Help solve the "OL" depth chart mystery
Here's a question I've been mulling even before the draft.
What will the depth chart look like for the offensive line? Earlier this reloading season Coach Shanahan said he was moving Kuper to OT. We took that to mean that Harris isn't going to start after all, and Pears will be at RT. With Hamilton at LG and competition from Kuper gone, we knew that Holland would get the RG spot. Nalen keeps his spot at OC, with the capable (but aging) Wiegmann behind him. With the loss of Meyers, we had no back-up at OG.
Then we draft Ryan Clady and Shanahan announces that Clady should start at LT. I believe this to be true. Clady is a 12th overall pick and knows the ZB system. So what do we do with the depth chart now?
Below I have filled in names and positions that are pretty much assured (let's not worry about which players at OT and OG will back up which side. For our purposes let's assume that either OG and OT will back up either side).
Follow the directions to determine which depth chart we will use. The key is whether we use Kuper at OG or OT. By following the directions you'll come up with one of two scenarios that I'll discuss in a moment. Remember, one slot will be blank at the end.
If you follow the order I lay out, we either have Kuper at RG or RT. If you put him at RT you have Pears fall back to back-up (where Harris is), and you give Holland the start at RG. If Kuper gets the start at RG then you give Pears the start at RT with Holland backing up the guard positions. Both are reasonable views. A third possibility is unlikely, but possible. This would have Harris getting the start at one of the OT positions.
The Kuper at RG scenario -
I like this. Kuper plays his natural position as an interior blocker (though he is a very capable OT) opposite of Hamilton. Pears continues to develop at RT. Harris gets more time to learn the ropes as a back-up at OT. Holland drops to OG back-up, so we have depth at OG too. If we go this route, we have to disregard what Coach said earlier in the reloading season.
The Kuper at RT scenario -
This is what Mike said at the end of the season, but before the draft. In this scenario we have Pears in a back-up role (along with Harris). The depth at OT is better that the first scenario. At OG we have Hamilton at LG and Holland at RG, but nothing much in the way of back-up at the OG positions.
The last possibility is Harris as starter, but this looks much more and more unlikely (given both the comment on moving Kuper to OT and drafting Clady at OT).
I think the first scenario is very much the most likely way to go, and the best. What are your thoughts? Vote in the poll!
(One quick note. I placed K-Lich as third at OC. Nalen and Wiegmann will both retire soon, so K-Lich will get his shot in a year or so. If Nalen is injured, expect Wiegmann to play. If Nalen retires at year's end, expect K-Lich to start in '09 with Wiegmann as a back-up / mentor).
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Kuper
I think Kuper will start somewhere.
I wish my pic was as good as broncofanstuckinsd
by firstfan on
Apr 28, 2008 5:35 PM MDT
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I have been pondering this as well.
It will all play out in camp, but I am going out on a limb and speculate the guards will be Kuper and Hamilton with Holland as back up. The Tackles will be Clady and Harris with Pears as back up. Centers as indicated. This actually gives us a great deal of flexibility as Kuper can move anywhere on the line in case two of any position go down. Whatcha think oh wise one?
I wish my pic was as good as broncofanstuckinsd
by firstfan on Apr 28, 2008 5:34 PM MDT 0 recs
I think we've given up on Harris too soon...
the guy had a bad back last year. Give him time to develop! I think he’ll become solid at the BRAVO position. ;)
by Zappa on Apr 28, 2008 5:39 PM MDT 0 recs
I hope he gets a chance to recover too.
It looks like camp this year is his chance to get it done.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 28, 2008 5:41 PM MDT
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I voted Kuper at OG, Pears at OT.
We get depth at both OT and OG this way (remember that Hamilton is a concussion possibility). As much as I thought Harris was coming along, there are too many signs (Coach promoting Kuper and CLady brought in) that Harris is not ready. Also, we just brought in some UFAs at OT. Was the big talk about Harris just a Denver propaganda trick to throw off other teams?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on Apr 28, 2008 5:41 PM MDT 0 recs
Great Post HT
I dunno what to think but I think Pears is a starter. I think it will be interesting to see who ends up where for sure
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 28, 2008 8:25 PM MDT 0 recs
I pull for Pears
mostly because he’s a Ram, and I thought he did an admirable job a couple years ago when Lepsis went down. But if someone beats him out, I won’t be terribly crushed; whatever makes the team stronger, I’m fine with.
~Uffdah
by Disco_Stu on
Apr 28, 2008 8:32 PM MDT
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Don't forget those Centers
Wiegmann was the KC Center, but played a lot of Guard as well. When he interviewed, he said he had no plans being a backup and would compete for a starting position at Center or Guard. If he has a good Camp, this could bump Hamilton, as I believe Nalen is a lock.
Don’t forget that K-Lich plays guard as well. As a Rookie, Guard may be the only position he will be getting any playing time on the Denver line.
"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"
Alex Karras
by Denver Diehard on Apr 29, 2008 12:07 AM MDT 0 recs
Good points
Hamilton will be hard to bump since he is one of the elites (like Nalen). With the injury risk to Nalen, and given Wiegmann’s age, and K-Lich as the only back-up, I really think Wiegmann gets stuck behind Nalen. That’s just what I think and I could be wrong.
K-lich can play guard, but right now guard is our deepest position on the OL (Hamilton, Kuper, Holland).
I don’t expect K-Lich to have any starting time in his first year.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 29, 2008 1:02 AM MDT
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Best Five
Given your assumption that Kuper will start at RG or RT, and that Holland and Pears will stay at their current positions either as starter or backup, the question is who will Kuper displace? The logical answer, I think, is Pears if, as I suspect, the Broncos start their five best linemen. It’s not even clear to me that Kuper would beat out Holland, though it’s not clear that he wouldn’t, either. Pears has done better than anyone expected but I don’t know how nuch better he can get. I think it’s likely Harris will back up Clady, as you have penciled in. What I’m wondering is, how many o-linemen are we going to keep after the final cutdown? We let Myers go but picked up Wiegman, Lichtensteiger, and Clady, and have Hamilton back. Even if we carry one more than last year that probably means Harris, Lichtensteiger, and Pears are competing for the final roster spot. That means Lichtensteiger is looking at an uphill battle to make the team. If we put him on the taxi squad we risk losing him like we did Eslinger. Given how high Shanahan appears to be on Harris, at this point it looks like Pears or Lichtensteiger is going to be the odd man out, possibly both. We have to start developing a longterm solution at C soon, so if K-Lic is at all impressive they’re going to be motivated to keep him. One thing that might change this dynamic is Hamilton not being able to return to form. In that case Kuper could easily end up at LG, with Harris backing up LT and RT, and Wiegman LG, C, and RG, with either K-Lic or Pears going to the taxi squad. It’s interesting how our o-line, which recently looked so thin, suddenly looks pretty deep. Shanahan has done a brilliant job of injury-proofing this year’s o-line. If K-Lic is impressive (for a rookie) do you think Shanahan might keep him over someone who’s currently ahead in development but not necessarily in longrange potential? Wiegman has boght us time, so we can always try again next year and possibly even the year after that, but at some point we’re going to have to commit to our longterm solution at center.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Apr 29, 2008 3:19 AM MDT 0 recs
Here's my in depth on the depth...
Here are my assumptions. Clady at LT, Hamilton at LG, and Nalen at OC are locks. Wiegmann is going to back-up Nalen, and K-Lich is going to be number three or on the practice squad. K-Lich is so lucky to be on the team that he can’t complain. At OC, Wiegmann is the veteran back-up we need, but I think K-Lich gets a chance to start in ‘09 with Wiegmann behind him.
I’m assuming Kuper starts at RG. By jumping the gun and naming Kuper as a starting OT, I think he got the nod over Holland for an OG spot. This means Holland backs up both Hamilton and Kuper. With Hamilton’s concussion risk, I think Holland has a reasonable chance of significant playing time this year.
At RT I see Pears continuing to develop (I don’t think he’s maxed out yet).
I see a lot of votes in the poll for Harris, but I believe Harris is in serious trouble.
1. At the start of the reloading season the coach named someone else (Kuper) the starter to replace Lepsis. (That means Harris is the odd man out).
2. Then we spent a number 12 pick on Clady (a further vote of no confidence in Harris).
3. We picked up a couple more OTs the day after the draft in UFAs.
4. Because of his back injury, he hasn’t played in one game.
I was out there ringing the bell for Harris for what I thought was positive comments about him throughout the year from the team. I was reading that he was smart, and picking up the system faster than normal. But part of good analysis is being able to back off of what we assume and looking at new evidence. All of the new evidence is very damning to Harris being a starter.
Still, I’m looking at 9 players on the OL, so if we went with the current crop there isn’t too much danger of anyone getting cut. There is still the potential for Harris to lose out in competition in camp to a UFA though.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 29, 2008 8:47 AM MDT
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Depth
You said:
I’m assuming Kuper starts at RG. By jumping the gun and naming Kuper as a starting OT, I think he got the nod over Holland for an OG spot. This means Holland backs up both Hamilton and Kuper. With Hamilton’s concussion risk, I think Holland has a reasonable chance of significant playing time this year.
Nice reasoning. Until Shanahan says otherwise I’m convinced. Also, I like your point-by-point reasoning for putting Harris on the bubble. The back injury has been worrisome for me. Back problems, once they start, tend to be chronic. I’m not totally persuaded on Pears, but in checking previous years’ rosters I suddenly realized he’s only entering his third year. Holy smokes! He’s played so much I guess I was unconsciously thinking of him as a fourth year player. So he was a rookie when he subbed for Lepsis on the left side?! Guess I’d forgotten that, so you might be right about him not having maxed out. Another Shanahan steal. Mason’s Morsels for September 2, 2006 lists nine o-linemen on the 53-man squad, stating that that’s the most the Broncos have had the last four years. Don’t know what the final cutdown number for last year was, but considering the injuries of the last two years and the uncertainty (especially regarding Hamilton) going into this year nine players sounds pretty likely. That makes room for everyone unless one of the UFAs surprises, which with Shanahan can never be ruled out. That strengthens my feeling that K-Lic will be given every chance to win a roster spot. Nice analysis. Thanks.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on
Apr 29, 2008 10:50 AM MDT
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Only One Certainty
The only certainty is that Nalen starts at Center if he is healthy, to be backed up by Wiegmann. Let’s call it very likely that Clady starts at LT from day one, as Shanny indicated. He has the ability to dramatically improve the offense right away, a la Joe Thomas in Cleveland, if he catches on quickly to the mental side of the game. I’ve heard he did badly on the Wonderlic, but to listen to the guy speak, you’d never think he was unintelligent, so him starting and succeeding from the jump-off seems reasonable to me.
What you have left is three positions to be filled by some combination of Ben Hamilton, Chris Kuper, Montrae Holland, Ryan Harris, and Erik Pears. I don’t consider Hamilton a sure thing, because of the concussion issue, and the fact that he hasn’t played football in more than a year. It seems pretty simple to me, without any linear programming, that you play the 3 best of this bunch, given Kuper’s versatility. You’re almost guaranteed to come out with 2 guards and a right tackle.
I think Pears is the worst player of the bunch, based on historical performance, and the odd man out. The best player historically is Hamilton, followed by Kuper, and then Holland. For now, I picture Hamilton at LG, Holland at RG, and Kuper at RT. If Harris plays well, bump Holland for Kuper potentially. In any case, the line is in good shape, personnel-wise.
As a side note, I expect Lichtensteiger to see no playing time on offense this season, and maybe a phantom injury puts him on IR, and Pears keeps his roster spot. How does a young OL group of Clady, Harris, Kuper, and Lichtensteiger look going forward, with a chance to grow together? I’ll take young players like that anyday.
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS
by TedBartlett905 on Apr 29, 2008 11:41 AM MDT 0 recs
Agreed
Plus it could mean the Broncos don’t have to go into future drafts with OL as an immediate need anymore, allowing the team to focus on other needs and possibilities.
by phantom818 on
Apr 29, 2008 12:00 PM MDT
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Styg did a pretty good analysis...
...of Pears awhile back. It was pointed out that Pears is only going to be in his third year, and spent a long time playing out of his position and holdign his own. He also continues to improve. I think he is a young player that continues to improve and hasn’t maxed out. Harris (on the other hand) hasn’t played a down of pro football, having spent his entire pro career (albeit 1 year) on IR. Given Mike’s comments, I think Harris is on the bubble to make the team this year.
Agreed that K-Lich doesn’t start this year. I think he replaces Nalen in ‘09.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 30, 2008 9:33 PM MDT
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Hey HT quick thought
Is there anything doing in a situational rotaion of our line. Some of our guys are better run blockers than pas sblockers and vice versa, do some guys come out on specific plays and such or what? My thought is Wigga whats it signed to be a starter so my thought is Clady-Hamilton-Nalen-Wigga-Pears with the rest of the group in situational backup. I think Harris backs up the T Kuper and the rookie back up the C/G rotation. Thoughts on this. I just dont see a starter signing to be a backup.
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 29, 2008 12:48 PM MDT 0 recs
No on rotations.
There is too much team work involved on the OL, and rotations would ruin that. Some OL position coaches will tell you that they would rather have five average players who play together all the time than five star players who haven’t played together before.
Wiegmann only gets the start if Nalen is gone. Nalen would be quietly asked to retire by the team if he were going to be in a back-up role.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 30, 2008 9:24 PM MDT
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Thanks that was my thought to
not as well thought out but I agree still
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on
Apr 30, 2008 10:05 PM MDT
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A point of disagreement
I would list Hamilton as the backup center if Nalen goes down, especially early in the season. He knows the system and the line calls better than anyone else so it seems natural that he would slide over to center (like he’s done before) and someone like Wiegmann, Kuper or Holland would move into the LG slot.
by MattR on Apr 30, 2008 1:55 PM MDT 0 recs
I disagree back at ya! : )
I believe Wiegmann was signed for one reason only: to back up Nalen if Nalen gets injured again. K-Lich won’t be ready to go his first year. Wiegmann is also near retirement himself, so he wasn’t brought in to only start for a year or two. Hamilton would be a disaster at center, though not because he can’t play at center. You don’t have a guy just off of IR backing up another guy off of IR at the same position. Hamilton would make the line calls from LG (in my opinion) if Nalen gets hurt.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by hoosierteacher on
Apr 30, 2008 9:28 PM MDT
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Ya know what's crazy?
We could conceivably have five different players start 2008 than who finished 2007. Kinda doubtful, but you could have Clady, Hamilton, Nalen, Wiegmann, Harris as the 2008 opening day starters with Pears, Holland and Kuper all on the bench.
by MattR on Apr 30, 2008 3:05 PM MDT 0 recs
















