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Some interesting thoughts on Pats versus Broncos

Are you aware that Denver has a record of 5-1 against the Pats since the start of 2001? Not bad at all. Now throw in the thoughts of Mike Klis in his Denver Post article about the secrecy of the Denver Broncos training, and you might see more than a coincidence.

I had thought this post might be more of a fanshot at first, but I think there is an awful lot of food for thought here.

Here is a good thought on how well Graham did, and how well he might do:

He had 24 catches as a blocking tight end for the 7-9 Broncos in 2007, even though he essentially missed the final three games with a high ankle sprain.

"I feel real good," he said. "The offense is coming much easier to me this year. I don't have to stop and think about what I'm supposed to do like I did at this time last year. I'm much more relaxed and comfortable with the system. I think we're going to have a real good offense this year."

In fact, this is a decent article for the Post. With Williamson out of the picture, and with Klis still on board, I think we can expect better from the Denver Post now.

Any thoughts on Graham? Any thoughts on our chances against the Pats this year?

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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The one win was that intentional safety and late Brady drive no?

They barely got that one. It is funny how San Diego can’t handle the Pats and Denver can’t handle Indy but both teams have great success the other way.

I’m tired of spygate. I think a smart coach, instead of crying to the league, just waits until a key play and signals in bad info to be intercepted by the Pats and makes them look stupid. The teams that said “It looked like they knew every play we were going to run” should have tested their suspision with an adjustment.

I love seeing the Pats beat the Chargers. Don’t like the Pats, just love seeing the Chargers lose.

Did I tell you I’m sick of spygate? Maybe I’ll rattle on about it some more.

Or maybe not.

by HBBeough on May 27, 2008 4:57 PM MDT   0 recs

I think spygate was horrific...

...but even I’m getting tired of it. I’d like to see a little more punishment against the Pats. But still, kudos to Denver for avoiding the whole thing by being secretive.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 27, 2008 6:03 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Pats & Prayers

Sometimes in Pro Football, the abilities and talents of a specific team that are deemed superior to another, do not guarantee victory. We have all heard the quote “On any given Sunday”. Of course this means that any team can win a game against anyone on any given day.

But there is something else that haunts many NFL teams. We can only measure it by history or head to head record. It is the unarguable fact that many teams simply struggle when matched against another certain team. Often, the domination is a Division or Conference rival. Sometimes it’s a team that only plays a few times every decade, but the outcome is always the same with the same team winning most the time. Most football fans call it “Having another teams number”. Others will dismiss it as a dismal franchise that can’t overcome another no matter who’s in charge; Often a teams dominance is based on the players and coaches of a certain era or regime.

In the case of New England, overall Denver is 24-15 regular season and 2-0 post season over the Pats. Thats a 63% winning percentage all time against the Patriot Franchise. This record of course is over a span of 47 years. Not a big deal, but lets take away the AFL matchups. The Patriots dominated Denver 10-8 games prior to the Merger. In head to head between 1970 and 1977 they only played twice, each winning a game apiece. (I use 1977 as a measurable year because Denver became a more dominating Franchise after their first Superbowl. They were more competative and teams didn’t overlook the Broncos after 77.)

We see that since 1977, Denver has enjoyed a 15-4 record plus two playoff wins against the Pats: An 80% winning margine for Denver. The only Patriot wins after 77 came against Denver in 1980, 99, 2000, and 2003. Two of those wins under the Belichick regime.

Now lets look at recent history. Belichik vs Shanahan. They have matched up seven times between 2000 and 2006 (they did not play each other in 04 and 07): 6 regular season games and 1 playoff game. During this time, the Pats are 2-5 against the Broncos including the playoff loss to Denver in 2005 which equals a 71% winning record for Shanahan vs Belichik.

Both teams have changed considerably during those years. Denver had two QB’s in head to head vs NE; Griese was 2-1 vs the Pats and Plummer was 3-1 vs the Pats.
From the Patriot side, Bledsoe was 1-0 against Denver (2000) and Brady is 1-5 against Denver.

Now for some nuts and bolts numbers. Why is it that NE under the play of Tom Brady are the Pats only 1-5 against Denver? Looking at Tom Brady’s record since starting in NE he has an incredible number of 86-26 win loss record as a starter. Against the entire league he has a 76% win record. Pretty incredible numbers that he wins over 75% of his games. But what is up with Brady against Denver? Against Denver, Brady has only one win in six games: A 16% winning record. One of those losses was his first Playoff loss against Denver after winning 10 straight playoff games in his career.

So what does all this mean? How can we look at history to help us forecast the future? Remember the slogan, “on any given Sunday”, but in the case of the Pats under Brady there haven’t been many good Sundays. Why the domination of Denver?

Weak, or strong – here’s a few theories:

1) Denver simply has the Patriots number. They can’t adjust to Denver’s altitude on the road and they simply struggle against the Broncos no matter whos playing or coaching. It’s another Bean Town Curse and they will never dominate.

2) Denver simply had better teams in the 20th Century and Belichik has been outcoached by Shanahan. The Broncos have been a step ahead of the Patriots and Belichik has not been able to gain an advantage with defensive signal calling by the Broncos. Belichik simply can’t adjust to Shanahans changes and there is an understandable lack of confidence with Brady.

3) The Patriot organization is the best team of the new millenium, and they simply don’t care about beating Denver. They know they are the best and Denver has simply been lucky. Everybody knows that when NE plays Denver, it is the Pats that loses the games and never that Denver actually beats them.

4) Jimmy Hoffa was actually buried under the end zone at Foxborough dressed in a John Elway Jersey. The curse lives on (By the way, Elway was 11-0 all time against the Pats. He never lost)

Joking aside, I believe that even with the Pats coming off a 16-0 regular season, they will not do that again, and if any team has a chance at beating them in their own stadium, it will be the Denver Broncos. I’ve heard a few Denver fans circling the NE game saying “oh no”.

I’ll bet that a lot of Pat fans circled that game and said the same thing “Oh No – It’s Denver!”, we need to pray.

Your’e thoughts?

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on May 27, 2008 6:11 PM MDT   0 recs

That's a lot to chew on

But I wanted to quickly post that I think that the Brady win came against Danny Kanell, though maybe I’m remembering it wrong…

I think Klis is ont he right track, but tying it to spygate was unnecessary. There are always reasons for winning and losing, and most recently, Denver wins have happened because of Mike Shanahan, especially the NE wins.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on May 27, 2008 8:25 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Stats for this series...

On a side note: I gave my friend a John Lynch jersey for her birthday a few weeks after the Broncos destroyed the Pats in ‘06 on MNF. She ws estatic, but her boyfriend, a Pats fan, would not let her wear it in front of him. With the exception of the Giants (even before the Super Bowl), he hates the Broncos more than any other team.

After some research, it’s no mystery why he hates the Broncos so much. It probably started, as Diehard pointed out, with Elway going a perfect 11-0 against them in hs career. Shannon Sharpe calling the president in Gillette Stadium to request aid for the Pats probably didn’t help, either. Heck, the Broncos even have a winning record in years when the Pats make the Super Bowl (2-1). The start of the current, Tom Brady era versus the Broncos started horribly as well. Did you know that Brady’s first four INTs were thrown at Invesco?

Looking closer at the Tom Brady era, where HT originally pointed out that the Broncos are 5-1, shows that we just flat out beat them in most cases. Our recipe for success is no different than any other game: execute you game plan, keep their QB in check, take the other team off their game, make big plays, limit TO’s, and control the clock.

First let’s look at Brady’s sole win in ‘03. Brady played very well with a 108 passer rating. Even with Danny Kanell as our starting QB, we still managed the TOP (31:24) and scored 26 points. We held the Pats to 3-12 on 3rd downs and they committed 14 penalties.

Some notes from our victories:

2001: Brady throws 4 INTs, 57.1 rating. David Patten throws 5th INT
Big Plays #1: Rod Smith 65-yard TD rec
Big Plays #2: Denard Walker 39-yard INT return for TD

2002: Griese 104.5 rating; Brady 75.4 rating
NE poor execution: 3 / 12 on 3rd down, 3.2 yds / pass, 8 penalties for 83 yds., 179 net yards
179 net yards with 83 penalty yards doesn’t win many games!
Denver TOP: 35:40

2005 (regular season): Plummer 134.8 rating, Brady 79.9 rating
Den TOP 32:17
Big Play / Execution: Tatum Bell 68-yard run / Team avg 5.2 yds/rush

2005 Playoffs: Breaking NE’s winning streak for playoff games at 10.
Big Play #1: Bailey’s 100-yd INT return
Big play #2: Saurbrun’s forced fumble
NE Poor execution: Patriots 5 TOs, 3-11 on 3rd Down
Frustration: McGinest shoving Izzo during argument on sideline
Denver TOP: 31:48

2006 (MNF)
Frustration: Tom Brady looking like he wanted to cry and quit by half-time.
Big Play #1: Walker 83-yard TD rec
Big Play #2: Walker 32-yard TD rec
NE Poor Execution: 4/16 on 3rd Down, 2.4 yds / rush
Denver’s Defense totally dominated the first half, though the final stats don’t reflect this.
Den TOP 31:45

"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil

by Bronco Billy on May 27, 2008 10:42 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Bronco Billy hit it

You hit it on the head BB. I was happy to see the game stats you posted. I didn’t realize Kanell started that game in 03, yet the Pats only won by 4 points. After looking at the complete stats of the Brady games, it’s easy to see that good coaching and execution has been the recipe for success against New England. Controlling Time of Posession is the common stat.

I also believe that Spock has a good point about players that have to overcome the demons mentally to beat a team that they always lose against. The mental part of the game is important in winning and losing.

The same theory can work the opposite way; Take Payton Manning for instance: In recent years, Manning and the Colts have had the same dominance over Denver like Denver over NE. I believe that Manning has so much confidence against Denver, he isn’t challenged mentally that he can lose. He expects to beat Denver every time out and he does. Is it that the Colts win because they expect to, or that the Denver defense breaks down because they believe they can’t stop them. Interesting to say the least.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on May 28, 2008 2:15 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd like to add two words

Al WIlson I do not think we can overlook his contributions to getting the defense lined up and in the correct play – not only based on what was called, but on the look from the offense. I think it was the game against the Colts in 2002 that was a great cat and mouse game between college teammates Wilson and Peyton Manning.

(I will agree with your comments about the Colts only to a certain degree. In terms of close games that Indy won late, there is no doubt that Peyton has a ton of confidence that he can drive his team down the field in the last two minutes. But if you look at most of the playoff losses, Denver was very shorthanded in the secondary and never presented a challenge to Peyton. But with the current secondary depth, I think Denver matches up better versus Indy than against “power” teams like Jacksonville and SD)

by MattR on May 28, 2008 2:31 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Al Wilson

He was great. I noticed the same thing last year when Lynch was out of games, the D didn’t know where to go. This is definitely one of the greater intangibles that will show what type of impact K2 has on our defense that will never show up on a stats sheet.

"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil

by Bronco Billy on May 29, 2008 12:35 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Ahhh, I love seeing those stats.

Why not throw in the stats for the one loss as well, just to be balanced. I believe NE got lucky in that game as it is. New England has only beaten us once since 1983. lol

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
MHR's Bronco History

by Zappa on May 28, 2008 8:02 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Stats of our '03 loss to NE

Kanell 57.2 Rating Brady 108.0 Rating
Denver TOP 31:24
NE Big Play #1: Deion Branch 66-yd TD rec
NE Big Play #2: David Givens 48-d rec
NE Big Play #3: Bethel Johnson 63-yd kick return
Den Big Play: Deltha O’Neil 57-yd punt return for TD

"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil

by Bronco Billy on May 29, 2008 12:33 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Spygate Redux

I think the idea that the Pats have stumbled against the Broncos because they couldn’t steal their signals is nonsense. Spygate makes me think less highly of Belichick, who apparently leaves no corners uncut, but the whole thing has been way overblown. This no-wonder-we-lost-it-seemed-like-they-knew-what-we-were-going-to-do silliness is just too whiney. Winners win and losers make excuses. The Broncos have had recent success against the Patsies because we match up well and longterm succees because, possibly, once we won a number of times it started to get into their heads negatively and ours positively. A mental edge. Usually I like Klis but I think he was trying too hard this time.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 27, 2008 6:48 PM MDT   0 recs

Amen.

Definetely tried to hard…

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on May 28, 2008 2:09 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

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