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MHR University - The Nickel Formations

I had planned on doing a youth coaching article, but there has been some interest expressed on the site and in my e-mail about the 3-3-5. Let's expand on that a little, and talk about nickel formations (including the 3-3-5) in several contexts (history, reasoning, personnel, etc).

As a Broncos centric site, most of the readers should get some use out of this article, since Denver uses both the 3-3-5 (sometimes mistakenly called a 33 stack), and the strong nickel. Denver has nice depth at the DB positions to be flexible with the nickel.

You there, in the back row! Put down that Madden cheat sheet! That isn't "Cliff's Notes" you know! We're talking the real thing here. C'mon.

Ok. Click on the read more link and let's have a good time!

Star-divide

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Not on my Turf; Not on My Watch".

It's a great night for football. It's cool out, the humidity is low, the home crowd is doing its job, and most importantly, you haven't given up the dreaded big play. The head coach loves you, because as a defensive coordinator you've been helping the men on the field to keep the ball in the hands of the offense.

The other team is struggling, and now they are third and short. Another third and out maybe? They've got a bruising, power RB who hasn't had much luck tonight, but this is short yardage. It's what he's built for. You're ok though. Your 4-3 is locked, cocked and ready to rock with the best defensive line in the conference. No RB breaks your line. Not on your turf. Not on your watch. The play clock keeps ticking down, the offense breaks their huddle, and then...

Something goes wrong! The opposing team has a scripted play coming in from the sideline. Your arch rival (the other team's offensive coordinator) flashes you an evil grin. The home crowd is focused on the field, and doesn't see the drama that unfolds on your sideline like a Biblical dark storm filled with doom and dread. The opposing fullback is coming off of the field like a bat out of hell (for a big guy), and the speed demon slot receiver that is used for obvious passing downs is taking his place on the field.

The head coach sees the danger right away. Is this a pass play coming, or a run? Can we defend both? The situation calls for a nickle formation, but with only two and a half yards to go there is little chance the nickle can stop the opposing RB nicknamed The Juggernaut. The HC shoots you a worried look.

The assistant at your side has just signaled in a run defense play out of a run defense formation. He doesn't know whether to switch in an extra corner or to keep the play. But you've brought him up right, knowing he'll be the defensive coordinator some day. He does what he's been trained to do. He buys you time.

Just like a Navy Carrier Commander getting ready to send fighter planes to the rescue, your assistant yells out "Ready Nickel Danger!", alerting the team to send every nickel package player to the coach's side at once. The team picks up the cry, and the result is that 6 young men race to the sideline next to you, ready for the command, "do or die" written on their faces. The clock is still ticking, and the opposing fat, slob of a FB is still racing off the field. Only now does the crowd realize that something is going on. Something terrible. Unfortunately, they get louder. They think the noise will hurt the snap count. In this case, the coaches can barely be heard on the sideline, and the defense on the field can't hear each other for the emergency adjustment. Sometimes the knife cuts both ways.

The defense that is on the field is good. One of the best. But they're too smart. They see the offensive substitution, they hear the assistant to the coordinator calling a "danger", and the middle linebacker panics. He's a smart kid, and he does his best to make some adjustments to throw the other team as he's been trained to do. You trust this kid. But the adjustments are not going to be the ones you would have wanted.

"Guys!", the kid yells "Shift strong; slant left! Shift strong; slant left!". Expletives fly up from the rest of the coaches. Everything is going to Hell. But you are the calm in the storm, the angel at the gate, the last soldier in the last ditch. You will adjust. "Hang in there Billy", you whisper. "Help's coming".

Only five seconds have gone by since the offense broke their huddle. Time has slowed to a crawl. You scan the situation. The head coach is screaming, the kids are yelling, the crowd has no clue how bad things have gotten, but they just know to yell louder.

You have about two seconds to make a decision and pull off a substitution, change or tweak the existing defense, or blow a time out. The last option buys the offense time, the one thing they really want. Another second clicks off...

Formations, sets, plays, adjustments, player match-ups, opposing team tendancies, stats, down and distance, and traps within traps within traps...

Time stops. Nothing is moving. There is no crowd, no team, no game. Only you. You and your mind. You and the week of long hours and little sleep preparing for the evil that is congratulating himself on the opposite side of the field. There is only you...

Your men...

Your playcall.

Time starts picking up, the noise starts to filter back into your head, and you remember last Wednesday night with the film, the books, the rest of the staff. You prepared for this moment.

You pull the assistant's head towards your ear. No one else will ever know what you said. But they'll see the result. They'll see the assistant straighten up, fire in his eyes, realization dawning on him. They'll see the suddenly calm hand signals being sent in, relaying your instructions. They'll see two boys, two young men sprint onto the field and two sprint off. They'll see the result in the next day's newspaper. The only thing they won't see, the one thing they'll miss...

The defense goes strong nickel, the offense goes singleback 3WR set...

The only thing that the crowd and the players and the press and...

The ball snaps. The evil offensive coordinator makes the best move he's ever made. Not a run up the gut, and not a pass down the field...

The only thing missed by everyone in the stadium except for you and your evil opposite...

It's a screen to the TE! The lateral is complete, the TE turns to head upfield. The way to the first down marker is clear, and so is the way to the endzone...

Nobody sees you and coach Evil make eye contact. He's grinning ear to ear. You've blown it! You never even look at the field or the play. You don't have to. You mouth the words across the field, knowing he can read your lips...

Out of nowhere, somehow, someway, the strong safety appears out of nowhere....

"Not on my turf;....

The collision can be heard over the crowd noise, the TE goes down a full yard short of the down marker. He's frightenly slow getting back up.

...Not on my watch, you son of a..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Congratulations. You've just lived through one play as a defensive coordinator. There will be many more throughout the game. Don't take the job if you've got a weak heart.

In a moment, we'll scratch the surface of the story you just read by learning about the strong nickel. We'll learn what a 3-3-5 is, and very briefly touch on a couple of bizzare nickel variants (multiple SAFs).

What is a nickel formation, and why is it used?

The nickel is not as old as you might think. It was first introduced to the pros by the Dolphins in the 70's. Before that it was rarely used at the college level as a gimmick formation. The nickelback either blitzed or zoned, but wasn't really there to provide man coverage. After all, who was going to throw the ball that much back then?

A nickel formation is any defensive formation that features 5 defensive backs. A nickel is five cents, hence 5 DBs. It is a formation that brings in an extra DB (almost always a CB) and takes out another position.

If you need more speed on the field, and the other team is likely to pass (perhaps they brought in an additional receiver, a "slot") you might call in the nickel. The above illustration is a standard (or base) nickel formation. Note that it isn't so skewed towards the passing game that you can't run some great, balanced schemes. Zone, man, and blitzing combinations are all there, as well as run contain and QB contain possibilities.

Also note this trend developing at the NFL level: a few teams are almost running the nickel as their primary defense, instead of the 4-3 or 3-4 (or the rare 46). Passing schemes are much more effective these days, and the fairly recent emphasis on enforcing the rule about how far a defender can contact an eligible receiver down the field has made the job of defenses harder. This may explain the trend. I'm thinking that the trend will be short lived though. The new rule about allowing defenders to push receivers out of bounds in the air (YES!) may also help to reverse the need for more nickels.

I've never been a heavy blitzer, but I liked to work a few blitzes out of nickels packages. I often had my DTs and DEs on either side lined up pretty wide (leaving a hole in the middle of my formation for the offense). It helped my DEs a little to face fewer obstacles during the pass rush, and I could either send a LB up the gut, or threaten to have my nickelback race in after RT or TE committed to my left DE. It took away the sweep runs and hindered the screens, and I felt that if 2 LBs and 2 SAFs couldn't stop a RB in the center of the field (my wide DTs should have at least peeled off 2 run blockers, and the other one was replaced by the offense's slot receiver), well then we didn't deserve to win anyway.

The title says there's more than one nickel. What's up with that?

Evil never sleeps. It's always hunting the endzone, and we're the guardians that stand in the gap. In short, one kind of nickel isn't enough.

In the story above, the opposing team put us into a bad situation. Sure, bringing in a third receiver signals a pass, but what if the play is near the 1st down marker? What if the play could go either way and perhaps be a run?

We call in the strong nickel.

The SS comes up closer to the line (how close depends on the playcall itsself). The FS centers to adjust for the displaced SS. The defense can cover the TE with either the SS or the nearest LB if they want to. They can show an almost 4-3 look at the offense if the offense wants to run the ball. If the offense passes, the WRs are covered, as is the SAF. It's a good pass protection formation if you suspect the bad guys might just run the ball. Often, the DL (or even just the left DE) shifts over the TE to bump him at the line in case he (the TE) is going to take a route for a pass play. Remember, right and left is from the defense's view when talking about the defense. There are several variants of the strong nickel, but the emphasis is on using the line, the SS, or a combination of the two to exert pressure on the side where most runs go, and (it is hoped) to pressure the TE.

Quick quiz! Why would the Broncos have been keen on this defense for so long? If your answer was because of the elite TEs in the AFC West, buy yourself a cold drink. By forcing the TE to stay in and protect the QB, you take the KC-Gonzales / SD Gates variables out of the equation. The AFC West also features good RBs (or has) from all four teams, and the strong nickel is more run-resistant that all of the other nickel packages.

In our story, you called in a strong nickel. You pulled the SS that was playing (he was a deep cover kind of guy), and you pulled one of the LBs. You sent in a run stopping TE, and your nickelback (#3) CB. You also did a half dozen other things, including changing assignments, disguising coverages, and undoing the "scissor" we discussed last week.

If the play is almost certainly pass, and you want to zone the midfield with speedy, coverage LBs (the Denver type), you can call in the 3-3-5.

You know, I'm really not a fan of the 3-4. But this "3-4" kind of looking nickel is one of my favorites. It will give up short yardage if the other team decides to run, but you can hide anything in this defense. You can man the CBs on each WR to stop the pass, and keep the SAFs back as insurance. Then, you still have three players to use in man, zone, or blitz. A DE/OLB tweener can shift the formation between a regular nickel and a 3-3-5 so quick with just two to three steps, that the adjustments made by the QB (as spelled out in a terrific article by TedBartlett905) have just been tossed out of the window.

There are two more nickels, but I don't want to spend much time on them. I love one of the two ideas in theory, but have never been able to muster much respect for the product in practice. Also, here's something you can have fun with at your next football party:

What defines a nickel? Do you remember? The correct answer is 5 DBs. But MOST folks focus on the fact that there are 3 cornerbacks on the field. Even some of the media commentators that we put up with will see the following formations and not realize they are seeing a nickel (because there are only 2 CBs on the field). So at your next party, while watching the game with your buddies, watch for the following formations. Ask your buddies if they think the formation is a nickel. Odds are that they say no. Don't correct them. Just pat yourself on the back for knowing something that you perhaps didn't know before you read this edition of MHR University.

Let's say you take out a DT and add an extra SAF. Let's say you line up three DLs, then line up the 3 LBs a few yards behind them, and a few yards further back (15 to 20 yards behind scrimmage), line up the three SAFs. We would call this a "33 stack". Sometimes you will hear a media type call the 3-3-5 a "33 stack". It drives me up the wall. (Although I remember MANY years ago hearing a play by play commentator get corrected by his color commentary guy). Sometimes the formation is also called a "tight cover three" (tight, because the DLs, LBs, and SAFs are bunched together, but at different levels of the field). This is one example of a cover three formation. (Remember from one of our old discussions, a cover three is a formation, not a system. A cover two is a system, not a formation).

Another triple SAF formation which belongs to the cover three family and is a nickel formation (though hard to recognize) is the "Umbrella". (Or, as singer Brianna calls it, her "umbrella-ella-ella-ella-ella"). I like this formation a lot, at least when I draw it up on the board and work with it. At the HS level I couldn't realisticly run it. But I once had high hopes for it at a much higher level. I'll get to that in a second.

Picture 3 DLs. A few steps behind the DT is the MLB. Just to the outside and a couple of steps in back of the DEs are the OLBs. Much further back you have 3 SAFs who are spread far apart. You can draw a straight line from the DT back to one of the safeties, and a diagonal line that goes back and to the side of the field going though each DE, his nearest OLB, and the outer SAF. This is the "Umbrella", sometimes called (also correctly) a 3-5-3. In this formation (and the 33 stack) we call the weakside SAF the "weak safety", and the middle safety is called the "free safety". This formation is heavily zone based.

Did someone in the back row say "middle safety"? No, That's not correct. It's still "free safety". No, I don't know why the MLB isn't called the "free linbacker". Probably because his assignments don't leave him free like a free safety generaly is. Back to what I was saying...

Neither this umbrella formation, nor the 33 stack should ever be called "3 deep". They both fall in the "cover three family" of formations, but using the term 3 deep can have several meanings, not even relating to the formation itself (and can cause confusion).

Even though the 33 Stack can be called a "tight cover 3" I have never heard the umbrella called a "wide cover 3". I confess that I don't know if the term is used or if it is considered correct in some region or not. I asked a few coaching buddies while putting together this article, and they didn't know either. (My old head coach said he never heard the term "wide cover 3" in all his years, and is pretty sure the 33 stack is considered a variation of the umbrella. By that token, he reasons, the "wide" isn't "wide", it's just the base. The term "tight cover 3" for the 33 stack is used to show that it is a variant from the "normal" spacing in the umbrella).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now I'm going to admit to something a little embarrassing. I always wanted to innovate a new formation or system, and one I played around with was based on using the Umbrella as a base formation. (This was when I was still pretty young and wet behind the ears). It would get slaughtered at the HS level (I reasoned) because of the heavier emphasis on running. But if I could be like Bum Phillips, and work my way up to the pros, I could destroy the passing games of many teams, and earn a SB trophy in no time! The key was to develop a run stopping scheme within the formation.

Anyway, I was at a seminar and for one of the free elective classes that sounded right up my alley we were supposed to present a new formation or scheme (the program itsself was on learning some college level techniques for matching systems with players, instead of running the same thing year after year that the coach likes). I brought in my "homework" assignment on the second day and (being young and foolish) didn't realize that the point of the excersise was to get you to "think", not to really advocate the system you had drawn up.

But when I was picked to go up front and talk about my wonderful creation I should have noticed that the other coach from my school who had signed up for the class (our OL/TEs coach) was shaking his head and turning red because he was embarassed, not because he was too proud of me to speak! I went on for several moments before I realized I had missed the entire point of the excercize. We were in a conference room with about 80 to 100 people. It remains one of the most embarassing memories I have. I heard about it the entire flight back a few days later, and I spent several years hoping I would never run into anyone that took that particular course at that seminar. There's a time to be innovative and to stand your ground. There's also a time to realize that you are just plain digging a hole.

I also learned what a true wingman is. A couple of minutes into my realization that I had just made a fool out of myself and couldn't think of a witty way I could just stop and save face, one of the presentation experts cut me off with a not so subtle (and kind of cruel), "What do you call your little system?"

Another attendee who had made friends with the position coach from my school, remembering that the nearby strip club was called "Annabelles" or something like that, spoke up. "I believe he calls it the 'ten scotch and sodas at Anabelles and us dragging him away from the clutches of Ilka the Milk Maid last night system' sir". While everyone broke up laughing I walked to my seat and sat down. The position coach elbowed me in the chest and quietly warned my not to speak to him, lest someone think that we knew each other. He was smiling though, and I've grown much older and wiser since that dark day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As always, feel free to drop any football questions (no matter how simple you might think they might be) in the comments section below. We have a lot of sharp folks around these parts, and someone is bound to be able to help you out.

We're all here to help each other out.

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Great write up HT...

please, do a piece on your wonderful creation. I am quite interested in seeing the formation drawings and how to use it. Give us here at MHR the full breakdown. Sounds like a good story. :)

by Tim Lynch on May 12, 2008 4:28 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I've learned that it is better...

to be on the teasing side, than the teased! LOL But I deserve it, so I’ll take my lumps. ; )

Gosh, that was ages ago. My thinking at the time was that I wanted an ultimate “bend don’t break system”. Being a rare fan of the safety positions, I thought it would be clever to develop a “formation based system” (like two of the 3-4 systems and most of the 46 systems) based on the concept that a big play would NEVER get past the defense, even at the expense of giving up short yardage on a consistent basis. WIth years of experience now I wouldn’t make the same mistake of course, but now I realize even more that my proposal didn’t pass the laugh test at the HS level, so it is more horrific contemplating trying to pass it off at the college or pro level.

Out of the Umbrella, I wanted cover CBs to play man on most downs. The three DLs would be 2 gaps. The LBs would have to be fast, and the SAFs fast as well. The MLB would zone a lot, the SAM would blitz or man the TE, and the WILL would blitz or zone. SAFs could play zone, but one or two could drop down to play double coverage as well.

One advantage I saw early on was the idea that I could save a lot of money by getting cheap safeties instead of (more) expensive defensive linemen. This was before the pro sal-cap rule though. The other major advantage I banked on was the near assurance that the opposing team could not quick strike for points, so I could control the clock if I was ahead. I would have to have a dynamic offense to make the clock game work. If behind, the system was a problem.

And that’s where it goes to heck. It wouldn’t have been a “prevent” defense, though it would have shared some traits. Thus, “clock management” would have to rely on an early lead. No matter how hard I schemed, the best run defenses involved cheating up the SAFs, which defeats the purpose of the cover-3 concept, and I might as well be using a LB at that point anyway.

One positive I DID credit myself for was noting the great match-up against Denver (though I wouldn’t want to go against my favorite team!). The two gaps of the DL and the distance of the LBs and the SAFs from scrimmage would negate the ZB nicely. The width of the LBS and the three across SAFs would also provide insurance against misdirection, as well as play action, and sweeps.

On the other hand, today’s Broncos would employ a 2 TE (or even a twin TE) and give the QB all day to pass. OR the TEs would gash the seams (like in a cover two, but worse).

The more I looked at it, the more problems I saw. But I figured if I could apply myself to the problem well enough, perhaps I could come up with something innovative enough to fix it. Several things washed together to teach me the error of my ways.

1. Watching the rare Umbrella formation in the pros on tv, I saw little success even for the pro coaches that used it as a specialized formation. (Offenses just seem to make adjustments at the line, and pick it apart).

2. The episode at the seminar made me so sick I never wanted to see another Umbrella again. (Remember the guy from “A Clockwork Orange” and what happened when the “negative association” training made “Ludwig Van’s Glorious Ninth” sicken the main character? I really WANT to stand under Brianna’s Umbrella-ella-ella, but the horror of the seminar experience makes me sick whenever I try to think about it). : )

3. I learned quickly that very few cute ideas even work at the middle school level, so who am I (newly on a high school athletic staff) to go to a seminar conducted (mostly) by college experts, and propose my pathetic little gimmick for the pros? The deeper I got into the game, the more silly my own ideas looked, and the more sense the time honored, established methods proved themselves. I learned that tiny alterations made big differences, and these were as rewarding as being a true “inventor”.

I like to have a good laugh, even at my own expense. It’s embarassing but funny to look back on it. I imagine it’s like if I was a med student, in my first year, and misunderstood an assignment and got up in front of my peers and profs and proceeded to tell them my thoughts on improving on proceedures for deep brain surgery.

Or mistaking an avat…. Forget it.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 5:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol!

I think you should give yourself credit for at least caring enough to attempt to make a big impact. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would bet that the kids you coached loved playing for you but that’s just a guess on my part.

And if I did in fact mistake an avat…yea, let’s forget that. ;)

by Tim Lynch on May 12, 2008 6:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the scheme of things...

...there are different personalities that coach. Some just don’t belong with kids at all. We had several “good cop/bad cop” types, and I certainly fell into the “good cop” side. Out head coach was a wonderful guy, and he loved the kids. But the kids walked on egg shells around him too. It was all a put on.

If things we’re going really badly (and we had pretty good teams, so it was rare) he would tell me that he was going to go blast the kids at half time. That was my cue to stay in the background until he finished trashing the locker room and screaming bloody murder. When he stormed out I was expected to jump in, encourage the kids, give a rousing pep talk, and get the kids psyched. When kids had personal issues those went to me too.

And I was the big joker on the staff. One year, knowing our coach was going to get dunked with Gatoraid (championship baby!), the kids took great delight in watching me send the equiptment managers back to the concession stands for more ice. The kids and I exchanged a lot of thumbs up, and the people in the stands even saw it coming and got in the act.

But HERE’S the funny part. The little “fatherless individuals” ratted me out right away, and the HC chased me around one of the benches for a good while. I couldn’t stop laughing while I was running, but a part of me really was caught off guard and I was more than a little worried about what was going to happen if he caught me. I wasn’t acting for the kids sake, but they thought it was hysterical.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 6:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great Stuff, as usual

My Jaguars are using 3 CB’s for about 60% of the time now, might as well call the Nickel our base defense after dealing with the Colts year in and year out…

-Chris

Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!

by River City Rage on May 12, 2008 4:49 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea, but the Jags have a great defensive line that

is able to put Peyton on his back consistently. We have a young, talented line that will need to be helped out more than usualy for the next year or two. But believe me when I say, hurt Manning…make him pay for every completed pass! Make him wish he played in the NFC West! :)

by Tim Lynch on May 12, 2008 4:55 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great example River.

You guys face a team that lives in the 3 WR set, and features perhaps the quickest mind in any QB. You would have to live in the nickel to face the Colts.

It’ll be interesting to see how the DT position adjusts to change this year, and to see how the Groves pick works out at DE (that you magicaly predicted). You guys can’t do anything until you get to Peyton or he retires.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am certainly no authority on Colts ball

but from what I have seen, it seems like they are much, much less productive when you stop the running game. The thing about Manning is that even when he is playing in a onedimensional game, he has the ability to do amazing things.

But I agree that when the offense is working, and the Colts are running the ball, his ability to dissect the defense in front of him probably makes defensive coordinators pull their hair out.

So in terms of the running game, the Colts are just like everybody else, stop it and that will give you a chance. And I noticed the comment by AJ Smith (Sandy Eggo GM) over on Big Cat Country, about believing that you HAD to have 3 starters at CB in today’s league. I would be interested to know if he thought that third corner should specifically by a corner, or if another SAF would do…

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 12, 2008 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Colts offense is based on two concepts...

Timing & Play action.

Take away either, and you have a prayer. You can mess up timing by getting to Manning or jamming the receivers effectively. You can mess up the play action by lessening the threat of the run game.

Good call.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 6:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's an interesting point...

The Jaguars can go with Brian Williams as a corner (giving us Mathis, Florence and Williams) as our three CB’s, or there’s talk of Williams going to Strong Safety, where the Jaguars would use Williams and Sensabaugh as the traditional safeties, with Reggie Nelson playing center field.

Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!

by River City Rage on May 12, 2008 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

as I recall

two years ago we were 10 up at halftime in mile high against the colts. Why? we shut down the running game and play action. Second half didnt work too well for us because they got their running game back

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 12, 2008 6:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

AJ

“And I noticed the comment by AJ Smith (Sandy Eggo GM) over on Big Cat Country, about believing that you HAD to have 3 starters at CB in today’s league. I would be interested to know if he thought that third corner should specifically by a corner, or if another SAF would do…”

Cromartie, Jammer and now Cason, all number ones, all CBs. Supposedly Paul Oliver who we picked up last year in the supplemental draft is moving to safety because he is a touch slow at CB, so I think you can say from the draft pick that AJ absolutely wants three top flight corners. I kinda worry because when NE put in their three tight end package they ran it right down our throats.

by Brian (DaBolts) on May 14, 2008 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rock Paper Scissors

For every strategy, there’s a counter. I love it.

Well, maybe not: if you pound the living Jebus out of the QB, you’re in good shape. :o)

I absolutely agree: you need three solid “CBs” in today’s NFL. The rules are tilted in favor of the offense (although recent rules changes did favor the defense.) Three and four receiver sets are pretty common, and more RBs and TEs can split out wide from more traditional sets. To succeed, a team must have the ability to defend against an all-out passing offense when needed.

Does that additional “CB” need to be a cornerback? I would think: not necessarily. Take the similar cases of Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez. Too big for a corner, too fast for a linebacker. What do you do? In Denver’s case (from a few years ago), bring in Sam Brandon, a safety with the size and speed to match a TE.

Although, looking at HT’s lesson…I do have questions here. I always assumed that Denver’s “Big Nickle” brought in Brandon instead of an additional CB. HT talks about the Big Nickle as a 3 CB formation that brings the SS up close for run AND TE support. HT: Was I just completely off on my assumptions about the Big Nickle?

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 14, 2008 9:13 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are not off at all.

So long as a team meets the definition of a “big nikel”, they are in a big nickel. Denver’s big nickel package is going to bring in players that they feel will give them what they want in that formation. If a SAF lines up as a CB, or a CB lines up as a safe, it is because the team feels this is the best package for the formation, and what they are trying to accomplish with it.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 16, 2008 1:48 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hardly call it predicting...

I was 95% convinced that we’d take him at the 26 spot in the first round and that it’d be a less than optimal solution to our pass-rush woes. Harvey and Groves together, that’s a lot more exciting.

Ask the Guru about my reaction on draft day to the Jaguars trading up to get Harvey. Never in my wildest dreams did I see the Jaguars get Harvey AND Groves.

You’re dead on though, the quarterback must go down and he must go down hard.

Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!

by River City Rage on May 12, 2008 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guru made a solid pitch to us for taking Harvey too.

After the shock wore down (most of us felt that DE was covered) we agreed that he would be a great addition, or at worse (or best?) good trade bait right after we selected him.

I look forward to seeing what Jax can do.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just one more

in a long line of greats posts. Thanks ht. I finish these with X’s and O’s and formations and systems spinning in my head, but each time I know a little more. Also, I really appreciate the articulate, well thought out, and respectful participation from a fan of another team. It was good to read your comments River.

I am missing a joke somewhere? Zappa

by firstfan on May 12, 2008 9:24 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

About River

River is the “Guru” for the Jacksonville Jaguars site (Editor-in Chief of BigCatCountry.com).

He’s a quality guy, never trash mouths, and runs a quality site. He’s very cool for coming to our neck of the woods to say hi every now and then. He’s definetely a friend of the site, and an honored guest.

He’s given us some nice comments on his site too. I see our coming game this year as a chance to talk some ball without the trash you might get from other sites. But my experience on the whole is that most editors in the SBN network are decent folks. Even the Chief Editor of the raider’s site (while talking tough) is respectful and fair.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aha!

“No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities.” -Christian Nevell Bovee

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 16, 2008 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you do when the delusion belies truth?

I refer you to my indepth and scientific study on the basic emotional state of a raider fan during the course of the season. Read this lol

by Tim Lynch on May 19, 2008 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh you dog!

I guess I earned my place in your signature. lol

by Tim Lynch on May 12, 2008 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a vivid recreation

of the experience of being a coach on the sideline. Pretty intense. I think I need to go lie down now. With us being in the dead space being the draft and mini-camp, I live for these educational articles. At some point before the season starts I might print out a full set and put them in a ring binder. Question: If the nickel has five DBs, what does the dime have?

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 12, 2008 11:31 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's ten!

You are right. That is a great recreation. I don’t think I would have the nerves to be a coach or coordinator.

I am missing a joke somewhere? Zappa

by firstfan on May 13, 2008 1:08 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reasoning for the title "dime" is kind of stupid.

Go into any teachers’ lounge and you’ll often notice that the teachers who are coaches have their own clique, and the ther teachers crack (friendly) jokes about the coach/teachers being cavemen. That’s because we are.

Take the football justification for calling a formation a “dime”. If a nickel is “5 DBs” a dime should be “10 DBs”. But here’s the actual definition, and the pathetic reasoning:

A nickle is “five DBs”, because a nickel is worth 5 cents. Add one more DB, and you go up one coin. Thus a dime is 6 DBs. Sad isn’t it? Still, I’d rather do it that way than use the Euro or some metric standard.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 13, 2008 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

...and the OTHER teachers crack...

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 13, 2008 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are there any formations exclusive to the Broncos?

The Raiders run several player specific defensive formations. For example, the Raiders used to run a package they called Wolverine for obvious reasons, when CW was a Raider. They still run special packages for Aso and Huff, and Howard and Morrison.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 1:57 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

What are the nature of the packages

for Aso and Huff? And also, I can’t remember who CW is…I’m thinking but it isn’t coming to me. Player or coach?

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 13, 2008 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great question OFS

Denver doesn’t have any “true” unique formations. Some are rarer than others (3 TE sets, Big Jumbos, etc), but none that haven’t been seen elsewhere before.

Denver (like every team) has a few wrinkles in formations that make them odd though. Denver doesn’t do it too much anymore, but for a few years until a couple of years ago, Denver would often set up in a 2 TE set, then motion the strong side TE into a strong-offset FB position. The formation was still a “Strong I, Weak TE”, so it wasn’t truely a unique formation. But the adjustments the other team had to make to figure out what was going on were extreme because you had just radicaly altered the posibilities for the offense. It takes special personnel to do that of course, and the raiders have their share of talent to do similar things.

I’ll address “packages” in a comment further down the thread where you discuss Woodson.

In terms of formations, most can be described with the nomenclature system that is used in football. If I developed a really bizzare formation, someone would probably be able to name it based on how it is a variant of another formation. Some examples of strange formations (and naming):

The Jets tried to stop the Pats this past December by using only one DL and six LBs. (Right away, most folks called it a 1-6 formation). The LBs played “rover”, which is a zone type activity, but not truly zone either. The LBs stay in motion or switch places often to confuse the QB, and might blitz, man, or go into a true zone. It stopped Brady, but not the Pats.

Rare? Very. Unique? No. It’s called a “sixteen” (based on the 1-6 nomenclature) and it’s been done before. I imagine one could still call it a 1-6 and be proper, but you can tell if someone has any familiarity with it by if they use the naming system (1-6) or the name used by colleges that have run it before (16).

Another weird formation is the Belichick 0-4-7. Technicaly it is a quarter formation (it has 7 DBs). It features 4 CBs, and three SAFs. It also features 4 LBs arranged in a semi circle pointed away from the offense. To my knowledge it IS unique. It could possibly be called “Quarter, 0 line set” or a 0-4-7. Since I’ve never been able to find much on the formation, I honestly don’t know which is considered proper. (I don’t go by what the media calls it. I wait to hear a coach name it properly). Most quarters are 4-1-7 or 3-0-7. (There are half dollar formations, but I’ve only seen them run 3-0-8).

I’m sure you know some of that information, but I wanted to use your question to shed some light for readers on some of the fun things that happen with odd formations.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 13, 2008 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whew!

When you said that in the 0-4-7 the four LBs are “in a semi circle pointed away from the offense,” I thought for a split second you meant the players themselves were pointed away from the offense. And I thought, Whoa, that is radical.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 13, 2008 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I should have said ”...that points away…”.

Funny you should mention it though. Some of the very early single wing formations featured players in the offensive backfield lined up facing towards the sidelines, instead of scrimmage.

Thanks for the catch!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 13, 2008 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

CW = Charles Woodson

that guy from Michigan who won the Heisman at CB, had a few great years, but was injured much of the latter half of his Raider tenure.

Aso and Huff both filled his roles in years past in the Wolverine package, though I believe the name has changed since that time, as the Wolverine is now a Packer. Basically, its a package giving one DB ultimate responsibility for blitz and/or coverage calls. Charles used to play on the line, in the slot, and his actions were determined by the offensive formation and motion looks. Whenever possible, he would blitz, or attempt to jump a hot rout, away from the blitz. The idea was to get the best defensive play maker in position to make plays.

The Raiders have done some of the same things with Aso and Huff, but not to the extent they did with Woodson. However, they are both still very young and I believe expanded packages for both of them are in the works for the future. You have to get your best players the best chances to make plays, and Rob Ryan is usually pretty good at that.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 8:44 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Woodson, Wolverine, and roamers

I’ve always liked Woodson. I’m for any DB that can get a Heisman! My maternal grandfather was a UPI vice president in New York, and his name was Charles Woodsum. I always thought of my grandfather when I heard the name “Charles Woodson”, though they have very little in common. (I wouldn’t have wanted to see my grandfather on the field!). A lot of fans might appreciate knowing that that Woodson beat Manning for the Heisman in ‘97 by 282 votes. He was also defensive rookie of the year.

To be honest with you, there are some things I just don’t know about. I’m not familiar at all with the Wolverine Package. (I know that Woodson was a Michigan Wolverine in college). I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a formation. On the other hand, I’m thinking you might be refering less to a unique formation, and more to a role played by Woodson. Am I right?

If so, I’m guessing Woodson’s role might have been as a “roamer”. You know more about Woodson and the raiders, so you can probably expand on this thought or tell me if I’m off.

A “roamer” is a uniqe role for an exceptional player. Lynch (SS-DEN) has played this role, but not on every down. It is sometime’s confused with “rover”, which I mentioned in a comment just upthread. When people say “rover”, they usualy mean “roamer”.

A rover is someone on defense who’s job is to move around the field and cause confusion (an offensive “man in motion” is not considered a rover). He has a “rove”, which is like a zone, that he stays in because he has to be in a certain area if his assignment is going to be carried out properly (whether he zones, blitzes, mans).

A roamer (what I suspect you are talking about with a Woverine Package, but tell me if I’m wrong) is a defensive player that is given a lot of leeway, often to direct other players pre-snap, but also to change his own assignment without direction from the coordinator AND to change where he lines up without sideline input. A lot of players look like roamers. A FS is often given a deep zone and left alone to do what he wants, but he really isn’t a true roamer in this role. For example, he couldn’t just race up to the strong side and line up next to the L-DE if he wants to.

Roamers don’t always have (rarely have) the authority to direct other players. Today’s offenses are just too complex to do this often. Lynch (whom many consider one of the “football smartest” players in the NFL) only roams on occassional plays (both repositioning himself and changing other player’s assignments in real time). Usually, the MLB calls adjustments (mostly because he is centermost in the formation and can be heard/seen by everyone else). Oddly though, it is usually the SAFs who have more vision to see the overall plays develop, and the “job” to read what is going to happen to adjust themselves accordingly. They just aren’t positioned in the best place to take advantage of this.

I’m thinking that the “Wolverine Package” might have to do with plays where Woodson is given the roamer role. (I’m also thinking that it is not the play call term, even if Coach Ryan uses the term in public. Any team is, at most, likely to have one true “roam capable” player at a time. If it is Woodson, the term “roam” or some other short word might be used in the call. They probably wouldn’t use a number, since that could lead to confusing the number with any other numbers in the call).

Wolverine should follow Woodson to GB if he is used in a similar role there. It is (I would imagine) named after his college team, and shouldn’t change simply because he changed teams. I say this because I suspect that Woodson probably played a roam in college, and that’s why the raiders adopted the name, as well as the role for CW. I don’t follow college ball, so again, I don’t know how MI used Woodson).

Also, a little trivia on the term “package”. I’m suspecting you have used the term correctly, where many people use it improperly. There is also a small chance that the term will soon vanish. More on that in a moment.

“Package” refers to which personnel are on the field. Some people substitute the term “package” for “formation”. As in, “Denver sends in the nickel package”. If Denver sends in a nickel with, say, Boss Bailey and DJ Williams at LB, that is a certain nickel package. If they send in a nickel with K2 and Williams, that is a different nickel package, even if the formation and variation are the same (let’s say a “standard nickel” for instance).

I’ve heard (in passing) at some of the coaching conferances I’ve been to that a few sports media groups and academic / athletic organizations have discussed the possibility of doing away with the term, since “nickel packages” and “dime packages” sound kind of like slang refering to drug use. This was only in the last couple of years that I was coaching (just a few years ago), so I don’t know if it is picking up steam or not. No one (to my knowledge) has released a position paper or an announcement, and I haven’t heard anything about it since.

My guess is that a Wolverine Package might refer to any formation that Woodson is in AND playing a roam role.

Am I at all close to what you are talking about? If so, I hope I’ve expanded on it and perhaps shed some light for some readers, at least, on the “roam” and “package” terms. If not, I’m always learning myself, and would appreciate anything you can tell me about the wolverine as you know it.

Good stuff in that reply to Styg!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 13, 2008 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thats how I would decsribe CW's role.....

as a roamer. Honestly I dont understand the exact complexities of the Wolverine package, but Woodson was the leader and everything was based off his initial keys. It was named Wolverine because of CW’s college days, and the Raiders still run the same package with Huff and Aso, just under a different name. Everyone went off Woodson’s key. If he was going to blitz, the remainder of the D would compensate with say press coverage to cover the hot routs. If he was going to drop in coverage or jump a rout, the defense may blitz away from him, but again, I only know this from brief press conferences where the coaches briefly discussed such packages in the past.

OakFoSho

S&BP > Mile High Mules ............ Like Sharks? http://mvn.com/nhl-sharks/

by 0akFoSho on May 13, 2008 10:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

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