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MHR Football University - DL gaps and techniques

Welcome to another installment of Football University.  Today I hope to clear up some of the language used by commentators when they refer to the defensive line.  The terms they use (like "B Gap", "3 technique lineman", "1 vs 2 gap type DTs" etc) can sound confusing and impressive, but there's no reason for them to throw out terms just to impress the listener.

You deserve to understand the terms, and I'm going to help de-mystify the fancy talk.  With the defensive tackle positions being a priority this year, I'm sure we're going to hear some of these terms thrown around a lot.  At the end of our look at these terms I'll give you a good link to our friends at Football Outsiders if you really want a more indepth look at not only the terms, but how linemen are coached to play their positions (it is an excellent article).

Let's get started.  Click on "read more" for the full story.  See you after the jump!

Star-divide

First, a "gap" is an area between the offensive linemen where a defensive player is heading to (a LB or a d-lineman).  This is how the gaps are lettered:

Speedy DEs like Doom and Moss like to take the D gaps to get around the offensive line.  Rarely a DE will be set out really wide for the E gap, but this gap is more likely used by a CB on a CB blitz.  Fast DEs also like the C gap on whichever side the TE is NOT on (known as the weakside).

Some DEs are more bull rushing types with less agililty but more power.  These guys shoot the B or C gaps more often.

Now, where a player lines up is called a "technique".  I know that we often here a player refered to as a "two technique" or "three technique" tackle, and it sounds like a sort of strategy.  Not true.  The word "technique" in this context means "where the lineman lines up".

Here are the "techniques":

Note that a number correspnds to the shoulder of an offensive lineman.  A 3 technique guy is going to line up between a guard and tackle, but nearer to the guard's shoulder.  A 4 technique player has been assigned to be between a guard and a tackle too, but is instead just to the inside of the tackle's shoulder.

It sounds like too much detail, but it is critical.  The way a player turns his man or shoots the gap is heavily dependent on exactly where the player is lined up.  It isn't eneough to just line up between a guard and a tackle.  You have to now exactly where between them you are lining up.

Also note that a zero technique is a "Nose Tackle" (the center tackle on the defensive line when there are only three defensive linemen, as in a 3-4 formation).  More often than not, a 1 technique player is also going to be a nose tackle.

Moreover, most technique line-ups come with a typical responsibility.

0 and 1 technique NTs typicaly try to demand double teams.  2 and 3 technique DTs are ussualy assigned to pass rush.  4 technique DTs generaly block out the OTs so that a LB or box safety can blitz.  DEs line up anywhere from 4 to 6.

Some teams use 8 or 9 according to an article I read (I'll give you the link in a moment), but that's pretty rare and I've never really seen it done.

So when designing a play, you assign the defensive linemen to a technique (position to line up), then give them a gap to hit (the letter).  A LB's place to line up is done the same way as a defensive lineman, except you add a "zero" after the technique number.  Thus, a "60" technique is a linebacker on the inside shoulder of a TE.

Not every DT shoots a gap.  There are two approaches to using a DT, called "one gap" and "two gap".  A one gap DT is assigned a gap and plugs it up by going into it and disrupting the play (either by getting the QB or taking the gap away from a RB).  A two gap DT has to be smart.  He is responsible for two gaps, and is freed up to decide which gap to hit based on how the play unfolds.  He is slower to commit than a 1 gap, but has more flexibility to determine what needs to be done.

As the article I'm going to link to points out, the zoneblock scheme used by Denver eats up 1 gap approaches.  2 gap causes us more problems.  And while no team uses just one of the "1 or 2 gap" approaches, schemes dictate that teams will have a preference.

The link to read if you want to learn more is:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2005/07/08/ramblings/strategy-minicamps/2704/

If you have any questions about the defensive line or the more in depth article linked, I'm here for you.  In fact, as always, I'm here for any questions relating to on field coaching and techniques dealing with Xs and Os such as systems and strategy.

Other MHR experts are here for you too.  Several frequent MHR contributors include experts on the draft, combine, salary, salary cap, and even law.  No question is too simple or dumb.  If our group doesn't have the answer, we'll work to find it for you.  We're all glad you're here!

In the next installment I'll be covering a question that was submitted in the comments of a recent MHR Football University article.  The question dealt with issues like:

  • Why does a CB play bump and run versus off coverage,
  • What types of CBs play diffenerent types of coverages (like zone, off, regular, or bump),
  • How is the decision made to determine the coverages of a CB?
Fire away with any questions, comments, and answers.  Take care!

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So.....
Would you say we have three good b/c Gap hitters and 2 decent a gappers? Or am I over rating our talent a bit?
Davis to the Hall! "A leader, once convinced that a particular course of action is the right one, must be undaunted when the going gets tough." Ronald Reagan

by Jon Tollerud on Mar 2, 2008 2:42 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Well...
It's oversimplifying a bit but:

I think the strength of our d-line is at DE, where we have some exceptional pass rushers and good depth.  The speed rushers are primed for shooting the C and D gaps, while our more run-stopping oriented DEs might be more oriented towards the B and C gaps.

At DT I don't know what we will end up with.  Despite Sam Adam's curious statement to the press (claiming that run-contain DTs don't play two gap), Denver was trying to bring in 2 gap type DTs to lock up the center of the line.  In either of the two systems I would expect from Slowik we could use 1 or 2 gap type DTs.  1 gap DTs would be a little lighter but quick at shooting the gaps and would be part of the blitzing schemes, while 2 gap DTs could tie up the OL and allow the LBs and DEs better chances.  We could also see a 1 gap paired with a 2 gap, which is pretty common.

If we use 1 gap type DTs they could hit A or B.  If B, watch for a LB blitz up the middle.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 3:09 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Also...
I didn't really answer your question too well.  I honestly believe that we have an entire rotation of solid DEs with no weaknesses.  We have several DEs, and all of them are good.

At DT I think Thomas may be good if he continues to improve, but I need more time to gauge what I think.  I think Mkinley is good in rotation, but that's it.  We brought in some other guys who may have some value, but I'm not sure about them yet either.

I look for us to draft a couple of DTs and maybe to pick up a DT through trade or FA.  While it is nice to have two great DTs, one domineering DT can create enough tension on the line to make an average "other" DT look great.  In short, we really need just one DT to really work out to solve our defensive line woes (and to help out our LBs).  

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 3:17 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

McKinley...
kind of irks me. He is more of a distraction than solid player. I'm not saying he's bad but he hurts Thomas' Development by trying to make every play every time instead of hitting the guys he has to hit. I do love our DE life though. In fact, and I will fins the article, SI commented on how good that looks where as the Tackle position is in question.
Davis to the Hall! "A leader, once convinced that a particular course of action is the right one, must be undaunted when the going gets tough." Ronald Reagan

by Jon Tollerud on Mar 2, 2008 3:26 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Adams
I don't think Sam Adam's statment was odd, if I'm understanding it right.  (And we're talking about the same thing.)

I think Adams was only talking about the Jim Bates defense.  If I can rephrase his quote as I understand it, it would be "People thing that in the Bates defense, the tackles cover two gaps.  They don't.  I'm only reponsible for 1 gap."  Bates wants his tackles to plug the line, which looks like two gapping.  But I think what Adams was trying to say is that he is only reponsible for 1 gap.

I don't agree with Defoe.  I think the army of lions eats the sheep and elects a new leader.  Is Rod Marinelli more of a lion or a sheep?

by fire Bill Callahan on Mar 5, 2008 5:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear what you're saying.
But frankly, it looks to me like he is 2 gapping in the run contain.  The impression I got from what he was saying is that it may look like a two gap, but there is really something else going on entirely (and it may not be a one gap either).  The run contain is an odd animal, with players doing odd things (like the OLBs vectoring plays instead of zoning or man).  I know how a run contain is run at the HS level, but I'm assuming there are intricacies at the pro level for DT assignments that just aren't apparent to me.

Either way, I would take Adam's word over my opinion or the opinions of the media he was talking to.  I'm sure Sam knows what he is talking about.  I don't get it, but I'm not the "end all" of football defense either.

On the Defoe quote; very nice.  Maybe I should look for a ne sig now that mine has a flaw.  Well done!  : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 6:23 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

When Marcus Thomas
was scouted before the draft, he was labeled a "3 technique-1 gap" type of player, due to his explosiveness and timing.  

Questions:  Looking at the definitions, it seems that 0, 1 and 4 are all more "conservative", and that 2, 3, 5 and up are a bit more aggressive...  Our line looks to have its roots solidly planted in agressive lineplay, so how does this affect your diagnosis of our likely defensive scheme?

How would you describe Engleberger's technique?  Are different techniques better suited to run or pass?

I have been seeing "3 technique" a lot in scouting reports.  In your opinion, do you think it is likely that many DTs are labeled 3s, or do you suspect that perhaps writers are geting a little liberal with the term, like effusing that someone is "explosive" or "gamebreaker".  As in "I really like this guy, he's a 3-technique."  I suppose the assumption here is that some techniques are generally more valuable than others.  Are some techniques considered to have more intrinsic value?

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 2, 2008 9:44 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff as always Styg
It really doesn't have an effect on my diagnosis.  I haven't yet seen which techniques the DLs will tend to line up at.  Players can be moved from position to position on different plays (and can even shift just before the snap of the ball).  Sometimes the line-up of the DLs can help in the diagnosis (you'll recall that in the run contain system the DTs clogged the center while the DEs played wider than most systems).

However, given our current abilities at DE and given Slow's love of aggressive play, I think it is reasonable to assume that he will implement an aggressive system.  My reason for the show blitz system is the familiarity under Coyer, and the zone blitz comes from further back in Slow's past.  I expect one of the two.  Also, the DTs can play 1 or 2 gap in those systems, so there wouldn't be any clues there.

I'm not sure how to describe Eng's technique.  Remember, technique is another word for "position".  Eng can really line up anywhere.  But the second part of your question is a yes; DLs are lined up based on if the play is expected to be run or pass.  However, the trick is that the defensive play may also be factoring in a mid run vs a wide run, and this can affect which technique the DLs will line up in too.

The examples I gave in the story of defining the individual techniques are tendencies.  For example, a 1 tech is almost always a 3-4 NT, but could be a DT in a 4-3.  And while some techs typicaly favor a certain type of assignment, it isn't always the case.  There is some overlap.

As far as the 3 technique lable getting thrown around:

I think it is most often done to impress readers, listeners, or viewers.  The vast majority of fans have no idea what the term means, so I see it as a way to speak over the heads of fans.  Remember, these sports writers and broadcasters should know their audience, and they should speak to majority of the fan base.  Some shows (perhaps Sirius NFL) may have a more sophisticated fan base, but it seems out of place on the networks and newspapers.

I don't know if the label is misused or not.  I've heard it more this year than in the past, so it is the new "big word" in broadcasting.

A player who lines up at 3 technique is valuable because of who he can pair with.  The big thing on defensive lines today is to have one of the DTs at 1 tech playing 2 gap (demanding a double team).  If you have that, PLUS a DT with the athleticism to shoot the tricky B gap, you have a storm in the making.  Most offensive lines are prepared to stop two big guys in the middle and prepare for the pass rush to the outside.  But an effective B gap rush from a 3 tech lined up DT means that the defense can use the LBs in roles other than blitzes.

Not many DTs have the ability to shoot a gap at the 3, and instead are called on to plug the gap.  It is a misnomer to call a player an X-technique player, because technique is just where they line up.  But in the case of the so-called 3 technique DTs, this is the best place to put a guy who is big enough to be a DT, fast enough to shoot the gap, and lucky enough to be paired with a giant 2 gap DT on the other side.

So such a player does have value, but with the caveat that he need to be paired with a DT that can demand double teams.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 5:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Double team...
I always thought that the best D-lineman gets a double team regardless of "technique". For example a very gap-shooting DT would get double-teamed by the C and G to stop him. Or a powerful DT who can collapse the pocket would get double teamed.

Same with DE's. Good ones face double teams often regardless of how they lineup... look at Doom, dude is a small DE and he has to face double teams.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 3, 2008 4:41 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of
What you are saying makes sense.  Here's a couple of examples of why it works out a little different on the field.

First, consider that each OFF lineman is going to pick up who to block on a pass play.  There are five OLs to four DLs.  Right off the bat you are only able to double team one DL.  But now you also have to consider that guys on the OL are going to read possible blitzes from LBs as well.  Now the idea of double teaming becomes more difficult.  (Depending on the play, the RB and FB ussualy don't get assigned a man to pass block.  They block a zone for the QB.  The TE, if he stays in to ass block, will either have the DE or an OLB).

On top of this there are two ways to pass rush (really more, but for our example we'll use the following context).  Fast and agile versus slow and powerful.  I'm really oversimplifying here, but go with me on this.  

Imagine blocking a fast guy.  Heck, just put a body on him, right?  Now imagine blocking (what coaches like to call) a "big ugly".  He may be slow, but he'll keep coming at the QB unless we put a couple of bodies on him.  That's the thinking behind pass blocking gap rushers versus blocking lock and hold guys.  You can give up space to a "big ugly", but eventualy he will get to the play if you don't double him.  The "shooter" will get to the QB too, but not because he's going to overpower anyone.

I hope that helps explain the thinking behind why double teaming isn't always (or even typicaly) an option against gap shooters.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 5:42 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Unless ...
... the guy is big AND fast. Then the Oline is more of less screwed.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 3, 2008 6:37 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got that right! n/t
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 7:02 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Idea for a future column
What exactly is an "ass" block?  I used to think I knew, but with the things floating around on the internet these days, you can never be to sure...  ;)
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2008 2:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

lol
Sounds like a "pancake" (putting a guy on his butt).  I never heard the term, but you're right; a lot of crazy definitions on the net.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 11:51 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Ass blocking
You're the one that said it.  "The TE, if he stays in to ass block, will either have the DE or an OLB)."

by fire Bill Callahan on Mar 5, 2008 5:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for catching that!
I was going to see a couple of old buddies this weekend and was going to ask if they had heard the term.  I would have felt really stupid.  I had to re-read my comments a couple of times before I found where I used it!  LOL  : )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 6:26 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Another good class...
The article was also very interesting. So basically, even though a DT or LB or whoever is a certain technique, they won't necessarily stay and shoot for their gap, depending on the play? Do 1 gappers (for lack of a better word) always shoot where they're assigned? Obviously 2 gappers have more freedom, but plays change depending on what happens, right?

Off topic: It is snowing like CRAZY in Colorado. At least up in the mountains. And this after the nicest day of the Winter. Yesterday it was so nice my dad and I were out playing catch...he was teaching me how to throw a football. I can throw a baseball just fine, but a football...that was entertaining.

http://www.notthisday.com

by Squeaky on Mar 2, 2008 12:35 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Thank you...
...so much on the news from my old home.  I love to hear about anything going on in Colorado.  Best of luck to you on the football lessons!

Correct.  Technique doesn't mean the player will shoot the nearest gap.  Technique is "where" the player will line up, but he may stunt over to a different gap or even play a two gap responsibility.

On your second point, correct again.  A 1 gap player should always shoot the assigned gap, but things happen.  Sometimes the player loses his confrontation on the line, perhaps by getting turned from his gap.  Perhaps the ball gets shovel passed before the player can break the line.  The catch is the philosophy of the defense coordinator:

Do you want your players to swarm to the ball, or to keep their assignments?  Both concepts have major advantages and disadvantages.  The coach's philosophy determines how long the player keeps trying for his gap versus when (or if) he breaks contact and goes for the play in progress versus the one on the drawing board.

Very good questions Squeaky!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 4:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

counter plays
Not sure if this exactly pertains, but in the 1994 Orange Bowl, Nebraska Huskers played a Maimi Huricanes team with a very fast, aggressive defense.  Warren Sapp, Ray Lewis, and I think James Burgess and Kennard Lang were on the Hurricanes then.  Nebraska ran a lot of counters to get the Miami D going one way then ran the ball the other way.

So defenses that fly to the ball can be beat.

by fire Bill Callahan on Mar 5, 2008 5:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You got it
Counters are a great way to stop swarming.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 6:27 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I've always wondered
First, great class, HT. It clears up so much.

I know this is pretty small, but when and why did the noseguard become known as the nosetackle? Seems like that happened somewhere in the 80's. Is that right?

Or so I'm told.

by MN Bronco on Mar 2, 2008 2:49 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Whew!
Now that it is a good question, and you've got me stumped!  Let me ask around some of my coaching mentors and I'll see if I can find that answer for you.  I'm not ashamed to say I don't know everything, but I appreciate the chance to find the answer with you.

When I get the answer I'll put it in this thread, or when this story drops off the front page I'll put it in a future MHR Football Univ. story.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 4:25 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

OK
Well, since I stumped you (which wasn't my intention), I decided to get off my lazy rearend, well, not literally, I guess, I'm still sitting down...

Anyway, I Googled it and found this explanation. It seems to fit right in with your class this week.

http://www.patsfans.com/2003/draft/story/story.php?story_id=114

Or so I'm told.

by MN Bronco on Mar 2, 2008 6:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's confuse things a little more...
Here are two more links I found that may muddy things up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_guard

http://football.about.com/cs/football101/g/gl_noseguard.htm

The second link disagrees with your link, but I think your link is much more accurate.

For what it's worth, in the schemes I ran we used the term "noseguard" to refer to the players on either side of the NT in our goaline defense.  We called the central DT a NT.  So our formation was:

DE - NG - NT - NG - DE

This may or may not be "correct" depending on who you ask, but it simplified naming positions for our use (it is also how I was taught as a young assistant).  Some differences may also be regional.  For example, the use of TB versus RB varies in meaning depending on the state you are in.  I've heard TB refer to a RB without a FB (one back formation) and I've heard it used to refer to any RB.

A lot of terms vary by location (at least at the high school level).  The link you provided sounds like the definitive answer to the question at the pro level.

Thanks for teaching me a thing or two!  An old dog CAN learn new tricks!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 7:26 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

One more thought
In the interest of full disclosure let me add that I wasn't aware that the terms NG and NT aren't interchangeable.  Outside of using the term NG in our goaline situations (five front) I never used the term NG.  But if someone had used the term (NG) to refer to a 3-4 NT I wouldn't have known that was incorrect.

So the bottom line is that while I never misused the term myself, I wasn't aware of the proper use either.

I'm glad that I told you I needed to look further.  My first instinct was that the terms could be used interchangeably.  It always pays to say you don't know if your aren't sure!  Thanks again.  

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 9:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely
One of the things I've learned is that the smartest people I know are the quickest to tell you when they don't know something. I never would've taken the time to even look this up if it wasn't for your class. Thanks for your work, HT.
Or so I'm told.

by MN Bronco on Mar 3, 2008 12:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Question
You said that ZB system of our OL eats up 1-gap approaches, and we can all see that more teams are going to use ZB... on the other hand there are more teams moving towards the 3-4 Def. How do you think that is going to effect the future of the game?

Another point I had is that based on what I saw the key to working against a 2-gap Def is the matchup between our C and the NT... in the past we have done well against 3-4 D's (New England, Dallas, San Diego), but in 07 we struggle really bad after we lost Nalen.

This is one of the main reasons I am not happy with Meyers at C. We need a good C who can handel any NT to allow our ZB scheme to thrive against 2- gap Ds.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 2, 2008 4:48 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent questions!
It depends on the 3-4.  SD and DAL use a one gap 3-4 system.  NE uses a strange 2 gap approach.  PITT is a different system from SD and DAL, but still uses 1 gap.

There really is a balance both ways on the ZB versus a 3-4.  On the one hand, the slants taken by the OL really serve to beat up on the 1 gap DL as well as any unfortunate LB assigned a gap.  On the other hand, if the LBs are held back (as they should be against a ZB) they have the time to react against an OL penetrating to the next level.

On the whole, the ZB is a better match-up over 3-4 formations (even the 2 gap approach of NE).  As you point out, we have done well in the past.

I still agree that Meyers is not the answer at Center.  He is the only player (though) that can fill the role in a pinch, so we certainly need another Center.  I still believe Meyers is an effective guard who can fill any position in the event of injury, and should remain with us while we have the depth issues we have.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 2, 2008 5:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

My little pet idea
I don't like Guards... they aren't as useful as center or tackles. If I was in charge of a team I would have 4 centers and 4 tackles without a single guard.

I could either go like this:

LT . C . C . C . RT

Or

LT . T . C . T . RT

This would give the team much more protection against injuries. Here is how it would work:

  1. Tackles are harder to find than guards, so a team could pick 4 or 5 tackles in hope to find 2 good ones. Then turn the other ones into OG or backup T/G. Tackles are usually more athletic and can move better laterally and in space. Excellent for a ZB system if you can get them to play lower.
  2. You could also draft more centers than you need to find a really good one. Then use the others as G or backup C/G.
We have a good possible way right now. We have a good C/G in Hamilton, a decent C/G in Meyers, and  Nalen is C. So what about this O-line:

RT Pears . RG Meyers . C Nalen . LG Hamilton . LT Harris

Three centers in the middle... I really like this for a Zone blocking line.

If you wanted to be a bit more powerful then you would use tackles who can play guard too (or guards who played tackle in college). Ryan Harris plays both positions and is a good example of this type of player.

What do you guys think?

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 3, 2008 4:57 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
I've never coached an offensive line, let alone an offense (I've had the fun/pressure of stepping in for an ejected head coach a few times).  What I know about offensive lines is what I needed to know as a defensive coordinator (and that was only at the high school level).

So I don't have a definitive answer for you.  But here's a reasoned guess.  There is probably a good reason why this isn't done from high school up through the pros (or someone would be getting pretty rich right now putting it into practice).  My guess is that each position is more specialized than you or I can imagine.  For instance, no way in heck I line up DEs in the center and DTs to the outside because my experience tells me that I need big bodies in confined spaces and smaller (but faster) bodies in outside spaces.

I imagine the intracisies of the responsibilties of guard versus center (versus tackle) are such that players have to be very specialized.

On the other hand, people have to come up with ideas that might sound crazy to orthodoxy and authority (like old coaches), but that's how new and better ideas come about that improve things.  So you may have a point!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 5:53 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's an NFL rules question
In amir's T C C C T formation, who would be allowed to snap the ball?  Is it a rule that ONLY a center can snap the ball or that ONLY one person can be the snapper.  You can snap it to anyone in the backfield, so is it possible that anyone who wants to can snap it?

That would introduce some interesting play configurations, where the QB lines up behind a strongside center, or you snap the ball directly from a weakside center to a weakside RB...  Perhaps that would be a little unfair to the defense...

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2008 2:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Half an answer
At the HS level where I coached it was illegal for a player other than the center to snap the ball.  The center was defined as the centermost O-lineman, so even in a hypothetical T-C-C-C-T only the centermost "center" could make the snap.

I've scoured the net looking for the NFL rule.  The only hint I found was a passage on a site that said "...usualy the center", but every other reference I found specified center.  I don't have a NFL rule book (NFL.com has an abbreviated version, but no help).

My guess is only the center, but I may be incorrect.  Only the rulebook would be definitive.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 11:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Not in the NFL
I know for a fact that a team is allowed to line up like this:

G . C . G . T . T

Which is an offset o-line with both OTs moving to one side. It is done if the D overloads one side of the line by putting in an extra DE.

It happened in 07, Ravens vs Browns. Thomas (#3 pick in the draft) moved over to the other side.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 4, 2008 5:33 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a couple of questions.
I see that one OT in the formation would be moved (not both), since the weak OT just motiond to the right of the strongside OT.  But I'm a little confused.

You can only put one man in motion on the play for the offense.  So let's say the D overloads one side as in the example you give.  Now the weak tackle had to motion to the right side.  The ball was placed on the field before the motion could have happened.

  1. Why not do the simple thing and audible a run play to the side that isn't overloaded?
  2. More importantly, since the ball would have been placed by the official in front of the center, how was the ball moved without the move being considered a "snap"?  I don't get how the player who had the ball placed in front of him (the center) could have switched positions without two men in motion either.  It seems either the ball moved (a snap) or two players moved (an illegal motion).  So how did a non center get the ball to be able to snap it?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 4, 2008 6:03 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not how I wanted it.
For the example of the OT moving off the other side, it can be a motion play, or it can simply be an alignment. But that's besides the point... All I wanted to say was the the person who snaps the ball doesn't have to be the middle lineman.

As far as the 3 Center alignment is concerned, what I meant was that the O-line walks up to the line in their normal fashion. Then, when the D is facing them ready to get set, all the linemen take one step to the left of right... now you have an offset center.

What's that advantage? Not much. It's just a trick play... suprise the D. It isn't going to be a regular formation.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 4, 2008 10:58 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying....
...that the official would place the ball at scrimmage, and then the line would shift?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 5, 2008 12:01 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes ... or
Or after the official plays the ball, they walk up to it with the normal center standing over the ball. Then they all move one spot to the left or right, BEFORE they get set. That way it isn't a motion. It's just another formation.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 6, 2008 7:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting.
I'm not aware of the rule on it, but that certainly sounds feasible.  I would hope the defense has the presence of mind to shift with the offense, and perhaps adjust the OLB on the side away from the shift to pursue the play wide.  Left unblocked the OLB can come ensure the RB doesn't cut back the other way.

It sounds like the key would be an immediate snap before the defense adjusts.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 9:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

YEEESSSS
That was exactly what I was thinking!!! I just thought that it was a little too far out there for me to write it in the first time I introduced the idea.

Love it.

But you can't move the ball. You would have to shift the O-line one man over (maybe as an adjustment at the line of scrimmage). So in truth you would get an offset line, which is done, but usually by moving both tackles to one side.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 4, 2008 5:29 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

2 gap vs ZB
As I understand it, lines that cut block don't work very well against 2 gap linemen.  If the linemen don't move, you can't cut them.  But does that matter?

Say Gilbert Brown lines up at the 0 or 1 and is reponsible for both A gaps.  (Just an example, not sure what the Packers were really doing.)  Elway tosses the ball to Terell Davis who sweeps right.  If Brown stays home in the A gaps, he's out of the play that's going wide.  If Gilbert starts going right, he gets cut.

If I remember right, there were a lot of outside runs in the Super Bowl.  Did the Packers have weak linebackers?  What happens if they had a MIKE like Ray Lewis?  I think what made the Raven's such a dangerous D was having Lewis behind a young(er) Sam Adams and Saragusa.  Running up the middle was running into a brick wall, and if you ran outside, Lewis would eat you up.  If the Packers had a strong linebacker like that, would it have neutralized Denver's outside runs?

by fire Bill Callahan on Mar 5, 2008 5:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct again
1 gap is harder to use than 2 gap against ZB and for the reason that you give.  1 gappers get cut blocked when they pursue the play, or get blocked at a bad angle (for them) if they are slanting.  But the 2 gap DL has that moment of stillness or even a drop back half step that lets them counter the scheme.

In fact, I had a debate with a Packers fan in one of my earliest stories (a game prep against GB if you want to look it up) where I mentioned the concept of countering the ZB with the drop back.  He disagreed that there was such a thing.  At the time I didn't bring up 2 gaps schemes because I was keeping my stories simple and didn't want to use big terms.  Now with the University posts going up I feel better about using the terms.

I'm very intrigued by your thoughts on the SB and Lewis.  The Packers had good OLBs.  I think Denver just had excellent OLmen and an elite RB.  With Elway's threat in the pass game no one could really just play the run.  We had a very balanced offense.  And don't forget Sharpe at TE, both as a blocker and receiver.  Throw in misdirection plays and it was a perfect storm against any defense.

Would a Lewis have made a difference?  I agree with you that a big part of Lewis' greatness was the protection he received from his line.  He had years without pretection where he was playing on pure talent with little help.  But give him protection and he was a machine.

There's no way to know of course.  My guess is that Denver would have continued to run to the outside to mitigate Lewis who would start in the middle.He would have the speed to stay with Davis, but would have to avoid the OLs hitting the second level.  Denver probably would have schemed for him, but the Pack defense would have had a drawing board too.

Overall, if you threw in an Adams and a Saragusa to go with Lewis I think it might have made a difference.  But Lewis himself maybe not.  If the run had been slowed a bit Denver might have resorted to even more passing too.  Tough call.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 6:54 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Something else about Nalen
he was regarded by his teammates as "one of the strongest centers to ever play".  High praise indeed, and I remember that quote coming from zimmerman when he got interviewed up in his cabin about the new media requiorements for olineman before last season.

His strength combined with his mind and agility are near irreplacable in just one player.  

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 2, 2008 7:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny thing is that he is pretty small
Most people keep thinking size = power. I am one of those people, too, most times.

Obviously it isn't that simple.

Size, speed, angle ... I love this stuff

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 3, 2008 5:02 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks HT
That really helped clear up the technique business for me.  When I heard/saw the term bandied about, I had been assuming it had something do do with the "techniques" the player could use to rush, much like you hear about a "5-tool" baseball player, and assumed 3-technique was better that 2.  Sounds like even some of the sports writers don't know the term.

Now for a question:  on "obvious" passing downs, the Broncos (and others) change one or both of the tackles for a more "end-like" player, like Ekuban in '06, Crowder or Peterson last year.  How, if at all, does this change gap assignments?  Are these "interior ends" more likely to shoot one gap over the other, are they more likely to have a 2-gap vs. 1-gap assignment, or, like all things in life, does it depend?

Thanks,
--Jason

by poorboywilly on Mar 3, 2008 4:46 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

What happens...
...when you bring in an end to play DT during an obvious pass play:

The incoming player almost always plays one gap (shooting a gap for the pass rush), while the existing DT 2 gaps and tries like heck to force double coverage.

Bringing in DEs for BOTH DTs is very unusual.  If the DTs are winded and there is a depth problem at DT, or if there is an OL or blocker (like a FB) who looks hobbled, you might have all four lineman as DEs shoot a gap and have a LB "jack" (put a hit on) the hobbled player.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 3, 2008 11:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

46 Pass Rush
If I understand the 46 correctly, the left DE and the two DTs line up over the gaurds and center, and the right DE lines up wide outside LT.  This forces the line to block one on one with the right OT out of the picture.  And if you blitz WILL, there would be 5 pass rushers vs 4 linemen.

What does the offensive line do to counter that?  It seems like even if you didn't blitz LBs and DBs, it would be very hard to block a defensive line that lines up this way.  But there must be a way to counter it.

ESPN was showing highlights after the 2005 Steeler/Colts playoff game about how Pitts blitzes just ate up Indy's line.  They showed several plays where a guard would try to pick up the outside rusher, then commented that the guard takes the inside guy, the tackle takes the outside.  Basically it made Indy's line look very incompetent.

by fire Bill Callahan on Mar 5, 2008 5:55 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent question on the 46!
Your comments on the pass rush are accurate.  While the 46 is known as a "run stopping" defense, the pass rush is a doozy!

Teams have three considerations in countering the rush.  Keep in mind that the pass rush is almost an all or nothing proposition, since there is one safety in the box, and he is not in a position to backpedal enough to assist in much pass coverage.

The first key is for offenses to make quick passes.  In obvious pass downs the 46 minded coach might change formations, but if he leaves in the 46 defense you can pretty much count on him bringing the house.  So the QB needs options for quick releases.  Long developing plays won't withstand the pressure the QB is under.

The second key is to keep your backs in to block.  You might send out your TE (since, as you point out the rush is geared to the weak side), but it depends on the defensive alignment.  In fact, you raise a good point about the 46.  Offenses frequently have to waste an extra few seconds against a 46 because the alignment of the SS, left DE and the SAM often creates the need to audible the TE to block or go short for a quick safety valve.  But the backs (RB and FB) have to pretty much stay back to pass block.

Last, on almost every pass play you want to pull the FS.  If the FS can be pulled enough you get one to one match-ups on the other side of the field.

Excellent question!  You have a pretty keen insight on a factor about the 46 most people don't think about.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2008 6:13 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

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