher for defenses: they can’t look at who’s in the backfield and narrow down the potential play calling. For example, see Young in the backfield, you can be fairly sure it’s not going to be a dive up the middle. Or at least you don’t have to worry about it as much. With a guy like Torain, you have to be prepared for every kind of run, inside or outside, on every play.

that I think could help clarify the thinking in this conversation, we need to be careful about defining our terms.

Franchise Back: A RB who is both the primary back in a rotation and the most talented back in the backfield. Also characterized by his talent being comparable to the best of his contemporaries.

Primary Back: A RB who receives the largest workload in the RB rotation, as defined by carries.

Obviously, a primary back doesn’t have to be particularly talented, he only needs to have the elements required of a player to carry the ball a lot, typically a larger, more powerful back.

For our rotations, pretty much since TD with the exception of Clinton Portis, we have simply had a lot of not exceptionally talented backs. The laundry list of backs who we have featured as the primary, from season to season, from week to week, and worse, from play to play even, is proof of exactly that fact, nothing else. It certainly isn’t indicative of a changing philosophy about running the ball.

The tricky part of all of this, was that in the course of trying out all these different backs, Shanny learned the value of complementing running styles to eachother. Specifically what he learned was that their is a distinct line of causation in the running game that a properly formulated rotation could exploit.

This line of causation has been described clearly by HT: your primary back carries the ball a majority of the time. This results in an effect on the defense. A rotational back should be used sparingly to capitalize on this effect when the effect is most pronounced and will reap the largest rewards. It is simply a philosophy for not “throwing away” the reps of the rotation guy, and instead maximizing their potential effect.

This line of causation has been described as “the committee approach” but that term is also used as a catchall for any situation where a team doesn’t have a clear primary back. Applying the same term to a situation where a team uses multiple backs in a clearly specified way just makes things confusing. The line of causation has been called by HT and others “the changeup” as well. I believe “comittee” best describes the dysfuntional situation of a team with no clear primary back, and “changeup” best describes a team following this specific line of causation. I intend to use the terms in this manner from here on out, and i encourage others to do the same.

I am with HT in thinking that the return of Torain, if he runs well, will allow us to execute a “changeup” approach to the running game: Torain will be a clear primary back, with Young and Hall battling it out to be the rotational back, while Pittman is a “special circumstances” type of back, a guy that you are glad to have on your team in terms of depth and experience, and who may be asked to participate in any number of ways based on his skills alone.

Without Torain, we are a “committee” system, with no clear primary, though Young has been given the benefit of the doubt. The fact that Pittman is being considered for increased reps is proof that Young didn’t do enough to execute the role of a primary, and now we check on the next guy in the lineup.

I also agree with others that the healthy returns of both Torain and Alridge are a much more ideal and hopefully effective version of the “changeup”, being much starker contrasts than anything we currently have. Pittman, Hall and Young may be competing for the role of third back next year, and hopefully they do, because that is a very good thing.

that he’s planning on practicing next week!

He probably won’t make the Monday Nighter against the Patsies, but he’s getting close!

If anyone can pick out RB’s its Shanahan. If he thinks torain is the real deal, another RB in the TD mold, then I will side with Mike. I dont think Torain is gonna come in and steal carries from Pitt, and Hall. SY is already hurt, can this guy stay healthy? I dont think he is long as a Bronco. He is good but he cant stay healthy. Torain by the end of the year will be the guy getting 20+ carries as Denver heads into the playoffs

I think we need to see Torain play before we annoint him as the next TD. I know Coach Shanahan said he has that type of talent, but let’s see it on the field. We have not seen the bottom of the barrel of Shanahan/Bates running game schemes this year. The presense of Hillis, Larsen, Graham, Mustard and Pittman make me think we will have a very real power run component soon.

Just a thought – If Torain turns out to be the primary back (Shanahan knows RBs) we then have a speed back in both Hall and Young and a power back in Pittman, with power options in HIllis and, perhaps, Larsen. The blocking ability of Larsen/Hillis will help the run a great deal. Add to that the O line developing in the run block game and it’s one powerful offense.

And then there’s the passing :D I’d like the concession selling ulcer treatments to opposing DC’s, please.

We could have a dominating back field…..and we have AA coming back next season. I am as high on Alrdige as I am on Torain.
A power running game with our pass offense….look out!

he hasn’t seen a running back like Torain since Davis. That is good enough for me.