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Al Davis Likes Shiny Things

The Pro-Football-Reference Blog  has a short post on Al Davis and his infatuation with 1st round picks. 

My favorite part of the article shows that of the two teams on which he had 22 former 1st-rounders, both were 4-12.  It's amazing to see how a team can stockpile so many 'talented' players, yet be so poor.  We can only hope the Darren McFadden pick continues the trend.

Enjoy the read!

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Sorry

I apologize for making this a fanpost instead of a fanshot, I now realize my transgression and will do my part to keep MHR organized in the future :)

by studbucket on May 10, 2008 7:38 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Generally.......

when Al picks up a former 1st rounder, its because he was a bust elsewhere, or is an aging All Pro looking for one more title run. This worked in 2002, and was working in 2003 before Gannon was injured. Well, its been down hill from that injury, for too many reasons to state here, but everyone can see the Raiders are on the way back up.

The simple fact is, every team in the NFL has had terrible stretches where they are at the bottom of the league. It is a testament to the Raiders organization and Al Davis that it took 4 decades. Now the Raiders are turning it around. What will you say when the Raiders win the division? A playoff game?

Nothing, cause the Raiders excellence will speak for itself, as it always has.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 11, 2008 3:41 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

I gotta admire...

your enthusiasm. Boy, talk about making lemonaide! You might have a bump in your slump this year, but from then on for several years the sky is dark over oakland.

Human character does evermore publish itself.

by firstfan on May 11, 2008 4:40 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well, thats hard to understand.......

We have two incredible young RBs and a returning 1000 yrd rusher, an incredibly talented young QB, Two young dominant corners, two young and dominant Safeties, two young and dominant LBs, and much much more. Really, your right! The future does look dark, because the Silver and Black cloud of dominance is about to return to the AFC West.

So as far as the sky being dark over Oakland, thats how we like it on Sundays!! Its the Black Hole buddy!! I can’t wait for Monday Night Football!! You??

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 1:46 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What will you say when the Raiders win the division? A playoff game?

I don’t know. We can hardly get in a word edgewise when oakland finishes in the basement.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 11, 2008 6:51 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Unbridled Optimism
everyone can see the Raiders are on the way back up

Haven’t they been doing that for several years now?

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 11, 2008 1:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well, if you mean in the off season......

then yes. I can admit that the Raiders made some mistakes that made longer the inevitable rebuilding process. The team that went to the SuperBowl in 2002, was comprised largely of veterans that came to the Raiders for one last hurrah and shot at a title. After the Super Bowl loss, many with a bad memory think the Raiders collapsed. However, 6 game into the 2003 season, the Raiders were 4-2 and on their way to victory in Baltimore when Gannon was injured on a hit by Derrick Brooks. It was a clean hit, as Gannon ducked his head, but that hit was the real tumbling point for the Raiders.

The 2003 team was on its way to the playoffs, again, but when you take the MVP of the league away from a team, a veteran team making one last push, the results really aren’t that surprising. From that point on, the Raiders were in rebuilding mode. The rebuilding phase was going to take a few years as it was, but there were several unforeseen problems, that would extend the process.

Callahan was a bust HC and Gannon was the real and only leader of that team. Turner is an O Coordinator not a head coach, and that will again become evident in SD soon. Randy Moss had one good game as a Raider then gave up and acted like a baby. Art Shell was a decent hire, but the people brought in on the offense doomed his tenure, and aggravated the Moss and Porter problems. So after the loss of the MVP, Rich Gannon, 2003 & 2004 were obvious rebuilding years regardless, and with the amount of veterans on the 2003 team probably 2005 too. 2006 was a year of high hopes with Art Shell coming back, but that was a failure for all the reasons mentioned above.

Last year the Raiders really turned it around. They were in all but three games in the 4th quarter, and ahead in nearly half of those. Kiff really changed the culture, and began the rebuilding process that was long overdue. With the influx of talent this season, Raider Nations excitement is extremely justified.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 1:35 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Why does it seem, from the outside...

...that Davis doesn’t really want to keep Kiflin around?

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on May 14, 2008 8:45 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

any #1 linemen?

the reasons for oakland’s success in ‘02 were 2 things. they had an excellent coach-gruden-and i said it back then this guy knew how to exploit weaknesses. the other, and bigger, reason, was the dominant play of their o-line . i remember blitzing the ** out of them, 7 guys, and we couldn’t get a hand on gannon. gannon played well, but he had ALL day. the bucs did not give him all day, did they? they fell like a house of cards when their best strength was nullified. to answer this question, i don’t beleive there were any #1 draft picks on that o-line, so, no, that strategy has never really brought them success, ever. but keep doing it and keep believing it, man

by davecheffy on May 11, 2008 10:01 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Actually,

our starting center went bipolar the night before the game and that really jacked the O-Line up in the Super Bowl. I could see the loss coming as soon as I found out the leader of the O-Line was in trouble right before the SB.

The reason the Raiders were successful was Gannon. He was the MVP of the league, and the Raiders version of Payton Manning. He ran the show and made that team click. The Raiders were 4-2 in 2003, and on their way back to the playoffs when Gannon was injured. Anytime you take away the MVP and the leader of a team away, any team would be in serious trouble. Basically the Gannon injury exposed Callahan, and if Gruden had been around, he wold have suffered too. You cant take Peyton Manning away from the Colts and still expect them to be winners and SB contenders. The same can be said of the Raiders and Rich Gannon.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 1:41 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The bottom of the league
The simple fact is, every team in the NFL has had terrible stretches where they are at the bottom of the league. It is a testament to the Raiders organization and Al Davis that it took 4 decades.

You know who has never had one of these stretches since joining the NFL? The Denver Broncos. For us, 7-9 is a terribly disappointing season. We’ve picked 4th in the draft twice, with one of those picks being Chris Hinton, who was obviously traded for John Elway. We’ve never seen a draft pick higher than 4th overall. So, 0ak, rationalize the last woeful 5 years however you want, but the likes of that has never been seen in Denver, and as long as Pat Bowlen continues to own the team, I doubt we ever will. You’ll find zero people here who are envious of Oakland fans, that much is certain.

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS

by TedBartlett905 on May 13, 2008 6:24 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

From 1960-1972.....

The Donkeys only one more than 5 game once. That one time was 1962 when they finished 7-7, and the Donkeys were still playing second fiddle to the Raiders until 1977. Sure you all have had a great run under Mike “fire all my personnel” Shanahan, but their was a time when the Donkeys were perennially at the bottom of the AFC West. So actually, the Donkeys have had a far longer stretch of horror in their history than the Raiders. The NFL is cyclical, and eventually every franchise turns it around (see Bucs, Bengals, Donkeys, Packers, etc, etc). The Raiders turnaround was inevitable, and my statement still holds very true.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 7:36 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

lol....typos

“the Donkeys only WON more than five games once.” and “THERE was a time”

No Sleep!! 6:35am! I just graduated from grad school on Sunday, and have been partying like a rock star. My sleep schedule is all jacked up.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 7:39 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

We could write about the ancient Byzantine Empire too..

..but it wouldn’t relate much to the last two or three decades.

Shanahan rarely has losing seasons. When he does, it is reasonable to expect that someone will get fired. Shanahan’s record since being in Denver has been stellar, in terms of SBs, playoff appearances, playoff wins, and records against AFC West division teams. In fact, it is clearly no less reasonable than an owner firing head coaches left and right for records ranging from 2-14 to several 4-12s with a 5-11 in the mix (I won’t mention Al Davis by name). : )

Ok, I will. Davis has a mixed record on “loyalty”. I think the raiders will earn a lot of respect from the rest of the league, and be able to do more than brag about winning in the distant past when they get rid of the Davis family. Here’s what I mean by a mixed bag on loyalty.

On the positive side he hired the first hispanic coach (Flores in ‘79), the first black coach (Shell in ‘89), and the first woman as president of an NFL team (Amy Trask). (Of course he also fired one of them, Shell, twice. Flores won 2 SBs as a coach for oakland. But after a 5-10 season he was “promoted” to a front office job, and let go a year later. Trask’s record as a team attorney, her actual role, has been atrocious. More on that in a moment).

On the other hand, in 1979 Davis took over the team by restructuring his partnership contract with co-managing partner Wayne Valley while Valley was out of the country attending the ‘72 Olympics. It was Valley who brought Davis to the raiders, and Valley who poured his own money into keeping the team afloat in its early years. This tragic incident doesn’t endear Davis to many co-owners or old time football fans.

While he was still a co-manager of the team, Davis became commissioner of the then AFL. He ended up trying to stop the merger of the AFL with the NFL (he liked the compensation that the raiders could get from the NFL), despite the fact that the AFL teams’ owners (members of the AFL) wanted the merger. The rest of the AFL went behind Davis’ back, since he wouldn’t carry out their directions, and completed the merger without him. He “chose” to leave his position shortly after and went back to oakland.

Davis also turned his back on oakland, taking the franchis to LA. While there he made a deal with the city of Irwindale, which paid Davis a ten million dollar deposit. Davis “changed his mind”, but kept the deposit.

In the early ‘80’s Davis wanted to move the team out of oakland, but the owners voted 20 to nothing (and five abstention votes). As I wrote earlier, they DID end up moving. But when he wanted to move back to oakland, he sued the same league that tried to prevent the move in the first place, by claiming that the league wasn’t interested in helping them finance another stadium complete with luxury boxes! (oakland lost the suit 9-3 in a jury trial. A city district court judge threw out the decision on the suspicion that one of the jurors didn’t like the raiders, and another might have broken a jurror conduct rule). Both a unanimous State appeals court and (later) the State Supreme Court overturned the district judge.

Davis’ loyalty was also called into question when he was the lone owner in the NFL to join with the USFL in attacking the NFL.

Davis also sued oakland’s taxpayers and the oakland Coliseum Authority over the Personal Seat License fiasco. Davis sued the two entities because he felt (with losing records) that the city or the Authority should guaruntee sold out games! The settlement left fans without their PSLs.

Last (and the most funny), Davis’ team lost the SB to TB in 2002. How did they handle the loss? By suing the Buccaneers for copyright infringment (they both use pirate logos)! They also sued the Panthers, claiming that the Panthers uniform and logo was too close to the silver and black of the raiders.(??) The raiders also lost this suit, because the legal wizards that worked for Al filed in a California Court. I’m not a lawyer, but a grad degree in political science does teach you that copyright laws (intellectual property) are the jurisdiction of federal courts, not state.

Where does this place the raiders today? A once great financial empire (and I mean that with respect, because Davis is the problem, not the raiders or the fans), ranked 29th in attendence since 2003, and (despite what used to ba a major international market for raiders gear) ranks 28th in total financial value of all 32 NFL teams (only $736 million). Forbes magazine tracks the NFL team finances each year.

I know we have our differences. But I honestly believe that when the raider fans somehow get rid of Davis, his distrust of coaches, his disregard for player character, his paranoid legal issues, and the mentality he fosters of “toughness” to the exclusion of “team work”, only then will the raiders not only start winning games again, selling more tickets and merchandise, but also be a feared and respected rival. Because of Davis, the team instead has a reputation for suing, making excuses, paranoia about the league and officials, and losing.

What’s good for the raiders is good for the AFC West, football, and even the Broncos (who would really prefer to have a rivalry with a team that is their equal). It’s a terrible analogy, but I hated the “Batman” movie that had Jack Nickelson as the Joker. You wait the whole movie for the climactic end, only to watch Batman beat the crap out of the joker without much suspense as to who is going to win. (The new Christian Bale reboots of Batman are much better).

I worry about SD because they really are a good team. They also have a jerk for a QB, so that maked the rivalry fun. I worry about the Chiefs, because (even though they aren’t winning) they play hard at Arrowhead. The Chiefs also worry me because they are building smart, drafting for key positions instead of bringing in big names. (Giving up big name Allen to get more draft help was a great move for the long term). But oakland seems (year after year) to get great, big, elite names; then they tell the other teams to “watch out”, and then nothing seems to happen. This year reminds me of the last few years in that regard.

I look forward to the return of real “R”aiders football. But with Al sinking the team, and forgoing long term sustainable improvement for the “win now” approach, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. When it does, Broncos fans and raiders fans will both have something to enjoy.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 13, 2008 3:43 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Those little picture boxes.

I was typing a bunch of question marks and exclamation marks to illustrate my confusion at the thought that the Panthers log resembles the raiders logo (in color or any other way). It must be an HTML issue to bunch the signs (alternating) with each other.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 13, 2008 3:46 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't know how this discussion became a recap of certain points in Al Davis' tenure.....

But I could list an equally long response on the positives of Al Davis legacy as well, but that would be a waste of time. He is a legend, the heart and soul of the greatest franchise in sports with the best fans, in my opinion. You will always feel different because you are a Donkey fan. We agree to disagree.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 10:40 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think it started...

...with you calling the Broncos’ coach

Mike "fire all my personnel" Shanahan

My point was to demonstrate that when it comes to loyalty, Al Davis is a more apt personification for “firing personnel” and even backstabbing superiors (the NFL), peers (his one time co-owner/manager), and subordinates (the sheer number of people he’s fired, including Shanahan himself after only 3 or 4 games).

It’s not a matter of being a Denver fan. There are only 3 NFL owners I have little respect for out of 31 (GB is, of course, owned by the fans in GB). While Davis certainly does have some good qualities (we could go into some of his charity work for example), I believe that some of his hateful behaviors have overshadowed these and harmed his reputation outside of oakland.

The “greatest” fans need to start selling out their home games and buying merchandice:

A once great financial empire (and I mean that with respect, because Davis is the problem, not the raiders or the fans), ranked 29th in attendence since 2003, and (despite what used to be a major international market for raiders gear) ranks 28th in total financial value of all 32 NFL teams (only $736 million). Forbes magazine tracks the NFL team finances each year.

This is not a knock on the fans themselves (who are passionate about their team), but a reflection on how the fan base seems to be shrinking. oakland fans never used to be “fair weather” fans. They bled silver and black if the team was winning or losing. Now (in my opinion because of lapses by Davis), the team doesn’t sell out games much anymore.

Dallas and oakland used to have a merchandice empire that spanned the globe, but somehow oakland has dropped back to the 5th lowest team in the NFL in terms of financial value. Again, I don’t blame the fans or even the team. The financial health of the raiders is the responsibility of the owner.

Since the inception of the 16 game season, Denver has the highest winning average of any team in the NFL. One still has to get season tickets in Denver by lottery. Conversly, oakland has had several stretches of basement years well below 8-8 in that time, and can’t sell tickets like they used to.

As I wrote in the last comment, I want oakland to be a good team again. It’s good for the AFC West to be competitive, so that the represenative AFC West team in the playoffs has had solid experience from the regular season. The rivaly is also more fun if the teams are playing on an equal level (despite another basement year, oakland managed to split the games with Denver this year, losing in a squeeker and winning the other game big – and that made this year’s games more fun than they’ve been for ages). My opinion (and this shouldn’t be construed as against fans, players, or the coaches) is that if Davis can move on to other pastures (and perhaps Carol), there might be a sustainable return to “excellence”, instead of spurts between basement deserts.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 1:06 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

As far a tix sales and sellout are concerned......

The Raider were not in charge of their ticketing for the longest time in Oakland. The marketing and selling of tickets was in shambles and not run properly. However, since the Raiders have been able to retake control of their ticketing operations, they have sold out all but 1 game. The reason the attendance figures are the way they are, is not a result of lack of sellouts, its because of a lack of seats. The Coliseum only seats 60,000 people, and is tied for the lowest in the NFL.

The Raiders and the Cowboys are still the merchandising champs of the NFL, as they are continuously in the top 3 in merchandising year in and year out. Unfortunately merchandising only makes up for about 5% of the total revenue pie for the owners, and it is split evenly due to revenue sharing under the CBA.

The Raiders financial value has much to do with the location of a dilapidated, old, multi use facility, and the Raiders were 5th lowest team according to forbes, and that was taken in January, prior to the addition of a lot of talent and financial value. My guess is they are no about 10-12th lowest. The reality is, as long as the Raiders play in a stadium that lacks capacity, and is in the middle of the Hagenburger District in Oakland (where 90% of the murders in Oakland happen within 2 miles of the stadium), the Raiders will lack in the financial polls. It an economic reality of Oakland, and one that all Raider fans are all too familiar with. (My car was broken into last season during the last game of the season) Unfortunately, as this nation slips further away from economic prosperity, the problems in Oakland and other inner cities are magnified like they are now.

Again, the Raiders have no problem selling Tix, even during the past few seasons they have been terrible on the field. Attendance statistics should be viewed in terms of percentages, not actual seats filled, so that the lower capacity teams like the Raiders are not unfairly pigeonholed. And finally, the economic realities of Oakland hurt the teams financial value, and serve to perpetuate that particular problem because there is no money for a new stadium in a better location.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 1:48 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

My bad......

I meant to say the Raiders were the 6th lowest rated franchise according to forbes, I wrote 5th accidentally.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 1:50 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I've noticed that you correct small errors...

like spelling, wording, etc. This isn’t the kind of site where people attack opinions based on someone’s composition skills. You don’t have to guard yourself at this site from that stuff by catching something before someone else does. Really.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 3:03 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Check some of those stats / statements (and stop letting Al make excuses)
...since the Raiders have been able to retake control of their ticketing operations, they have sold out all but 1 game.

The system was switched in 2005. In 2006 alone the team didn’t sell out 2 of their 8 home games. (Al always shifts the blame, in this case he blamed the Authority that sold the tickets for the team).

The reason the attendance figures are the way they are, is not a result of lack of sellouts, its because of a lack of seats. The Coliseum only seats 60,000 people, and is tied for the lowest in the NFL.

Shouldn’t that make it easier to sell out the tickets? If the stadium seats 1 billion people, it gets harder to fill every seat. If it only seat 60,000 or less, it becomes easier. (Al always shifts the blame; now it’s the stadium that he wants the NFL to build for him, after he moved cities without the NFL’s consent. Three courts find in the NFL’s favor)

Attendance statistics should be viewed in terms of percentages, not actual seats filled, so that the lower capacity teams like the Raiders are not unfairly pigeonholed.

Congratulations on your new MBA (I really mean that). But you need to have a word with your stats prof. Read what you wrote again carefully. I’m sure you didn’t really mean it, so I won’t attack it. (Even Al hasn’t raised this)

Again, the Raiders have no problem selling Tix

But you’ve been spending some time telling me why we shouldn’t hold their lack of ticket sales against them. (That’s another argument I don’t think Al is making. Ticket sales are dismal)

The reality is, as long as the Raiders play in a stadium that lacks capacity, and is in the middle of the Hagenburger District in Oakland (where 90% of the murders in Oakland happen within 2 miles of the stadium), the Raiders will lack in the financial polls

Well, they aren’t polls to begin with. The data is based not on polling (questionaires), but the financial releases required of each team. These numbers include merchandice and ticket sales. The lack of capacity would be an excuse if the team was selling out games and a tiny stadium kept them from getting more butts in the seats. The truth is, they don’t sell out many games.

The condition of the community is also an odd excuse (unless you want to claim that the high murder rate is aimed at people trying to get to the games. : ) If the team is truly the internationale cause celebre that many fans claim it is, folks should be pouring in to games from surrounding areas.

I went to a Colts/Packers game in INDY once. It was before INDY was any good. VERY small market Green Bay fans nearly filled the stadium, even without many fair weather Colts fans showing up. If a team is loved, people will come from all over.

Bottom line, when the raider’s organization stops blaming everyone else (now I can add the stadium and the community, even though the raiders have no problem selling Tix ) then maybe they can take an honest, painful look in the mirror and get some things fixed. Good teams shouldn’t be making excuses for poor finances and poor records. They should fix them. It works that way in the business world (you know about that) for everyone else. The one guy that hasn’t been fired (and never points the finger at himself) is Al. He’s the CEO (in a sense, not literaly), and he should answer to the stockholders (again, not literal stockholders, but the fans).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 3:52 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I have looked and looked and looked,

but I cannot find the article source that gave me the attendance info. Where are you seeing those figures, cause I am positive that the Raiders have sold out all but one game since 2005. (concidering their record, two would be more than acceptable however.)

The lack of seats are proportional to the small market, one of the smallest in the NFL. and again, the Raiders have had no problem filling it since they took over. (even if it was two game as opposed to one. With the Raiders record its a testament to the fans)

I do mean what I say about the looking at percentages rather than total seats filled. I understand that the total seats filled is an important statistic, but for small market teams with lower capacity stadiums like the Raiders, the actual percentage of capacity filled is a more relevant statistic to see how they are doing sales wise. Even if the Raiders had sold out every one of their games since 2005, they would still be at or near the bottom of the league. You can only sell as many seats as a stadium will hold.

Again, everything has to be looked at from an Oakland perspective. The Raiders do an excellent job selling out their stadium in an economically downtrodden city, with a dilapidated facility. Again, the problem only exacerbates itself, because there is no money in poor Oakland for a new stadium. We are in between a rock and a hard place in Oakland, and it is my belief that the Raiders are doing an incredible job.

Just take my experience for example. The same sales associate has called me, created a personal relationship with me and sold me tickets every year since 2005. Prior to that, no way. The operation is well run, and from my personal experience, leaps and bounds above where it was when the Raiders weren’t running things.

While I should have used the term ranked, rather than poll, the argument still holds true regarding Forbes. I know its based on actual financial data, so my bad on using the term poll. I did not mean it like that. I understand that there info is legit. But the situation will never change for the Raiders as long as they play in the current facility, located in the worst part of Oakland.

Again, the Raiders will continue to rank at or near the top of the league in merchandising (probably lead this year with the talent influx, Raider Nation loves to support their team through their gear, and will need a lot of new gear to represent the new players like Gibril, Javon, Hall, DMC, and J Money ), and will certainly sell out all their games this season as a result of all the new players (DMC especially), but will remain in the bottom third of Forbes ranks again next year, because of where they play and the realities of Oakland economics.

I agree that, “good teams shouldn’t be making excuses for poor finances and poor records.” And we aren’t. I am just trying to explain the economic realities of Oakland to you. Its hard to understand, i know, but you have to live it to truly understand it. I’m not knocking you, but Oakland is one of a kind, and it can be really difficult to get anything done, and I mean ANYTHING. You remember Ebonics? Yea that was my city, and is an example of its stupidity that extends to every aspect of the city. Oakland is in a state of paralysis. No money, not enough police (state police come in to try and help, but it does no good), a horrible local and county government, and too much violence.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 6:49 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

First,

Thanks for the for the well thought out response. We could go in circles on all of this, but I think you’ve done a great a job as anyone can defending the raiders financial situation. Your MBA is well deserved.

(You don’t mind if I drop the title a few times do you? I foolishly garnered a master of arts in poli sci, and one doesn’t get a fancy title like “He’s a doctor” or “He’s a lawyer” or even “He’s an MBA”. Folks just look at a grad degree in poli sci and shake their heads. If I was still young, and had worked so hard on a degree that conferrs a title [even if it’s an informal one] I’d want folks dropping it left and right!)

Contra Costa Times (12-15-2006), in an article called “Gabriel’s release, return mystery” mentions the sellout number as 6 of 8. It’s a mainstream media source, so I won’t be offended if the piece is wrong.

I shouldn’t have mentioned the “poll” term. Remembering that I’m dealing with a new MBA : ) I should have assumed that the error was a simple oversight.

As a teacher (and even as a poli sci student) I learned about the Ebonics movement. It never became too serious in any of the places I ever lived, but what a horrible way to teach children and set them up for failure. We’re 100% together on that one. Has the movement died out in oak?

The environment there sounds depressing, and even frightening. Perhaps your allegiance to the raiders is a twist on the “stockholm syndrome”. Take your new degree and flee for greener pastures! Move past the violence and the poverty and find a nice (small market) NFL city to move to, and turn from the darkside. I know there’s still some good left in you, Vader…

Denver is waiting with open arms. Come into the fold. It’s ok, we’ll keep waiting until you’re ready. The first step is acknowledging that you have a problem, and that you are powerless over it. The group’s here for you.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 7:30 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I appreciate the MBA props.....

as it has barely hit me. I just graduated a couple days ago, so its weird, but I fill very fulfilled. Nevertheless I have to find a job and move out of La La Land (LA) back to The Bay, and ‘real life’, (you know, taxes and trying to find a job in a recession) is a bit scary at this point. Oh well. I am a christian man, and I believe good things come to good people, and I just need to work hard and opportunities will present themselves (I hope!!)

Doug Gabriel!! Really? Wow! I can see I was mistaken on the sellout figure, but I still think The Nation deserves credit for coming out as much as they have in these hard times, and the Raiders organization itself for finally taking control of a totally mismanaged aspect of the operational side. I feel confident that the Raiders will be ok as far as sell out are concerned, especially after the players added to the team. Heck, I think the Raiders could once again be terrible, and The Nation will still come out in force due to the influx of talent and all the rookies. (I throw J Money and Bush into that category, cause they are essentially rooks)

Yes, the Ebonics movement is long dead (thank God!), and Oakland is a very depressing place, especially recently. My mother is a registered nurse and nurse manager at Highland Emergency in East Oakland, and I have a unique perspective on the violence and economics of Oakland as a result. Her ER sees much of the violent beatings, stabbings, and shootings that occur in Oakland, all while being understaffed and underfunded as a public hospital. By law, nurse managers are only supposed to have 25 subordinate nurses on any one line, but my mother has been in charge of upwards of 125 at any one time. Oakland will pay nurse salaries (though they are still in short supply) but not the elevated salaries of too many nurse managers, thus my mom and really the whole system, patients especially (and thats who really matters), suffer as a result. Really Highland is a microcosm of the problems throughout Oakland, Police, schools, and public works all included. Its a terrible time to be poor in Oakland thats for sure. But whats new, right?

I love my city, as there is a lot of good there too. You just have to look real hard, especially in these hard times. Oakland is an industrial port city, but unfortunately, just like the rest of blue collar America, jobs are leaving, and the ones that are left are few and far between. There are a lot of people in trouble in this country right now, and Oakland is just another really hard hit part of that reality.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 8:48 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Read what I said

0ak, this is a non-trash talking site, so be aware that that isn’t what I am doing here. We’re proud of how civilized we are here on MHR. In my post this morning I said,

You know who has never had one of these stretches since joining the NFL? The Denver Broncos

I didn’t say “since joining the NFL” by accident. The old AFL teams joined the NFL in 1970, some 38 years ago. I’m 30 years old, so 38 years is a long time to me, clearly a useful sample size if you will. From 1970 thru 1972, the Broncos’ records were 5-8-1, 4-9-1, and 5-9. Not good records, definitely, but not the bottom of the league. Beginning in 1973, they went 7-5-2, 7-6-1, 6-8, 9-5, and then 12-2 in 1977, which is the year you pointed to. (There were a lot more ties back then.)

I like the year 1978, because the league adopted a 16 game schedule that year. The Broncos have averaged more wins than anybody over that period of time, and have also been the most consistent team over that time, challenged only by the Cardinals who are consistent as losers. Both of these assertions are demonstrable using accepted statistical methods.

What I said was, the Broncos have never had a run of being at the bottom of the league. The bottom of the league to me is being the worst franchise in it, which has clearly been the Raiders over the last 5 years. They have 19 wins in that period, or 1 less than the Patriots had last year. I’d argue that the Raiders are the worst franchise in all of professional sports during that time, and it would be hard to argue against that.

Your point about the league being cyclical and turnarounds eventually coming is somewhat valid, but you should realize that turnarounds don’t naturally come into being on their own. You mentioned the Bucs, but their turnaround was led by hiring Rich McKay and Tony Dungy. When the owner is the problem, and all he likes around him are sycophants who agree with his outdated thinking, and when he finally hires a good coach like Lane Kiffin (who has the gall to disagree with him,) he freezes that coach out, there’s no real reason to think a turnaround is coming. Things are not the way we wish they were, no matter how much effort we put into wishing. The most intelligent comparison is to the Arizona Cardinals and LA Clippers, who are continually handcuffed by inept ownership, and seem to perpetually miss the “cycle” of which you speak.

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS

by TedBartlett905 on May 13, 2008 9:31 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Aaaaah

OakFoSho wasn’t the only one who slipped up on the since joining the NFL distinction, and I’m especially embarrassed because, like you, I choose my words carefully and readers sometimes overlook the subtle distinctions I make. Good argument. Yes, the cycle applies to everyone, but you also have to take into account how well-run a franchise is. For some teams the high point of the cycle is when they reach or almost reach mediocrity (i.e. .500), after which they slip back towards pathetic. For the Broncos the bottom might turn out to have been 9-7 and 7-9, in which case we’ll have bottomed out rather than peaked at mediocrity. The Cardinals and Clippers haven’t missed the cycle. It’s just that their peaks, because of poor ownership, have been relatively low. And as long as Al Davis reigns supreme and continues to drag down a once-proud franchise, the same might be true of oakland. But year after year, since joining the NFL, Denver has been one of the most consistently successful franchises in the league.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 13, 2008 1:28 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well........

it would be nice if we could erase parts of our past and for get them like they never occurred, but thats just not possible. That extends beyond football, but sometimes the parts of us that we most want to forget teach us the most about who we are. For the Raiders, this past five seasons has only served to highlight the glorious past that will forever be a part of Raider mystique. The Raiders are the Yankees of the NFL, you love um or you hate um, and this last five seasons have given the haters all the excuses in the world for people to pile on the Raiders and dismiss their legacy. Hell BSPN is so anti Raider that they have attempted to take the term ‘Raider Nation’ and apply it to the Red Sox to attempt to further dismiss the Raiders importance. Well, it hasn’t worked, and my argument still stands. It is a testament to the Raiders, and Al Davis that it took more than 4 decades for the Raiders to fall from glory into a slump. A slump that all franchises have had, some worse than others, in their history, and it is was only a matter of time until The Nation turned it around.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 10:50 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It takes a lot to stick behind your team regardless of situations

So I applaud you for that. I also applaud you for your optimism for your team. I remember me personally last year I was so pumped because we snagged Graham from New England and Henry from Tennessee and Ramsey as a solid back up, I didn’t think things could go wrong. Then Injuries bad defense etc happened and I didn’t know how to feel, we had spent so much money in the off season I was shocked we were in the situation we were in. Then I realized, it doesn’t matter how many big names you bring in if they don’t play for the team. Honestly I was a bit shocked you guys picked up walker this year after his disappointment that you guys had front row seats to for 2 years. However I will say what a lot of people have said both about walker and ocho cinco, you will never win win it all with a guy on your team who is out for him and him only. you guys have a developing QB and a spanking new RB threat. With such a tandem a receiver should be happy to be part of the show. Walker will only be happy when he is without a doubt the number one weapon of offense. He doesn’t work well on running teams. He wants to be the one thing DC’s plan against and the primary target of the QB. Screen passes to the RB/ bootleg plays/ slot passes and running plays do not work for javon. Also javon will tell you if javon is unhappy because javon is the number one player on the team and javon needs a chance to catch 100 balls or javon needs to score 10 TD’s or javon is a beast after the catch too or whatever else javon says (I used javon enough I hope you get my point lol) anyway, heres a toast to hoping the raider-Bronco rivalry returns to the top of MNF and SNF considerations instead of the 1:00 game time

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 13, 2008 11:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

No.

I couldn’t disagree more with this statement:

The Raiders are the Yankees of the NFL

People (like me) hate the Yankees because they are always in line to win a world series, virtualy every year. Without the safeguards of true salary caps and true free agency, a team like the Yankees can buy any player off of another team that starts to show promise. They are so dominant that the game holds little interest for some people.

The closest anology would have been – The Patriots are the Yankees of the NFL. You either love or hate the Patriots. They have been steamrolling teams for a few years now with a current dynasty that started with the victory over the Rams in the 2001 SB. They were caught cheating by the NFL, and more tapes have just been turned over. They also run up scores (going for it on fourth with a 30 pt lead late in the game). They are a great team that people love or hate.

No one talks about the raiders anymore. oakland doesn’t fit the model at all. No one has been worried about playing oakland for years. oakland doesn’t get brought up much when discussing football or discussing who’s going to be a threat. The yankees have been dominant since the start of baseball. While oakland has a few years here and there (like every team), they haven’t been a consistent threat for decades.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 1:26 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Oh come on now.......

Haven’t been a constant threat for decades? That not even worthy of a response. You see this is the kind of statement I was talking about earlier. People the dislike the Raiders use the last five seasons in an attempt to overshadow the awesome legacy of the Raiders. That dog just won’t hunt. Also, the Pats might be the current Yankees of the NFL because they have been dominant recently, but that could be said of many teams at one time in the NFL. The Cowboys, the Pack, the Steelers, the 49ers, and the Raiders. The Raiders and the Steelers are the only teams to play in a SB in 4 different decades. There is something to be said for longevity. The Raiders are hit with the hatred of everyone (much like the Yankees) because of that longevity, and because the organization has embraced the laid back, do it your own way, rebel style, since the 60’s.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 1:58 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm only speaking for myself and the fans I know.

oakland hasn’t been consistently threatening for decades, and the fans I know haven’t discussed the raiders in ages.

In this decade they went to a SB and got blown out. That doesn’t matter though. During the season they were a terror, and most people thought the raiders would win it all. But outside of that, no fear.

In the previous two decades we had Elway. Again, the raiders just didn’t scare us much. We were busy going to multiple superbowls (even if we only won two of them). In that stretch I believe Al was still firing coaches a lot.

The raiders were a subject at the dinner table and at friends houses in the early eighties, but since that time fans I know have been concerned about the mystique of playing at ArrowHead, or getting past the Colts, the Niners, the Packers, the Cowboys, or the Steelers. The raiders manage a good year here and there, but that’s it.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 3:00 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I will ask you one question........

Which team do you love to hate the most? Which team do you love to beat the most? If your answer is not the Raiders, then there is a problem there. My bet is if you asked that question to every fan in every city, in the end, the Raiders would lead the way. Sure thats pure speculation, but based on the huge amount of raider haters and Al Davis haters around the league, I’d say its accurate. People love to hate the Raiders, and there is no better example than BSPN and NFL Network.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 6:55 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

ROFL!! OK OK Two questions!! LMAO!

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 6:55 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Love to hate, love to beat...

The raiders. No doubt about it.

On the other hand, I still don’t like the analogy. The Yankees have a lot of “anti-fans”, true. But the other thing the team is know for is a record of championships that no other team even approaches.

If you ask people what the Yankees are known for, you might get NYC (which isn’t run down in the way it was pre Guilianni, and it even garnered sympathy post 9/11). You might also so many names from baseball history that I can’t even begin to count them. You might get any of a couple dozen movies (many in black and white) or the current series running on cable about Reggie Jackson. You might get complaints about the rich ownership buying out the star players of other teams.

While a lot of people hate the Yankees, they are arguably the baseball team in America.

If you ask people about the raiders (and we’re not talking about asking raider fans), I always hear about the Tatum-Stingley incident, the attack on Joe Namath in the ‘67 game, Atkinson “concussing” Lynn Swann in two different games, the high level of penalties, the danger to visiting fans, the embrace of costumes that foster the “evil” image, and Davis’s propensity for suing anything that moves.

While I very much dislike the Cowboys too (calling themselves “America’s team”), I’d have to admit that they would probably be selected to represent the NFL more than any other team (if records weren’t a factor) simply because they are the highest profile team. If records were a factor one still wouldn’t look at oakland.

Hatred against a team shouldn’t really be something to take pride in. If the team was so dominant that other teams hated the team for that, it would make sense to me. But I think the reputation against oakland is based on a perception of dirty play, and the desire by oakland to foster the “evil” image (I think it’s kind of cool though that oakland plays the Vader – Imperial Empire music, or did, when the team takes the field).

Incidently (not living in Colorado) when people find out I’m a Broncos fan the images they have are Elway, alttitude, “the drive”, “the fumble”, and 4th quarter comebacks.

To me, the first thing I think when comparing the Yankees and the raiders (even as someone who dislikes both teams) is that the comparison is odd. One is a storied franchise and the face of baseball, while the other is a shell of it’s former self and insignificant to most fans today.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 14, 2008 8:02 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

If the analogy is off, I can accept that.......

so long as your answer to those two questions is the Raiders. That is the point I was trying to make in a round about way, and I can see your argument regarding the Yankee analogy.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 9:02 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You've been a good sport Oak

so I’ll give credit where credit is due. One of my best buds at work is a diehard raiders fan, and I’ve admitted to him a grudging admiration for the way the old raiders won with their bad-boy antics, for instance the infamous fumblerooski. But my favorite example of winning through evilness comes from a game against the Chiefs. I don’t even know what year it was. What I remember is that the Chiefs were winning, it was third down, and they needed only a first down to put the game away. And they got it, as Len Dawson ran for ten or fifteen yards on a quarterback draw. But wait! Big Ben Davidson dives in head first, arms at his side, while Dawson is already on the ground. Flag. Spearing. But wait! The K.C. tight end, I forget his name, is so enraged that he takes a punch at Davidson. Flag. Offsetting penalties. Replay the down. This time K.C doesn’t get the first down, the raiders get the ball back, the (damned) raiders go on to win the game. That is my alltime favorite example of winning by badness. Those raider teams always managed to find a way to get it done, whether by grabbing a guy by the cajones, fumbling the ball forward into the end zone, or spearing the QB. I can see why you’d feel nostalgia for those long ago days of yore.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 14, 2008 12:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

OFS

On the analogy – fair enough. That’s a fair point, and I’ll buy it.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 15, 2008 9:24 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Raiders hate

IS Broncos love. They are two sides of the same coin, they cannot be separated, nor can they both be present (up if you will) at the same time.

For any (broncos) fan that says the raiders are not their most hated team, they simply haven’t introspected well enough.

As far as BSPN (I like that and I think it could stick) and most MSM, if you aren’t the Pats or an overachieving underdog, they don’t have any interest. They don’t cover denver any better than oakland.

But I thought NFLN had pretty decent coverage of oakland. In fact, I can’t think of any team they are biased against, and rightly so. And didn’t Woodson play for the raiders? I know that TD doesn’t tolerate guest speakers saying irrational things about the Broncos, and I’m sure that Rod Woodson wouldn’t harbor that kind of attitude towards any of the teams he played for either.

And as far as screen time goes, that goes to the winners, and to the headlines.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on May 14, 2008 8:04 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yea BSPN blows.....

and most Raider fans feel the way they do because of the excess of former Donkeys in high profile commentator possitions. Mike Schlereth and Tom Jackson never fail to show their bias against the Raiders, especially Schlereth. While I would agree that the Donkeys and the Raiders get the same amount of coverage (or lack thereof), the Raiders coverage is negative heavy, and the bias is troubling for a so called Sports News Network. I thought delivering the News was supposed to be neutral, but BSPN is certainly not neutral when it comes to the Raiders.

Maybe I was too harsh on the NFL network, and yes Woodson played for the Raiders early in the millineum and was part of the Superbowl run in 2002.

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 14, 2008 9:00 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I know that these questions aren't quite directed at me but....

I have 2 teams that I loved seeing Denver beat. Of course the faders are one and the Missouri Indians are the other. I grew up in Kansas and being surrounded by fair weather chef fans (especially during the Marty era), was not always fun. It always felt good to see them win over those teams.

At this point however (with Phyllis and his merry men’s antics the past couple of years) I would love to see Denver beat all the AFC West teams.

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on May 14, 2008 9:23 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs