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Grading a depth chart - TSN

The Sporting News has a depth chart up on the Broncos at their site. Let's take a look, and come to our own conclusions. (As always, keep in mind that the terms "right" and "left" refer to the team's own view. So if I write R-DE, that means the DE to the QB's left, and the MLB's right).

QB - Cutler, Ramsey

No surprise here. Maybe Ramsey gets knocked down by a younger competitor in camp, but not likely.

RB - Henry, Young, Torain

Still no surprises. But really, nothing here is a surprise. HBs rotate all over the depth chart. We may see several combinations of runners through the season. Henry will get the lead if he doesn't get hurt and doesn't dissapoint.

FB - Sapp, Hillis

Again, no surprises yet. Either player could emerge. Hillis is closer to a true blocker, and gives us a power running edge. Sapp is a better runner than blocker, with decent hands for short yardage screens.

LT - Clady, Harris

Still nothing shocking. But I'm not comfortable with Harris, who hasn't played a down, backing at the critical LT spot. Camp will figure this out. Still, not a projection that is off the wall.

LG - Hamilton, K-Lich

This one surprised me a little, but not much. Hamilton will start at LG, and K-Lich can play either guard position. It is my hope that K-Lich is being groomed to take the OC position after the departures of Nalen and Wiegmann.

OC - Nalen, Wiegmann

Nalen still has it in him to get it done one more time, and is a master of our OL system. Wiegmann is there in case Nalen goes down. He isn't going to be a long term replacement for Nalen. In my mind he will hold the spot while K-Lich learns.

RG - Holland, Alexander.

Nope. Holland will start if Kuper is bumped out to play RT (as the writers at TSN think he will), but I think Alexander is not going to make the game day team.

RT - Kuper, Pears.

As I wrote in another fanpost, a lot depends on where Kuper plays. If he plays at RT, Holland starts RG. Start Kuper at RG, Pears starts at RT. Kuper at start with Pears at back-up is reasonable.

WR - #1 Colbert, #2 Marshall, Slot - Stokely (Jackson as a back-up)

What? No way. The chart is based on a 4-3, and lists Colbert at #1, with Stokely's name under his. It lists Marshall at #2, with Jackson's name under his. In 4-3 charts, the #1 back-up really means slot. But Colbert at #1? This deserves some more comments!

First, I don't envision Colbert as the starting star for Denver. Perhaps he has a breakout year being in a new environment with a better QB. But starter? I think Coach said that Colbert reminded him of Eddie Mac, so maybe there is something there. Even though I really like Marshall a lot, he excells at the #2 position, and would be great staying there. I just don't see Colbert as the bump.

On the other hand, I'll be surprised, but not shocked if Marshall stays at #2. Not because he isn't the best receiver on the team (he's clearly earned #1), but because he fits #2 so well. He is the best run blocking WR we have, and that means protection for Jay on boot leg runs. He also has great hands and can fight through tackles, perfect for the weakside where less defenders roam (and one is a WILL). I still would heavily project him to start at #1, I'm just saying I won't have a heart attack if we see him at 2. Jackson would start at #1 if such a bizarre scenario unfolds.

But Colbert? I think most members of MHR will agree that Jackson might appear more likely to start at #2, with Marshall at #1. Colbert will compete for the #2 spot in camp with Jackson. The loser will likely back up Marshall at #1. Parker may back up the #2, and Royal should back up slot.

TE - Graham, Scheffler

No surprises here. A lot of folks love Scheff, and they would want him to get the most starts. But Denver remains a run first team, and Graham gives us the blocking skills we need. Scheff will be a monster on several downs by forcing the defense to cover him.

FS - Abdullah, Manuel, Barrett

Hamza has the start if he doesn't get bumped in camp. The player who can demonstrate the best ability to cover over a range and read offenses best will get the gig. Hamza may be disadvantaged against veteran FAs in terms of reading QBs, but his youth and speed may balance for that. This will be a good battle in camp. (Keep in mind that Denver has been calling Lynch a FS. This is more out of respect for Lynch, since FS is seen as the primary SAF. He actualy lines up and plays as a SS). The wildcard will be Barrett. He has the raw skills to be the best SAF on the team, but lacks the experience and needs to fine tune his abilities.

SS - Lynch, McCree

Lynch gets the start. The question is, will he play most downs or will he play situationaly? Lynch is such a competitor, smart, and focused on training, that I have a hard time believing he will only get rare shots at plays. Do I like him if we need to throw out two deep SAFs? No. But Lynch has a brain like a coach and (more impressively) the ability to process the information faster that a coach and under physical pressure. He may lose a step, but his mind puts him a step and a half ahead of the play. We may wait another year before going after a successor.

CBs - Bailey, Bly, Paymah, Foxworth, Williams

Bailey is the best in the business. Bly is darned good, for a guy playing with only one SAF behind him. Paymah passed Foxworth in playing nickel last year, but either CB is more than capable of playing nickel.

Williams gives the team depth if the looming contracts of Bailey and Bly become troublesome. Really, the three youngsters on the team could hold their own in this league if push came to shove. Add in a superstar (to bump Fox, Pay, and Williams down a spot), and we have a great CB group again.

WLB - Williams, Winborn.

It struck me that if D-Will had lived to see this season, we would have had Williams and Williams at RCB and ROLB, and Bailey and Bailey at LCB and LOLB. It's a bittersweet thought.

Williams will dominate at WILL. Winborn gives us the speed needed at the position if DJ goes down. I love the starter and the depth here.

MLB - K2, Beck

A lot of folks are concerned about K2. I am more confident in K2 than any of our other new players. Either way, he will be our starter. The issue is Beck. TSN is right that Beck is the back-up for now, but this doesn't leave me very comfortable. Watch for a battle in camp where another LB knocks him into the practice squad, or off of the team.

SLB - Boss, Webster

As with the other OLB position, we have a good starter and good depth. Boss will be a player to watch this year. Next to our DT situation, Boss could be a make or break factor for a team that faces quality TEs in our division.

R-DE - Moss, Doom

I disagree. Doom has established himself as the starter. Moss was picked to be the superman at this position, but was injured and off of our radar. There is a very decent chance he returns and truly is a master DE. But since Doom was there first, Doom will start. But who cares. If both players are rock stars and put into rotation, do we really care who gets the title, "starter"?

L-DE - Ekuban, Crowder

This is a tough call. Between Ek, Crowder, and Engleberger we have awesome depth. Any of these guys can start and we can rotate to keep guys fresh. TSN's guess is as good as mine.

R-DT - DRob, McKinley, Powell

DRob should start, and Thomas should start next to him. So the only real question is who starts behind each. McKinley is decent, but nothing special. That's ok. His job is to spell DRob in a position that wears down big guys fast. All he has to do is come in and hold the line for a few plays here and there. Whether he is used to spell or to rotate is the question.

If rotation is the scheme, then Powell should be able to compete with McKinley for more plays. From what I'm reading about Powell and his work ethic, I think he may have an edge on McKinley in endurance, though trailing in experience. A battle in camp between Powell and McKinley may determine if the team uses a spell or rotation scheme for the line.

L-DT - Thomas, Harris

Thomas is projected to be something special. A lot of folks really believe in this kid (his biggest endorsement comes from MHR heavyweight and Victor Hugo look-a-like Styg50). He got playing time during the mess that was 2007, when the starters in front of him crumbled. He endured system shifts, and will face another this year. He'll also be playing next to a new face. The chips are stacked against him, but his skills aren't going to be a problem. He has yet to blossom, but shows steady improvement. This may be a break out year for him. With DRob, he carries the weight of Denver's improvement or failure in run defense for 2008.

Harris was brought in late in 2007 as an UFA. He would not appear (at first glance), to be anything comforting to fans concerned about depth.

Based on the names, (and not knowing what kind of DT pairings Denver will need for a new system in 2008), I would like to see DRob and Thomas start, with Mckinley and Powell spelling. I don't know if Mckinley or Powell are good enough to rotate in often, but either is good enough to spell. If Powell proves himself early, perhaps he can be in rotation with DRob and Thomas, with Mckinley as a spell. (Again, with the certainty that we will NOT play a contain system, we have no way of knowing for sure which types of DTs Denver will want on the line yet. Starters will be determined in camp, and preseason will cut away the fat and give us a glimpse, albeit vanilla, of what we will run).

Over all I think TSN did ok. But the goofiness at WR lost me. As we discussed, the other positions have some interesting twists that are open to debate (and I hope that you will).

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this depth chart, someone else's, or even your own. Or thoughts on my thoughts, or each others. You get the idea. And here's a fun one to ponder as well - Do you see any surprising bumps on the depth chart at camp that nobody else sees coming? Perhaps a surprising youngster knocking a vet down a peg?

Camp is coming soon, and with it, the first looks at what the team has really been doing behind the curtain at the drawing board for the last few months. This is an exciting time! It means the season is drawing nearer...

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Andre Hall

On the limited number of runs the kid had, Andre Hall was a monster IMO. A product of local USF, I love this guy. As far as I saw, he has the one-cut-and-run style perfect for our scheme and could bump Selvin. I’m still not sold on Torrain with his injuries and lack of speed. I’m also still a little upset over the FB drafting, I love Sapp. I’m hoping we play even more 2-TE sets this season, though I’m not as sold on Scheff as everyone else. The WR thing still puzzles me, but I’m sure it’ll work out for the best (though I dislike Colbert.)

"I could never quite get the hang of Thursdays..."

by FlaBroncoFan on May 18, 2008 8:44 AM MDT reply actions  

Lot's of good stuff in there Fla!

I wouldn’t worry about Sapp. Even with taking a FB in the draft (and kind of late too), we still gave Sapp an extension on his contract this reloading season. I don’t think Sapp is going anywhere. Hillis may very well be a true blocker, and suited for the role that Sapp fills, but I suspect the interest in Hillis may have to do more with his ability to run. As strange as that sounds, I wouldn’t be surprised if the interest in Hillis is because scouts see something they like in Hillis in terms of being coverted into a power runner.

I’m surprised you aren’t on the Scheff bandwagon. What aren’t you sold on? (I am with you on hoping for more 2 TE sets, and would also agree that Graham is our primary TE, despite the popularity of Scheff with so many).

I’m with you on being puzzled by the WR thing. I don’t know what to make of Colbert. My hope is that, with so many new faces at WR, one of them works out to be a good #2 WR. I’m hoping the rest give us great depth.

Torrain gives us something that no one else gives us – a power, one cut bruiser in the event that Henry goes down. Speed isn’t his focus. If he can wear down defenses and ensure short yardage (and burn the clock) then he’s doing his job. He just won’t be fancy doing it.

Hall is an awesome RB, but showed that he (along with Young) will get hurt if overused. I think Hall is a specialists at the NFL level, and I use that word as a compliment. I’m with you in hoping that he is able to contribute this year.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 18, 2008 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

I haven't seen

enough from scheffler yet. I don’t get every game down here, so I haven’t seen ALL of his games, but Denver has had a lot of games aired here over the past two years, and it looks to me like Scheffler is just about average. I saw a few catches I liked, but nothing spectacular, and not enough of them to really emphasize his worth to me. Don’t get me wrong, I know he’s good, I just don’tt hink he’s as good as many others seem to think.

"I could never quite get the hang of Thursdays..."

by FlaBroncoFan on May 18, 2008 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's a fair view.

I’m in the camp that thinks he’s special. In the games I’ve been able to catch, Scheff has made some tough catches. I think his value lies in the fact that when the receivers are shut down, Cutler can get the ball near Scheff and not worry. On scripted plays he matches over most SAMs and SSs.

I think too many people like him over Graham because there is nothing spectacular about a blocking TE. (Even at MHR a few folks complain about how much we pay him to just block). Graham is the starter because he blocks so well, and we are a run first team. In that vein I would agree that Scheff gets overhyped. It isn’t fair to compare the two, since they fill different roles. Overall, Graham is more valuable to the team.

Still, I think Scheff (looked at on his own) is still a special player. When the play calls for a TE to be a safety valve, or when the play calls for the TE to go into a route, Scheff can be counted on to do a better job than most TEs in the League (in my opinion). He is still young and improving, which also makes him exciting.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 18, 2008 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree that Graham is the most valuable TE on the team. I don’t see what Scheff has left to prove to Denver. He has 9 TDs over his last two years playing a back-up role and was injured for part of the season. He’s capable of making tough catches (San Diego / Chicago). Maybe most important of all, Cutler trusts him.

by Bronco Billy on May 18, 2008 11:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's certainly made

some spectacular catches, like the one in the end zone in which he literally yanked the ball out of the air while falling down. You probably know which one I mean.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 19, 2008 12:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

That play

didn’t even have him as a scripted receiver, but his blocker fell down so he turned around a presented a shoulder to Cutler.

Just in time.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 21, 2008 12:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hillis

Has blocked for to first round picks in the very same draft DMC and Felix Jones. That alone should bode well for the FB-part of his assignments. Also i’ve heard buzz that he is great at cathing the ball out of backfield, and can even be lined up at slot. He seems like an utility-tool, and a great red-zone weapon, as illustrated here.

Actually, upon further review i actually semms to have samewhat breakaway-speed, also!

It seems as if he was the odd-RB-out i Arkansas – and being the odd-man behind Jones and McFadden is excusable, i guess?

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on May 19, 2008 4:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right as always!

Beyond being a superb FB, Hillis may be used as a RB in Denver. He can run and catch, as well as block. I don’t think he can get away with lining up at slot at the pro level, but who knows? His versatility makes him very valuable.

Good cal.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 19, 2008 6:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Colbert thing is a little strange

and I guess it could be a bad thing that TSN mainly agrees with me (aside from the big surprises). After hearing all you guys and your viewpoints, I’m not so sold on this thing going in a completely different direction…plus, we’re still a ways away from the start of the season. Again, I didn’t have Moss there either over Doom and I don’t know who did. You can’t give Jarvis the start with the way Elvis played last season. It wouldn’t be right…right?

I remember back in the discussion that a lot of people had McCree starting instead of Abdullah (but he’s listed at the SS here) and I know some didn’t think Ekuban would start. I also guess that TSN, like myself, took Shanny’s words into consideration when predicting the starters on the line. In a perfect world, Kuper could be the better starter on the line, and Pears deserves consideration after his recent play, but if Chris goes tackle I might see things shaking out that way…at least this early.

Also, bcfunk had a nice opinion on Moss’ future (that would be across from DOOM, unlike TSN has it).

If Moss is fully recovered and ready to play hard and fast by camp, then I expect him to become our other starting DE. He might not be a starter by Game 1, but if he doesn’t start by the middle of the season then we’ve got problems. I look at Eck/Eng as our backup/rotation options, not our starters. I just don’t think you draft a guy as high as we did Moss without the expectation that he’d be our starter sooner than later. His injury was an unfortunate setback last season.

In the end, it’s not going to matter who gets the “gold stars” and get their names into the starter position. I’m hoping to see a solid rotation on the line…it’s been pulled off with great success before (see the Green Bay Packers and the Eagles before injuries set in a few years ago). I think it’d make Denver that much better and fresher – of course, the players you’re rotating have to do a good job.

by phantom818 on May 18, 2008 9:33 AM MDT reply actions  

instead of “on the line” I meant to type “could be a better starter at guard”...as that’s a position he has shown some strength in, but he is versatile and I trust that Shanahan knows what he’s doing here.

by phantom818 on May 18, 2008 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think your thinking makes sense.

We agree that Moss should not be the starter. TSN puts Moss at starter, and I don’t agree. Moss may have been a high draft pick, but he was injured and Doom demonstrated a top 10 or better ability last year. Moss will have to earn his position. If healthy, I expect he will play in rotation.

We agree on the OL, but I reread my story and saw that I did a poor job expressing myself. When I said “Nope”, I was referring to Alexander. I don’t expect him to make the game day team. While I lean towards Kuper at RG and Pears at RT, I could just as easily see Holland at RG and Kuper at RT.

I think the SAF position may be entirely up in the air. Hamza and Lynch must not be a long term solution if we are bringing in 2 FAs and a draft pick. I’m confident in Lynch, but this should probably be his last year. I’m also pulling for Hamza, but the recent moves make we wonder if he missed to many tackles last year.

I’m also pulling for Eng, Ek, and Crowder. DEs who aren’t speedy pass rush specialists like Doom or Moss don’t get a lot of credit, but fighting through the strong side is an art in itsself.

But the “gold stars” do make a difference. I’m hoping for a heavy rotation as you are. But the players designated as starters make a difference, and the guys will compete mightly for it. For one, it becomes an issue in negotiating salaries, and also the starters (even in rotation) see more playing time.

Great stuff again Phantom!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 18, 2008 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Safety Depth

hoosierteacher said:

I think the SAF position may be entirely up in the air. Hamza and Lynch must not be a long term solution if we are bringing in 2 FAs and a draft pick. I’m confident in Lynch, but this should probably be his last year. I’m also pulling for Hamza, but the recent moves make we wonder if he missed to many tackles last year.

I could be wrong, but it wasn’t my impression that they brought in McCree, Manual, and Barrett because they were dissatisfied with Hamza. I though it was because 1) this is probably Lynch’s last year, and 2) we’ve had very little in the way of quality depth. When Foxy is your depth at safety, what does that tell you? So maybe it’s the people behind Hamza and Lynch they’re dissatisfied with, or maybe the lack of same. Actually, given how well Foxy has played there when called upon, I sometimes wonder why they haven’t converted him. Although I’m not sure they’re dissatisfied with Hamza, the jury is still out. I don’t have a clear sense of how much upside he has, so no doubt Shanahan is covering his bets. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see us go for a safety in the first round next year, depending on how things shake out this year.

I, too, am surprised by TSN’s take on the WR depth chart. Your critique is excellent and thought-provoking. Unless Shanahan has seen something we’ve both missed, I see Jackson ahead of him, most likely at two put possibly at one in the intriguing scenario you outlined.

I can’t see Moss ahead of Dumervil. Doom improved on an impressive rookie campaign and looks to make another jump. Moss has played only part of one year. We hope Moss will become a dominant pass rusher. We know Doom already is.

It makes sense having D-Rob at right DT. From what I’m understanding from your tutelage and my extracurricular reading, when one tackle is playing two-gap and the other is the “under tackle”, the two-gapper tends to line up on the weakside shaded towards the OC. I wouldn’t be surprised if Thomas turns out to be capable of two-gap at the pro level – I really love this kid – but D-Rob is experienced at it. And it makes sense having Powell playing behind him. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him gain playing time at McKinley’s expense as the season wears on.

At left DE I don’t doubt that Ekuban, an accomplished run-stopper, plays ahead of Crowder, although I see Crowder being used as a situational pass-rusher, as well as in rotation. I think he’ll eventually develop into a run-stopper who can also rush the passer, and thus be a three-down lineman. I think he’ll move into the starting role in 2009. I can’t add much to your o-line comments, except to agree. All in all an interesting article and a nice critique.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 18, 2008 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess I’ll post here since I agree with almost everything Spock said, along with HT. Although, I not as comfortable with Foxworth. The one thing I do like about Hamza is how he attacks the RB instead of letting the RB come to him. He reminds me of Lynch and Sanders in that regard. He just needs to tackle a lot better, but I do like his mindset. Is it at all possible to have our starting Safeties be Lynch and McCree? I don’t know a enough about McCree to venture my own opinion.

I completely agree that Dumervil will start at RE. TSN suggesting anything to the contrary is almost criminal. Looking at our depth at defense, I can’t see us playing the way we did last year.

I agree with Jackson / Marshall as the starters at WR.

The one thing I disagree on is FB. I’ve longed for the days of Griffith and hope Hillis can be that type of player. Sapp is very effective, but I still think we need a better true-blocker.

As for my surpirses, they both come from VT. Royal will be the PR. I also see him utilized in the offense for gimmick plays and to stretch the offense. I’m not sure how his stats will read at year’s end, but I feel with him on the field, it will stretch the defense and open up the running nd passing game. I wouldn’t mind seeing him line up on the same side of the ball as Marshall, perhaps to draw the safety and Nickle deep putting Marshall on man. There’s not too many DBs who can tackle Marshall one-on-one on a consistent basis. The only problem when watching Royal’s tape is he doesn’t seem to get seperation from his defender. I really think lining up against our secondary will make him a better WR.

I’m also really high on Powell and what he brings to the run defense. I don’t think he will start thi year, but it’s hard to ignore that he was the only DL to hold the RB to negative yardage throughout his career when the ball was run towards him. Hopefully he’s a quick learner and will develop quickly.

by Bronco Billy on May 19, 2008 12:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

Spock

Great thoughts all!

On the SAF issue – I’m guessing that Hamza and Lynch start, while we move our SAF depth (Fox and Pay) to full time CB work where they belong. Now we have true safeties at depth for the SAF positions. I think Hamza showed he has some talent and can improve, and I’m pulling for him to continue so we can see how he pans out. Still, I’m not sure he showed enough to be entirely safe in his job for this year. Camp battles at SAF will be huge.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 19, 2008 6:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Insuring against the loss of Hamza

is what is behind the nature of all the safety signings. Mcree and Manuel were brought in while Hamza was still testing the market as an RFA. Next year he is a UFA (along with foxy and paymah) and that is a lot of DBs to get signed in one offseason. Even if we like his progress, we might not have the opportunity to keep him.

And Barrett has some MAJOR question marks regarding consistency. I wouldn’t consider him ahead of roderick rogers at this point. SAF is just one of many postitons that is firmly entrenched in year 3 of a five year cycle.

I’m stealing Guru’s stuff again! :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 21, 2008 12:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Couple things I see.

First, I agree that Jackson should get the start over Colbert, unless Shanny knows something we don’t about Colbert. I wouldn’t mind seeing Marshall stay at #2 either if Jackson can play the 1.
Also, one thing I’ve been thinking about is that Henry is prone to nagging injuries, which means we could find out if the Train can carry the mail. I know some have issues with Torain’s injury history and lack of speed. But, as I recall, TD had an injury history and wasn’t known for speed coming out of college. TD had good game speed and instincts. We could possibly have the same type of player in Torain. If Henry gets banged up, we may find out and that excites me as Torain is an intriguing prospect.
Another area that we may possibly get surprised at is safety. The way I understand it is that had it not been for his injury history, Barrett was the second highest rated safety in the draft, we may have a better player here than we realize, it wouldn’t shock me to see this kid work his way into the mix before the year is up. Great post HT, I like posts that fuel conversation like this one does.

PS- Are any of you guys planning to spend some time at training camp this year? I’ve never went to one and am contemplating going this year if time allows. I guess I’m wondering what time is best to go. Beginning, Middle or towards the end.

by Broncofan on May 18, 2008 10:41 AM MDT reply actions  

Good stuff as always BroncoFan!

Agree that the Train may surprise, as well as Barrett. I’m not so much excited about the idea that Barrett was nearly the second best SAF prospect in the draft, since the SAFs this year weren’t very exciting. But his raw abilities leave plenty of room for him to take off and become the starter that you predict he can become.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 18, 2008 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

st?

i see they avoided special teams. we drafted/signed some serious speed this year-williams, barret, and alridge. is royal expected to be the #1 kr and pr, and who do you feel will be the other kr? anyone have college experience there? andre hall, selvin young? i’m not crazy about martinez at pr here. in fact, i doubt he’ll make the team now. we have 2 kickers and 2 punters in camp now, so i guess the winners get the job there, pretty simple. but who do you like in the return game, other than royal?

by davecheffy on May 18, 2008 12:55 PM MDT reply actions  

They mention STs in terms of roster, but not depth.

However, they did order the roster to their liking, so let’s take a look.

TSN has Royal beating out both Martinez at punt return, and Hall at kick return.

They have Prater has our K, and Paulescu getting the start (with Baugher behind him).

In my opinion, KR and PR are very difficult to evaluate. Most of us fans look at history as the best measure. Speed, elusiveness, acceleration, and other factors only go so far. There is some kind of special talent that these guys have, and I think it has to do something with a combination of reflexes and the ability to change direction and burst into speed. It doesn’t always carry from college into the pros. A lot of it seems to me to be a quality that one has or doesn’t have.

The other thing that makes the determination hard (in my case) is that PRs are not the same skill set as KRs. I am not familiar with STs coaching, so I’m only guessing here. I imagine that PRs have less space to work in, and must be able to get through traffic. KRs have more space to work with, and longer to go in most cases. There is a reason that PRs and KRs are often different players on the same team, but I’m ignorant as to why.

In our case, Martinez has been the PR and Hall the KR. It seems that our speedy RB is considered good at long gains, while the WR is good in traffic, but that seems backwards to me. But like I said, it’s an area I know very little about. Royal is considered a PR expert prospect. If he is a rare prize (see Dante Hall) he may be useful as both a PR and KR. I’m sure he’ll get looks at both positions.

My hope is that he (as a #2 pick) is at least dominant as one type of returner, if not both. If he is a future prospect to take the slot receiving job when Stokely leaves, so much the better.

I’m not excited by our K or P, so our coverage and return guys need to be solid. I think they will be, given the starters being bumped down (Winborn, Webster) and the new talents coming in (J Williams). K and P is always a crap shoot, and you just have to get lucky to have some of the feet we’ve had at the position in the past. But I’m with Guru here. Elam is replaceable, and we’ll shake out at the position.

I’m thinking Royal has a good shot at PR, possibly KR. Hall will keep his job with the team by focusing on KR, and being in the loop if injuries arise. Martinez is going to be fighting for his job, and I agree he is in danger of not making the team (consider not only competition from Royal at WR, but also Colbert, Parker, and Jackson).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 18, 2008 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Skill Sets

hoosierteacher:

The other thing that makes the determination hard (in my case) is that PRs are not the same skill set as KRs. I am not familiar with STs coaching, so I’m only guessing here. I imagine that PRs have less space to work in, and must be able to get through traffic. KRs have more space to work with, and longer to go in most cases. There is a reason that PRs and KRs are often different players on the same team, but I’m ignorant as to why.

Very interesting point. I’m ignorant, too (of why PRs and KRs are often different players), but I’m not going to let that stop me. It seems to me that a good KR is somewhat like a one-cut RB, able to read blocks and then hit the hole. Remembering Hester from last year – and who doesn’t; it’s like a recurring bad dream – he was very decisive in his cuts. Your point is well-taken that a PR has less space to work in. More to the point, unlike the KR who gets a running start and can survey the blocking patterns ahead, the PR has to make people miss immediately in order to have a return of more than zero yards. Several years ago, in a game against K.C., one of their receivers, it might have been Hall, caught a pass in the flat. He juked this way and that, like he was being yanked on a string, as several Broncos, each trying for a big hit, flashed by and missed, then took off down the sideline for the score. I think that’s the skill set that differentiates the PR from the KR, the ability to avoid being tackled at the moment of the reception, with defenders coming full-bore and almost no time to react, and thus make positive yardage in a play that otherwise would have been stopped in its tracks. Thought: Maybe a dancer, not a one-cut runner, is more successful at this. Some players, like Hester and Hall, can succeed at both, but I suspect even then they’re more one type than the other. I see Hall as more of a PR, and Hester as more of a KR, from this perspective.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 18, 2008 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

The ONLY thing I can speak of with some kind of direct experience!

If there was one thing that I had some kind of talent in for football, it was kickoff returns (big emphasis on “had” lol!) On kickoff returns, there are three things that happen in rapid succession…then you’re off. First, you receive the kick: this is very important. :o) Second, you need to pick your lane IMMEDIATELY. Third…you run like a bat out of hell. It makes sense that a one-cut back with some speed would be a good KR: he’s already adept at taking the ball, looking up, then bursting forward as soon as he sees his lane.

There’s a good bit of direction change on a kickoff return, but most of it is fairly subtle; re-adjustments to holes, stuff like that. The biggest key (that I found) was this: there was NO time for thought. You’re going full-bore up the field, and the defenders are coming full speed at you. In the best returns I ever had, I end the play not knowing what had just happened: I started to run, then became aware of my surroundings afterwards. (rambling)

Punt returns ARE very different. You generally do not have that little bit of time to catch the ball and survey the field. There is never a problem receiving the ball on a kickoff…but punt returners need to be aware of their position, the proximity of defenders, and whether receiving the ball is a bad call in terms of field position and/or getting the snot knocked out of them (hence fair catches.) There is a lot more agility and quickness (which a receiver is more likely to have) needed to evade the first line of a punt defense.

Then there are the Devin Hesters, Dante Halls, and (hopefully!) Eddie Royals (although his first name doesn’t start with a ‘D’.) They are such explosive athletes with the “it” for reacting purely on instinct, that it doesn’t matter where you put them: they can fly, and they WILL make you miss, all at speeds that defy logic.

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 18, 2008 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Your comments

pretty much confirm my feelings. A KR will almost always (with the exception of Broncos returners early in the season last year) get around 20 yards, and every once in awhile break a big one. PRs are more hit and miss. A PR’s 10 yd average
might be made up of three returns for an average of 20 yds, and three in which he got stuffed for zero or negative yardage.
So the higher averages of some top PRs might not necessarily mean they do better than low-average PRs once they’ve escaped containment, but that they escape containment more often. Conversely, another kind of PR might not escape containment as often but be more likely to rip off a really big run when he did. And he might have a lower average, even though getting a lot of no gainers and an occasional TD might have a stronger positive impact than a lot of 10 to 12 yard returns. So average return yardage could conceivably be misleading for PRs. It would be interesting to take a number
of PRs and break out all the returns that make up their averages, and see how they compare.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 19, 2008 12:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think that I've...

...learned more about KR and PR between Spock and Disco than I did in my years of coaching!

STs is a weird stepchild to the other phases of the game in football culture. It’s a bad attitude, but I always felt I was losing coaching time when I lost a group of my kids to the STs coach for their training period. It is certainly critical to have an excellent STs group, since many games are won and lost by either close scores or by field position. But somehow our football culture doesn’t value the STs like we should.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 19, 2008 6:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Don't forget the

PATIENCE of a one cut runner, since a KR needs to let his blocks set up. Vision is important (Royal has EXCELLENT vision) since you need to be able to see the overall setup as it develops, and of course:

fearlessness. PRs need to be scared of NOTHING.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 21, 2008 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think Jack Williams

will be looked at as a returner as well.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 21, 2008 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

My Depth Chart.

QB - Cutler, Ramsey: wish we had someone with a bit more upside than Pat as the back-up, but he’ll do.
RB - Henry, Young, Torain: Travis will wear people down and Selvin will cut them up when they’re all mushy. Torain and Hall will battle to replace Young if he gets hurt again or enter into a three-RB rotation with him if Henry falters.
FB - I hope Hillis wins this job and Sapp settles in as his back up. I think Peyton’s versatility could lead to some real trickery on our part.
WR - Play Jackson as the #1, Marshall as the #2 with Colbert as his back-up and Stokely in the slot with Royal backing him up. If Darrell goes down, either Brandon would take over the #1 spot with their respective back-up elavated into starting.
TE - Graham and Scheff need to continue to improve on their weaknesses and become more complete players. If they can do that, they’d make us much more difficult to read and more explosive on offense. They’ll each get plenty of playing time, often on the field together.
OT - Clady at LT and Harris at RT, with the vet Pears to back the rookies up.
OG - Hamilton at LG and Kuper at RG, with Holland as the primary back-up.
OC - Nalen to start and Weigmann as his back-up.
OL Notes - Lichtensteiger would be an additional back-up along the interior and Kuper could always kick out to either tackle sport if necessary, with Holland stepping up to start at OG.
RDE - Start Doom and work Moss in. Jarvis is coming off a serious injury and Elvis has earned the label of starter, even if they split time rather evenly.
RDT - We should get our monies worth out of Robertson, but we also have to watch his snaps, so using his back-ups muchly is a must. Powell should get some snaps here, but let McKinley get his as well.
LDT - It’s time for Thomas to shine and I think he’ll be ready. Following him, I’d actually like to see Powell gets some cracks in. I’m excited about Carlton and I want to see just what he can do.
LDE - I’d like Crowder to get the start, especially with Ekuban coming back from a significant injury as well. I’d like to go with the upside here and let Engleberger battle for his time as merits.
WLB - DJ should be back to his Pro Bowl ways at his natural position and Winborn is a solid back-up slash special teamer.
MLB - I too have faith in Niko, but I wish we had a better back-up than Beck.
SLB - This is a make or break season for Boss and I believe he’ll do well. Webster as a beck-up slash special teamer should be more than fine.
CB - Champ and Dre are the obvious starters, with Paymah and Foxworth at nickel and dime respectively. Jack Williams should help on special teams.
FS - Abdullah did well when given the chance and, without anyone else to really take the job from him, he’ll start. Manuel will back him up and Barrett’s main contribution will be on special teams.
SS - I think Lynch “starts” if only because of the respect he has from his teammates, but McCree will factor in at least as much this season.

All in all, we have a fine team that could compete for a Wild Card in the AFC if everything goes right. We have the depth to endure some injuries, even to some key players, and the versatility to cause trouble for just about everyone in the league. We still lack depth a MLB and S, with the possible need for a starter that the latter. Other than that, our needs will be determined by the play on the field and we could simply stand to add the best playmakers available at position like RB and WR. Just my two cents…

Please check out my blog at http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/ , now redesigned and recommited!

by ejruiz on May 18, 2008 2:40 PM MDT reply actions  

The Colbert prediction causes this post to lose all credibility. lol

And I think we also have given up on Harris much too soon. The dude had an injury last season and was a ROOKIE. Let’s not get all impatient with him…no judgements until he is cut or plays a game. ;)

by Tim Lynch on May 19, 2008 9:14 AM MDT reply actions  

I concurr totally on Harris.

There is a reason we picked him as early as we did.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 19, 2008 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Somebody likes Colbert...

And it’s the head coach. When they first signed him, Shanny was comparing him to Eddie Mac. The other day, I was watching a Shanny interview, and he was comparing him to Rod Smith. I don’t know anything about the guy, but if the head coach likes him that much, I’d say he has a good chance to start.

by unkown on May 20, 2008 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Two top drawer guys

If Coach compares Colbert tho them, we could be in for a real treat.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 20, 2008 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

FLA Bronco fan

Are you serious? Scheff had somewhere around 50 receptions , 500 yds and 5 TDs. And he didn’t even start getting playing time untill mid season because of his foot.

Let me tell you why I like Scheff: He’s big, fast, smart and doesn’t drop balls. Anybody here know how his blocking is coming along?

N/a

by kwool79 on May 19, 2008 9:43 AM MDT reply actions  

His ability to block has never been an issue to my knowledge. It’s just that Graham is one, if not the elite, blocking TE in the NFL. Desmond Clark is another great blocker in the NFL. During the Indy game we ran numerous 2 TE sets in the first half to run the ball and to help neutralize their pass rush. Scheff is a solid receiving option out of that set. However, as it was stated earlier, we are a run-first team. Probably the first run-first team that uses the West Coast Offense. Unless HT can think of another? If not for Graham, Scheff could easily start and do well. For right now, he plays his role very well in our system. I know being the starter means something, but he is one of our biggest “second-string” contributers.

by Bronco Billy on May 19, 2008 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good question
Probably the first run-first team that uses the West Coast Offense. Unless HT can think of another?

The West Coast Offense, at its heart, is charged with using the pass to set up the run. Denver does this, even though they run more than throw. Denver’s misdirections and throws spread the field horizontaly, setting up the one cut runs that always (by definition) cut back towards the center of the field.

Denver really isn’t the first WCO team to primarily run the ball. Even currently, a little over half of the teams running the WCO still try to establish the run first. Proportionate to the failure of the team to run, the team passes to spread out the defense. They then try to re-establish the run. Both the WCO and the Spread Offenses, while named for their passing philosphies (WCO – pass to spread the field horizontaly to set up the run; Spread – spread the field for passes horiz and vert to minimize coverages) have run first variations.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 20, 2008 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, but I also understand (please correct me if I’m wrong) the WCO to use the passing game for high percentage passes to keep moving the ball upfield – similar to how a lot of teams try to use their running game.

As for WCO teams, can you think of another that has had our success with the running game? The 49ers with Craig are really the only ones that come to mind and they still couldn’t put up our numbers on the ground – not that they needed to.

by Bronco Billy on May 20, 2008 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are 100% correct.

As stated in the article I refer to, the idea of the WCO is definetly high percentage throws. You are very correct. However, while many teams rely on the passes to move down the field, many more teams will still try to establish the run. As far as having our success with the run, I would be hard pressed to give an example.

In the case of Denver, we combine a WCO philosophy in passing (and overall offense), with the very effective zone block / one cut run scheme for the running game. As you are aware, this scheme makes “average” RBs look like hall of famers. I would take our application of the WCO (in terms of running, as you point to) over any other team.

Great points BB!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 21, 2008 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

What about Larsen?

Jeff Goodman (or was it Jim?) was effusing about him. They need somebody to groom at MLB in case Niko doesn’t work out or gets injured, and Beck probably isn’t that guy. I say Spencer Larsen ends up the MLB back-up. Winborn can play there too.

And for my two cents, I like Hamza a lot. He seems to just keep getting better (wasn’t he on the practice squad not too long ago, and now he’s starting). Last year in training camp, Lynch was saying that he thought he was a special player, and has been grooming him for the last couple years.

by unkown on May 20, 2008 12:57 PM MDT reply actions  

Yea, but Shanny doesn't seem too high on Hamza.

I like Hamza too, but Shanny put him on the market for a very low draft pick(6th rounder I think) and not one team in the league picked him up…

by Tim Lynch on May 20, 2008 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Just saw this from an interview iwth Shanahan by a RMN reporter
When I asked him to name Koutouvides’ competitors, he mentioned veteran Nate Webster, who started on the strong side last season and is now back in the middle. He also mentioned Jamie Winborn, Jordan Beck and sixth-round draft choice Spencer Larsen as linebackers who could play the middle.

by MattR on May 20, 2008 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fullback?

Did I see they have plans for him atr fullback as well? He must be quite an athlete.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 20, 2008 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree and am really hoping Hillis can be that guy. I originally wanted us to take Coutu with the 7th round pick, but I definitely wasn’t complaining about Hillis.

by Bronco Billy on May 20, 2008 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe it was Shanny that mentioned trying him at FB right after the draft.

by Bronco Billy on May 20, 2008 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

First 8 days at FB, next 8 days at LB for Larsen

The player who thinks he can and the player who knows he can are two different players, which one are you???

by Broncofan on May 21, 2008 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

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