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2008 Draft - "Upon Further Review in the Booth..."

A companion to the in depth review of players taken in the 2008 draft that have been written by Styg50...

There comes a time during a good Broncos game when a play goes horribly wrong. We all groan, kick the dog, throw a brick at the tv, or go out and drink our Zappa Juice. And then (like Death and Dying author Dr. Kubler-Ross says) we hit the next stage of grief and get depressed.

BUT WAIT! Coach Shanahan throws the red flag onto the field, and thousands of eyes shoot up to the replay screen in the sky!

"All, all forsook the friendless guilty mind. All... but HOPE. HOPE lingered yet behind!"

We've gone through a draft with our eyes on the ball, many have felt kicked in the gut, but I'm about to make the argument that upon further review the Denver War Room had their eyes on the entire field and saw some things we missed. I'm throwing out the red flag, and asking for us to consider the following facts.

For starters, we have to get out of the woods to see the forest. The best players are found at the top of the draft, and we know the names better up there. When a player gets taken that we didn't want, it is at least someone we know and someone who is ranked high. A good example is Clady. Some of the MHR faithful didn't want Clady, but they knew him and knew he was considered solid at what he does. We accpeted him right away.

But in the middle and lower rounds we're not aware of who everyone is. Starting with our third pick onwards we began to see Denver take players we hadn't heard off. To many, this was a sign that Denver had lost their way. Player recognition is automaticaly lost in the mid and lower rounds by implication, simply because of the number of players and the reasonable expectation that fans will focus on the players they really want. It's a trap we all fall into.

This brings me to my second point. The only TRUE experts are the ones in NYC. The people who spend up to 16 hours a day traveling the country and staying away from their families while they study film, salary cap implications, and write and re-write software programs that simulate draft scenarios. These are people who's very jobs ride on being the best. And no, I'm not talking about the sports media experts. I'm talking about the guys in the field of battle - managers and scouts.

But everyone feels like an expert. When there's a fire, and a child is in the house, every parent just knows that they can run in and save their child. In panic, as they fight the fire fighters, they don't realize the delay they are causing in getting elite rescuers into the inferno. Everyone who has ever waited over an hour in an emergency room lobby just knows that their pain is an emergency, and is convinced that they need to be seen right away, not realizing that the staff is tied up dealing with a heart attack in the trauma room and waiting for your labs to come back (something they have no control over). Heck, I feel like an expert sometimes, and I constantly need to remind myself that the pros are a far stretch from the high school game. I need to remember how many times the shoes was on the other foot so I can remember to keep myself in line. If I had a dime for every parent that had played in HS and considered himself an expert (but never coached), or every local sports reporter that had a fancy job but never even played the game, or every person (and this happened every year and almost every couple of weeks) that gave me advice based on what they saw on their "Madden NFL" game at home. I need to remember that now I'm presuming to outguess the Denver Broncos, and I had better remember my own experiences first.

Third, consider the issues in a draft we have zero knowledge of. Styg50 has written a lot about character. It's easy for us to forget the importance of "player character" in a draft. I can't begin to tell you how many times I made (or saw) coaching decisions based on which kid had his "head screwed on straighter". The decision was a mystery to fans and families, but sometimes we needed a kid who was a leader, or meant what he said, or wouldn't go out and get suspended before a big game. We got burned last year with a lot of non-typical behavior problems in the Denver organization, and it looks like we are fixing that this year. Character DOES convert o the playing field and the locker room. It's not just cliche. Denver (and other teams) use tests and interviews to uncover character, including interviews with the player's coaches.

Fourth, who really gets most of the people they picked before the draft? Unless someone has a chrystal ball, it's unlikey that the team gets most of the picks in line with most of the fans.

I know I'm being ungrateful about something else. I noticed that, setting aside the names I liked, Denver got the positions I wanted. I wanted a couple of OL picks (got 'em). A return guy and a project WR (got it). Even a FB (which most of us would swear Denver would never go for (guess what?). I wanted a DT, and I wanted a RB (got 'em). I wanted another LB for depth and STs, and a SAF for the same reasons (got 'em). The only thing I got that I didn't want was a CB. And I'm complaining?

I have a daughter who is kindergarden aged (yes, old MR. and MRS. HT waited a long time). Bless her heart, every year she gets presents for Christmas or her birthday and she looks thrilled with everything. Some day she'll get older, and maybe she'll get something she doesn't really want and she won't hide it so well. Well shame on me. I asked for 8 things and got all 8, but I got something else I didn't ask for. Poor Mike Shanahan knew I loved DBs and he threw in an extra CB for my draft day, and I'm going to cry because it wasn't what I wanted? : )

Well, sometimes you have to be big and own up to mistakes. Over the last two days I watched the draft closer than ever. I also did it with a bunch of friends (all of you out there). I caught myself making the mistakes listed in the above paragraphs. The funny thing is, the longer I looked at the choices we made, the better I understood them and the more I appreciate them. (Ok, the CB is still too zone for my taste. But I still like his STs value).

Clady - not a sexy pick, but the right one.

Royal - return man, future slot WR.

K-lich - has time to develop, and (according to Styg) a terrific player that was flying on stealth before the draft.

Williams - I'm shooting straight here. Denver sees something that I don't, but that's why they get paid the big bucks. But more on him in a minute.

Torain - we somehow managage to get great talent late at RB, and we think we know more than the Broncos managment? He must be good.

Powell - meet your new DT. Some say he might be a steal.

Larsen - read Styg's excellent piece.

Barrett - In a weak SAF class I still managed to hear this guy's name from time to time.

Hillis - Ok folks, we've been wanting a true FB. We got one.

And now for a little surprise or two. MHR ace contributer Zappa turned me onto the SI draft grades. While the two obvious picks (Clady and Royal) scored high, the rest of the picks were in tight right behind them. According to SI, on a scale of .01 to 4.99, Denver never went below a 3.37 Further, the picks for our SAF, DT, and yes even our CB ranked just below (and in the case of Barrett) just above our second pick (!). Read the grades here.

Upon further review, perhaps we can agree that this draft may be better than many of us first thought. I'm finding myself warming up to some of the decisions already. Either way, let's keep something in mind that MHR veteran Artic Bronco points out in a comment under another story. These are our guys now. Let's give them the chance they deserve.

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Great post, I agree with you completely

I really can’t complain with this draft. I can’t. We don’t know how good these guys are going to be and we’ll have to wait for them to pan out.

Although I have to say, sometimes the Madden game is correct and gives you some good insights on certain players. However, I would not advise you to base all your opinions off of the game. I myself am far from being an expert (but I hate the expert term used synonymously with drafts). We still don’t know what’s going to happen, I mean it’s not even the day AFTER the draft yet? We should just sit back, relax, and wait, because Denver pieced together some nice free agent signings and worked on their special teams with this draft. I’m looking to a much better season than last year, RIGHT AFTER that insanely long summer we’ve got coming up without football :)

by phantom818 on Apr 27, 2008 8:32 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Without football?

My good friend, football is every day at MHR! We have a little while to learn about our picks (more will be coming in, like statements form Shanahan, etc). More suprise deals will get done involving players, camp is around the corner…

...and of course there will be MHR Radio, news, chats, team history, analysis, classes, and more. We’ll keep things rolling!

I agree though, we are an improved team over last year. I hate to say it, but so is KC and oak, while SD remains good.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 27, 2008 8:40 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well hey

WELCOME BACK TO THE WILD WILD AFC WEST OF OLD WOO HOO!

I do want to enroll in your university over the summer as well…who do I send the tuition to? :-)

I need to keep learning about football as a whole lol and then remember what I learn long term.

by phantom818 on Apr 27, 2008 8:46 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Excellent HT

I believe that the AFC west did phenomenal in this draft and even Oakland and KC will keep it tough this year. Since I posted that here are my draft grades:
KC- A+ for now
SD- B for now
DEN- B for now
OAK- C for now

I think all four teams strengthened themselves well. I would have rated Oak a little high but they flew with less picks for Vets who have a lot to prove. once again great piece. I hope you will help us the rest of the reloading season with maybe a series on what each position means in Blue and Orange and how it works to our system. I think that would help a lot of people myself included in questions like why we drafted a fullback.

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Apr 27, 2008 8:45 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Well now we can get back to a legitimate fullback...right?

Anderson and Droughns played there I believe and K. Johnson wasn’t all THAT bad. More blockers can’t hurt. Plus, the dude may not have run much, but when he played, he blocked for D-Mac, F-Jones, and that running game oriented offense.

by phantom818 on Apr 27, 2008 8:49 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Part of Hillis's job will be to protect Cutler.

Hillis is listed as fullback for convenience, but Arkansas played him predominantly as the wingback in a modified Single-Wing offense. That placed him right up with the TE and the strongside tackle on a lot of plays. From that position, his assignments varied widely from play to play; he was expected to block linemen, linebackers, safeties and corners routinely. But a wingback is also used a lot in deception in a Single Wing; Arkansas often used Hillis as a blocking decoy, then a pass receiver in the flat. He also made a good “end-around” candidate; run the play to the strong side and hand the ball off to the wing just as the defense takes its first following step. He’s seen a huge range of play responsibilities and handled them well.

Most importantly, he’ll be a good blocker in the backfield for Cutler as some of the new linemen get on-field experience. I would anticipate more players devoted to QB protection this year than what we’ve seen for this reason.

I’m impressed with Hillis. He was lost in the McFadden-Jones hype, but he was very valuable to their success in college. I think this was a great pickup for Denver.

by hooper on Apr 27, 2008 9:13 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

As a single wing vet...

...he may fit in closely with the three TE systems I’ve written about before. They are very identical. This is something to get excited about! (None of the schools in my old stomping grounds ran the single wing, but I’ve always been a huge fan, even as a defensive coord).

Thanks for the valuable info!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 27, 2008 9:32 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sure thing!

I’m a Broncos fan (woohoo!) but I’m out in Tennessee for school, so I’ve seen the Arkansas offense a little closer than most. I love the Single Wing concept, though I don’t know nearly enough about it. The best gauge for Hillis is to find McFadden highlights and look for him. More often than not, it’s Hillis that makes the most important block for a big gain.

by hooper on Apr 27, 2008 9:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think Hoosierteacher wrote an article about the single wing a bit back

And a good read HT!

I am almost done posting about our draft picks. I will have Barrett and Hillis up in just a few moments, I was taking a break for dinner and dog down time!

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Apr 27, 2008 9:38 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Here is the closest thing I could find to what I've written.

Here’s the article.

It’s not about the single wing, and I could spend days on the wing. The wing can be run as a power or finesse system, and looks and runs almost nothing like football as we know it.

It is heavily modified in the current construct as run by colleges, but a few high schools run the original systems.

I’ve got to get to bed, but in brief, no QB. Either a FB takes the snap, or two backs line up so that either can get the snap. The multiple backs can either block for each other, hand off to each other, make short screens, reverse, or lob to the only receiver who lines up wide. Misdirection is big in the finesse systems, and mutiple blockers in small space is huge in the power systems.

A lot of times in high school systems (and in the old pro systems) the backs get in a goofy formation behind the center. Just a second before the OL goes into their stance, the multiple backs either take a step in some direction or change their facing, followed by a spilt second when the team is all in stance and the ball gets snapped. The defense has little (really no) time to adjust, and even if they did it is almost impossible to read. I’ve watched game tapes of high schools that run the system and just marvel at it. It’s the equivelent of watching basketball all of your life, and then seeing the Globetrotters for the very first time.

I’d love to see a team try it out. Atlanta was closest (with the Vick type QB and some of their heavy formations), but still nowhere close. It may come into play when the League evolves more towards the two and eventual 3 TE systems and not just formations.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 27, 2008 9:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I thought getting the FB from a school

who had two 1st round RB drafted was a huge STEAL for us. But that’s just my opinion. :)

by Zappa on Apr 27, 2008 9:38 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think

Denver did well, but KC had probably the best draft with 2 #1’s. But thats ok, cuz Brodie Croyle is still their qb. SD I think had too many reaches and a so-so draft. But I really think the fumble prone McFadden will be a bad pick for Oakland but good for the Broncos and rest of the West. Plus this is year #3 for Cutler and history has shown that the 4 QB’s that have played under Shanny for 3 straight season all have made probowls that 3rd season. With Young and Elway winning the Bowl, and Griese and Plummer going to por bowls. Plus the broncos have drafted their starting LT.

by broncfanstuckinsd on Apr 27, 2008 9:26 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Good points

Not only Cutler but Doom are entering their third seasons. This year will be the coming of age for our outstanding ‘06 draft class. We’ll also get a better read on how good last year’s class was. They’ll all improve, but won’t be fully up to speed until ‘09. I for one am still high on and looking for noticeable improvement from Thomas. For all of our draft-day excitement over this year’s draft these guys (the ones who survive) aren’t going to begin having an impact until 2009-10, with the exception of Clady and possibly also Royal. Oa.., er, I mean oakland, is still going for flash and dash, God bless ‘em. Hope that continues. I think our o-line’s return to health, plus Clady, plus Cutler’s maturation will enable us to outscore a lot of teams (which will take fewer points with our offseason additions and the growth of last year’s draftees).

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Apr 28, 2008 7:16 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Back to the basics

Denver does one thing better than anyone else in the league and that is run the football.
We are at our best when we control the clock and methodically move the ball down the field. We are not a McFadden, flashy, style running team nor are we a Brady/Moss throw the ball 80 yds every down team. We are very basic. We are going to run the ball and you can stop us or you can’t.
It’s simple math. Three yards on three plays = punt. 4 yards…..well the chains simply move. That one extra yard is the difference between falling forward when you get tackled and falling backward.
Now let’s look at this draft.
“Hillis is one of the best fullbacks in the draft.” (that one yard we need)
Torain is “a tough runner who is rarely brought down on first contact” (again, that one extra yard)
Kory Lic is “a physical drive blocker who simply runs over people”
Personally I don’t think that Clady has the cranial capacity to make the team but that is a different story.
I know that this is a very simplistic look at our offense and we need much more than one yard but I can’t tell you how many times we were stopped on third and short this year and we couldn’t move the chains like we used to. When we had TD in the 90’s we had a good fullback, a consistant running back, a stong OL and we always fell forward!
Let’s hope these three can work together to bring back the glory days.

by danver on Apr 27, 2008 10:36 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Clady and intelligence

I’m not putting too much into the Wonderlic test in this case for a few reasons. My background before my current career was education and counseling (at the adolescent level). As a disclaimer, others did the testing in our practice. not me.

There are a couple of reasons why I’m not big on the Wonderlic in Clady’s case. First, the test is a standardized test that is widely used, but its value is not in depth. It seems to me that if a candidate scores high there is little need for further testing. If a candidate scores low the teams look further. To me, it is reasonable to assume that Clady scored low and this set off red flags. Teams interested in Clady then did their own testing (much more in depth, individualized, and focused) to see if there is a problem and what it is.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Clady did poorly on the Wonderlic, and every team that looked at him brought in their own psychometrists (psych test folks) to look at him further. A lot of teams have good relationships and share such information with a release from the candidate. Clady may have just had a bad day, he may have a learning order but be otherwise very intelligent, he may have difficulties with tests (some people border on being phobic about testing), or he may not be the brightest guy on the field but still has functional knowledge in football and enough intelligence to learn.

Either way, you bring up a good example of the point of my article. We as fans focus on tests like the Wonderlic, but the scouts will have more in depth testing as well as academic records to put together a full spectrum.

I like your point on power running. It isn’t flashy, but it is hard to stop and very effective. Perhaps K-Lich, Torain and Hillis are a big part of getting back to our roots. Good point there!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 28, 2008 8:06 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Way late to the game with this

And I don’t have a link handy to back it up, but Clady said that one reason he did poorly on the Wonderlic test was that he had just torn a pectoral muscle during one of the drills and part of his mind was focused on trying to figure out the severity. So I chalk that one up to a bad day.

by MattR on Apr 30, 2008 9:50 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Solid, Reflective Post

Precisely what I’ve come to expect from you, HT. I’ve few quick thoughts on this draft myself.

Bizarrely, the player I’m happiest to have is Lichtensteiger—four-year starter, team co-captain, and co-MVP with an ideal mean streak, imho. I’m no expert by any means, but in terms of build and hands, he reminds me of NE’s Dan Koppen. If anything, he’s more powerful than Koppen, but not quite as savvy. Fair enough, Kory has time to learn. I think we’re good so long as Denver learned something from the Eslinger debacle and doesn’t put him on the practice squad, because if they do he’s gone.

In a similar vein, I’m not extremely high on Clady; I’m willing to wait and see, and will, of course, support him accordingly. Here’s hoping his football IQ is where it needs to be, because his body certainly is. Then again, Good ol’ George Foster, graduate of Stanford University, had all kinds of problems at the T position; so I must admit that book smarts and on-field, “application” smarts aren’t precisely the same thing. There are many kinds of intelligence-street smarts, book smarts, et cetera-and I hope Clady has the football kind in spades.

I can’t quantify it, but I have a good feeling about Royal. Having looked at some blurry YouTube footage until my eyes almost popped out, I’m convinced that he plays faster than his combine speed. His second gear on kicks makes it look like the other guys are running backwards, but it might just be me.

I’ve been a silent FB advocate for a long time, and as has been stated by another member, his contribution to McFadden’s and Jones’s seasons shouldn’t be underestimated. I only pray that the guy has no more neck problems, because he seems like he could develop into an ideal Griffith (wasn’t he a bit of a tweener as well, HT, and a converted HB at that?) pass-catcher, lead-blocker. Hell, I’m worried about the guy doing stand-up blocks in the backfield when LBs come steaming in, but I think when he blocks on the move he looks damn good. Although it isn’t the same position, when TE Sharpe came into the league, the knock was that he was a tweener too, and that he couldn’t block. So what did Shanahan do? He devised schemes so the majority of Sharpe’s blocking was on the move, which he excelled at because he neutralized the leverage advantage. Obviously, this is quite different with a FB, but I get the feeling that Hillis is a special kind of player that will allow Shanny to rethink some schemes to play to his strengths.

Shannon talks about this blocking in the Top Draft Steals piece @ NFL.com: http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d802200bf

by Arturo Bandini on Apr 28, 2008 11:14 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

I understand the field speed versus combine speed issue.

I am a tall guy (6’4”1/2) and a little heavier than I was back in college. I played rugby. Despite my long legs I was never fast. I had good endurance and could keep moving forever, but hated sprints. I also have an awkward form when I run. My workout numbers were always terrible in speed.

Despite that, people thought that I was fast. As a scrummer I didn’t touch the ball much, but when I did I ran like Hell (out of pure fear)! When I was trying to position myself to stay near the scrummers but trying to make a good wrap I looked fast but was really just taking great angles.

Yes, Griffith was a convert. But in my mind he should have been a FB from the start.

Another good point on Sharpe was his devotion to excercise and diet. Sharpe was like (forgive the comparison) Bruce Lee when it came to devotion (obsession) to diet and excercise. Sharpe had an awesome interview on this topic, and was almost like an additional trainer on this point with team mates. Given that devotion, it’s not surprising that Sharpe was able to “remorph” to fit a different need. That’s an extreme example though, and very few people (even athletes) have such a devotion. (The guy doesn’t eat a thing unless it has to do with his fitness program. Ever)

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 28, 2008 3:33 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Re: lines.

You’ve brought up a great point-a point that is most likely instinct rather than teachable: that the lines one picks on a football field, and in a sport, can increase game speed by a genuine margin. For some reason, this reminds me of a doco I saw on Jerry Rice awhile back. Everyone from Bill Walsh on down made it clear that he wasn’t the fastest receiver out there, but he had the uncanny ability to change direction and speed fluidily so he could accelerate in and out of breaks—essentially, so he could catch the ball at its most catchable point and already be accelerating before he did so. As a result, many of his long catches happen when the defender is flat-footed and he already has a head of steam. The way Jerry described it: it was all about angles.

You bring a solid point about your Sharpe too. The man was crazy-disciplined, and still is, I’d imagine. He added even more muscle when he got to the pros and was able to outmatch quite a few players with his strength alone. Here’s hoping we got a few this year that might be similar in that respect. I’d like to hope so.

by Arturo Bandini on Apr 29, 2008 8:50 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Good thoughts Arturo

Something else that always intrigued me:

I coached track and football (and a few other things). I noticed that track guys almost never converted into “football speed”. I heard other coaches make the same observation. There are several variables that may fit in, such as -

1. In football one is encumbered with equiptment,
2. In football one is often running “guarded” because of the sense of danger,
3. In football one is often called on to change direction.

The best converts weren’t track at all. Wrestling was best (I think it was the conditioning), followed closely by basketball (ball handling, “mixing it up in limited space”, thinking “plays” while executing physical tasks instead of just doing your own thing).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 29, 2008 9:19 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Fascinating.

I’ve always wondered about that, HT, and it’s great to read your thoughts on it. I seem to recall a real run in the late 80s/early 90s where every ‘converted sport’ athlete in the NFL (bar Bo Jackson and Deion) was a track star—and not a single one stuck. Maybe this was because of James Lofton (OAK)? If I recall, he was a long-jumper, not a speedster, like many of the sprinters converted to WR.

Although I certainly agree with 1 and 2, I think 3 might be the biggest—or, perhaps, even a combination of 2 and 3 at a full sprint. It’s interesting to read that you’ve found wrestling to be best, and I wonder if that mainly applies to certain positions: say, both lines, because it seems to me that learning leverage and developing tight body control, as well conditioning, can help a lot in those trenches. Basketball though, I can absolutely see. Not simply because of A. Gates (SD), but because of the eye-hand coordination in tracking a ball, and also finding an open spot on the floor (or seam in the D) to hit a shot (or get open for a pass). Also, if it’s a bigger player, some experience posting up and going for rebounds can track very well to TE and WR. Most of all, I think basketball requires a lot of fast-twitch muscle ability to cut (which it seems to me that b-ball players do more than any pro athletes, as they do multiple times down the floor in one 24 second cycle), which, going on what you’ve stated above, really seems to translate.

Good stuff! Cheers for the thoughts, HT. I’m always fascinated by the mechanics of sport.

by Arturo Bandini on Apr 29, 2008 11:16 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs


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