Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

Congratulations to Claaaas!

Our member from Denmark, Claaaas, has won the "Offseason Naming Contest"!

We are asking the MHR family to use the winning term, "Reloading Season" when writing about the season formerly know as "offseason".

Please join us in thanking our friend from across the ocean for his winning entry.  Don't feel down if you didn't win this time around.  I'll be offering some contests opportunities on the new Football University series that premiers tomorow....

day one....

of the reloading season.

Congratulations again to Claaaas!  Please move to the United States soon so we can save on prize shipping costs!  : )

Comment 27 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Congrats!!!
I also have a prize for the winner....

by John Bena on Feb 3, 2008 5:59 PM MST reply actions  

I've notified Claaaas by e-mail
I will get you his address as soon as he sends it to me.  As I comment further below, the poor guy probably won't be getting up for several hours, and when he does we Americans will all be fast asleep!  It should probably be around noon his time before we get up to respond!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 3, 2008 6:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Tillykke!
I think that means "Congratulations" in Danish.

by Arctic Bronco on Feb 3, 2008 6:03 PM MST reply actions  

Congrats!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Feb 3, 2008 6:04 PM MST reply actions  

So
Will you be sending him those ladies? That's a lot of shipping ;)
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Feb 3, 2008 6:06 PM MST reply actions  

I'm told...
...that the ladies in question were part of a vacation package from a contest last year at MHR.  I tried to inquire about getting them again to chaperone our winner on a trip again this year, but Hef won't return my calls.

As the gecko from Geico says, "That's a complete dramatization of course.  But you get the point."

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 3, 2008 6:24 PM MST up reply actions  

Ha!
Thats a call i would answer! And the Geiko (car insurance, right?) commercials are great.
From Denmark, so i excuse my self for un-knowing-ness...

by Claaaaas on Feb 4, 2008 12:26 AM MST up reply actions  

In a humorous twist....
...our Danish friend won't even be awake to know he won until hours from now!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 3, 2008 6:25 PM MST reply actions  

Congratulations!
Claaaas now joins the pantheon of Danish heroes, alongside such greats as Hamlet, the Laudrups and many others; Cheers!

by ejruiz on Feb 3, 2008 7:11 PM MST reply actions  

Yup
and that was Shakespeare's tribute to Denmark: "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark" - nice...

How about great minds as Hans Christian Andersen (author) and Niels Bohr (the only person on earth to ever prove Einstein wrong) - has anyone heard of them?

From Denmark, so i excuse my self for un-knowing-ness...

by Claaaaas on Feb 4, 2008 12:32 AM MST up reply actions  

Not What I Was Going For...
I was looking to make a bit of a joke and I don't think there's much humor in Bohr.  That said, I'm a big fan of the Bohr-Einstein debates and, as a former Princetonian, I must reiterate that "God does not play dice with the universe"!  

by ejruiz on Feb 4, 2008 12:55 AM MST up reply actions  

Touché
From Denmark, so i excuse my self for un-knowing-ness...

by Claaaaas on Feb 4, 2008 3:32 AM MST up reply actions  

There it waaaas
I forgot my pass word (btw, Guru, the "email-me-my-pass-word"-function doesn't work...", so i was down to trial and error)

That was a very pleasant surprise. That email at halftime last night (in Denmark, anyway), was the only thing that could top the result of the SB. I certanly enjoyed seeing the Pats get spanked in that epic drama - finally they tasted some of their own medicine = a late game comeback-win.

Just to awoid any confusion, tilykke actually means congratulations - how the heck an Alaskan knows that, i haven't completely figured out... hmm...

/Claus!

From Denmark, so i excuse my self for un-knowing-ness...

by Claaaaas on Feb 4, 2008 12:20 AM MST reply actions  

Alaska has a very strong Scandinavian influence.
The fishermen from the Scandinavian countries pioneered most of the Alaskan fisheries.  I grew up in fishing villages and have fished commercially all my life, even if it was only for a few weekends when I had full-time (aka real) jobs.  

When I was a lad growing up in the Aleutian Islands I assumed that everyone from the Lower 48 was named Ole, Sven or Sveri.  Many of the halibut schooners were sailed from Norway to Alaska at the start of WWII, where they longlined for halibut.  I was shocked to go to Seattle and see people wearing three piece suits and dress shoes instead of rain gear and fishing boots.  Reality can be such a cold cup of coffee!

In spite of my background I never learned Danish words as a sprat, I had to look up "Tilykke" on the internet.

by Arctic Bronco on Feb 4, 2008 9:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Off Topic.
It has been argued by just about every BCS detractor that playoffs give you true champions and provide fairness.  Will someone please explain to me how it was fair for three teams that had already defeated the Giants (in New York, by the way) at different points throughout the season to have to do so again in the playoffs?  Will anyone step up and attempt to claim that the New York Giants were the best team in pro football this season?  Sell the system for entertainment - I agree with it on those grounds, by the way - but don't be so audacious as to claim that it is fair and pure.  

by ejruiz on Feb 4, 2008 1:04 AM MST reply actions  

Several answers
  1. In a BCS system a team would have gotten to the SB by beating a bunch of high school and college teams, while running up the points.
  2. There is much to be said for winning when it matters.  I have coached everything from football to track to wrestling to speech/debate to chess, and I've found that some teams/individuals excell or decline when the pressure of the big game or tournament is on the table.  To some extent, I saw this in the army.  Guys who were awesome or average in training would (not always, but sometimes) change entirely in the real world.  For example, I was a medic, and saw the brightest go wobbly with pressure and the quietest become bold when going out on an ambulance run on post.
  3. Those of us (like me) who were critical of the Pats were told, "Then go out and beat them".  That's what had to be done.  If we are going to be critical of the playoffs, then the Pats also lose, because we now would have to go back and take away the Pats win against the Rams a few years ago (the Rams were the better team).
  4. The Giants got through the playoffs and the Pats on the field, unlike BCS teams that have to do it in some computer program.
If nothing else, I think we could agree that a lot less controversy surrounds an upset in the SB than the controversy surrounding how a team even gets in the BCS title game.  The Giants had to get past a stronger division (teams like the favored Cowboys) while the Pats dealt with the Dolphins?!?

Last, I look at it like a war.  No one cares who won the most victories or the most battles.  The side that wins is the side that wins the last battle.  The American revolution was filled with defeat after defeat for the Americans.  On a tactical level the Americans were slaughtered.  At the end of the day, Washington (and I'm oversimplifying here) lost his way towards a very few victories that happened in key places.  With respect, the British Army was clearly superiour to the colonials, but history doesn't care who was better.

The award (in football, war, or life) doesn't say who was the best, it says who won.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 4, 2008 6:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Point By Point.
  1.  While college football dynasties have the luxury of scheduling seemingly weak non-conference opponents, such a practice is not fool-proof.  Not only are there monumental upsets that end seasons before they begin (App. State defeated Michigan in The Big House), but scheduling soft will come back to haunt you when you face tougher opponents down the road.  And make no mistake about it: even the weakest conferences have tough match-ups and champions usually have their fair share of challenges on the schedule.
  2.  You like sprinters, I like marathon runners.  Perhaps this is because I am a baseball fan, but I have come to value consistency moreso than well timed streaks.  I believe this is a preference issue, so I'll leave it at that.
  3.  I'm not saying that the hypothetically "better" team should be granted championships, but rather that the team that has proven itself superior for the totality of the season is clearly the best in the league that year.  If the Pats had lost the regular season finally to the Giants 14-10, but then avenged their loss with a 38-35 win in the Super Bowl, they would be viewed in a different light even though they would have completed essentially idential seasons.  The Giants were defeated six times while the Pats lost once and they split their head-to-head matchup... how are the Giants the better team?
  4.  You speak as though the college football season was simulated by some super-computer.  Cliche as it may be, the college bowl system makes the regular season a sort of playoff.  Placement in the championship game is determined on the field and validated by computers and voters alike.  It is more legitimate than rigidly seeding playoffs based on conference and league affiliation.
  5.  The reason why the NFL playoffs are more generally accepted than the BCS is tradition and nothing more.  Furthermore, playoffs appeal to the emotional and primal nature of man; the BCS is too inhuman.  As for strength of schedule, you should remember that the Giants lost six games and failed to win even their own division while the Pats went undefeated through a record 18 consecutive games.  Strength of schedule is a component of team strength, but not the end-all, be-all.
  6.  The British army may have been superior in general terms, but they were fighting on hostile ground with extended supply lines and in a manner they were not accustomed to.  While this may sound like playing the Super Bowl on the road against an akward match-up, the aforementioned aspects are magnified in the former to the point of rendering such a comparison less than effective.  Simply put, it sounds good and almost fits, but just doesn't.  
As for your quote: it's a good one, no doubt.  That said, I am in fact arguing in favor of a system that is better at rewarding the best and limiting the variance that goes with giving the spoils to those that win a set of weighted games at the end of a season.  I haven't slept in a very long while, so all of this may be nonsense, but I hope not.  Thanks for taking the time to read and respond HT; it's a pleasure to discuss this with you always!

by ejruiz on Feb 4, 2008 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent points all!
I want to respond to each point, sharing with you a couple of things first.  First, that we agree the Pats were the best team this year (though I still believe the SB is not a measurement of best).  Second, I acknowledge that this discussion is for fun, since it is subjective opinion on our parts..  No hard feelings, and I share the sentiment with you that it is a pleasure to have the conversation for the fun of it

: )

Now on to ripping up your points!  (joke!)

  1. The idea that small, underfunded schools sometimes upset large powerhouses is trying to make the exception the rule.
  2. I think I am the marathon runner here.  The Giants paced themselves, losing to some teams earlier in the season but using those games to learn from and slowly accumulating advantages.  Perhaps the Pats shouldn't have shown so much (by trying to win the last regular season game, which meant nothing).  Had the Pats tried to focus on the SB, instead of a perfect season, they wouldn't have shown so much in the final regular season game.  The Giants used pacing to not "race" through the season like a hare, but to plod onwards like a tortiose.  They learned from each of there losses and used the knowledge to beat each of those teams in the playoffs.  If the Pats had known the SB was a marathon and not a race, they would have had gas in the tank at the end.
  3. Again, I'm not claiming the NYGs are the best or better team, so point 3 is pretty much moot.  What I AM saying is that one team seemed to focus on being undefeated (despite their statements), while the other focused on the SB.  The Pats didn't rest their starters in games they were winning by 40 pt margins.  They also went for it on 4th down when leading by 40 points (in the fourth quarter).  They risked injury and risked giving other teams more film to study.  They also played the final game of the season to WIN, not to prepare for the SB.  I think that made them look good in terms of "games won", but if the goal was to win the SB they were pretty foolish.
  4. Determining winners by computer calculations and votes?  That can't possibly be the best way to determine a winner, can it?  But to your point, it most certainly IS determined by a computer (though not a super one).  The software (the program of which is not available to the public or to the football programs) calculates votes, rankings, poitns spreads, etc.  I may be over simplistic here, but just give me some games determined by wins.  Your point about divisional games is countered by the fact that the teams now qualify for a tournament where everyone must win on their own merits, and the higher seeded teams are compensated by byes, homefield, and playing lower seeds.  Why is it that every year sports analysts pull out their hair when a college team is "robbed" of a bowl appearence, but you never hear complaints about NFL teams being robbed from a championship appearence (unless it is a raiders fans crying about blown calls).  I hold it is because the NFL decides the season on the field, while college teams are at the whim of voters and a silly computation system.
  5. What you call primal I call a fundemental, deep rooted sense of fairness.  People inherently know fairness when they see it, and unfairness to.  Fairness is certainly a tradition.  Let's face it, the bowl system is an appeal to money - sponsorships by companies that want to advertise their own bowl.
  6. You might take another look at the British Army, which won convincing victories during the same time period "overextended" in places like India and the African continent.  But your point is that my analogy is not topical because of concerns about supply lines or hostile ground.  With respect, that wasn't how I used my analogy at all.  In the context I used it in, I was clearly not making a point about "homefield advantage".  I was making the point that an army, a team, or an individual can lose most of their battles, games, or matches and still win because very few contests are decided by the number of wins, but the "key" wins.  Let me provide some examples:
  • Does the better team always win the BCS?  No.
  • Does the better team always win the championships in baseball, hockey, or basketball? No.
  • Does the better military always win a military engagement?  No.  (We can look at the US Civil War instead of the Revolution too.  The lesser equipped Confederate military was better lead and walked all over the Union for most of the war.  They still lost.)
  • Does the better guy always get the girl?  It happened in Spiderman 2, but it doesn't always turn out that way.
So here's my challenge (be careful).  Would you advocate eliminating the NFL playoffs in favor of a bowl system?  Would you really like a poll to determine if the Broncos were a bowl worthy team?

Bottom line, I think we don't disagree on which team was better over the course of the year.  But I used to coach track too, and the winner was never "who led most of the race" but who crossed the finish line at the end in first place.  That applied to sprint and distance both.  I also coached wrestling, where a kid leading in points could still get pinned and lose the match.  In chess a kid could have less pieces on the board and still find a mating pattern.  To me, letting an opponent pile up tactical victories is fine if the strategic goal of winning is what my side is focused on.  

And right now I'd rather be in the Giants shoes celebrating the SB victory than be in NE's shoes saying, "But we were better."      

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 4, 2008 3:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Marathons and War.
Now that's an awesome comment title, is it not?!  You could make the argument that our discussion is incredibly interesting simply by the depth of our points, summarized by how attractive that headline is!

I know I'm walking into your wheelhouse here, but I'll keep the military debate going another turn.  The fact that wars can be won through attrition is another reason why the analogy doesn't work for me.  The Americans simply needed to hang in there and they could bank on allies joining their struggle and for the enemy to lose their will/ability to continue the fight.  While that may seem like gameplanning in football, it is a factor of the rules of the game inherent in particular violent conflicts and no present in the athelitic competition of football.

As for the Giants playing the tortoise to the Patriots hare, I think you're giving New York too much credit.  I believe it's fair to say that the Giants lost early games because they weren't the best team on the field at the time, not because they were pacing themselves.  I also feel it could be said that the Pats were focusing on running the table because they thought that was the best longterm strategy, not for glory.  By extending dominance, they were hoping to emply a "peace through strength" style approach that would give them a monopoly on confidence in future head-to-head match-ups.  Perhaps the G-Men won the Super Bowl because the Pats were tired, but maybe they were victorious because they matched-up well and they simply played better that day.  They were rewarded because they got hot at the right time and played their best game of the season at the perfect time.

As for the BCS (and I think we're both focusing on the idea of it, not the exact current encarnation) I think it takes certain of your complaints out of the equation.  Generally speaking, there is no advantage to playing weak opponents.  Strength of schedule is obviously a more important aspect in the formula than margin of victory or simple record.  Note that running the table doesn't guarantee a spot in the championship game (Hawaii) and teams with an additional loss (LSU) can earn a spot in that match-up ahead of teams with better records amassed against weaker opposition.  The shorter length of the season and the incredible number of participants make a perfect championship essentially impossible.  It just so happens that the BCS seems more fair to me than playoffs.

I think it's important to say that we both agree that neither system is perfect.  Moreover, I think it's fair to say that the nature of each league make it entirely likely that they'll have different optimum solutions.  That said, I think it would be most fair for the NFL to expand its playoffs to include every single team.  You could have a 14 week regular season and a 30 team tournament (the top seed after the first round would get a bye into the third round) and then have the most fair way of determining its champion.  I know that's a bit of a crazy tangent, but I like taking things to their logical conclussion and I think we've pretty much beaten this argument to death, fun as it was to do that.  

by ejruiz on Feb 5, 2008 7:09 AM MST up reply actions  

Good points as always
While I like the ground I'm on, I can see that I'm about to be outclassed in terms of style (that IS a great title), and conceed that anything else I might add would take our military analogies to reductio ad absurdum.

I think you have made the best arguments for a BSC system that I have heard.  It is very much to your credit that you can dress up that pig and parade it like a swan.  I think you ought to consider a law degree with your advocacy skills!

Thanks for a terrific give and take on the BCS versus playoffs.  I hope the League Commish doesn't lend you his ear!  : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 5, 2008 10:08 AM MST up reply actions  

Insurgencies are usually decided by who is willing
to pay the price for winning (or losing) for the longest period of time.  That perspective usually leads to the home team  having an advantage.  I wonder if that applies to the persistent futility of the raiders?

by Arctic Bronco on Feb 4, 2008 9:03 PM MST up reply actions  

What is fair?
Not to get all philosophical or anything, but I think it is a fair question (no pun intended).  What exactly is the role of the regular and post season?  Is the championship team supposed to go the team that was the best throughout all the games?  Or to the team playing the best at the end of the season?  

Sports like hockey and basketball treat the regular season as almost a qualifying round and it is understood that teams that are clearly not in the discussion for "best team" will reach the playoffs and potentially make a run to win a championship.

I think those sports go too far.  But I think college football does not go far enough.  One thing that is pretty unique to college football is the small number of games and the large number of teams.  When you throw in conference play, you have very disparate schedules which makes it very hard to figure out who the "best team" is.

I think pro football (and baseball pre-wild card) strike a nice balance.  The regular season is very important, but you still need to get it done a couple times in the playoffs.  I haven't gone and looked, but I am pretty sure that the Giants playing three teams that beat them in the regular season is a bit of a fluke.  (On the other hand, facing two teams for a second time during a Super Bowl run is probably pretty common)

If I had my way I would have a college playoff and I would shrink the NFL playoffs.  Under the Matt system, they would go back to having the top three divisional winners from each conference automatically make the playoffs and get a first round bye.  There are two wild card spots in each conference who play in the first week of the playoffs.  Being the fourth division winner does not guarantee a playoff spot, but it is the first tiebreaker.  So if Seattle wins the NFC West at 9-7 and the Giants are 10-6 and the Redskins are 9-7, the Giants get one wild card and the Seahawks get the other over Washington since Seattle is a division winner.  But if Washington also finished at 10-6, the Redskins and Giants would get in since they have better records than Seattle (who would miss the playoffs despite winning their division).

(Wow.  That was longer than intended.  Probably a sign that is a good topic for a diary.)

by MattR on Feb 4, 2008 9:12 AM MST up reply actions  

Good points all
I want to elaborate on a point you made, though all of them were good.  The idea that "...the Giants playing three teams that beat them in the regular season is a bit of a fluke."  As a coach, I admire the Giants title run for this reason above all else.  Mark this down:

A good coach wins games.  A great coach beats teams that have beaten him earlier on.

Why is this important?  It shows that the Giants staff was able to better break down film and make adjustments than those opponents.  They studied the teams that they lost to (or that were "better" than them) and found a way to win when it mattered.  They adapted, which is a skill set measurable at the end of a season (think playoffs and SB) more than any other time.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Feb 4, 2008 9:27 AM MST up reply actions  

To It's Logical Conclusion.
I think a more fair playoff system has to do away with conference and division tie-ins from the start.  A 10-6 team should always get the nod over a 9-7 team regardless of whether the latter finished atop its geographical subset.  Moreover, if the two best records in the league happen to be in one conference, why should they be slated to face each other before the Super Bowl?  If you're going to have a post season, it should be as separate from the regular season that spawned it.  The regular season should serve only to seed said playoffs and, at the point, vanish into oblivion the tools for its convenience (such as divisions to limit travel distances, historic alliances that are no longer relevant, etc.).  Just a thought...

by ejruiz on Feb 4, 2008 2:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Divisions for seeding
Scheduling is the biggest reason why divisions and conferences should be taken into account when seeding for the playoffs.  If all the teams in each conference played the other 15 teams once, then just ranking all the teams in the conference by record would make sense (and I actually think this would be a cool way to expand to 34 teams).  But with the current scheduling system it is tough to say that a 12-4 team from one conference is better or worse than a 13-3 team from another conference when the majority of each team's schedules come from distinct groups of teams.

by MattR on Feb 4, 2008 3:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Guys...
In order to even have this discussion, we need to define what a good (and therefore the "best") football-team is!

This discussion is raging all over football-communities, and i post this everytime i see one. Because there seems to be af difference of oppinion (is that with an a?).

Is "the best" team, the one who blows out it's opponents allmost on autopilot - on pure skill - in the reg-season, and then tripping in the playoffs? I mean, thats basically what the Pats did - only BAL, PHI and NYG gave them a ballgame. It was pure skill, because it was no secret what you should do to beat the Pats. Everybody knew, that you had bring the house on passrush, and tire out the old LB's by running the ball down their throats. NYG was the only one able to do that good enough, and when NE faced an opponent who was able to do exactly that, they had no move against it - what so ever. Bilichek sure looked mortal!

OR

Is the best team, the one, which learns from its mistakes and improving - playing on emotion, smartness, toughness and the power of will? 3 of those parameters are catalyzed when it matters the most - the emotion, toughness and power of will of the other teams was what cought up with NE - and in some amount also the smartness of Spagnoulo!

The first definition has the BCS-format written all over it. The second is in favor of an playoff-system.

If you took the first definition to its extreme, you should go with the traditional european soccer scheme. EVERY national championship is decided by every team in the league playing each other twice a season, and the one with the best record come May - has won the championship.

Have in mind, that i may be brainwashed, because every major international soccer-tournament is played in a scheme comparable to the NFL-playoffs.

From Denmark, so i excuse my self for un-knowing-ness...

by Claaaaas on Feb 4, 2008 1:58 PM MST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

MileHighReport(MHR) is the ultimate independent resource for the Denver Broncos on the web. Along with MHR Radio, the official podcast of MHR, we look to provide hardcore Denver Broncos fans positive, independent insight about the Broncos, 24/7/365!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Haleycriesalot_small
Pre-Free Agency Thoughts
Pumpkin_small
MLBs - what we have and what Fox and Del Rio historically want
Ph_small
2011: MHR I Need Your Help With An Upcoming Post
Zozobra_small
Explaining What "IT" Is that Tebow Has: An Analysis of the Art of Miracles
Pumpkin_small
The risk/reward analysis on drafting RBs earlier vs later

Recent FanPosts

Small
Denver Broncos Draft Strategy - Analyzing 2011 Offseason
Small
Broncos Roster needs – offseason 2012
Cube-orange_small
what makes a good nickel cornerback?
Small
Spread-ing History
Denver-broncos-wallpaper_1__small
The First Real Signing
La_la_land_small
Kids In A Candy Store
Small
A Shot at a Mock
Small
Broncos positions of need – off season 2012
0_1979_ford_f100-sequin_small
My GM box 2.0
Pimp_hand_-_the_pimp_hand_is_strong_in_this_one_small
Questions about the Spread Offense

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Getting Social With MHR

Facebook_badge_medium_medium
Black_generated_button

Milehighreport_email_medium

Web Stuff


 

Listed on BlogShares Top NFL Fan Sites


General Manager/Head Coach

Milehighreport_small John Bena

2011_small KaptainKirk

Asst. Head Coach

Dadndaughter_small Tim Lynch

2_small Sayre Bedinger

Bronco-pride_small Brian Shrout

Broncohoodie_in_africa_small Troy Hufford

Position Coach

Flag_canada_small Colby

182px-jesus_small Jezru

Img_0007_small Topher Doll

Hottie_small Sarah_Marshall

Small zsheely

Quality Control

800px-john_brown_painting_small mdierk