Football University - Zone Blocking

Welcome to another installment of MHR's Football University. Today we'll go over the central identity of the Broncos offense: the "zone block" system. It is one of the least understood systems in football, and the techniques employed in the system are misunderstood to the point of absurdity.
For instance, are you aware that zone blocking is not just a "run blocking" system? Did you know that zone blocking is not used on every down by zb teams? Or did you know that zone blocking can not be run without the controversial "cut block"?
We'll discuss the meaning of the zone block, as well as the techniques employed. We'll explain why some people think the techniques are dirty, as well as why the techniques are safe and approved from the NFL all the way down to the high school level.
Zone blocking is a succesful system and is gaining adherents in the NFL every year. Click "read more" below to learn about this facinating concept.
What is a zone block?
Zone blocking is a different way of approaching the jobs of the offensive linemen. On almost every OL, the idea is to match up with an opposing defensive lineman and to block him.
In the zone block (which we'll call "zb", not to be confused with "zone blitz") each OL stays shoulder to shoulder and starts to move in the direction of a run play. (We'll discuss pass zone blocking a little later). They will either block an opposing player 1:1 or 2:1. On the 2 to 1 blocks one of the OLs will break off of the block to go to what is called "the second level". Here, a LB is blocked. That is the simple idea behind the zb.
Why is zb so special?
For several reasons.
- You don't need the big, tough guys found from the most elite colleges high in the draft to build a good group. You need smart, fast, agile guys. This makes your line cheaper, and easier to get. This also means you can spend high picks on other needs.
- All teams (even Denver) train against man blocking schemes throughout the season. Very little training is done at the player level against zb. (Coaches can adjust for the zb, but it causes players to use tactics they aren't used to using. For instance, many 1 gap DTs need to switch to 2 gap, or have to learn not to pursue tackles in confined space. See the recent University article on gaps and techniques).
- The cut block (which we'll discuss in a moment) scares defensive players for two reasons. One, it hurts to get hit on the thigh (where the common peronial nerve is the target). Two, defensive players are not used to being taken to the ground, and this is a common occurance in the zb.
- It makes runs hard to read. Inside runs do not have a specific route for the RB. He "one cuts" a target of opportunity, making defensive plays harder to prepare (more on "one cut" in a moment).
- It makes RBs easier to get. You don't need the most expensive, high round picks. You just need a "one cut" runner.
Denver, like all other teams, will have penalties. Denver doesn't chop block more or less then any other team. What Denver does do purposely is "cut block". Chop blocking is illegal and dangerous. In fact, it is illegal because it is dangerous.
Chop blocking is when one player blocks an opposing player above the waist, while another player blocks the player below the waist. It is dangerous because the opposing player will brace himself one way or the other, and the blocks are pushing the player in two directions and can injure the opposing player's knee(s).
Chop blocking and cut blocking are different blocks, but sometimes you will hear the two terms confused with each other. Chop blocking has nothing to do with zone blocking.
Ok, then what is a cut block?
A cut block is any cut below the waist. Some people think that cut blocks are inherently dangerous or dirty. They are not. There are plenty of teams (even at the high school level, such as the high school that I was defensive coordiantor for most of my coaching days) that use cut blocks. Blocking below the knees is both dangerous and illegal. It is not a part of zone blocking, and not a part of fair play in football.
Blocking into a player's thigh is a critical component of zone blocking, and every zone blocking team does it multiple times per game. Interestingly enough, cut blocking is done by every team in every game, whether they zone block or not.
Remember that in a zb the OL is moving together in the direction of the run play. What if the defensive line is moving in the same direction? That's right; you can't square up and block a guy slanting the same direction you are moving in. So the only way to block the opposing player is to lower your head (you should already be running with a low center of gravity) and put your helmet in front of the player's thigh. You can tackle from the side or the front so long as your helmet is in front of the opposing player when the contact happens. You then drive your shoulder pad into the opposing player's thigh as hard as you can. This should bring down the opponent.
What's the issue of "dirty play" by Denver?
It's a shame I have to waste time discussing this. The NFL has ruled that the cut blocks (as used by Denver) are safe, effective, and fair. But if you don't like Denver and think you know better than the NFL (who has to consider liability issues), than you might ignore this point. The fact is, the biggest complainers in the past are now using the same system as Denver, while trying to claim they use it "differently" than Denver. There is no "difference" in the required cut block against a 1 gap DL slanting in the direction of a run play. All zb teams will execute a block to the thigh in this situation. For Denver to be "different" they would have to go for the knees or below the knees. If they did this they would be penalized. The fact is, Every team cut blocks the same way. There is no "different" cut block.
Anyone who has taken either PPCT or defensive tactics in law enforcement is aware of the common peronial nerve. It is a target for batons or knee strikes and is considered a safe place to strike without causing an injury. The NFL also recognizes the upper thigh as a safe and legal (meaning "fair in the NFL") place to aim a block.
For Denver to play dirty or outside of the rules they would have to aim the block at a player's knees or below the knees. This would not only be dangerous and against the rules, but a terrible way to block. Anyone who has actualy played the game (and I'm not talking about Madden '07, which I haven't messed with) knows that the center of gravity you would have to lower yourself to would put you on your own knees. You would also likely miss your block because you have further down to go to get to your block.
As an issue of "rules" or "NFL legality" the cut block is a settled matter. It has been reviewed and challenged many times by players and teams who do not like to be hurt (and the cut block does hurt). The NFL (which has a reputation above all other sports for ensuring safety in the game, and also wants to avoid liability) has ruled the cut block as used by Denver and other zb teams to be a safe, effective, and fair method.
INTERMISSION

Ok, back to the action...
As an issue of ethics, a thing can be inside the rules but still be unethical. The best arguments against cut blocking as used by Denver fall into two areas.
- Is it ethical to use a method that uses pain to gain an advantage,
- Is there a higher probability of injury?
As to the frequency of injuries, there is no evidence that Denver or any other team causes more injuries because of their method of cut blocking. Some people will point to players who have been injured in games against Denver's OL. But they leave out key information.
Players in Denver have made illegal blocks below the knees. So has every other team. To be intentional, a player would be ejected and or suspended. In one of the most memorable cases, Igor Olshansky (SD) was penalized for attacking Tom Nalen (DEN) for what Igor thought was an illegal block. The block was ruled illegal after the game by the NFL (and rightly so). But it was also ruled unintentional. Olshansky's actions (while understandable) were intentional. As a matter of rules, what Nalen did was more serious. As an issue of ethics, Olshansky acted with intent, while Nalen didn't. Even though Nalen's action was unintentional, the result could have been catastrophic. That is why he was fined. But had his action been intentional he would have been ethicaly wrong as well.
Denver has not been determined to be using blocks to the knees or below the knees as a part of their "dirty system", for which they would be sanctioned at the team level. Denver has not been fined or penalized at the team level, and (since Denver switched to the zb scheme) an OL or TE has not been found to have executed an intentional block to or below the knees on a zone block play. People will continue to point to injuries that have happened, but you could just as easily point to the number of players injured in any type of scheme or method to try and make a point. With liability as an issue, it would not pay for the NFL to allow a method that can lead to serious injury, and the NFL has spoken.
Now that the bs is out of the way, what is a "one cut" runner?
Denver doesn't need the best RBs in the world. They need a zb OL and a one cut RB. A "1C" is a runner (he can be either powerful or fast) who starts to run in one direction, and when he sees a hole open up in the defense he cuts back to that opening and runs in a straight line. This goes against the instincts of most players.
Some RBs "juke", which means they fake side to side movements, and use agility to gain yards. Other players commit right away and dedicate themselves to a play or a direction.
But 1Cs must have patience. They must be able to run towards the direction of the play, have the vision to not commit until the see an opening, and the discipline to make "one cut" towards the hole and to stick with it. They must also have the confidence to pick a hole, since the coordinator doesn't pick it for him. (There is an exception, but this is a little more comlicated. See the link at the end of the article for more on "outside and inside" zones. For now, let's stick with the basics.)
Another key for a 1C is the ability to keep one's legs moving during a tackle. This is because most RBs like to spin or juke (or use other moethods), but a 1C usualy faces tackles in confined spaces where other methods don't work (confined because the second level is full of OLs, not just LBs). I would have made a terrible 1C. I played rugby in college, and could not (for the life of me) keep running when my legs got wrapped. I was already preparing myself to hit the ground. Here again, the 1C does what does not come naturaly to most RBs.
Do zb teams zb every running play?
No. On some quick penetration plays on short yardage (by either the RB or FB) the zb team can do either method (zb or common block) to fool the opposition. On all other run plays the team can go either way to throw off the opposition.
How does zb work in a pass play?
When zone blocking methods are employed during a pass play, the method is called "zone locking". A combination of man and zone locks are used in each pass play by a zb team (some players are assigned a man, while others are assigned a zone on the same play). It is also a complex subject that deserves its own article. Information on zone locking is in the link later in this article.
~~~~~~~~~
The best article on the net I have found for those of you who want to read more is here:
http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1440703.html
Many articles (including wikipedia and several other mainstream sites) have articles that use incorrect terminology or don't know the difference between a defensive tackle and a defensive end. Bob Davie is considered an excellent Xs and Os coach (as his ESPN bio states), and the best conferences I've been to included his input. He's a college football guy, but his material is always sound and he has terrific illustrations in his article. He's an idol of mine when it comes to preparing defenses.
~~~~~~~~~~
As always, fire away with any questions or comments. I'll try to get to everything as long as the article is still on page one or two.
Go Broncos!
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OK,
Then with no viable FB, we fail on the goal-line when we try and power it in.
by broncodude793 on Mar 16, 2008 5:31 PM MDT 0 recs
Good thinking!
First, the zb really doesn't decrease the need for a FB for a couple of reasons.
- The FB is expected to zb just as much as the TEs do. In fact, TEs and FBs are better able to zb than common block because they already have (it would be assumed) the agility and quick feet to be effective.
- Because Denver combines the zb with a West Coast Offense, the FB is a valuable tool for screen plays.
This raises a point I meant to include in the main article, but forgot. I'm glad you reminded me. One thing that people complain about is unneccasary blocks that happen behind or away from the play. It should be remembered that there is NO "away from the play" in a zb scheme. Since the runner will always be expected to cut back, it is imperative that blocks happen behind (away) from the play.
Next, on goaline situations the team can either force the ball ahead with common blocking, or force the ball ahead with a zb. The FB in Denver's scheme is extra important because Denver often runs a play that sends the FB out for a screen (even though it most often is just to pull defenders away).
The FB has become less important as TEs and multiple TE sets have gained in popularity. With many team playing zone defenses (like the cover two systems) the TE gains in prominance because of his ability to exploit seams. Even in the Denver system we use RBs converted into FBs instead of "pure FBs". Until Denver goes to a 3 TE system (as opposed to just 3 TE sets on occasion), the FB will still have a role.
In case anyone is thinking about it, yes, the zb can be used in a 3 TE system. The reason the zb would be prefered in 3 TE systems is because TEs are natural zone blockers (more so than big, beefy OLs).
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 16, 2008 6:08 PM MDT
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Awesome article!
by bcfunderburk on Mar 16, 2008 8:59 PM MDT 0 recs
Thanks for the kind words
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 4:08 AM MDT
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I see.
by broncodude793 on Mar 16, 2008 9:32 PM MDT 0 recs
I would venture to say...
Further down the road, I expect the position to be replaced by an extra TE.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 4:07 AM MDT
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Professor styg dropping in
In observing the habits of fellow Broncomanaics I have noticed the adherence to the "late in the draft RB" philosophy, and perhaps more than any physical skill, it is patience that sets these late round and undrafted choices head and shoulders above their peers in terms of Denver's system. These are players that know well before the draft that they may not be with a team come training camp, and that they have a long ways to go to reach their dreams in the NFL. Nothing will be handed to them and they are prepared to accept that, and keep working. In life they must exercise patience, and they become good at it, so that when Bobby Turner, Denver's main coach for these young RBs, tells them, "Wait, be patient, keep reading and keep focusing, and when the opportunity is there, give it everything you got," when he is talking about following blocks, these CFAs and 6th rounders just nod in appreciation and go out and do just that, because that is what they have always done, and that is what they tell themselves everyday, about life in general. They aren't learning a new skill, just a new way of applying it.
Foremost is knowledge that patience isn't in the DNA. It is mental clarity, emotional control, and physical acuity all brought to bear on a single span of moments that may cover a few seconds or a lifetime. And it has to be practiced, honestly and often, if one wants to be proficient with it. You can't ask Tatum Bell, a young man with so much talent that everyone around him, including himself, was always wondering why he wasn't already where he was supposed to be going, to slow down and be patient and expect him to just be able to do it. Watching him run into the backs of his blocks with frequency is the ultimate concretization of an inner turmoil he may never fight through.
In fact, in Classical Literature 401, just down the hall, we are studying this same virtue in the character of Jean ValJean, hero of Les Miserables. As an ex-convict, welcomed by no one and bitter towards humanity, he was given shelter by a kind priest. Later in the evening he stole the priest's silver candlesticks, the priest's only valuable possessions, and attempted to escape, only to be caught by the local guard, who recognized the priest's valuables. When they presented him to the priest, to return the candlesticks and subsequently be hauled back to prison, the priest claimed that he had actually given Jean the silver, and that it had not been stolen. In disbelief, after the guards had left, Jean Valjean asked the priest why he had spared his life (to return to jail at that time would have been a life sentence for ValJean). The priest replied: "Take the silver. With it, I am buying your soul from the Devil, and I am giving it to God." Jean ValJean had every reason to be virtuous for the rest of his days. But he wasn't. At least, not right away. He tried and failed many times to exercise virtues like honesty and patience, but he did try to exercise them. With exercise came aptitude and proficiency, and after he had lived a long, full life, he finally obtained mastery in time to secure his most treasured value, the love of his daughter.
Nobody said patience is easy.
By the by, if any of you are interested in this discussion, you can join in down the hall in C.Lit. 401.
HT, why are all your students giggling??
by styg50 on Mar 16, 2008 9:44 PM MDT 0 recs
Thank you again Styg
I'm sure the giggling is either because of my infamous intermissions or because I presently sit in my boxers typing by the night light coming from our kitchen.
Yes, patience is a wonderful thing. Today, we as a society value immediate gratification and flashy "slam dunks" and "bomb passes" in sports. Give me Petrosian and his careful but long winded positional play that eschewed tactics for strategy, or give me an offense that wears down the opponent, or an Ali that rope-a-dopes. Give me a basketball team that actualy passes the ball, or a football team that works together. Good points all Styg.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 4:04 AM MDT
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This should not get lost in the shuffle
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 5:07 PM MDT
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Wow
by sallyyoullk230 on Mar 17, 2008 1:31 AM MDT 0 recs
Yes indeed!
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 3:56 AM MDT
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WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! AGAIN!!
"The chop block occurs when a player (usually an offensive linemen though not always) blocks another (usually a DL or LB but not always) from the side or the back, below the waist, OR when the defensive player is engaged with another offensive player and therefore defenseless."
So your definition of a CHOP block only covers one area in the actual definition of a CHOP block. If the block is above the waist, and from the back, then it is a CLIP. If the block is above the waist, and 'from the side', then it is legal only if the blockers helmet is in front of the player blocked, and in this case it could still be a CLIP, but its up to referee judgment.
The REAL definition of a CUT block is as follows...
"The cut block occurs when a player (usually an offensive lineman though not always) blocks another (usually a defensive lineman or LB though not always) below the waist, with his helmet in front of the player."
Notice the phrase "in front of the player", as a blocker is considered 'in front' as long as his helmet is on the front side. Any block below the waist, not deemed from the front, is a CHOP block, and not a CUT block.
Therefore Hoosierteacher's statement that, "A cut block is any cut below the waist", is also wrong. As the block must be from the front to be considered a CUT.
Lastly, a CUT block is not always legal, as Hoosier teacher states. I have already shown that blocks below the waist are CUT blocks ONLY when deemed from the front. All blocks from below the waist, and from the back or the side, are CHOP blocks.
However, a block from the front, BELOW THE KNEES, is termed an "ILLEGAL CUT BLOCK". This is a simple truth that Hoosierteacher refuses to accept.
And this is where the Donkeys come into the picture. It is widely known that the Donkeys illegally CUT block, and the only proof that is needed, are the disproportionate numbers of Donkey caused injuries as a result of Dirt Donkey OL Illegal Cut and Chop Blocks. (I have listed all these injuries before, but what the hell, so here it is again!)
Oct. 25, 2004: Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams suffered a broken ankle when illegally cut blocked (AHA! See Hoosier teacher, I just cut and paste this) by Broncos right tackle George Foster.
Sept. 19, 2004: Jacksonville defensive end Paul Spicer suffered a broken leg on a low cut (I guess you could call it this as well Hoosierteacher, but it's still illegal, and still termed a CUT) by Broncos left tackle Matt Lepsis.
Dec. 1, 2002: San Diego defensive tackle Jamal Williams suffered a dislocated ankle when blocked from behind (IE Chopped) by Broncos guard Steve Herndon. Denver's Herndon, Shanahan Apologize To Chargers' Williams:
(http://www.cbssprtsline.com/nfl/story/5981625)
Oct. 28, 2001: New England linebacker Bryan Cox suffered a broken leg on a play involving Broncos right guard Dan Neil. Cox said he was chop blocked in the back of his leg by Neil; Neil denied hitting Cox. Broncos' Neil Fined for chop on Patriots' Cox - Breaks Cox's Leg
(http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1272089.html)
Oct. 21, 2001: San Diego defensive lineman Maa Tanuvasa suffered a broken ankle on a cut block by Lepsis.
2001: (I could not find the exact date) Neil was fined $52,941.18 - the equivalent of one game check - for two leg whips against the Oakland Raiders in a Monday night game.
On top of all these, and there are many more, it does not stop at 2004 as the Chargers Igor Olshanski can attest....
November, 2006: Denver Broncos center Tom Nalen has been fined $25,000 by the NFL for a cut block on San Diego's Igor Olshansky in the final minute of the Sunday night's loss to the San Diego Chargers. (Thats funny Hoosierteacher, cause if it was a CUT block, then how could it be illegal? AHA! I can be sarcastic too!)
Check out this Sports illustrated article from 2004. Beautiful when the truth is right in front of you.
Broncos Have the Dirtiest Players - 3 in Top 10
(http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/players/10/12/poll.dirtiest/)
Hoosierteacher, I have spelled this out for you several times, so please read it numerous times until you get it. Its really a collection of simple truths, backed by a rediculous amount of evidence (something you did not use, except for you supposed HS coaching experience, if that matters anyway)!!
DONKEYS ARE DIRTY!! ILLEGAL CUT BLOCKS EXIST!! AHA!!
Go Raiders!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on Mar 17, 2008 1:36 AM MDT 0 recs
I'm sorry you disagree (with the NFL and me)
Some of your comment is based on opinion, and people can differ. However, some of your comment is just plain wrong.
Where to begin?
First, as I pointed out (and you ignored), anyone can take any list of injuries and try to make a case out of it. However, you continue to ignore the following facts:
First, the NFL reviews every injury for three reasons.
- liability
- rules infractions
- the need to reconsider an existing rule for safety concerns
I don't know where you get your definitions. Here is "clipping", straight from the NFL Rulebook:
"Clipping: Throwing the body across the back of an opponent's leg or hitting him from the back below the waist while moving up from behind unless the opponent is a runner or the action is in close line play."
In case you don't know, the "close line of play" is any area between the tackles and extending out lateraly 3 yards in either direction.
There are two blocks that you may be confusing with chop blocking. If you are getting your definitions from the internet and not from the official NFL rule book (as I am), you may have missed these penalties (both are 15 yard violations) -
- Illegal low block
- Illegal crackback block by offense
Last, the term "illegal cut block" is not an NFL sanctioned term. And here is where I get to enjoy myself.
Other than the two terms I used above, "chop block", "clipping", and "illegal block above the waist" are the only blocks described by the NFL rules book as penalties. I don't mean to embarass anyone, but the term "cut block" is a method term, and is used by players and coaches. It is not a rule, nor an infraction. What you choose to call "illegal or legal cut blocks" are not defined as such by the NFL. They use the terms I have provided. Cut block is not listed as a penalty.
Perhaps, my friend, we are both in error. I wasn't aware that you might have been refering to Canadian Football, with which I am unfamiliar.
Thanks for playing.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 3:53 AM MDT
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Standing Ovation.
"Perhaps, my friend, we are both in error. I wasn't aware that you might have been refering to Canadian Football, with which I am unfamiliar.
Thanks for playing."
You sir, are the man! HoosierTecher, the G.O.A.T.
by ejruiz on
Mar 17, 2008 7:19 AM MDT
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Learn the rules buddy....
Try Try Again, Donkeys!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:21 PM MDT
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Sure...
That some are inside or outside the tackle box has no bearing on the conversation.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 2:31 PM MDT
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AGAIN.....
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:36 PM MDT
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Since Hoosierteacher....
By the way Hoosierteacher: Clipping Below the Waist, is listed as a 15 YARD PENALTY!!! SO MUCH FOR YOUR ARGUMENT THAT CLIPPING DOES NOT EXIST IN NFL RULES TERMINOLOGY!!! WRONG AGAIN!!!
AHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAH! YOU ARE A PERSON THAT MAKES UP RULES TO TRY AND WIN ARGUMENTS!!! That is Hilarious. YOU HAVE BEEN REFUTED IN DEBATE YET AGAIN soooooooo,
TRY TRY AGAIN SMART GUY!!!
Denial is not a river in Egypt!!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:44 PM MDT
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MY BAD MY BAD....
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries
Make something else up Hoosierteacher, cause proving you wrong time and time again is hilarious, and you are providing comedy to all my friends that are reading my posts, and sending me info via E-Mail to refute you. Its not just me man, as in Raider Nation, are all laughing at you. You are an embarrassment, even for a Donkey!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:46 PM MDT
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IN FACTI HAVE FOUND ANOTHER.....
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:50 PM MDT
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You really need to read
And try to avoid the "shifting premises" error whenever you get proven wrong. Just nut up and let it go.
Better yet, make a diary laying out the case for "Dirty Donkies". Something that we can sink our teeth into, and which doesn't keep getting derailed by semantic issues, which has been addressed to death. Most of the readers of the site are happy with what they have learned about the terminology, but dwelling on this any longer just delays all of our potential for more learning and more growth.
Your case, and where all of this is coming from, is you want to make an argument about the moral inferiority of the Broncos. So write a diary and make it. Lay it out so it can't be ignored or marginalized. We'd like to see it, because none of us are interested in ignoring potential sportsmanship issues with our team. Just understand that it will need to be a solid case because we firmly believe otherwise. Making a case against HT's moral inferiority (which is what this has degenerated to) should hardly be suitable compensation for a serious debater, especially considering you're not going to convince anyone here, where HT has done nothing but provide value and insight since his arrival.
There is too much sound and fury over trivial semantics. Put that effort into a diary where it could do some good.
by styg50 on
Mar 17, 2008 3:32 PM MDT
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You input comes after about...
Try Try Again!!
OakFOSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM MDT
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Again, I type to fast.....
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 3:37 PM MDT
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My input
I won't go back and review each post to point out exactly who changed what where, but I can confidently state that the GOOD that has come out of this is that we have gained some excellent clarification from HT, brought about by your badgering, and even some of your input (when you're not practicing ad hominem). It seems like a win-win up to this point.
I don't suppose you read my whole post and are considering a "Dirty Donkies" diary? ;)
And its ok to not correct your spelling errors all the time. If we see spelling errors we almost universally ascribe them to fast typing and hasty posting. Maybe in the future users will be able to edit posts instead of just diaries and stories. I know that is a feature I would really like, as I am a frequent hasty poster. I'm trying to get better though. Using the "preview" button more, mostly.
by styg50 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:06 PM MDT
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First of all your regurgitation facts again....
Inside the Tackle box a block , below the waist, from the back is a CHOP. YOU EVEN MENTION THE TACKLE BOX, BUT COMPLETELY MISINTERPRET THE RULES, AGAIN!!! Regardless of how many times your refuse to accept this, like showing what a clip is OUTSIDE OF THE TACKLE BOX, it doesn't matter, because this definition does not even cover the area of discussion, IE illegal CHOPS and CUTS INSIDE THE TACKLE BOX!! TRY TRY AGAIN COACH!!! AHAHAHHAHAHHAHA! COACH MY ASS!!!
Also, don't try and educate me on a position I played, or the Tackle Box. Why? Because if you look back at our previous discussion on the previous post, I already refuted this argument by defining WHAT THE TACKLE BOX WAS, and you know very well that you don't need to explain this, as I already did, SMART GUY!!
Also, the referee does have a judgement call on a clip, that is why what often appears to be a clip is not called, because the blocker's head got to the front side, and the referee deemed it legal. Try Try Again Smart Guy, or should I say COACH!!! AHAHAHA!! I feel bad for those kids!
This guy has tried to make up rules, as well as his own interpretation of those NFL rules. Worthless, Post, that disproves nothing, YET AGAIN!! If you want to talk about CLIPPING and the Tackle Box, then get your facts straight before you try and educate the already educated, SON!!
And if you have a problem with the Donkey dirty play, don't blame me, just face the facts, look at the evidence, and then close your mouth as you continue to regurgitate the same outdated/made-up/crap, that you try and pass off as truth, because you are SUPPOSEDLY a HS football coach. Not that that matters, cause there are some TERRIBLE HS coaches, that teach the totally wrong things, IE Hoosierteacher.
Try Try Again, SON!!! AHA!
Hoosierteacher = Regurgitater = Worthless POST!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:11 PM MDT
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WOW!! I type toooo fast......
Please forgive the line in the 1st paragraph that reads....
", as the NFL and you are confusing the rules, not me"
this line should read.....
"You are confusing the NFL rules, not me"
OakFoSho
PS Hoosier teacher will try and use these typos against me, because he has no factual evidence left to stand on...
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:18 PM MDT
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All of your points...
You brought up the issue, I gave you the NFL's position, and I see no further point in feeding your fantasy that you are more an expert than the rule book.
And by the way, you waste an awful lot of thread space correcting your errors (spelling and such). You don't need to do that here. As long as you don't get personal, your views are going to be judged by the thoughts behind them and not your composition skills.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 2:39 PM MDT
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I Provide Sources.......
make up all you want, but list your sources if you want me to believe your make believe posts!!
AHA!! Denial is not a river in Egypt!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:57 PM MDT
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I am not sure why I am responding
Why isn't the chop block (below the waist), even if done inside the tackle box, called a penalty? Too many guys could lose their careers with serious knee injuries. --Ken Johnson, Champaign, Ill.There is a difference between a chop block and a clip. Clipping, as defined in the NFL rulebook, is as follows: There shall be no clipping from behind, below the waist against a non-runner. This does not apply to offensive blocking in close-line play, where it is legal to clip above the knees, but it is illegal to clip at or below the knees. Close-line play is that which occurs in an area extending laterally to the position ordinarily occupied by the offensive tackles and longitudinally three yards on either side of the line of scrimmage. In close-line play, if an offensive player's block, legal or illegal, is followed by a block rolling up the back of the legs of the defender, the action is illegal and is considered unnecessary roughness.
A chop block is a foul by the offense, in which one offensive player blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, while another offensive player blocks the same defensive player high or above the waist. Both clipping and chop blocks are personal fouls and carry a 15-yard penalty. The rule is very tough in this situation because these blocks can cause serious injury
(emphasis mine)
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 3:31 PM MDT
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and the illegal below the knees block
Clipping below the waist we all know takes place outside the tackle box so is not applicable to the ZB discussion.
Similar for Illigal block above the waist.
And chop block was defined by Jerry Markbreit above.
So those are the five illegal blocks that are in the NFL rulebook that you linked to.
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM MDT
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About Clipping and an Illegal block....
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 3:42 PM MDT
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Been there, done that
Can we at least agree that in the official NFL rulebook there are only five penalties for illegal blocks?
- Chop block.
- Clipping below the waist.
- Illegal crackback block by offense.
- Illegal low block.
- Illegal block above the waist.
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 3:50 PM MDT
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Yes we can!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:00 PM MDT
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well, what are these rules then?
I know we have all agreed that clipping as a penalty must occur outside the tackle box. I think we can agree that illegal blocks above the waist and illegal crackback blocks are not relevant to the discussion.
So that leaves two penalties that we need definitions for: Chop Block and Illegal Low Block.
I have not found actual definitions of these penalties on the NFL site, just a page that lists them as penalties. The closest think I came for a chop block was from former ref Jerry Markbreit. So I am taking that as "official" until I find something better.
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 4:26 PM MDT
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Well done Matt
Your last two comments are great material. But (as we're all learning together today), no amount of arguing works with an eccentric.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an online reference to the NFL rules. I think it is material that the NFL wants people to purchase. There is an abbreviated version on the NFL site, but it is VERY abbreviated. There is also information (as I mentioned earlier) that is either counterfactual or incomplete.
Great job, but again, facts won't help sneaky. Keep up the great work. You are the the person I'm trusting on the salary cap, since I have tried to read the material and still have a hard time deciphering it. You have made it as clear as can humanly be done, but much of the information still escapes me. : )
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 3:46 PM MDT
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Working on a salry cap update
Back on topic - I am guessing that some of the defensive line injuries occur when players jump back from a blocker coming at their thighs so the contact ends up lower (at the knees/ankles). Am I offbase? And is that something that is left to the ref's discretion?
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 3:56 PM MDT
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YOU HANEN'T!?!?!? AHA!
Denial is not a river in Egypt!
OakFOSHo
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:05 PM MDT
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lol! You Haven't found it?
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:06 PM MDT
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The source you cite
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 4:56 PM MDT
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Look through the site......
OakFoSho
"Kill the Lion, Eat the Sheep, Ride the Donkey!!"
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 18, 2008 1:29 AM MDT
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THIS IS AN ADMISSION OF YOUR LIE!!!
"Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an online reference to the NFL rules."
If thats the case Smart Guy, then why did you reference the NFL Rules Book if you did not have it. In a previous post on this very article you stated...
"I don't know where you get your definitions. Here is "clipping", straight from the NFL Rulebook: Clipping: Throwing the body across the back of an opponent's leg or hitting him from the back below the waist while moving up from behind unless the opponent is a runner or the action is in close line play."
YOU ARE WORTHLESS, and this is an admission of that fact. You cited in your post the NFL RULES BOOK, but you have just admitted that you have not ACTUALLY found a source. YOU ARE WORTHLESS!!
I now call into question the validity of all your post. You are a hypocrite, that makes up sources simply to win a debate. Low, even for a blog. While I may need another class on debate (NOT LIKELY THE WAY I HAVE HANDLED YOU), you need a class in ETHICS.
I cannot believe that you would actually admit a lie, in the very same Article conversation in which you made that lie up. It here for all too see, WORTHLESS!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:21 PM MDT
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Did you notice the word "book" in there?
This Digest of Rules of the National Football League has been prepared to aid players, fans, and members of the press, radio, and television media in their understanding of the game.It is not meant to be a substitute for the official rule book. In any case of conflict between these explanations and the official rules, the rules always have precedence.
In order to make it easier to coordinate the information in this digest, the topics discussed generally follow the order of the rule book.
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 4:30 PM MDT
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If he says he has a copy......
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 4:38 PM MDT
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what has he made up
by MattR on
Mar 17, 2008 4:43 PM MDT
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(laughing)
I told another commenter that I couldn't find an online reference for the rule book. I also stated that I think the NFL wants people to buy it, and that is why it may not be available.
I also stated that I have the actual BOOK RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. I also stated that I had borrowed it from a friend of mine who coaches about 45 minutes from my home.
Are done looking foolish yet? I don't think you can top this latest idiocy of yours. Haven't you read anything I wrote?
Are you ready to apologize, or are you going to fall back on your, "I was only joking stunt"?
"You are a sad, strange little man" - Buzz Lightyear
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 5:03 PM MDT
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You have failed several burdens of proof
One burden of proof you have NOT met is showing that these injuries are in statistical excess of the same figures of any given NFL team in a sufficiently long time period, that is, depending on how much weight you wish to give your argument, at least one standard deviation above the NFL average of defensive line injuries among opponents. Had you met this burden, you would have shown that Denver DL opponents have been disproportionately injured in the given time period.
Another burden you have failed to meet is showing that this disproportional level of injuries (which you have failed to prove) was caused by the Bronco's employed offensive scheme(s). I agree that this is a difficult thing to prove, however, it is down right impossible with the premise of disproportionality has not even been established.
You have shown that opposing defensive linemen have been injured in Bronco's games. Bravo.
by poorboywilly on
Mar 17, 2008 1:31 PM MDT
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Of Course Donkey fans like this....
Denial is not a river in EGYPT!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 2:24 PM MDT
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I agree with you poor
The NFL has reviewed everything that has been put on the table regarding the matter, and continued to support the position of zb teams like Denver. There's just no arguing with that, unless someone thinks they have more knowledge, more research, more experts, more testimony, more film, more doctors, more game officials, and more lawyers than the NFL. But you can't argue with conspiracy theorists.
by hoosierteacher on
Mar 17, 2008 2:47 PM MDT
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Keep lying to yourself.......
You make a new mistake when you say....
"They allow cut blocking, and have not sanctioned the Broncos for the technique nor have they changed the rule."
Actually this rule is up for debate every year, and it has been modified and re modified several times since the year 2000. Try Try Again Smart Guy. Also, look back over the examples of injuries, the articles I list as proof, and you can clearly see that the NFL has sanctioned the Donkeys several times.
Denial is not a river in Egypt!!
OakFoSho
by Sneaky275 on
Mar 17, 2008 3:02 PM MDT
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Oh Come On...
If it were truly illegal, the NFL would change the rules or ask the referees to call it on every single play, niether of which has happened or will happen.
by super7 on Mar 17, 2008 9:27 AM MDT 0 recs

