Football University - The Coming Storm (Magic 3)

Welcome to another installment of Football University
Today we take a look at the next evolution in football, which is the emergence of the TE, the elimination of the FB, and the coming of the feared 3 TE systems and formations.
Last week we discussed the 3 major steps in the progression of football.
- The forward pass (a play innovation)
- Allowing OL to extend hands and arms (a rule change)
- The West Coast Offense and the Cover-2 counters (systems)
Click "Read More" below to enter the class. Enjoy!
Before we go much further, please read the following link from The Sporting News:
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=315658
Here are some thoughts I wrote about that article:
The article say a lot of nice things about Tony Scheffler while discussing the discovery of TEs as a valuable commodity. But for now, consider this:
- The evolution of football is such that TEs should be becoming more prominent. The last great offensive system craze was the "west coast offense". It was countered by teams running versions of the "cover two". The answer to the cover two isn't so much a scheme, but a position. TEs are almost designed to operate in the seam, which is the weak area of the cover two systems.
- Most TEs either block well or catch well, but all have to do both to some extent. Can't block? You'd better be a darn good catcher or you can't be a reciever. Can't catch? You'd better be a darn good blocker or you won't get on a team as an o-lineman. The few TEs who do both exceedingly well are a danger to any team. Few things scare a defensive coach than having to guess if the TE is blocking or going for a pass. It can't be schemed for, because you can only guess. The guessing becomes a nightmare when two or three solid TEs are on a team.
Let's be grateful for Scheffler and Graham. And while it is a shame to see Alexander probably unable to return next year (he's IR right now), perhaps Jackson will give us the magic "three TE set" most offensive theorists only dream about. Consider also that Mustard looked good in a dual role at the end of '07.
At that time Styg50 wrote a great question/comment:
Do you see any organizations that are buying this evolutionary idea? Obviously Denver has strong roots in the West coast offense, so I would guess that Shanny has a somewhat decent grasp, at the very least, of what is the system's weak points. And Denver has been this close to fielding the "magic of three." But do you think it is a matter of course, that is, players come and go, and we happen to be caught in a cycle where some of our best talent happens to be TE? Or is it a conscientous choice?
I look around the league, and I see outdated notions of the TEs effectiveness (KC), as well as attempts to line the TE up like a dual threat WR (IND, BAL, CLE, etc.) What are the indicators that a team is looking at the TE in the light your speaking of? Do they want to use particular formations to disguise passing? Are they using more or less motion to achieve matchups and get defensive clues?
I have been thinking about Shanahan's 'style' of system, and I have been thinking about the nature of offensive zone-blocking. I came to the conclusion that Shanahan sees the role of the offensive system as something where the emphasis is on execution, and secondarily scheming. In other words, he favors a system where if the players do it right, i.e. the way they do it in practice, than it doesn't matter what the defense does, or how they adjust, you will still be highly successful. I suppose you could contrast this with a system that puts players in certain positions to read certain keys, and then organically changes via the what the coach is able to see. Obviously, the latter happens all the time, even with Shanahan, and scheming is still an imortant ingredient to success. But it seems that Shanny is primarily interested in fielding a system that when executed properly will beat anyone...
I am probably generalizing way too much. Maybe you could set me straight on that, as I don't think I am being very clear...
At this point I want to share with you the answer I gave at that time, followed by diagrams of plays to illustrate the lethality of the Magic 3. I've also added some additional thoughts to further flesh out the 3TE approach.
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The history of the TE was pretty boring until the 80s. At that point Joe Gibbs schemed in an additional TE for QB protection. Before that, the role of the TE as simply block and (rarely) catch. In ancient history it was simply to block.
Then came the 90's and more emphasis on catching. Our own S. Sharpe took the position to newer and better places. In fact, the AFC West has enjoyed elites at this position for awhile (and that may have a little to do with AFC West dominance in many years), including Gates and Gonzales. Shockey has been a threat for the NYG.
In the (recent) past teams haven't emphasised the position for a simple reason. Why get a guy whose specialty isn't catching? Let's leave the catching to our WRs and give the QB added time to pass with a blocking TE. Also (until the position continues to catch on) you'll find most TE archtypes in basketball programs, not college (Gates and Gonzales were basketball products).
But the TE has a future in the league for several reasons that have washed together like a perfect storm.
First, the "cover two" system on defense gains in popularity each year. It is one of the very few systems that is designed to counter the popular "west coast offense". But the TE position (because of alignment next to the tackle, and the physical build of a TE) ends up in the dangerous "seam", where the cover-two is weakest. By the time an opposing defender gets to the TE he has already taken a couple of steps, and is a physical mismatch for the likely swift safeties trying to bring him down.
Second, teams have discovered the many "smoke and mirrors" that can be accomplished with a TE. Line him up next to the RT and defenses don't know if he is going to block or catch (historic). But NOW when a defensive coordinator sees the offense bring in two WRs and one TE he is likely to send in a 4-3 defense. Maybe he should have brought in a third CB because teams (like SD) might line up the TE in the slot! If the poor coordinator calls a nickle for the next formation (3 CBs) the QB audibles to a run, and the TE lines up (or motions) to the RT. In other words, an elite TE ensures a mismatch until a defensive theorist develops a new formation or a new LB archtype.
Third, the recent move by many teams to return to the old 3-4 creates a special opportunity for TEs. The danger with the 3-4 is picking up the blitz. With a two TE set the blockers are already up to the line and facing each OLB. Threat nuetralized. But with two TE sets we quadruple the number of diguised packages the team has available on offense, and with motions, we create a playbook fatter than consideration of all of the other positions combined.
Fourth, teams have discovered that in two TE sets they can compound-multiply the formations and abilities of an offense with alignments never before seen (the revolution has reached this fourth point in the last couple of years, but it still hasn't completly caught on and been fleshed out). No one would have ever lined up or motioned a TE from the line back to a RB position. But it's starting to happen (Denver started the craze of motioning a TE to a FB position on plays a few years ago. The TE can now run block, or fake a screen set up while the QB boots to the opposite side). More and more the TEs in two sets (or even "twins" with both overloading one side) compound confusion by motioning one TE (the max allowed by the rules) to a slot, near the QB, or to the other side of the line. Is this a heavy run play with three blockers, or a massive pass attack with 5 total eligable and capable receivers?!? Does the defensive coordinator send in a 4-3, or a dime (or even a quarter)? No matter what he does, the offense can audible. Scary. But that isn't the doomsday scenario.
Fifth, the "magic 3 TE theory".
Because competition for TEs isn't harsh right now, and because only a few teams are taking part in the revolution, and because the advanced TE theories haven't trickled down to colleges and even high schools (who have yet to go out of their way to recruit and scheme for the new TE type), it is possible for a very few teams to get the "magic three". Most teams STILL see the TE as nothing more than a safety valve, and look at WRs as the "go to" receivers.
"This is the construct.", Morpheus (The Matrix)

Five o-linemen and a QB. One RB and one WR (weakside). Three TEs to the strongside. For years this formation has been discussed over drinks by coaches as the "dream" or "magic" second coming of classical football. The day when football comes full circle and returns to the 1930s and 40s. The day when an offense is run the way it was always meant to run, but with the modern twist of the forward pass and advanced theories learned for the last century. Many coaches believe this formation will be the future of football, and revolutionize the way the game is played. Defensive coordinators like me consider it a nightmare. It will throw most defensive theory out of the window until a counter can be developed. Why is the formation considered by football theorists to be magic?
The formation looks like a goal line formation. The only way to stop the run is to (likewise) set up a goal line defense. But what happens when those three TEs (all a half step back from the line) are eligible to catch the ball? The subtle tricks are just as dangerous. Let's say an opposing team lines up at least one CB to cover on of the TEs. in a run play that CB probably gets knocked on his butt. Not impressed yet?
How about this. In the formation there is still room for motion. There is also room for one or more of the TEs to line up wide. How about one wide, one slot, one back with the RB, then a motion brings the wide in against the line? All of a sudden a pass defense with multiple DBs faces a "jumbo" run play.
The new formations and the new approach would revolutionize many aspects of football. For example, most teams might have one very good CB in a formation (to go against the WR), but place more emphasis on a CB/LB hybrid player to match with TEs on the line. The safety position would likewise problably drop to one on the field. The FB would vanish all together. TEs who further specialize might become "wings" instead of "TEs". The TE and RB become the emphasis in offense, not the QB or WR. "Wings" would not only catch and block like modern TEs, but run and block, further leading to confusion.
Another drastic change forseen is that the emphasis would change from "run vs. pass" on offenses to "power vs. finesse". The new system could be run as a powerfull smash mouth tool, or it could rely on deception and timing.
Would it take over the NFL and displace other systems?
No, it would not. Even the great "west coast system" is only run by a third of modern NFL teams. As defensive masterminds dig up their century old playbooks to find clues as to how to stop the "magic 3", other teams will force defensive coaches not to overcompensate. If a defense is now built (in personel and play book) to counter the "3", it won't now be as effective against the current systems.
Several teams have a good TE for the future. A few have two (Denver). One team is close to getting to three (PITT), but isn't there yet. That PITT is doing as well as they are (just behind NE and INDY) is a testement that they are moving in the right direction, as well as a recent SB victory. But they still haven't fully implemented the system. Because they use the "erhardt-perkins" system (a smash mouth system) they are positioned take advantage of the "three TEs" if their new head coach continues in the direction of Cowher.
In Denver's first game this year, for the first few plays, Mike flirted with it for Denver. He then switched to conventional ball. It's on his mind. Mike is a lot of fun though. He's also played around with the old "option" plays seen in college too. My guess is that Mike would run a finesse system, while a team like PITT might run the smash mouth version.
Notably, the Patriots used the 3TE for a series in the last regular season game in '07 against the NYGs.
Who is trying it?
PITT is trying to move to the "3", as is Denver. Other teams approach it and flirt with it.
Is it done on purpose, or do teams realize they have the personnel?
Both. Most teams don't want an extra "safety valve" when they can get something better. But when a team realizes they have a dangerous duo they seem to want to scheme them in. On the other hand, Mike and Bill (Cowher) seem to have been loading up on TEs more than other teams, even though they haven't gone all out (both teams have run a few three TEs in games, perhaps experimenting).
Let's take a look at some plays. The first play is an isolation pass play. The concept is to spread out the defense and get as many 1:1 match-ups as possible.

Here we see the WR and the 2TE streak deep. The 1TE and the RB bolt for opposite sides, and the 3TE takes his defender (likely a CB) towards the center of the field. If the defense is in zone they have to hope that every zone is covered. This is not likely, since the offense will have been pounding the ball with a goal line looking foramtion for several plays.
But what if the defense goes man?

This looks complicated, but don't worry. The black arrows are the pass routes, the red arrows are the defensive counters, and the blue circles show who is covering whom. Note that I've also enclosed (in each blue circle) the ratio of defenders to receivers.
This is how the play turns out, assuming the defense reads the play and reacts idealy (not likely in any play).
The WR streak gets covered by the CB and the FS, who moves to stop the deep threat. The 2TE takes the SAM LB deep on a streak (a probable mismatch in speed). The SS has to break strongside to cover this streak threat.
Now we have the center of the field cleared where the 3TE takes the other CB. If the defense has been getting run into the ground the 3TE is probably being covered by a 4th LB much slower than a CB. The coverage is one on one.
The 1TE takes the MLB to the right edge of the field, one on one. The RB takes the WILL to the left sideline, one on one.
Other (more likely) pass plays include screens to the strong side (where the three TEs are already blocking downfield), as well as multiple strong side floods (where receivers crowd an area).
How about the run game plays? Let's take another look at the base 3TE formation.

In the above diagram, the 1TE can line up behind the RG, behind and centered to the RG/RT, or behind the RT. The 3TE can motion to any of the spots just mentioned. As the OL zoneblocks with a rightward slant, the TEs nearest the line join the zone, while TEs behind the line look for opponents to take out (much like a FB would).
The opponent's WILL has to line up near the LT to account for the rare running play that goes weakside, so he is out of the play. The 3TE is likely run blocking a CB, and this is a mismatch.
There are more potential formation combinations that proceed from motions in a 3TE formation than any other formation in football. Because of the dual role of the TE position, the formations become more difficult to adjust to. Here's a simple example. Looking at the above diagram, picture the 1TE motioning to the right sideline before the play. Question: Does the defense
- Take the CB on the 3TE out to cover the 1TE, while switching the MLB to one of the remaining TEs (leaving the SAM to figure out his coverage), or
- Have the MLB follow his man all the way to the edge of the field, leaving the middle of the formation exposed to a run.
Another possibility is to line up the 3TE wide or slot. The defense preps for a pass, but the 3TE motions up against the 2TE (who is against the RT). Uh oh, jumbo run formation.
I've only touched on very basic and extreme examples. In the hands of a coach actually drawing up plays the mismatches can be further exploited, the formations expanded on, and the obligatory motions improved on. The bottom line is that whatever the defense shows, the audible takes the play in the completly opposite direction.
As stated earlier, coaches from offices to pubs to seminars have used the Magic 3 as a puzzle for defensive coaches to ponder. The day that a team has the depth at TE and the courage to move beyond the current experiments we see here and there (and more and more), that will be the day that defensive coordinators fear most.
~~~~~~~~
Next week, a look at the '08 defensive system under Slowik for the Broncos.
Any questions about the Magic 3 or any facet of football Xs and Os, fire away! Remember, this is a safe place to ask questions. If you are just learning the game this is a safe place to ask. Take care!
3 recs |
58 comments
Comments
Madden.
by ejruiz on Feb 10, 2008 6:46 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad the...
I don't know how realistic the games are (they look like fun!), but I remember watching an interview with Coach Gruden before the TB/oak SB. The interview was about the letters he gets from gamers that insist they can assist coach for TB and be effective, based on their gaming experience. He read some of the letters, and it was pretty funny.
As much as I miss coaching I should probably do some gaming. I'm afraid I would get addicted though. I used to play Harpoon and games from the Close Combat series all the time. Right now I just don't have the time with my current work. If I did I would probably give Madden a try, as well as Civ 4 and Empire at War (both of which I've seen at a friend's and was thoroughly impressed by). Not sure I could keep up with the young guys with the quick fingers though!
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 2:00 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
The game for you HT
Any WWII sim that lets you play as the leader of australia, or bolivia or even Claaas' Denmark is pretty cool in my opinion... all in all you can play as any of 200 and some countries. Impressive.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 11, 2008 2:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds Awesome.
by ejruiz on Feb 11, 2008 5:23 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll look into it.
(Nothing certain yet; just hoping)
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 10:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks HT! A lot to think about and I'm indulging.
Some reactions which I'll put into numbers:
1.The diagraming works well, as does the theory behind it.
- With Graham, Scheffler, and Jackson (who hopefully will return from his injuries in good shape) the Broncos have the personnel to put this into practice. Mustard, if he stays on the roster, will also help out by being a devastating run blocker who can also work the flats.
- Wouldn't a defense compensate by putting in more linebackers, assuming that they would be smaller and quicker (ie. Ian Gold) who would be able to withstand the run and be quick enough to cover the TEs in passing situations? Mind you, not every team has 'backers' of this type, but wouldn't they become a priority - also wouldn't players who are solid safetys in college (like Thomas Davis of CAR who was an SS at Georgia) be switched at the pro level?
- Why has Denver let so much talent at the TE possition get away? Putzier, Desmond Clark, Billy Miller, and Chamberlain (the first time) come to mind?
- If Denver were to implement the magic three, could Marshall be one of the three? He is a wideout, and it would be folly to make him what he isn't. But... with a speedster on the outside pulling double coverage from one CB and the FS, wouldn't it be lethal to have him matched up in single coverage with an LB or with a defense's #2 corner on most plays?
by jadunn on Feb 10, 2008 9:46 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Answers
- n/a
- Agreed; and Mustard looked surprisingly good to me doing some catching in Graham's absence.
- It's easier said than done for a defense to readjust their defense just to account for what would probably be less than five teams running a Magic 3. The adjustment would also not benefit a team against the majority of remaining teams that would NOT be running a Magic 3. I'm not a fan of interchanging SAFs and LBs for the most part, but that's personal opinion and there are good coaches who disagree. But despite what I've written so far on this point, I think your suggestion is (like Styg's below) the best I've heard.
- While Denver has let talent go, they still have talent (and depth) at TE currently. If letting good players go has put us at the current position of having a solid offense (which I think we have) then I won't be critical of the eggs we've broken to make an omelette. Now the defense is a different matter. : )
- I would still keep Marshall at WR. He is a good blocker, and a terrific receiver. But his value at WR seems much more effective to me, and I wouldn't want a good talent WR taking the number of hits a TE would take when run blocking (which would be the majority of plays for the TEs).
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 1:49 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good answers..
Thanks again, and I may take you up on the idea of posting diaries in a couple of weeks once I've gotten the N.C. bar exam out of the way. Cheers,
JAD
by jadunn on Feb 12, 2008 4:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
First, good luck on the bar!
Because TEs are lighter and faster than most OLmen, they are more in line with the zone block build and (thus) are bigger contributers in run blocking than in a more common man-block system.
Teams that don't run zone block wouldn't have as much run blocking technique with TEs as a zone block team, since the zone block is easier for a TE than other systems are.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 4:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it me...
If I am a defensive coordinator (say in SD, oak, or KC) and I see Denver beat up on somebody with 3 TEs (think some teams weren't holding their breath a bit when Shanny came out playing a little with it this year?), I am telling anyone who will listen "Get me some safeties, ASAP!!"
3TEs=white magic
3-4 safeties=black magic
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 10, 2008 9:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Good point
The catch is trying to build a team this way, as well as being built for the rest of the offensive systems that would still be around.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 1:34 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
First: Great Article...
I agree with HT however, in saying that a 1 corner, 1 safety defense with 5 "linebackers" might also be the type of solution that evolves. Think 4 D Line - 5 LB alignment in the box, with a CB on their true wide receiver, and a SAF in deep zone to help the CB and prevent the play from getting behind him. The LB would probably be a mix of mostly speed guys with one or two big run-stoppers. That way the speed LBs could essentially absorb the TE blocks, and the other LBs could flow to the ball to make the tackle. I guess really, the D would be more of a 4-2 look, with 1 CB, 1 SAF, and 3 LB in "coverage", 4 D line, and 2 more LB set behind the line; if that makes sense.
by hai17 on Feb 11, 2008 1:45 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
I think that defensive line play will become even more of a focus against a "Magic 3" offense. While it currently is important, having a D-Linemen that requires double-teams would be even bigger when you have 3 TE on the field. Unless all of the O-Line is accounted for, I don't think that the defense has much of a chance. Also, defending against the "Magic 3" would probably require more of a holding style D-Line. The linemen would have to focus on absorbing blockers to shield the LB, so on pass plays it would be essential for at least one LB to blitz, since the D-Line isn't pushing up field.
by hai17 on Feb 11, 2008 2:00 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
We have the smartest members at MHR
One problem that underscores all of our solutions is that as we recruit players to counter the Magic 3, we end up with less players at positions to counter the remaining (majority of) teams that are still running two to three WRs. In other words, we lose a lot of CBs on our roster.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 2:05 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
In the reloading season you some times hear players say, that they are better players because they practice against the best recievers or cornerbacks in the league. If Denver turned to the magic three, our defense would not get to practice very much against the type of offense they will meet on game day.
by Jeeeeens on Feb 11, 2008 3:51 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no
On the one hand, the team would get a lot of good technical skill training against the run. Run defense preparation at the player level is very reactive, and the players wouldn't have very much to gain from seeing any certain system in practice.
On pass defense, there would be some issue. Pass defense prep for an opposing team's system at the player level does involve some play reading and adjustment. From a purely technical skill level the players (CBs and SAFs) could continue to run individual drills. But you're right, some adjustment would have to be made.
It is possible that the secondary would practice vs the B team's QB and WR's, While the DL and LBs would tangle with the offensive starters.
There would be an effect, but it would be mitigated by two variables:
- The other team's preparation against the Magic 3 would be even less than the defense's practice against the opponents offense, and
- The majority of the prep is at the coach's level (in terms of formation, play creation, and play calling). The players for the most part need to just follow the scheme they are given.
Good thinking!
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 10:47 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good class
by Squeaky on Feb 11, 2008 5:15 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely!
Hang in there. You probably already know more than you think.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 10:49 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Idea for future classes
As fans some of the first concepts we isolate in sports are particular "scenarios": 2 minute offenses, prevent to protect leads, goalline or short yardage situations, time consuming drives... I think each and everyone of these concepts would be deserving of an integrated class that looks at what they are consituted of exactly, methods for executing and methods for stopping each, as well as any coaching analysis that could give a fan that little extra "something" to watch as the situation comes to bear.
I know I would really enjoy something like that, and they are great ways of teaching and reiterating the basics while still providing something to readers and students of the game who are looking for subjects of deeper study.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 11, 2008 11:05 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks! Great idea.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 12:37 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff
by Silverblood on Feb 11, 2008 5:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like...
Oh, wait a second! I see you listed on the faculty list! You should write an article when you get a chance!
by Steve Nichols on Feb 11, 2008 10:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
At Football University!
(The university you are attending is fictional. Just play along with me before anyone else figures it out).
; )
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 12:40 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I know it's fictional
by Silverblood on Feb 12, 2008 7:14 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Question Prof!
I really like to look at real examples to make sense of things. So let's look at our own guys: Our #1 TE Graham going against our #1 LB DJ: they would be pretty well matched in the run or pass.
Our #2 TE Scheff: A LB can line up near Tony. If Tony stays in to run block, then the LB has a small edge (Tony isn't a good blocker). If Tony starts to release on a pass route, then the LB can bump him and allow a 'covering' Saf to move up and cover Tony.
Either Mustard or Jackson as the #3 TE: Mustard is a big guy, but he is slow enough for a #3 LB to cover. Jackson is more of a receiver, but he is a smaller TE (235 pounds), so most SS can easily match him in the run and pass game.
What I am trying to say is that, simply having 3 good TE's doesn't seem enough to me. They need to have certain qualities. Looking at my analysis shows why Shanny only toyed with the idea... he still doesn't have the pieces otherwise he would use it already.
The way I see it at least one TE has to be a great receiver and a great blocker--Call him #1--a very rare specimen. The other two TEs don't need to be as perfect as #1 so long as they balance each other out. #2 TE can be a Great receiver & ok blocker. #3 TE can be a great blocker & ok receiver.
I see Graham as the #3 (by my definition above). Tony can fill the #2 roll if he improves his receiving AND blocking. In a "Magic 3" Jackson and Mustard would be backups, nothing more. And we still don't have that key TE for the #1 roll.
Now getting the ideal trio of TEs like Gates(#1), Graham(#3) and Winslow(#2) is VERY hard. Some people might argue that three WRs with the same quality would be just as dangerous. However the real key in my mind is the versatility of the TE position and the ability to disguise things and create misdirection. That is the real devastating magic of it. I would take a offense with 3 top notch TE's over one with 3 top notch WR's any day!
That said, we should remember that finding the TEs to fit this scheme is harder than finding good wideouts. Most receiving TEs cant block at all, and the great blocking TEs are becoming rare (they are falling out of favor in college).
BTW, Rumor has it that Shockey is on the block. If we can get him this off-season, should we do it?
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 5:34 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
One more point.
Two nice DTs to be solid inside. Two great DEs to draw double teams on the edge. A couple of speedy outside LBs like DJ. Safeties that can dish-out some big hits... sounds like a solid, but normal, defense to me!
Is it me, or is it 50% personnel, 30% team chemistry, 20% scheme?
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 5:44 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Point
by hai17 on Feb 12, 2008 9:57 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't agree with you.
And how can the O-line double team the DE? The DE is lining up outside the OT. The DTs are lined up over guard. The center can't be part of a double team on a DE.
And if there are 2 good DEs, then it is just logically impossible to double team both using O-linemen.
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 2:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Hai makes a good point though.
Your opponent is lining up in a run formation (goal line looking) and has been battering you with runs on 90 to 95% of his plays. Do you pass rush your DEs or blitz any LBs against that? Doing so leads to even less run defense.
So it that sense it certainly punishes a team from blitzing. Also, not every TE has to go out on a pass (and the defense doesn't know who will be blocking or catching). And the pass routes can be short enough (read West Coast) that the rushers don't have the time to get to the QB.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 5:13 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
My point is that the DEs lineup on the outside shoulder of OTs and attack the backfield. The DE has a chance to make a tackle for loss if the RB comes his way (the gaps from OT to the last TE on that side). The motion is sort of like a pass rush.
The catch is that the DTs have to handle the inside run (with MLB help).
If some TEs run block, then most LBs can match up nicely.
If some TE runs a short route (ala the WCO) then the LB lined up over him can keep up and cover the short zone.
The seam in the cover-2 is a bit down field, and it requires a speedy TE who can beat the LB (and get open underneath the deep safety).
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 6:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
My idea was...
by hai17 on Feb 12, 2008 9:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
Another point is that our TE is lined up next to the OT in this formation, so he could get in the way.
Maybe if the OT is fast enough, but he has to make sure that the G helps him on the inside, which means the C had better take care of the DT... To me, it's all about the type of personnel a team has.
by amirebram on Feb 13, 2008 12:49 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
by hai17 on Feb 13, 2008 9:37 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good questions!
Remember this is a run heavy scheme. The advantage to pairing the Magic 3 with a zone block system is that TEs are lighter and faster than most OLmen, and thus come close to fitting the zone block build.
The passes would be very infrequent, and the heart of the system is forcing the defense to try and stop the run. The DEs won't be pass rushing much if they are getting pounded on 90 to 95% of plays being run blocked.
The pass rush doesn't concern the 3 TE systems since they are basicaly showing goal line run. A team that rushes DEs against what is likely a run play in a goal line formation loses even more yardage. But you are right that speedy LBs are part of the answer. I just think you really want bigger, run stopping DEs just like you would see against any goal line type formation.
As big of a fan as I am of the Magic 3, I don't advocate getting another big name TE at this time. For one, two TEs are a pretty good start. We also have multiple needs on defense. As good as the scheme is (in theory), it will probably come about several years from now. But you DO see teams experiment on a drive here and there, and it is in the back of the minds of coaches.
Also keep in mind another point that gives the scheme some complexity. The 1, 2, and 3 TEs can be mixed and matched in their positions. It isn't simple enough that a CB can just line up on the 3TE, because the best receiving TE may line up at any of the positions on any play. Wherever the opposing defense lines up their people for optimal matches the offense simply audibles. (Audibles are a key to the offense in the system as well).
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 3:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't talking Broncos
To continue, I think the two big parts are good blocking and Speed. Slow TE's who have good hands won't be much help, since they dont' create the mismatch we are talking about.
It really has to be a power&speed.
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 3:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 4:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Zone-Blocking
With the ZB we often spread the defense and then attack them, or we use a lot of misdirection to avoid the pound for pound type of power football. Creating a bunched up formation with 3 TE's would also lead to a more concentrated Def, hence a need for a bit more muscle.
A real example of this is the Indy game week 4. We used a lot of 3 TE sets, with Marshall/Walker as the lone receiver. At the begining of the game we really stuffed the ball down Indy's throat. But as the game went on and when the run became obvious Indy managed to stuff the run.
A side note: I think it is wrong to say that ZB isn't about power. I think we need to say it is about smarter/more efficient use of power, which is done by using athletic guys. A powerful AND athletic lineman would make the ZB system that much better (see Zimmerman or Nalen).
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 6:50 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You could go either way.
When the defense starts getting concentrates that's when a pass can pop out. In the game against Indy we didn't vary the run plays much. We also didn't pass much out of the formation.
I very much agree with your side note.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 10:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Passing...
The QB rolls out to the right, behind the RG, RT and 3 TEs who are slanting right. The WR does his thing. On the other side, the C, LG and LT go down field like a bubble screen with the Running back running right behind them.
That's two options. After 3 Mississippi, if the heat is on, one of the TEs lets go of his block and create a naked screen.
Sounds fun, but needlessly complicated. It's more of a double trick play.
by amirebram on Feb 13, 2008 12:43 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Two thoughts
- Most of the plays we can draw up (even drawn up by a former high school coach) look great on paper, but might not cut it at the pro level. If it's a trick play it's even "trickier" to imagine success. I like the idea, but I can imagine the two of us going to Mike Shanahan with our proposal and being escorted out of his office by security! : )
- On a more serious note; the problem I see with the play is the idea of the left side of the line blocking the screen. On a well executed bubble you want the blockers to have some space and time to execute. For instance, in a 3 wide right WR set the 3 WRs are lined up against DBs who expect them to go into a route, but instead the WRs hit them with a run block. In our plan we're asking for a bubble against a defensive line already anticipating the run block as well as knowing who the run blockers are (the off line).
by Steve Nichols on Feb 13, 2008 4:34 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Shockey
Even with Kevin Boss, the Giants would probably want a first round pick, or a second and a player or future draft pick. How many takers for that? I guess that's why the G-Men won't actively shop Shockey.
by Russ on Feb 12, 2008 9:44 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is the data
Signed a five-year, $26 million contract extension through 2011.
I say, we give them Foxy and a 5th round pick.
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 2:49 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
If all it takes
by Russ on Feb 12, 2008 3:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Too many other needs
As good as the Magic 3 is in theory, I don't think a coach will risk his career on the experiment on purpose. It will likely come about because a team that already has two good TEs continues to experiment and has success with it, and a third TE on the team emerges. This is likely to happen some day, since some teams already experiment with it on drives here and there (still mostly on run plays, but not neccassarily on short yardage either).
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 3:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I know
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 3:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Marshall and Stokely could trade off in passing downs (spending most of their time runblocking anyway).
It will take time.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 3:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Great article as usual
- Doesn't one of those TE's need to get up on the line to cover the RT?
- Shockey has been a "throw me the damn ball" type of guy. As talented as he is, the Giants offense was better off without him. If Eli threw a third down pass to someone else and the Giants failed to convert, Shockey would start demanding the ball. Then Eli would start looking for him instead of running the offense. But I think the Giants Super Bowl run will change that. Eli won't feel the pressure to placate him and hopefully Shockey has realized that the offense is more effective when the defense has no idea where the ball is going to end up.
- Any conversation about the evolution of TE's has to include fearless Frank Wycheck. The Oilers/Titans used him in much the way that you describe. He would line up as a conventional TE or as an H back and could go in motion anywhere (I am not sure if he would ever motion into the backfield as a FB). The team used him in all sorts of ways: he caught shovel passes, ran the ball and even passed it occasionally (not including the Music City Miracle)
- It does not surprise me that Shanahan would experiment with this. He has always been someone who prefers to control the game running the ball and then let his passing game feed off of mismatches and other opportunities when the defense adjusts to stop the run. I think it was week 2 vs Oakland, but I remember at least one drive where Denver used a formation that had a TE on the line next to the RT (TE2) and then brought Graham in motion to the TE3 spot. I think they were using a FB as the TE1, or it may have been a second WR to the weak side. But they were able to run very effectively behind the TE's. When I was watching I was wondering what the heck that formation was and now I think I know.
by MattR on Feb 12, 2008 4:36 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff as always
The passes sell because there are so darn many runs that a team really can't afford to pass rush or blitz without getting gashed on the multiple power runs. At any rate, a TE can still be kept in to pass block.
- I agree that Shockey's attitude takes away from his on field value.
- I also agree on Wycheck.
- I'm not sure which game it was, but one of the first games this season Denver used a straight out 3 TE set for a few plays (though not a Magic 3 system). There was no FB on that drive. What you saw may have been that drive, or a Twin TE set with a FB offset strongside (teams do that on occasion).
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 5:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
It was the Oakland game I had in mind
Which brings up a thought: Given the Broncos current roster, could they use Brandon Marshall at the TE3 position?
Also, I am pretty sure in the NFL you have to have seven on the line for every play (pass or run)
by MattR on Feb 12, 2008 6:05 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall
7 on the line - Yes.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 10:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the Indy game
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 6:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Another Questoin for the Prof.
by amirebram on Feb 12, 2008 6:59 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Some do...
Actually, one of the best games that I've ever seen had three tackles lined up on most plays: the 1997 Wild Card game against Miami. Tony Jones and Harry Swayne were the starters, and a young Matt Lepsis was added to the right side for a formation called 'Trey Dolphin Right'. The result? 38-3, and 199 rushing yards for T.D. against a stout Dophins D.
by jadunn on Feb 12, 2008 7:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry......
by jadunn on Feb 12, 2008 7:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
As Jadun points out
by Steve Nichols on Feb 12, 2008 10:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, my point was for goal line stuff
either that or fake it.
by amirebram on Feb 13, 2008 12:35 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Got it.
by Steve Nichols on Feb 13, 2008 4:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

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