MHR University - How Safeties Interact With Corners
I get quite a bit of reader mail from MHR members, members from around SBN's football sites, and sometimes someone who has linked to us from an outside source (such as Sports Illustrated). I recently received this question, and since it is topical to the current Denver defense, thought I would post it instead of just sending back a reply in the e-mail.
Any chance that you could do an article/ post at MHR on safety play. I feel like I am getting more knowledgable all the time, but I am confused as to the scheme the Broncos are using, and how the way we are using our safeties is detrimentally effecting the strengths of players like Champ and Dre.
I would be stoked to know this, and also if Barrett has the skill set that would allow us to go back and play to Dre and Champ's strengths.Ben Boyd
You've got it Ben! Let's take a look at how use of safeties affect corners in a defense.

First, let's define the safety position. While safeties vary in types, assignments, and uses, their primary job is to stop the big play. They are primarily "goalies" in the hockey sense.
The free safety (FS) is often lined up on the weakside, and almost always plays a deep zone and plays his own assignment based on what he is seeing develop (we call this a "true free safety").
The strong safety (SS) lines up on the strong side, and is often the "lesser" safety, though no less important. A majority of his time is spent in deep zone, but he can also be used to cover a receiving TE. Teams prefer to use a SAM linebacker to cover TEs to keep their safeties covering the deep field, but if a team has a slower, run blocking SAM, or if the TE is particulalry fast, the SS gets the assignment. Because SSs are usually a little bigger (but not as fast), they have developed reputations as being the heavy hitters.
For a quick read on the difference between 2 deep safeties (the most common alignment for safeties), and the term "cover two", which has nothing to do with our discussion, read here.
Now onto Ben's question.
In Denver's '08 defense so far, the team has experienced issues with stopping run plays. This is a problem that came over from the '07 season, when Denver chucked a few of their better linemen and brought in free agents to play a Contain System. Now, stuck with a defensive line in transition away from the contain (Denver chucked the Contain players too), and also saddled with key injuries (including Denver's rookie DT pick), Denver faces a crisis in run prevention.
As early as last year Denver tried to fix the problem by dropping a safety into the box (playing a SS as a kind of fourth LB). Two things happened right away, and both go to the heart of Ben's question.
- Champ Bailey looked human. All of a sudden he wasn't getting as many interceptions as he used to. Even though most QBs avoided throwing to him, some of the passes turned into big pass plays. (Most fans will recall the Green Bay Monday Night Debacle, where Bailey looked like he fell for a slant pass of a go route. The fault was really at safety).
- Bly, who is second only to Champ Bailey in interceptions going all the way back to 2001, looked human too. More passes went his way (because Bailey was on the other side), and many Broncos fans still persist in thinking that Bly is a bust. The truth is, his production dropped when Bailey's did.
Need more evidence? In recent games Bly has looked much better, and the common variable is that we have moved the SS out of the box. (Bailey should look better on his return too. He is currently injured).
So we see a pattern that shows two deep safeties make a difference. But the question is, "Why?"
The key is understanding "over" and "under" coverages. When a defensive back (a corner or safety) is between the QB and the receiver, he is said to be "underneath". This term comes about because, on a chalk board with Xs and Os where plays are diagramed, the defender is shown underneath (below) the receiver. Conversly, a DB playing "over" is chalked in on above, or "over" the receiver (between the receiver and the endzone).
Playing "over" gives you less of a chance of a big play for the offense, and a better chance to tackle. Playing "under" is high risk/high reward because you are in a great position to knock down or INT the ball, but in a poor position to tackle if the receiver gets the ball.
Another key is understanding how corners line up. From an earlier MHR University post:
There are three (main) types of line ups. Terms vary, so I'll use the terms we used in our program. The line up goes far in determining the way the CB will cover the play. Each has advantages and disadvantages.
- Tight
- On
- Off
"Tight" coverage features the CB as close to the WR as the line of scrimmage allows. It typicaly signals that the CB will "Bump and Run" the WR. This means the CB will "jack" or hit the WR when the WR starts to move, then cover him closely when he recovers. The advantage to this alignment is that timed offensive plays get disrupted. It also slows a WR who is faster than his coverage. The disadvatages are that the CB will get locked up in a run block if the play is a run, and if the bump is not well executed the WR will leave the CB in his dust.
"On" coverage features the CB a yard or two behind scrimmage. This allows him time to react to pass or run, but keeps him close enough to cover his assignment. Many zone CBs line up this way (relying on SAFs for deeper coverage), and this is the most common line-up for man coverage as well.
"Off" coverage is an interesting way to go. The CB lines up far back from the line of scrimmage, perhaps ten yards "off". In most cases it signals that the CB is willing to give up short passes, but doesn't want the WR to get away from him. Big mismatches favoring speed for the WR will get this line up. It is playing very cautiously, so as not to give up the big play. Oddly, the best CB in the NFL (Champ) prefers to line up this way. Most elite CBs do not.
Champ has such blazing speed (and the ability to seemingly defy physics by turning on his hips without slowing) that he can afford to read the QB and the WR from a distance, and still fire in for the hit/INT on short passes. He covers the distance in almost no time, and uses off coverage to buy a second to determine his commitment on the play. In longer plays Champ just uses his speed to stay on his target.
Now that we have our terms straight, let's see how two safeties are critical to effective CB play.
Both Bailey and Bly are skilled "underneath" receivers. Even though Bailey likes to line up "off" his principal (his target / his assignment), his goal is to dart in for the INT or the bat-down every time. Neither Bailey nor Bly like to time hits with an incoming pass; they want the big play. In Bly's case, his reputation as a "gambler" is based on the idea that he likes to line up "on" his receiver and play underneath.
Have you noticed the complaints from Denver fans at MHR that we are only rushing three players, and playing our CBs in off coverage? Well, it goes back to the fact that we are missing a SS (who is in the box). With the safety missing, the FS has to try to cover the entire defensive backfield by himself. To compensate, Denver's defensive coordinator is forced to play cautiously. He plays both CBs in off coverage (not Bly's style), and wants them playing "over" their principal.
While Bailey is comfortable playing "off", he is not a natural "over coverage" player. He will still make most of his tackles, but his INTs will plummet. Notice the emphasis on "most". When he misses, there is no longer a safety on his side to cover up the miss, making Champ look bad.
Bly, on the other hand, has an even tougher road. Bly is not only being forced to play "over", but "off" as well. Even when he played in Detroit, he was playing "tight" and "under" and was awfuly good at it. But in Detroit, he had a safety behind him everytime.
Now, whenever Bailey and Bly want to do their thing (play the position the way they were built to play it), they have an extra distraction. "Can I jump this route and knock down the ball or get an INT, or do I have to sit back and let the WR make a play on the ball and then try for a well timed tackle? Well, let's see. First I have to see where the safety is."
Is it starting to make sense?
Here are some examples from the same MHR-U article I quoted earlier:
CBs and the relationship with other positions
CBs rely on the front seven to hurry the QB into making mistakes. A good pass rush makes the QB get rid of the ball faster, and makes the job of the CB easier. Most folks know that.
What a lot of people don't know about is the relationship between CBs and safeties. Who do you blame when a QB gets sacked? You can blame the OL for not protecting him, or you can blame the QB for holding the ball too long, or you can blame the WRs for not getting open. But a lot of folks don't realize that a blown play by a CB may actualy be the fault of the SAF(s).
CBs make a lot of decisions based on "situational awareness". In other words, the CB must know where his SAFs are before deciding to go for an INT, or to commit to an expected route. Bly may go for an INT, expecting the FS to read the play correctly and to come over to the weakside. But if a slot receiver made the FS bite to the center of the field, Bly may not have the help he was supposed to have.
In another example, Bailey may get caught in a crossing pattern. He commits to a streak because he sees the QB setting his feet for a pass and notices both WRs racing for the endzone. He also expects the only safety not in the box to keep his zone in the center of the field. But if the SAF "bites", and commits to Bailey's man (instead of keeping the center of the field), and Bailey's man cuts in for the slant, the blown play looks like Bailey screwed up.
I hope that answers Ben's question. A SS in the box may or may not help the run game, but it certainly helps to wreck a pass defense. The natural look for a base formation will include 2 safeties. Add one, and you are in a heavily skewed pass defense. Take one away, and you have either a 4-4 or a 46 defense and little to no protection against the pass.
The 4-4 is weak against the pass for the above reasons. (Unless you are facing only one receiver, in which case you use two SAFs and one CB. This is common at the HS level). The 46 is likewise geared towards stopping the run, but is very rare at the pro level. (The Eagles have got by because of a freak of nature name Brian Dawkins playing at FS, and because the scheme places extreme pressure on opposing QBs).
Last, the Josh Barrett question. If Barrett is used with another safety in the deep zone, I think he posses the speed and skill set to develop into a heck of a safety. I hope we get to see enough of him to determine if we really should take or pass on a safety in the '09 draft. Because we have wasted so many games with only one deep safety (which makes them all look bad, leading to firings), we really have no idea of what we have back there.
Comments
This is great stuff, as usual
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by TedBartlett905 on
Dec 12, 2008 3:11 PM MST
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I've been waiting for this one, HT
Thanks for upholding your tradition of unimpinged greatness.
Jim Goodman for Broncos MVP!
by broncobear on
Dec 12, 2008 3:24 PM MST
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Great stuff HT.
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
by Mike Clark on
Dec 12, 2008 3:26 PM MST
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spock just did a post about safety situation--all my comments either started or ended with 'You know, I really don't know' or something like that.
I didn’t realize how ignorant I was of the actual ‘role’ of a safety—I knew what they did—but not how it interacted. Thanks again HT. You made it very clear and easy to understand.
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
by Mike Clark on
Dec 12, 2008 4:41 PM MST
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Thanks Mike.
If I ever speak over anyone’s head, I’m cheating evrybody. If what I’m writing is understood (even if it is disagreed with), that’s the most important thing.
I’m very glad that I’m breaking down the information so that everyone can enjoy it. I’m especially happy to see several readers over the last year starting to use terms and concepts that they’ve learned from the many great members who have written at MHR.
Thanks for letting me know how I’m doing. (And if there’s ever a critical comment, I want to hear that too!)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:48 PM MST
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lol.....You'd think being a football fan for almost fifty years I would know these things
Obviously I just took Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater for granted.
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
by Mike Clark on
Dec 12, 2008 4:55 PM MST
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example
since you bring up Dennis Smith, he’s a good example of why safeties need to be more than just big hitters. In the AFC championship in Cleveland every Bronco fan remembers The Drive. What is forgotten is that what made The Drive necessary is that on their previous series Cleveland had succeeded in isolating Brian Brennan one-on-one on Smith. The result was a 70 yd touchdown or such.
Much as many readers suggest that WW should be a safety I’m afraid he would become a similar target. I hate to say any position is “harder” than any other, but safety is certainly one of the more demanding in terms of rsponsibilities.
by SlowWhiteGuy on
Dec 13, 2008 12:12 PM MST
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Ht, I don't think you ever speak over people's heads
You are first, last, and always a teacher, and it’s obvious to me the excrutiating care you take to make sure everything’s crystal clear. That’s why your educational pieces are such an unalloyed pleasure to read. I always know I’ll be more knowledgeable after reading one. This one is no exception. What surprises me is how much, thanks to your previous efforts, I already understood. The distinction between playing “over” and playing off the ball, ala Bailey, comes as no surprise but would have escaped me as recently as six or eight months ago. Of course, it doesn’t hurt to reinforce previous lessons. The quote about Bailey committing to a streak and the safety biting and not being in a position to react to the slant clarifies not only the way one player can appear to be at fault when another makes a mistake but also the nature of each’s responsibilities and the
way in which they (ideally) interact. I feel smarter already!
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 12, 2008 10:05 PM MST
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Totally agree. HT is a good teacher.
Since I have come on this site, I have learned more about football and the terminology that is used.
You definatly explain things in a way that it is easy to get a basic idea of what is going on. Oh and thanks to Ben for bringing this question up.
Another good MHR University class.
"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan
Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 7
by weazel on
Dec 13, 2008 7:43 PM MST
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Wow.
"Choose the sword, and you will join me. Choose the ball and you join your mother, in death. You don’t understand my words, but you must choose. So… come boy, choose life or death."
by ButteBronco on
Dec 12, 2008 3:27 PM MST
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Couldn't say it better myself.
"During MHR Radio we laugh, sing, listen, shed a few tears, and learn all of Papi's dirty secrets." -TSG 12/7/08
by papigrande on
Dec 12, 2008 3:57 PM MST
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You said it well Butte
It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08
by firstfan on
Dec 13, 2008 12:56 AM MST
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Fantastic work HT.
I really had no idea how intricate the relationship was between a CB and a S. I did feel like Bly was getting a bad rap though…
This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.
by Zappa on
Dec 12, 2008 3:35 PM MST
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This is one heck of a site
So educational with all of you guys. Thanks HT u r the teacher :)
by isiddiqi on
Dec 12, 2008 3:56 PM MST
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Thanks all.
I just hope Ben reads it! I did e-mail him!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:02 PM MST
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The Professor is in the building!!
HT, nice post…one quick question
With Josh Bell looking solid in his first couple of outings, do you see any possibility of Bly moving to FS now that Champ is back?
I know he isn’t known for his tackling, although it has gotten better, and he is as you say second to only Champ in picks, so he has the “ballhawk” mentality.
Thoughts?
by Steve O' on
Dec 12, 2008 4:02 PM MST
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I think Bly is too short....Champ is more prototypical of a safety, but they are good CBs...we just need to find a Safety to help them out! lol
This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.
by Zappa on
Dec 12, 2008 4:07 PM MST
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No.
Several reasons.
In the pecking order of players, some positions are seen as more critical. This is foolish. A kicker is a critical element of a team, even though most guys consider kickers sub-human. To a degree, a safety is (wrongly) seen as a lesser cornerback. Bly would see such a move as a demotion, and would see his future earnings take a nose dive. He wouldn’t go for it.
Second, the positions are similar, and require many of the same traits. But they are different positions, and require different talents. Yes, Bly has speed. He has great hands too, but great hands are a plus for a safety, not a requirement. On the other hand, he isn’t a strong tackler, and I wouldn’t want him trying to make open field tackles.
Bly is an excellent CB, and I think he would be an average, or less than average SAF. I wouldn’t move a guy who has played in the pro bowl (as Bly has) from his position. If he has to go, he has trade value. But I wouldn’t move him to another position, especially when we start using two deep safeties and his game goes back up.
Just my opinion.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:19 PM MST
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You guys both make valid points...
I quess I was thinking more on the lines of Rod Woodson who as we know made the switch and extended his career.
I would rather have a mediocre corner and Ed Reed than a great corner and bad safety.
I know that sounds foolish but with the way the rules are today a corner only has 3 to 5 seconds and the receiver is free but a Safety who can read the field they are dangerous.
by Steve O' on
Dec 12, 2008 4:32 PM MST
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Woodson...
…is a different case. He was on the end of his career, which I don’t think is the case with Bly. Woodson was also a more physical back, and a solid tackler.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:42 PM MST
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See this is why I ask you all, I seek the truth!!
by Steve O' on
Dec 12, 2008 4:53 PM MST
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Champ as a Safety
I personally like the idea of Champ and Barret as the safety pairing for the broncos with Bell and Bly as the Corners.
I’m not sure Champ would necessailry go for it but i think it likely lengthens his career.
It also gives the secondary a much more solid “look” to my eye.
Champ tackles well in the openfield, reads QB’s really well, supports the run better than average for a corner/safety and stacks up really well over the middle against some of the dominant TE’s we face in the west every year.
i also think it increases the ability of bell and bly to gamble for ints (given our poor turnover ratio).
Obviously i’m known to be wrong about these things from time to time :-)
by AlleyCat. on
Dec 13, 2008 7:56 AM MST
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Moving from CB to Safety
Just a note: I can think of two former Broncos who made the move very successfully. Steve Foley in the 70’s, and Tyrone Braxton in the 90’s.
When the Gods are angry with someone, they give him what he asks for.
Greek Proverb
by bradley on
Dec 13, 2008 11:13 AM MST
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How did I forget
Billy Thompson, who played corner for awhile before moving to safety back in the 70’s.
When the Gods are angry with someone, they give him what he asks for.
Greek Proverb
by bradley on
Dec 13, 2008 11:43 AM MST
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Evidence that two deep safeties are helping the pass defense
I noticed a while ago that we’ve been nearly last in passes defensed. How does that happen with two elite cornerbacks? I think HT just summed it up. Look at the last two games: the Jets game we defensed eight passes, with six by CBs, one by LBs and one by safety. The KC game we defensed seven passes, two by CBs, two by LBs, and three by safeties. In two games we went from 31 PD to 46, gaining in two games almost half of what we had in the first 11. The CBs are able to do their thing and break up passes, but safeties as well are able to get to the plays in time to break them up instead of one chance for a TD-saving tackle.
GREAT post HT.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on
Dec 12, 2008 4:15 PM MST
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Thanks Poor!
I think I need for you to throw in a few helpful stats in each of my posts! I hadn’t even considered looking up those numbers (I’m not a numbers guy). I’m glad the numbers back me up. Thanks for the find!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:24 PM MST
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No problem
It was something I noticed independent of the article, but I saw this and thought “how convenient to tack on” instead of having to write a fanpost on it (probably wouldn’t have happened…)
Isn’t it great when theory and numbers come together so beautifully?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on
Dec 12, 2008 4:31 PM MST
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Yes...
…but only when they prove the point one sets out to make.
lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 4:43 PM MST
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now THAT'S statistics!
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on
Dec 12, 2008 4:53 PM MST
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Thank you HT.
I learn more everytime I read and I enjoy the games more for it.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on
Dec 12, 2008 5:12 PM MST
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Great Stuff
It so frustrating to see the cause of our problems; it’s like the cancer that you can’t cure and are just helpless. We can’t stop the run, we sacrafice a safety in the box, then we (the defense) all look bad and safeties get fired.
Shanny has been flying through Safeties like it’s going out of style and it’s unfortunate as I’m sure some of them would be OK if used properly. It’s like shooting ourselves in the foot! It seems that nothing will improve until we can stop the run with the front 7.
There is no 'Ctrl' button on Chuck Norris's computer. Chuck Norris is always in control.
Chuck Norris destoryed the periodic table because he only recognizes the element of surprise.
by nickt84 on
Dec 12, 2008 5:19 PM MST
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Any old defensive coordinator will tell you the same thing...
…regardless of what school of thought he’s been trained in: Nothing grips a DC with more fear than not being able to stop the run.
When a defense can’t stop the run, everything else goes to hell. Our front seven MUST improve next year if we are to be a championship caliber team. The offense is already there (we just need our RBs to stay healthy).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 12, 2008 5:25 PM MST
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Totally agree.
If our RBs stay healthy and we realize that we are set at the safety position, the Broncos can spend all their draft picks on the DL and Linebackers.
by broncoholic on
Dec 12, 2008 5:40 PM MST
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Barrett and the return of the big nickel?
First off, great post HT. My question is a bit of a tangent, but it is related to the play of our safeties and their responsibilities. Early on in the season, our SS Marquand Manuel was consistently in the box, mirroring the TE and covering him on any pass plays. I don’t know if it was part of the scheme or a lack of familiarity with Boss Bailey or the fact we couldn’t stop the run so we needed a safety in the box anyway, but the LB’s were generally not responsible for covering any good receiving TEs.
Which brings me to my point. I have long held the belief that our defensive stuggles began with the injury in 2006 to Sam Brandon, the man for whom the “big nickel” was created. My memory is a bit hazy on the details (and hopefully you guys can help fill them in), but the big nickel was a package that had Brandon, a natural safety, as the extra defensive back. IIRC, the package was mostly used in passing downs against teams with top TE – like Gates and Gonzalez. Brandon had the coverage abilities to stay with the TE but had enough size that he was not a liability if the play was a run. I’ve noticed that over the last half of 2006, for pretty much all of last year and a good amount of this one, the Broncos have not been able to handle teams with TE’s that can also catch the ball. Now maybe because the run defense is so bad the LBs are focused on stopping it which then allows the TE to get free releases, but I think the problem is also that Denver has not had players at LB who have the coverage abilities to deal with good TEs. (DJ is probably the exception but he has not been used for that role)
After watching Josh Barrett cover Tony Gonzalez last week, I wonder if he has a “big nickel” type role in his future. The diffrence would be that Barrett would start the game and play safety in the base defense, but would shift up to the line to cover the TE while Denver brought a third safety in to play back in deep coverage. I don’t think the Panthers or Bills have a TE who is enough of a threat to require it and I don’t think Denver would show a new defense in the last week of the season against SD (unless they still needed the win), but maybe if they get matched up against Indy or Baltimore in the playoffs we could see Barrett, McCree and Manuel all on the field together as part of a nickel package.
by MattR on
Dec 12, 2008 5:31 PM MST
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While you're waiting for HT to return I'll put in my two cents' worth
First, I think our defensive troubles go much deeper than the loss of Brandon, having more to do with
our getting rid of most of a pretty good run-stopping line in order to fit Bates’s incoming defensive philosophy, which we then scrapped leaving the cupboard bare. But your argument has great relevance to the particular problem of our not dealing with our division’s quality tight ends as well as we have in the past. I too thought Barrett did a helluva job on Gonzalez. Sure, he still made some plays but then, he’s Gonzalez. He does that. I didn’t see any glaring mistakes by Barrett. I’m curious to see what HT says but your suggestion is an intriguing one that makes a lot of sense to me. (For what that’s worth.)
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 12, 2008 10:26 PM MST
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Defensive problems
I tend to agree with both of you in part. Our problems in 2006 began with a rash of injuries to our safeties. If you remember, we started out the season setting a record for the most consecutive quarters without yielding a touchdown. Then a rash of injuries to our safeties set in. At one point I seem to remember Brandon, Lynch, and Furgesson all injured. On top of that Larry Coyer, while a great strategist, was a lousy game time coordinator. No adjustments.
Shanahan realized he had to make some changes; enter the Bates – Run Contain System. I saw an interview with Bum Phillips talking about coaching. He said, when you look around most coaches are one of two types. The first has a system and they rigidly plug players into it. The system works when they have the right players but not when they don’t. The second type takes the players they have and molds a system to fit the players. It may work for the players, but a team of stars is not a team. Then he said the truly great coaches are they ones who can take their system but adapt it to make the best use of the players they have.
When Bates came in he got rid of serviceable run stoppers like Warren, cause he didn’t fit the system. He forced otherwise good players to change their style to his system, Bailey, Bly, Williams, and he brought in over the hill players like Adams, not because they were still good, but just because they fit his system. The result shouldn’t have been a surprise.
Earlier in the season we weren’t making the best use of our players, especially Bailey and Bly. But injuries have forced Slowik to adapt to the players he had available. He’s done a truly amazing job. We like to talk about how Shanny/Turner keep plugging new players in at tailback and producing, but look at the job Slowik has done with the defense! My concern is, now that the starters are getting healthy and returning to action, are we going to go back to the early season approach or continue to adapt and adjust to take advantage of the strengths and limit the weaknesses of the player we have.
by SlowWhiteGuy on
Dec 13, 2008 12:40 PM MST
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It seems to me the players themselves have improved over the course of the season
with more push up front, which has helped the linebackers, who have tackled better and shown more gap control, which has freed up our safeties to help the corners, which has enabled our corners to play tighter in pass coverage. The thigh bone’s connected to the knee bone which is connected to the. . . I don’t think the return of the starters is going to change any of this, at least I hope it doesn’t. You’re right. Slowik has done wonders. I thought our defensive descent had reached its low point last year and that with our offseason additions and the maturation of Thomas and others we’d turned the corner. But Lynch’s decline and the weak play of our remaining safeties was one last blow, plus D-Rob was slow at first to adjust back to his preferred one-gap style. I think finally in midseason we have really, truly, actually (cross my fingers) turned the corner and that our defense is going to get better and better from here on out.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 1:32 PM MST
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I want to see a few more games to figure out how well...
….if at all, the defense has improved. I’m glad for the recent games, but a lot of that was dropping the 3 man rush, pushing back a safety, and some excellent play by “back-up” players.
I certainly hope we’ve turned the corner, but I still would like to see a couple of more games. Carolina (win or lose) should tell us a lot.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 8:51 PM MST
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Question
Do you think pushing back the safety was something they just decided to do, regardless of consequences, or something they could do because the front seven was getting the job done?
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 9:16 PM MST
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That's a tough call.
I’d like to think Shanny stepped in, and said, “Enough is enough.” : )
It seems to me that the decision to drop back the safeties coincided with the moment our run defense improved. I don’t see a connection though. In the Jets game, we blunted the run AND the pass, and had two SAFs back. That’s also the game where the run D seemed to pick up.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:22 PM MST
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Shanny stepping in
I had sort of thought that our putting a safety in the box last year, when we were getting gashed so badly by the run, was Shanahan overruling Bates and insisting that we had to stop the run, whatever it took. And that this year was more or less a continuation. You don’t think that’s the case?
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 9:34 PM MST
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I agree that Bates was overuled last year.
We scrapped the Contain, and pulled the SS into the box part way into the season. This year was a continuation, and still wasn’t working. I agree 100%.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:45 PM MST
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Matt
I agree with several points. Not having a SAM that can cover a TE is an issue, and the inability to run the heavy nickel is part of the problem. Also, not being able to stop the run, which distracts the team from pass stopping as well. All of your points are valid.
But as Spock points out below, there are many, many problems. His point on the personnel changes during the Bates tenure is a major factor too.
As for Barrett in the big nickel, I haven’t seen enough of him to make a fair evaluation. I watch the games that I can, but if your observations of him are accurate, then yes, I think he would be a good justification for the big nickel look.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 8:47 PM MST
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You know what really stinks?
I can never watch the Broncos play except when they are on SNF or MNF. I wish that CBS and FOX would make those terrible games I end up watching, Broncos games. I’ve tried to get on stoogetv.com, but my computer won’t let me get on the website. I don’t know what else to do!
by broncoholic on
Dec 12, 2008 6:03 PM MST
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So in the reloading season a good DT pick up/draft would go along why helping our pass defense
in both pressure and allowing us to play a cover two
by RiG on
Dec 12, 2008 6:53 PM MST
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What we want
Is to be able to play cover 2 when we want because we’ve forced the offense into long downs. The problem we have is letting the run game get too many yards, and people keep rolling against us…then we bring in a safety to help shore things up and start getting passed on for big gains.
by sadaraine on
Dec 12, 2008 9:55 PM MST
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Two deep safeties is not a Cover 2
even though a Cover 2 will usually have two deep safeties. The Cover 2 as I understand from HT’s previous educational sorties is a defense in which the corners play short zones and must be able to tackle well since they don’t follow receivers down the field but are also responsible for the run in their zones. Since Bly is more of a pure cover corner and not a great tackler he was a misfit in Detroit’s system and therefore expendable.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 12, 2008 10:32 PM MST
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correct
I believe there is confusion with the Cover 2/two deep safeties. Cover 2 is a defensive scheme (like the Zone Blitz(?) we are playing now or the Run-Contain last year), while two deep safeties simply refers to any defense with two safeties playing deep. HT (I believe) is positing that any respectable NFL-level defense will play with two deep safeties, regardless of scheme (barring certain temporary situational needs)—because look at the results if you don’t.
Please feel free to beat me down if I misspoke…
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on
Dec 13, 2008 10:39 AM MST
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That's exactly the way I understand it too
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 12:11 PM MST
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You've got it.
Pretty much every system except the rare 46 Defense has two deep safeties.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:01 PM MST
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Zone v. Man
My understanding is that C2 is primarily a zone system, while 2-deep is primarily a man package. Although when you combine those with various blitzes and decoys the distinction can blurr.
We used to use a zone system, Show Blitz, except that we used man coverage in it. VERY high risk high reward.
by SlowWhiteGuy on
Dec 13, 2008 11:59 AM MST
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As I understand it
two deep can be part of a Cover 2 or a man package. The difference is the safeties would have to play deep in the Cover 2 because the receivers become their (and the middle linebacker’s?) primary responsibilities once they clear the short zones, whereas in other systems two deep is optional (but greatly preferred).
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 12:19 PM MST
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We played an unusual variant of the Show Blitz.
It is normaly played with zones. Coyer ran it as a man system.
Very good job Slow!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:03 PM MST
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A+ to you Spock.
And, I would add that the cover 2 system is actually more about what the LBs do than the what the safeties do. (You already covered the point about the CBs).
Very good job!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 8:56 PM MST
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No.
A cover two does NOT mean two deep safeties, as commonly believed. We DO want two deep safeties, we do NOT want to play a cover two with our current player types. (FOr the difference between cover 2 and “two deep safeties”, read the article I link in the main story).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 8:54 PM MST
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Thanks mate....
This is exactly what I was after!
And it answers my questions/ queries/ wondering why we have been playing the scheme we are.
I have always thought that Champ and Dre were not being used in the right way. I thought “Why do we have a tandem called the best in the NFL yet they dont make any game changing plays?”
I hope to goodness that Slowik lets these guys play aggressive and takes out the safety in the box.
It seems an INSANE game planning idea by Slowik to play a Safety in the box, yet not have a safety that is even half capable to cover the rest of the fiels. It leads to this soft zone garbage we see and limits the effectiveness of Champ and Dre.
Does this make sense to you HT?
I am hopeful that with Barrett now playing, that we may get back to letting our CB’s continue to play aggressively, and actually get some good play out of our safetys.
Thanks for answering my question man and HIGHLY recommended Coach!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
by boydy2669 on
Dec 12, 2008 9:34 PM MST
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And now you understand my fury...
…at watching game after game with our SS in the box. Awful leadership! You guys had Gallipoli, we have had Slowik (at least the way he started off).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:08 PM MST
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I've been frustrated too
in part because of what I’ve learned from you regarded the right way to use safeties. But in line with my comment above, are we being totally fair in blaming Slowik? If not being able to stop the run is a defensive coordinator’s worst nightmare, the decision to take desperate measures is understandable even if wrong. And is it only a defensive coordinator’s nightmare, or a head coach’s also? Do we know for sure whose decision it ultimately was to play a safety in the box? Is it Shanahan who wants two safeties deep, or Slowik, and if the former would he be hands off that long before saying enough is enough?
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Dec 13, 2008 9:47 PM MST
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Good stuff.
1) Desperate measures are understandable. But when they (in turn) create more problems, perhaps they are best left alone. The way to fix the run defense is to fix the front seven, not to destroy the pass defense. I would have some empathy for Slowik, but in this case, we didn’t fix the run defense, and we ruined the pass defense. So it was a lose / lose scenario. A return to orthodox formations seems to have helped quite a bit.
2) It is worse on the coordinator, in my opinion. When my defenses gave up a big play, I felt terrible. But the head coach still had an offense to put his faith in. If my defense was failing, it was all me, and I had nowhere else to look to. Then again, I never HC’ed, so I can’t be sure.
3) I honestly don’t know.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:58 PM MST
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WOW! Great post HT and great comments by all.
It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08
by firstfan on
Dec 13, 2008 1:06 AM MST
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Nice job, as always HT...
Two more questions for you,
1) Why did most scouts say Barrett would fit best in a cover 2 scheme? Did they feel he had suspect cover skills? He looked great vs. KC.
2) If Coach feels Barrett is developing well enough to start next year, are we then focusing on FS only in the draft, or is he versatile enough for us to go after the best available saftey, free or strong?
by donbok1 on
Dec 13, 2008 2:19 PM MST
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Regarding #2
I would say always take the overall best player in terms of FS or SS. Generally, guys get classified as one or other based on how good they are in coverage, but they both have many of the same skills. It is not unusual to have a SS in a FS position, if he is the better safety at coverage. Another general rule of thumb is that the more experienced, more well rounded safety will line up as a FS.
We saw this for a number of years with John Lynch, who had all the qualities of a SS, but lined up at FS 90% of the time because he was out of this world good at reading defenses. That he also happened to be the best SS on the team, lining up as a “monster” or 4th LB, is merely a testament to his HOF ability.
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by styg50 on
Dec 13, 2008 3:38 PM MST
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Does that mean...
that you think Barrett has improved enough this year that he could play FS next year? I would consider that a big step, since this pick seemed to leave you a little uninspired last April.
I bring up the FS/SS question because the two safetys most likely two go #’ 1 and 2 would be Mays and Moore in most people’s opinion, and will probably be long gone before our pick would come around. I’m trying to get an idea of wether Barrett’s talent would translate to FS as well, allowing us to go DT, LB or other in the first round, and still get our top rated SS in the second.
This scenario of having two talented young safety’s next year is uber exciting to me, although I wish Lynch was still around to tutor. I really think this team is one draft away from having a very good young defense, that will be able to match our talented young offense.
by donbok1 on
Dec 13, 2008 4:24 PM MST
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Out of all the safeties currently on the roster
I like Barrett the best as a future FS, but I personally, as a matter of opinion, would like to have his speed in back, helping out Dre Bly. The strong safety, whether it is manuel or whoever, can help out on Champ’s side, where the gambles (in principle) are less significant (due to Champ’s particularly unique combination of speed, smarts and athleticism).
As to being uninspired by the Barrett pick, in hindsight, I was worried too much about the precipituous drop. Denver had been having sucha fantastic draft that the Barrett pick struck me as an “against the grain” choice. I have come around, and while there are a few other players I would have liked to have seen them draft there, I do not in any way fault the Barrett choice. He may or may not be successful going forward, but he can count me among his fans and admirers now, after the job he did on Tony Gonzalez. I never thought he would have been ready so soon. He has definitely impressed me.
I am still reviewing tape on safeties, but from what I have seen so far, a trade up isn’t worth talking about, so I think you are right, Mays and Moore will be gone. But there are some terrific athletes just behind them. I think the funnest pick of the draft is definitely shaping up to be our #1 pick (unlike this year when we were all pretty sure it was going to be a LT). I think it could go any of four different ways on defense, and there is a very good chance that it ends up being a can’t miss athlete with traits that fit either our offense or defense, sort of a variant on the “BPA” method.
I think a tandem of young, fast, hardhitting toughguys in the backfield will make a short term struggle with inexperience worth it. You are absolutely right, it would be VERY exciting, especially when you indulge in picturing that tandem years down the line…
Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.
by styg50 on
Dec 13, 2008 10:16 PM MST
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Styg's answer to #2 is 100% dead on.
As for #1, I have a hard time understanding what the scouts are driving at.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:14 PM MST
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one question
what does the safety in the box on running downs have to do with the 3-man rush, soft-zone concept on 3rd-down/passing downs. while i agree with what you are saying about the 7-man front, i don’t believe we have the 7 to do it successfully(sans larsen/ww) right now. we have been effective at crowding the line of scrimmage on early downs to stuff the run, but on 3rd-down we go soft. the safety isn’t in the box on a 3-man rush, is he? if he is, that is plain stupid, as you have 4 linebackers(7 in the front) to stop the possibility of a 3rd-down run, which isn’t our problem, anyway. i thought screen passes were, because we have 7-in-the-box on passing downs. were we running a 3-5? can someone clarify, i am still confused about the run/pass/safety in-the-box correlation. it seems to me the only problem is with audibling runs on 3rd down, to which i say, so what. if we’re giving them the yardage anyway, does it matter if it’s through the air, or less likely(and dangerous), on the ground. also, now that we are rushing 4, anyway, are we running a 4-4 on passing plays? no, right? i don’t think i’m ever going to get this one, i tried
hear me, perpetrators of bread crime, your punishment is at hand.
taste my blintzkrieg!
by davecheffy on
Dec 13, 2008 2:34 PM MST
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put another way
what is wrong with 8-in-the-box on obvious running downs, and 7 on obvious passing downs. if that’s what we need to do?
hear me, perpetrators of bread crime, your punishment is at hand.
taste my blintzkrieg!
by davecheffy on
Dec 13, 2008 2:40 PM MST
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Play Action Pass
if the up safety bites on the play fake a pass catching tight end gets free reign in the middle of the field. If the back safety take the TE then the corners no longer have the safety help they expected.
by SlowWhiteGuy on
Dec 13, 2008 6:29 PM MST
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I understand what you're saying buddy.
There are many problems with a SAF in the box on obvious run plays.
For one, the QB will often audible to a pass. Second, you might note that we weren’t stopping the run with a SAF in the box anyway, so why sacrifice the pass too?
On the 3 man rushes, we would drop the SS into zone. The problem was, he was starting from the box, and took much longer to drop back. On plays where we rushed three and had the SS back, we played such “soft” zones that we gave up yardage left and right.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:19 PM MST
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Thanks HT - Another excellent article
I noticed that there is a recent MHR University articles area. Could there be a link to all the archive MHR University articles? It would make it easier to point people to the archives for understanding then for me to give them a publish date and have them wade through all the postings.
Thanks again for all your hard work in MHR.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
by wyoeng on
Dec 13, 2008 9:25 PM MST
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Yes, it already exists.
On the left side of the main page, there is a list of topics. One of them is MHR University. Click it, and it will list every University article.
Hope that helps!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 13, 2008 9:47 PM MST
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Found an easier way
I noticed at the top of your article.
by hoosierteacher on Dec 12, 2008 3:00 PM MST in MHR University
You can go straight to the archive by clicking on the MHR University link.
Thanks for the information HT.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
by wyoeng on
Dec 13, 2008 10:12 PM MST
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Even better!
Great tip, and better than mine. Good call!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Dec 14, 2008 8:28 AM MST
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