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Shanahan not all that must change

From the firing of Ted Sundquist to some of the personnel moves made by the organization, there have been signs that something wasn't right at Dove Valley for quite a while, and if the Broncos are to return to glory, the changes must not stop at Shanahan's door.

 

What internal strife and chaos has existed at Dove Valley has largely gone unseen.  From the outside, we have no true idea of whether it has been a functional, harmonious workplace or if it has simply held more agendas and paranoia than the Nixon White House.

 

But we have seen cracks form, long before Tuesday afternoon’s earthquake.

Star-divide

Last March, there were staff layoffs, the firing of Ted Sundquist, and Pat Bowlen’s subsequent declaration to The Denver Post that, “there was in my mind a dysfunctional relationship between the head coach and the general manager.”  There was Bowlen’s assertion at the same time that the locker room was “relatively dysfunctional,” and that the coaching staff was “not in sync.”

 

There were the revelations of Stefan Fatsis’ tome of his time inside the Broncos’ organization.  Some were borne of bitterness, such as Jake Plummer’s vent on page 316. Others illuminated a culture of discord among coaches, players and executives. 

 

And then there are some of the additions to the front office and coaching staff in recent years, according to the staff directory on the team website.

 

Two Tutens.

 

Two Slowiks.

 

Three Goodmans.

 

Sounds less like the roll call of an office and more like a family reunion.

 

And then there’s those who have been around since “way back when,” five men on the coaching staff who played on Broncos teams for which Shanahan was an assistant or head coach, easily the highest ratio in the league.

 

Nepotism and cronyism run amok.

 

Are they the best men for the jobs?   It would be presumptuous to answer for certain.  But their absence of experience before joining the Broncos does not offer much encouragement.

 

The younger Slowik, the son of defensive coordinator Bob and an assistant defensive backs coach, was 24 years old and had never coached before being added to the Broncos’ staff in 2005.  The sons of vice president Jim Goodman, assistant GM Jeff and southeast region scout Tyler, had scant post-graduate experience before joining the Broncos.  Jeff was a lawyer while Tyler was involved with Georgia Tech’s program for one year in a quality-control capacity.  Will Tuten, who works in player personnel, is the eldest son of Rich Tuten. The younger Tuten does not have a biography on the Broncos web site, so we will not evaluate his resume here, except to say that we hope he had more experience when taking the job than the Goodman sons or Ryan Slowik.

 

The five coaches who played for Shanahan are Rick Dennison, Steve Watson, Ronnie Bradford, Jim Ryan and Keith Burns.  Dennison, in 14 years on the staff, has become an outstanding teacher of line play, and the dominance Ryan Clady displayed as a rookie can largely be attributed to him. 

 

But none of these five coaches had any college or professional coaching experience before being hired by the Broncos.  Dennison and Ryan had some high-school coaching work immediately before being hired by the Broncos.  This hardly qualifies a man to coach at the sport’s highest level.  But they knew the man in charge of football operations from way back, and lo and behold, they had jobs in the organization.

 

It’s not what you know, it’s who you know, as the cliche' goes. But it is incumbent upon an organization operating at the highest level to do due diligence into its hires.  Bringing aboard the man you know through friendship or family is the easy choice socially.  It is also often the wrong one, a lesson most painfully and prominently learned by Bobby Bowden at Florida State.

 

These are some of the men in whose hands the Broncos rested.  This is not how a dynamic organization of fresh ideas is built.  This creates a culture of made men, of ‘yes’ men who owe their livelihoods more to a connection than their own qualifications.  If the Broncos were going to hire high-school coaches, then what made Dennison and Ryan more qualified than coaches of perennial high-school powers like De La Salle or Long Beach Poly in California, Union in Tulsa or Don Bosco Prep in New Jersey?  The ex-Broncos players certainly hadn't achieved the same kind of sideline success as the coaches at those programs have.

 

There are reasons why anti-nepotism laws exist in jobs that are subject to public oversight – education, state government, police, etc..  It is because it is impossible to make these decisions without being at least slightly clouded by loyalty to kith and kin.

 

If the dismissal of Shanahan is to yield a new and prosperous Broncos age, then it must also represent the end to a culture that seems on surface glance to be incestuous.  This is not the only problem that befalls the Broncos today, but it is probably the easiest to fix.

 

The Broncos must study organizations that have succeeded in different ways.  What has worked in New England’s dynastic run?  In the rapid reversals of fortune in Miami and Atlanta?  In the steady success of Pittsburgh and Indianapolis?  In Baltimore’s perennially stout defense?  There is no successful organization that is not worth an examination for ideas in what will hopefully be a successful attempt to reinvigorate what has become a stale franchise capable of little more than late-summer teases that become late-autumn fades.


Do not weep for Shanahan.  He will have no trouble finding a job if he sees fit.  This league is small, and a good resume and praise will go a long way.  Shanahan has both, evidenced by the pair of Super Bowl rings he takes from Denver and the nearly unanimous words of his players who have spoken on the record.  Their reaction is a mix of shock over the firing and admiration of the dismissed party’s work.

 

But the Broncos have made their choice and must move ahead, and the only way Tuesday’s action will reinvigorate the Broncos is if it is the first step in eradicating what seems to be a curious culture in the football operations of the franchise.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

15 recs  |  Comment 38 comments |

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Freaking excellent post, rec'd

I had ranted about similar things earlier this year.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Dec 31, 2008 1:41 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I remember your nepotism post

I looked into it at the time and was shocked, but decided to hold my tongue. Too many wierd things going on during the season made me wary about heading down a road like nepotism. That is a serious black eye to the organization of a coaching staff, but it also speaks to Shanny’s weakness: evaluating people. Nepotism, and all forms of favoritism stem from an inability to properly read and assess people.

I have spent today looking back at many of the small things that shanny has said and done: talking up his players, the quick hires and fires, the incongruous hirings among the coaching staff… I have to ask myself whether talking up a player one day and firing him the next was part of an elaborate “mastermind” smokescreen, or more purely indicative of a guy who really didn’t know what he was talking about…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 31, 2008 2:25 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Good Post.

All of these things sting of truth.

by precisiontint on Dec 31, 2008 7:24 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Holden...

Awesome post.
I just did a post from a business perspective that runs in with this post.
NEVER MIX FRIENDS AND BUSINESS…..its a recipe for disaster. See Broncos 2005-2008.
Shanny’s acumen for business, and Bowlen’s unerring faith in him are the major reasons for this vicous decline.
Bowlen saw the whole mess come to fruition this season, especially with the performance of SLowik, and Shanny’s loyalty to him in the face of massive eveidence of incompetence.
Recommended man and Happy New Year!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Dec 31, 2008 7:32 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant Post

These are the sorts of things people need to consider before coming to hysterical, knee jerk reactions about Shanahan’s firing.

There’s no bigger fan of Shanahan than me but as a coach said to me yesterday (and I mentioned on another thread) “In the NFL you’re either hired or you’re fired but you’re never safe”

His meaning was that Shanahan clearly felt he was safe – and when you feel you can’t be removed from your job you often (even without necessarily meaning to) surround yourself with people who will comfort you rather than challenge you and when you think you’re being innovative or edgy you’re really just putting a fresh coat of paint on old ideas.

I think that although those of us who follow the Broncos are looking at this from the outside in and will never know everything, once the cracks in something become large enough it isn’t hard to get at least a glimpse at the interior.

This was a dysfunctional, stale organization that was surely trying to achieve but still groaning under its own weight.

It’s hard to swallow but change always is. The Broncos clearly needed change. Pat Bowlen deserves our credit and respect for making the hard decision when surely most of us expected business as usual.

Bowlen’s image had become one of an owner subservient to his coach and perhaps a little out of touch and I think this proves quite the opposite. For perhaps the reasons mentioned above and certainly others we may never know about, Pat Bowlen took the risk and pulled the trigger on what had to be one of the hardest decisions of his life.

It couldn’t have been easy but I think we all know it was necessary – this is a business after all – and he deserves our support.

Let’s give him a chance to succeed and turn things around. And look on the bright side; a lot of the pieces are already in place on the field. There’s a lot of work to be done but this isn’t a 1-15 or 4-12 team that’s three or four drafts away from being competitive.

There’s hope, and I’m saddened but excited for the future. GO Broncos!

by TheMastermind on Dec 31, 2008 7:53 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

excellent post

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Dec 31, 2008 7:58 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Leadership Run Amok

Nice work Holden. This site continues to amaze me.

"Choose the sword, and you will join me. Choose the ball and you join your mother, in death. You don’t understand my words, but you must choose. So… come boy, choose life or death."

by ButteBronco on Dec 31, 2008 8:04 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Loved this post

nepotism occurs so easily it’s hard to prevent it unless one is proactive to guard oneself from it.

I wish Woody Paige was our coach!

by bcfunk on Dec 31, 2008 8:08 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

very, very true

and the reason that the Rooney Rule is in place. I never thought that racial prejudice was as big a problem in the NFL as the old boys network. And looking at the Broncos coaching staff seems to prove it. Of course you don’t want to ignore good candidates just because you have a prior relationship (ie. Monte Kiffin going to Tennessee), but you have to be wary about over-estimating the abilities of people you know personally.

Almost hypocritically as I type this, I am hoping Denver hires a defensive minded coach who can bring a set of good assistants with him. Which as a side note might be the biggest side effect of going through DC’s like Spinal Tap goes through drummers. I don’t know that the position coaches had a lot of continuityor if the ones who stayed around were any good since they had a different boss evaluating them each year.

And that brings me to another point (and yes, I am rambling now although this relates back to the FnaPost) – when was the last time Denver had a defensive assistant that another team wanted to poach?

by MattR on Dec 31, 2008 10:38 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt - I can't think of one

Heck of a point

Jim Goodman for Broncos GM!

by Emmett Smith on Jan 3, 2009 1:16 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

I had no idea… thanks for the info and well written piece!

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Dec 31, 2008 8:28 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

For the insight about what has going on. An organization that gets too content goes nowhere, and that is what has been going on with our beloved Broncos.

by PABroncofan on Dec 31, 2008 8:30 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great Post

I’ve never seen a coach want to win more then Bill Cowher.
I would love to have that type of coach and his type intensity head up the new Bronco’s! Yes the Broncos are victims of a lot of bad decisions by Shanny over the years. But one thing that Shanny never possessed, IMHO, was Intensity! And you can see that’s been very apparent over the last few years. Shanny has always said that at this level a Pro player has to motivate himself and a lot of that is true. But when I played football in HS and Collage, It was the coach who got me either Motivated or Angry that the got the job done! I’ve never, EVER seen Shanny get in someone’s face and call them out. Football is an emotional game in addition to X’s & O’s, and a great coach has to be able to tap into a players emotions to get them to be their best. That is what this team has been lacking in a major way. No Grit-!! I’m so happy we have an owner who has some balls and wants this team to win and this town to have a great team. GO PAT-!! & Go after Bill Cowher-!!

by Xinnix on Dec 31, 2008 8:47 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I'll have to disagree...

Perhaps Shanahan was not an energetic coach, but if you really think he lacked intensity, you have not been watching the same Broncos I have. Perhaps I’m delving into semantics…I understand Shanny isn’t an in-your-face type guy. But his steely glare is about as intense as it gets. When a ref makes a bad call or a running back fumbles the ball, there is nothing worse than the Shanahan Death Stare that is sure to follow. And maybe encouragement is better than fear to some…

Just remember that Bill Cowher went 3 years without a playoff appearance before he won his Super Bowl.

by Douglas A. Lee on Dec 31, 2008 9:54 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree

We need a defensive minded HC. Leave the offense with consistency in coaching staff. Must have a GM like Pioli to manage the ship.

by BroncoConvert on Dec 31, 2008 9:56 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Pioli and Spagnuolo!

My choices. Bowlen will never again let one person be both GM and HC. Nor will any other NFL owner, IMO.

To bear up under loss, to fight the bitterness of defeat and the weakness of grief, to be victor over anger, to smile when tears are close, to resist evil men and base instincts, to hate evil and to love love, to go on when it would seem good to die, to seek after the glory and the dream, to look up with unquenchable faith in something evermore about to be, that is what any man can do, and so be great.

Zane Grey

by bradley on Dec 31, 2008 10:02 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Spags I would be for if we can't get Cowher, but need Pioli if that is the case.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Dec 31, 2008 10:04 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Well said

We all knew there was some, but I didn’t know there was that much nepotism going on. That really bothers me, so I’m glad that Bowlen is making a change and yes I agree that this needs to change too.

Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960

by Darin H on Dec 31, 2008 9:21 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

WOW

I have only been a member of MHR for the last eight months, but this is one of the finest posts I have read in my short time here. Thank you for the insight and the brilliant writing. Your points are appreciated and worthy of much respect. I’d recommend this post 1,000 times if I were able.

by Douglas A. Lee on Dec 31, 2008 9:55 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

NO WONDER THIS SITE ROCKS

There’s nothing but great stuff always coming from MHR—excellent post. This is why I go to you guys (& ladies) before going anywhere else. Excellent perspective, informative writing, very smart members.

I hate to say it, but you’re turning me around on this Shanny thing. I love him for what he brought me, and I’d even endure a few more years of mediocre play, but Bowlen is a business man in an incredibly competitive field, and you can never settle—even when sympathy and adoration begin to cloud your pragmatic foundations.

I think it’s safe to say everyone will be energized by this move—players, coaches, staff, front office, media, and fans… including Shanahan.

by Broncsbomber on Dec 31, 2008 10:15 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Post

This reminds me a little of the Christmas family party after the drinks start piling up. First there is a slight against an overweight aunt, who returns with a jab about infidelity, and before you know it is a family brawl.

\I whole heartedly agree that there needs to be some house cleaning within the organization.

Excellent post and rec’d.

There is no 'Ctrl' button on Chuck Norris's computer. Chuck Norris is always in control.
Chuck Norris destoryed the periodic table because he only recognizes the element of surprise.

by nickt84 on Dec 31, 2008 10:40 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

nepotism

I’d wondered about this for some time also. Dennison worked out and I had little faith he would. The Broncos, ie, Bowlen needs to establish the football identity he wants for his team (like Pittsburg) and hire people who can “git-R-done” in perpertuity.

Orangeman

by corangemanr on Dec 31, 2008 11:27 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

well

are you new to the way the NFL works? If you think Denver is the only team in the NFL that does this you are sadly mistaken. You can say there are nepotism laws but that does not apply to the NFl, its a private organization. You may be correct that some of the former players never had coaching experience. But you also fail to understand that they may know more about coaching than you are willing to give them credit for. For example I went to a football camp as a kid and I was taught by Steve Watson, he was extemely knowledgeable and I learned a lot from him. So you do have good points but as your earlier nepo post I disagree with a lot of your insunations.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Dec 31, 2008 11:28 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Just because everyone else is doing it...

you know the rest. If dysfunctional nepotism is rampant in any league or industry, companies that get rid of it and hire the best people will rise to the top. However, I agree with you that just because there is nepotism doesn’t necessarily mean it’s dysfunctional. If you have a guy that is very talented and his son is as well and they work well with each other, then it works out quite well. Or just because Steve Watson played for Mike doesn’t mean he’s not a helluva coach.

I simply wasn’t aware to the level of it in the organization, or the NFL, and was surprised when I read this post. If the nepotism was dysfunctional to some degree, it may help explain Mr. Bowlen’s “gut feeling”. Something that you just get the sense of as you work in an organization from day to day… then one day it hits you like a ton of bricks.

I guess I’m still trying to come to grips with this and reaching for an explanation because this situation doesn’t add up to me. Sure 2+2 and 3+1 equal four, but to me 2+2=5 here. He’s obviously a great coach, his personnel moves have gotten better in the past couple of years, with the comments from players, he hadn’t lost the locker room, the team showed improvement this year, etc. I just don’t get it, and the press conference muddied the waters even more. I hope this gut feeling of Pat’s works out for the best. Regardless, I’m excited to see how it all plays out.

"Choose the sword, and you will join me. Choose the ball and you join your mother, in death. You don’t understand my words, but you must choose. So… come boy, choose life or death."

by ButteBronco on Dec 31, 2008 2:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool

But look at the Goodmans. They are just as responsible for the 2006-7-8 drafts. I think too much stock is put into this idea of it running wild. The bottom line if you cant coach you will not last, period. I just feel until a real thorough study is done, using the Denver Broncos as a platform for this is offbase. Not all great players are great coaches. Good players to marginal players are better coaches because they had to learn the game, study harder and prepare better. Look, I dont think Elway would be a good coach, he was gifted with skills not everyone can or will ever have. Now look at Kubiak. He earned everything he has gotten. He studied hard, learned from Elway, Shanny, Reeves, Seifert, ect and has become a great coach. Some players can and some cant.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Dec 31, 2008 5:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally Agree

When someone asked Bowlen if Elway would have a position in the new staff, my first thought was “Based on what?” Sure, he’s a hof QB and an awesome player, but what does he know about coaching or running an organization? I have the same thoughts when I here people say that he should run for public office.

In my younger days, I was considered a pretty good skier (not even close to great, but pretty good) and people would always ask me to teach them. It turns out I’m a lousy teacher. I had know idea how to convey what I was doing on skis to someone. I couldn’t understand why someone couldn’t just put on skis and do what comes naturally.

I’m not saying Elway couldn’t be a great teacher, but as far as I know the only coaching he has done was when he was Jack’s QB coach at Cherry Creek (and how much of that was an “honorary” position).

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 3, 2009 4:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

NFL as a family business, rate versus total

Interesting post. However, it seems to assume that every organization of every scale must be run as a corporate meritocracy. However, there are many smaller family businesses that compete very well. I’m sure there is an organizational size where a family business model doesn’t work, but I’m not sure an NFL team/coaching staff is so large that it cannot work. Clearly Shanahan liked the family model and had his own children involved. Kyle Shanahan had one of the highest rated offenses in the league, so something must have worked there. Rex Ryan coordinates the highest-ranked defense in the NFL, and he is a coach’s son.

Also, the fact that Denver has 5 former players does not imply that Denver hires former players at a higher rate than other teams, as Shanahan has coached here a long time. I’m too lazy to check Tenessee’s web site to see if Jeff Fisher has a similar ratio.

by Snaggins on Dec 31, 2008 5:02 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great post holden...

words have always come easy for me, but I’m still at a loss over this, and still feel sort of like my parents just got a divorce. Can’t bring myself to blame either one, and have alot of respect for both. Just want to get through this, and the anticipation is killing me. Used to think the wait untill the draft was the worst, now I know better.

Happy New Year to all!

by donbok1 on Jan 1, 2009 1:16 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

DRAFT

Well this has been quite a weak for Broncos fans. I have some ideas fro the draft and would love to hear somebodys opinion, on my opinion. 1st round I think we should try and get the LB from USC in am not sure how to spell it but amougha is his name. 2nd round grab the best safety available, and 3rd round take a look at the stud running back out of Colorado ST. He would be perfect for the system. Any other ideas.

by Tomeboy58801 on Jan 1, 2009 12:03 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Agree about the Family Circle

Like most Coaching Staff members, they are there because the HC believes they are or should be the best he can get. In this case the Family Affairs are in place because of Shanahan. I truly believe this is part of the reasons that Bowlen let Shanny go. Mike had too much authority and hiring lesser qualified people than what he may have been able to hire, is certainly part of his demise. It wasn’t just Tutens, Slowiks, and Goodmans. Lets not forget about Bates Sr, and the mess he put the defense in. We are still recovering from “the experiment”. I believe the only reason Jim Bates was given the shot was because of Jeremy Bates. Shanny had to let Jim Bates go, but still wanted to retain him remember? Jim Declined, and Shanny promoted his assistant.

I have a rant ready about Jeremy Bates as well, but I’ll save it for another post. It doesnt bother me with ex players staying in the organization as developing coaches. Watson, Dennison, and Ryan have been around a long time, but how did Dennison end up as the OL Coach from Special Teams. Watson started as WR Coach then ST the Assistant HC. How about Ryan? Ryan was a Linebacker/ LB Coach, then moved over to coach in the offense. Bradford as Secondary Coach surprises me and always has. I have no Idea how good a Coach he is, but as a player he was terrible. Im not saying that a bad player can’t coach, but it is certainly another position coach that is part of that Family circle, and as bad as Denvers secondary is, I can rightfully question the Coaching Staff.

Tuten is another Shanny hire. His top assistant is Greg Saporta. Tuten and Saporta are long time College buddies and started as trainers in the college ranks. Here is a very fair question: “With all the onfield injuries this year to players, is Tutens conditioning program failing?” Obviously, the injuries have surmounted and we’re talking many basic injuries that may have been avoided providing being in better condition. I’m just asking the question and I think it’s fair.

As much as I hate to lose Shanny, I will not miss the supporting cast of Mr French, Jody, and Buffy or the rest of the Family Affair.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jan 1, 2009 1:06 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

"how did Dennison end up as the OL Coach from Special Teams"

Dennison was a very smart LB for the Broncos in the 80’s – not big, not fast. He has some kind of advanced degree. He was hired by Shanahan to work on special teams, then when Alex Gibbs started to burn out, Dennison was made his assistant. When Gibbs left, Dennison took over as OL coach.
With his overall background, he should maybe be considered for the HC position.

Anyone looking for a sign will find one. JB Freeman

by bradley on Jan 2, 2009 11:39 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

he is

and he knows this team/organization inside out. dark horse candidate? i would love to retain him at oc/line, but this would be quite a leap for him. not out of the question, though.

hear me, perpetrators of bread crime, your punishment is at hand.
taste my blintzkrieg!
all i want for xmas is blitzen.

by davecheffy on Jan 3, 2009 10:49 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Dennison

Denver Post is reporting that Dennison will be interviewed for HC next Tuesday. Dennison played LB for the Broncos from 82-90, and has been a coach with the Broncos since 95, first as special teams coach, then O line, and lately he’s been assistant OC or something. He has a master’s degree in engineering.

Anyone looking for a sign will find one. JB Freeman
All signs fail in time of drought. James M. Green

by bradley on Jan 3, 2009 11:29 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Very well researched article.

I always appreciate good facts, which this post highlighted by showing the history and composition of the staff. I don’t necessarily agree with the conclusions, as it is common for high risk enterprises to recruit and retain personnel that the upper management has a higher level of comfort with.

I suppose the counter to my argument above is that upper management has to be able to step out of their zone of comfort to make the organization grow. The constant search for the right balance is what makes being a football fan such an interesting hobby. Kind of like a steroids boosted version of the search for a yin and yang.

The future looks so bright that we're going to need blue and orange sunglasses!

by Arctic Bronco on Jan 3, 2009 12:10 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

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