Oakland Raiders 31 - Denver Broncos 10 -- More Broncos Mistakes Lead To Crushing Loss

by John Bena (aka TheSportsGuru) on Nov 23, 2008 5:12 PM MST in 2008 Post Game Notes Comment 79 comments

For Everything Raiders Related, Check Out Silver & Black Pride

Final

Category	Broncos	Raiders
Score	10	31
Rushing Yards	115	158
Passing Yards	204	160
Total Yards	319	318
T.O.P	27:56	32:04

Games like today challenge your fandom. They challenge mine as well. The Broncos got beat, no, blown out by a hated rival, an Oakland Raider team that is as low as low can be. On the surface the defense will get killed, and much of it is deserved. The injuries are starting to take their toll, and the Raiders made some plays. What we have learned in 2008 about this Broncos team is simple -- they simply aren't good enough on defense to make up for mistakes on offense.

We have talked all year about the team being built around Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and the offense. They need to make big plays and protect the football. When they have, the Broncos have won. When they haven't, well, you have games like today. The Broncos held the Raiders to a 3-and-out on their first possession and took the ball all the way down the field. What happens next has happened in other games this year. Games in Kansas City and against Jacksonville. The Broncos fumbled the football. Red Zone turnovers will kill you. A mis-direction play, the Broncos got a bit cute on a run call to Peyton Hillis and he and Cutler couldn't complete the QB/RB exchange.

Some might say that a play like that is ok because it leaves the Raiders in bad field position. It isn't a good thing. Turning the ball over in the red zone is never a good thing. It turned out to be a sign of things to come. There is plenty of blame to lay everywhere -- questionable play calling during most of the 2nd quarter, a special team's TD allowed, a close second to red zone turnovers in terms of being an absolute no-no, and of course, the Matt Prater misses. They were longer field goals, yes, but in a game like today's, when the game is close, each mistake you make is a confidence boost to the opponent.

The Broncos gave the Raiders all sorts of confidence today and the Raiders went out and won the football game, plain and simple.

It's too early to think about next week, and at this point, who really wants to. Again this year, the Broncos will have all off-season to live with what happened against Oakland, and a bitter taste it is. The Broncos need to regroup and think about what they want the rest of this year to be. The Chargers have the opportunity to gain a game tonight against the Colts, so much of what happens the rest of this year likely depends on that result.

Talk about the game here, and MHR Radio Post Game is coming up at 7:30.

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Comments

First game all season Jay didn't have a TD pass.

He had a nice streak going. Oh well. I hope we at least learned to not look over teams. See everyone at MHRR!

If Mike Shanahan were a hotdog, would you eat him? I know I would. Hell, I'd eat him twice.

by papigrande on Nov 23, 2008 5:16 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Disgusting.

This takes over from the Chefs as worst loss of the year.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 23, 2008 5:20 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe this will revive the rivalry

by isiddiqi on Nov 23, 2008 5:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Two points

1) When we lose, we lose ugly. When we win, we just barely hang in there. This team is learning how to win as much as anything else.

2) This was really the first loss for our young guys like Woodyard, larsen, Bell, etc. Our defense got some valuable lessons today, and unlike our old defense, I think these guys will actually take the lesson to heart.

Bonus Point) These guys can learn to hate the faders after today.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Yes and yes

Learning to win is learning to be afraid of everyone, even teams you’re “supposed” to beat. And I agree that our young defenders might be learning that lesson faster than some of our offensive players. They played better than the offense but eventually wore down.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 5:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Guru's assesment is dead on accurate.

The Broncos need to read it.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Nov 23, 2008 5:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

They shouldn't hate the raiders.

They should hate their own actions. We lost this game; gave it away. I am clueless as to what we were thinking on some of the playcalls.

I’m really hating the offensive playcalling. Really, really hating it (I feel an MHR story coming on).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Nov 23, 2008 5:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely.

And you should write that story. Do you know how many double moves we ran this week with Royal? None. After he torched tham in week one. There’s something wrong with that.

If Mike Shanahan were a hotdog, would you eat him? I know I would. Hell, I'd eat him twice.

by papigrande on Nov 23, 2008 5:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Did he not make any double moves at all

or did he just not get open (or Cutler not see him) when he did? If the pass doesn’t go to a player
we basically don’t see what he did unless we’re in the stands focusing on him. The TV camera always follows the ball. I’m not saying he did make double moves. I don’t know for sure one way or the other.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought we should have passed more in the intermediate zones

Too many homerun balls, particularly since Cutler wasn’t accurate. But there’s also the fact that when the o-line consistently wins the battle on passing and running plays the playcalling looks a lot better.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 5:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

If we really disowned the Raiders,

this loss shouldn’t hurt any more than the others. We have proven that we can’t win when everything is going our way heading into the game. Think anyone will predict us to win next week? Against the mighty Brett Favre? Hell, no. We’re the underdog again, and I think I like it.

If Mike Shanahan were a hotdog, would you eat him? I know I would. Hell, I'd eat him twice.

by papigrande on Nov 23, 2008 5:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

We certainly seem to play better

as the underdog

by Stuman on Nov 23, 2008 5:27 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Bar Tab

I couldn’t watch the game at home, so I had to go to the neighborhood bar in Bloomington to watch the game. I’m sending my bill to Shanny. If he’s not gonna prepare the team for a division game, he should also pay for my beers/burger

by birkhead on Nov 23, 2008 5:26 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I know its not game related

but there is going to be a thread posted for MHR Radio right?

by metal_militia on Nov 23, 2008 5:26 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

yep, 7:30 est the thread will go up

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

isnt it already 7:30?

by metal_militia on Nov 23, 2008 5:30 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I am at 3:30 where I am at

so I think so. He must have meant 7:30 mountain….

silly time zones.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I need to find an alternate reality

Time to adjust the time-space continuum modulator and find a reality where the Broncos didn’t lose to the hated raiders at home.

The future looks so bright that we're going to need blue and orange sunglasses!

by Arctic Bronco on Nov 23, 2008 5:26 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

7:30

MST, correct?

The Adventures of King Royal and Phyllis The Jester

by Greyson on Nov 23, 2008 5:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

7:30 MST is 8:30 CST, no?

Or is he doing it in EST? I’m confused…

If Mike Shanahan were a hotdog, would you eat him? I know I would. Hell, I'd eat him twice.

by papigrande on Nov 23, 2008 5:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

7:30 MST

is 8:30 CST. But, I can’t tell if it’s 6:30 MST or 7:30 MST

The Adventures of King Royal and Phyllis The Jester

by Greyson on Nov 23, 2008 5:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I assumed he meant

7:30 ET

by Stuman on Nov 23, 2008 5:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

5:30 MST……….6:30 CST….etc… :-)

by Stuman on Nov 23, 2008 5:30 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

7:30 EST

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:30 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

or MST :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

So, 8:30 EST?

I need it spoon fed

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

it is up now

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

must be

its currently 5:38 in denver

by metal_militia on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Or 6:30 MST?

The Adventures of King Royal and Phyllis The Jester

by Greyson on Nov 23, 2008 5:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

The Broncos weren't as focused as the Raiders

including Cutler, who overthrew and underthrew several long passes, two of which could easily have gone for TDs. We let the Raiders gain confidence, and as the game wore on the battle in the trenches tilted more and more in their favor. It’s the same pattern we’ve followed in other losses. Early on we move the ball easily but sabotage ourselves with mistakes. Then we start having trouble moving the ball. These young guys have got to realize that you always have to be up. You have to be afraid of every team. When we are we play well. Offhand I don’t see how we can beat the Jets next week, so maybe we should be favored.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 5:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

patterns

the pattern is so obvious it almost stunning.

I have a post coming up this week on Cutler’s INTs. They tend to be the “seal the deal” variety, but they always occur in similar circumstances.

I called his INT int he thread today because the lead up to it was textbook Cutler turnover time, based on his recent history. A longer term project is to look further back for similar signs. Like Brett Favre, this might not be something he grows out of. It might be part of his QB DNA…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope not

I hate turnovers, nothing is more aggravating to me in a game.

by Stuman on Nov 23, 2008 5:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he probably has a better TD to INT ratio

than Favre had at this point in his career, but I haven’t actually looked it up. I think he’s a gambler but not so much as Favre, and I think he’ll get better. I’m looking forward to that post and your explanation of “textbook Cutler turnover time” and whatever other insights it might contain.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 5:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

No Heart!

Following the Broncos this year has been like a emotional roller coaster. However today, we simply played with no heart or since of urgency. Jay Cutler looked like he was just going through the motions. Someone need to wake this team up!!!

by EB3 on Nov 23, 2008 5:28 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

The playcalling today

Was awful! Jay was completely off and we were forced to ditch the running game early, even though it was working.

The Adventures of King Royal and Phyllis The Jester

by Greyson on Nov 23, 2008 5:29 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Receivers didn't do many favors for him...

lots of drops

by donbok1 on Nov 23, 2008 5:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I noticed that.

BMarsh dropped a couple of long balls and Eddie dropped some big gains too.

The Adventures of King Royal and Phyllis The Jester

by Greyson on Nov 23, 2008 5:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe we lead the league in dropped passes

and Marshall is a major culprit early in games. TO has the same problem, and it may be either pyschological or style based. i am guessing psychological.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Nov 23, 2008 5:34 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

We do

He doesn’t know anything but 100 percent
- Shanahan on Larsen

by broncobear on Nov 24, 2008 2:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

The chargers will not win tonight against the colts .Dont see the colts slipping now.

by broncosfaninphilly on Nov 23, 2008 5:31 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

How can a player run almost half of the football field with no helment raiders#55 and no penetaly is called?

by broncosfaninphilly on Nov 23, 2008 5:36 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

yeh, that was weird?

What happened there?

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on Nov 23, 2008 5:38 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

It didn't affect the game.

If he didn’t take it off on the field I’m nit sure it’s a penalty.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

No i didn't affect the game, but what happened?

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on Nov 23, 2008 5:40 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

It affected me

by broncosfaninphilly on Nov 23, 2008 5:41 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by ButteBronco on Nov 23, 2008 9:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

And even if they had called it,

there was already an unsportsmanlike backflipping penalty on the play so ti would have been defacto declined…

"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason."
The Shanahan

by Broncs Cheer on Nov 23, 2008 5:40 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

he could have put it back on also he was laughing all the way down the field

by broncosfaninphilly on Nov 23, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Just some fun to lighten the mood.

Thus far, if my numbers are right, Mrs. Guru continues her domination for the picks. Before the Sunday and Monday night games, here’s what I have so far:

This week:

Guru 6 points, Styg 8 points, HT 9 points, Zappa 8 points, Mdierk 9 points, Mrs. Guru 10 points.

Total for season so far:

Guru 107, Styg 109, HT 114, Zappa 112, Mdierk 114, Mrs. Guru 118.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Nov 23, 2008 5:36 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

You can look back...

at any number of plays in this game and play the “what if” game, but one I’m fixated on for some reason is BMarsh’s drop toward the end of the first half on a long first down throw. Marshall seemed to have trouble all day long getting separation, and on this throw he didn’t have much, but Jay put the ball out there where he could catch it, and Marshall, instead of giving his all and going down to catch the ball, stayed on his feet, leaned over, and had it bounce off his hands. If Marshall is really one of the top receivers in this league, I flat need more than that from him. (In fact Eddie Royal gave a much better effort on the very next play on a ball not as well thrown…) I’d really like him to be able to get open against Chris Johnson or Jackson or whatever, but I NEED him to give up his body to make that catch. It would have put us on our way to quite possibly taking a halftime lead (Prater’s shaky right foot put aside for the moment); instead we’re three and out and Johnnie Lee is off to the races….

"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason."
The Shanahan

by Broncs Cheer on Nov 23, 2008 5:38 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I think that's the one that was underthrown

If Cutler had hit him in stride it could easily have been a TD.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Nov 23, 2008 6:34 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah it wasn't a great throw...

but definitely catchable….

"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason."
The Shanahan

by Broncs Cheer on Nov 23, 2008 7:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember that play.

It was like he wanted the TD so bad, that he didn’t break-stride and make a play on the ball. The offense had a big play mentality today instead of simply taking what’s there. Part of that is coaching (Shanny and Bates are very aggressive), and part of it is youth (Bates and all but four contributors are in their first three years), and it’s these tendencies that drive the patterned inconsistency mentioned earlier. These young guys are always pressing and I think they will grow out of it.

by ButteBronco on Nov 23, 2008 9:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

D-not

Raiders putting up 30!!!! You gotta be freaking kidding me! All my Raider fans are starting to talk crap…I guess Raider fan is going to base their season off this one game. Whatever!

by EB3 on Nov 23, 2008 5:40 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

MHR Radio post is up

by metal_militia on Nov 23, 2008 5:43 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

waste of money

$1200 worth of tickets for 4 people, not including $6.50 beers and the Broncos come out and lay an egg. Its games like this that make me want to invest that money in a tv an never go to a game again. Between the TV timeouts and the embarassing effort, plus being asked to sit down ON A THIRD DOWN, not worth it to go to broncos games anymore

by tylerwmiller on Nov 23, 2008 5:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Welcome!!

I’d love to get more response from people that were actually there….

Sorry to hear your time was so horrible….

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com

by John Bena (aka TheSportsGuru) on Nov 23, 2008 7:25 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, just got home from visiting the family

Was constantly second-guessing myself for missing the Raiders game, my only missed game of the year. Just knew Shanahan would have them ready. What has happened to the fire in his belly and deep hatred of the Raiders. The last few years we have split games with them when they had no business winning, including the last two losses at home.

Glad I didn’t get to watch, I would have been exponentially more pissed. My new 46" HDTV would have been in serious peril.

Touchdowns win championships?

by 53guys on Nov 23, 2008 7:03 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Travesty

I was at work, and when I found out that Oakland was up 24-10, I didn’t react because I was around co-workers, but, when I went to the bathroom I was just venting. I couldn’t believe this happened again. I am sick of the BS losses this month. I had to see Penn St. lose to Iowa, and now this? When is the Science Fiction going to end? I know this is a young team, but it is time to grow up. After beating Cleveland and Atlanta on the road the way they did, this isn’t acceptable anymore out of them. I am not one of the nuts who want to fire Shanny after every loss and want to vote people into the Hall after every win, but, after this joke of a game, I wonder about him. If this team is healthy next year and in this same position and blowing games like this, I think that Shanahan’s job security should be re-evalued.I don’t think we will. I think we will be around 9-2 or 10-1 at this time in 09. But, if we aren’t, and we are healthy, and this team continues to bumble and stumble, then Bowlen might have to look elsewhere for his Head Coach to start the 2010’s.

by PABroncofan on Nov 23, 2008 7:31 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Un-freakin-believable.

We lose to the Raiders. Thay haven’t scored an offensive TD in 13 quarters and then they score 4 against us in a blowout at home. Absolutly no excuse for losing to this team. None whatsoever.

Please let the Colts beat SD tonight ( 10-10 right now) so my day isn’t so bad.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 6

by weazel on Nov 23, 2008 7:42 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

WHAT?! WHAT?! NO WAY!

by metalman5050 on Nov 23, 2008 7:55 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I ask only

that my team plays like it belongs in the NFL. I guess they decided to take the week off. JC, how about your big arm now? Didn’t look so big to me. Just inaccurate. I’d hate to see this team in the playoffs, against a real team. That could be ugly. I hate that lost look on Shanahan’s face: what, didn’t he know they had a game today? He’ll just shrug it off, but it pisses me off. Oh well, there’s always next year, and the year after that, etc. Who cares if SD beats Indy; this team absolutely does not belong in the playoffs. They were like, flat, ala KC, the entire game. And, by the way, who the hell came up with the dumbass “game plan?”

"Be not like dumb-driven cattle...."

by jcps on Nov 23, 2008 7:56 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I GUESS THAT AL, LIMPEDONTO THE FIELD AND SACKED JAY!

by metalman5050 on Nov 23, 2008 7:57 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

2 turnovers we lose same same old old story...

Offense doesnt click D gets tired same same old old story.

by Shiiver on Nov 23, 2008 8:16 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

WOW...

3 words:
PATHETIC.
UNDER PREPARED.
HEARTLESS.

This team does not deserve to go to the play offs.

WHY CANT THIS BUNCH OF DUDE DEFEND THEIR TURF AT MILE HIGH? ITS EMBARASSING!!!!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Nov 23, 2008 8:22 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

3 Home losses in a row.....uncalled for.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 6

by weazel on Nov 23, 2008 8:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope

everyone’s watching Indy and SD right now, cause here is a real QB, and I’m not talking about Phyllis! You better get your stuff together, JC. No more talk shows until you show us something. The game today, third and four, we have a tired running play? Someone tell Jeremy Bates that this is the NFL! WTF! Lose to the Faiders in Denver? Guess I’m better off here in NorCal.

"Be not like dumb-driven cattle...."

by jcps on Nov 23, 2008 8:23 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

not asking for the moon

to ask that the team appears to give a rip. the play calling, the execution, everything just sucked. i wouldnt have minded terribly if it was a close game and they lost. young team. vets out. but this team is not a 6-4 team, a 13-3 team, a 12-4 team, a 11- 5 team. i doubt they will win more than one more game this year. that passionless (save for cutler and graham crying to the stripes at the end of the 2nd about marshall being brushed on ANOTHER overthrown ball) pathetic performance gave me a headache, and i too would like shan to take care of my bar tab.

by denver_diaspora on Nov 23, 2008 9:00 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

The offense

lost this one. Lost to a bad faider team. Thank you for the overthrow mention; he did that all game.

"Be not like dumb-driven cattle...."

by jcps on Nov 23, 2008 9:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

C'mon Vinatieri!

by ButteBronco on Nov 23, 2008 9:22 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Payton you are the MANning

by Shiiver on Nov 23, 2008 9:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Colts win....

and we still have a two-game lead….phewwwwww

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 6

by weazel on Nov 23, 2008 9:25 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Love you Adam V!!!!!!

"You're slow. You're not a running back, and you're not a running back for a reason."
The Shanahan

by Broncs Cheer on Nov 23, 2008 9:25 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Vinatieri

No thanks Broncos. We would have virtually guaranteed the division with a win today.

Touchdowns win championships?

by 53guys on Nov 23, 2008 9:31 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I am going to be blunt....

We should be 4 to 5 games up instaed of 2.
Say phew, say go us…we are up 2 games, but who gives a shit.
I will struggle to support this team with the lack of effort thery gave today.
It was a frickin disgrace…..
Winning the AFC West is like winning the boobie prize…..it will get us to the play offs so we can be embarrassed nationally instead of regioanlly.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Nov 23, 2008 9:36 PM MST reply actions 0 recs