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Running Backs - Help solve the mystery

Recently I did a FanPost about who the starters on the offensive line might be, and asked fellow members for their input. I'm going to continue my brief look at each position with the next depth chart mystery - A look at the RBs.

Sorry, no fancy diagram today. We're only looking at two positions (we'll include FBs in the discussion).

My projected starter is Henry. He led the League before his untimely injury last year, and he is the kind of power runner that is used to set up the speed runners and the pass game. He also has the support of Mike Shanahan for two strong "character reasons.

1. Shanahan was willing to take a fine to stand up for Henry during the false positive drug test fiasco. He believed in Henry, and Henry proved him right.

2. Henry was a class act, accepting a salary cut while fellow player Walker did the opposite by refusing the cut and defecting to the hated raiders.

After this pronouncement I admit to having little idea what Denver does. Denver has several ways they can go.

A) Keep in mind that UdFA Alridge and draft pick Torain "The Train" are perfect examples of late round or UdFAs that Denver brings in to become 1000 yard superstars.

B) Also keep in mind that Young and Hall are change up backs and won't carry a full load (that's Shanahan's view, and I agree with it). We had to use them after Henry's injuries, and they got hurt as a result.

C) Last, keep in mind that Henry (despite starting) will not be a lone starter. He will either have another back that shares carries (rotational), gives him a break here and there (spell), or comes in to take advantage of a battered defense (change-up).

As I see it, Henry gets the start and either Alridge or Train "rotate" with him for a one-two punch. Young and Hall are brought in for change-ups to kill a battered defense with speed (or perhaps Alridge). I predict Denver uses a combo of rotation and change-up, with little to no "spell".

What about the FBs? The big question is if new FB Hillis is really going to be used as a FB, or if he is yet another "diamond in the rough" RB for Denver. If he is to be a RB, bump him into the previous paragraphs where I discussed RBs!

But if he is to be a true FB, does he get the start or does he fight for a position with Sapp (who was given the seal of approval with an extension to his contract)? And where does this leave M. Bell? Did he really earn the fumblitis diagnosis fairly given how few carries he had last year and the timing of the key drop?

I'm really setting the table for everyone in MHRland. I don't have the answers here (but wait until we hit my beloved defense!) What I would like is your input. Who makes the cut, who gets cut, who starts, who rotates, who spells, who changes-up, who is in the FB chart?

I hope some of my thoughts are helpful guidelines, but don't feel constrained. Give me your thoughts on the positions, and any guidelines you would change!

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Hmm...

Until proven otherwise, Henry is the premier back, and therefore the starter. He gets the tough yards, and has decent speed to break of to a long one…

/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on May 3, 2008 11:20 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

I agree

On another note, I believe an MHR member coined the frase “Torain Train”, which I think we should stick with – it just has a rhythmic feel to it.

by Jeeeeens on May 3, 2008 2:21 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That would be me!

“Torain the Train”! Help me make it become the nickname of 2008!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 3, 2008 9:19 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

My thoughts:

Henry demonstrated a “team first” attitude by restructuring. I do believe that Shanahan is behind him, and (barring injury or some other fluky event), Henry is the “starter.” Torain was brought in for insurance (in case Henry is injured; he does have a history of that), and because the RB position in the NFL is not exactly a long-term thing. Henry gets the majority of the carries for Denver this year, with Torain (if he’s healthy) gets occasional spell duty, just to see what he has.

Young is the change-of-pace back, and I’d guess he gets around 30-35% of the carries. Young’s speed is just an awesome compliment to Henry’s pounding, and recent trends in the NFL show that a platoon of RBs with different styles is about as effective (and probably cheaper) than one elite back (LdT, Larry Johnson, etc.) I know little to nothing about Alridge, so I’ll assume that he plays a bigger part in ST than in the run game…but if there is any place in the NFL where a RB can be assured of a fair chance based only on performance, Denver is it!

The other RBs: I think Andre Hall may be the odd man out. He’s not quite the elusive back that Young is, so it would seem that his best bet for making the team is as kick returner. But if Alridge or Royal (or someone else) fills that role better…I think Hall is out. Not that he’s a bad RB, but if he’s not the best at a certain role, he’s out. Mike Bell…I love his story and his heart. But I think this training camp is his last shot at the NFL. He’ll have to show the coaching staff that he can do something that the other backs cannot…and I do not think he does. I’m guessing that both Hall and Bell are off the team. And I’ll be the first to wish both of them the best of luck!

On to FB. Cecil Sapp had a bit of an endorsement from Shanahan, and would have to be the favorite to break camp as the FB. He’s done whatever the coaches have asked of him, including being an okay FB. He’s been with the team, he knows the system, and most of the other FBs have been cut. Cecil the Diesel is in. However, I think that Hillis gets some spot duty as FB (along with other varied positions.) Hillis will most likely see most of his playing time on STs this year, but I’d bet the coaches are going to experiment with his abilities, seeing just where he makes the most impact. He’s a jack-of-all-trades, but master of none, so expect the coaches to spend a good bit of time working on all facets of his game.

I’m excited. This is a talented and hard-working group of backs, and most bring something different to the table each game. I’d bet that I get no more than 75% of my predictions right…but I’ll still enjoy watching it all shake out.

Thanks again, HT!!!

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 3, 2008 12:31 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Good thoughts all!

I think I agree with your projections. Good breakdowns!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 3, 2008 9:23 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I want to talk about Bell

I’m a sentimentalist and I empathized with him making the Broncos and fulfilling his dream of playing for his favorite team, but he caught on when the Broncos were thin at RB and I’m coloring him gone. I think the fumble hurt him badly and here’s why. If a player is trying to make the team as a rookie or is on the bubble as a veteran each shot on the field is his own private Super Bowl. It’s not just another play. He has to rise to the occasion, and in Shanny’s universe that means not fumbling, even if the play doesn’t gain an inch. I think in Shanahan’s mind he blew his big chance. It wasn’t just fumbling. It was fumbling on his first carry after having been consigned to oblivion, when not fumbling should have been paramount above all else. I feel for the kid, but he missed a chance at rdemption and in the Not For Long that’s often fatal.

The main thing is, we just have a lot of talent in the backfield right now, and with Shanahan’s surprising recent emphasis on having a true fullback it doesn’t leave much of a refuge for Bell. I’d be interested in your thinking on this, but I’m thinking that Shanahan wants a Howard Griffith plowing the road on short yardage situations. Once he decides to fix something he goes all out, and I think stabilizing the line and developing a true blocking fullback means he’s really serious about not struggling in short yardage situations this year. That’s the only way I can make sense of him not only drafting a fullback but considering making one of his defensive draftees into one. In Shanahan’s philosophy you control the ball with the run, you get the tough yards with the run, you put the game away with the run. It must have cut him to the quick that the Broncos weren’t really able to do that the last couple of years.

I don’t remember how many RBs we carried last year, but my thinking right now is Henry and Torain as the power backs, Young and Hall as the scatbacks, a stud blocker at fullback, and maybe a guy who can contribute as backup FB, ST, and maybe even LB. Right now the starting job is Henry’s to lose. He’s not just a battering ram. If he were a draftee we’d be extolling his combination of power and speed. I think a lot of people forget high fast he is in a straight line. He’s just not as shifty as Young, Hall, and Bell. As much as I like him I can’t see Bell cracking the lineup. I see him, Sapp, Larsen, Alridge and possibly Hall competing for the last roster spot. I think Alridge is competing with Young and Hall for two scatback positions, and Hillis, Sapp, Larsen and Bell for one, maybe two FB spots, in addition to Henry and Torain. A wild card consideration is that Alridge is also a kick returner, and will probably be one of the guys competing with Royal for that job.

I’m very curious about what you think Shanny has in mind and how you think the running back situation will sort itself out.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 3, 2008 12:39 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Spock
I’m very curious about what you think Shanny has in mind and how you think the running back situation will sort itself out.

To be honest, I think that both you and Disco_Stu have good thoughts on the positions. I have no idea how the position will sort out, and I was hoping to get the opinions of members. I feel much more comfortable with projections on the other side of the ball. Beyond Henry being the primary starter I only know that we have a lot of options, and some decent player is not going to make the cut.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 3, 2008 9:28 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Shanny has his most talent laden backfield

in Bronco history I think. Here is my depth chart…

HB:
Travis Henry
Young
Hall
Torain Train(No rook starts out anywhere but at the bottom)

FB:
Sapp
Hillis

bubble: Bell and Aldrige

by Zappa on May 3, 2008 9:32 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Spencer Larson Fullback? why did Shanny bring this up? any thoughts

by bod1x on May 4, 2008 4:33 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I addressed this

in the second paragraph of my “I want to talk about Bell” response above.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 4, 2008 7:23 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think it breaks down like this

RBs
Starter – Henry: he’ll get 18-22 carries a game, and will be the starter as long as he is healthy
Spell – Torain the Train (love the nickname): About 5 carries a game, he will work in more as the season goes with the other guys getting more reps at the start of the season.
Change up – Young: 7-9 touches a game (some runs, swing passes, dump offs, screens, etc) watch some Philly tapes and use Young like Westbrook
Rarely sees the field – Hall: maybe 1-2 touches a game, spell/injury back up for Young, possibly some return touches
Welcome to the Practice Squad rook – Alridge: I don’t think he sees the field this year barring a major injury to more than one of our RBs or unless he excels at Special Teams during camp/preseason (see TD Tokyo video on how to make the team in your first year)

FBs
Starter – Sapp: I think we’re more likely to see 2 & 3 TE sets than a FB on the field this year, but when we do, Sapp will be the guy
Spell – Hillis: Love his versatility, and because of that, we might see him on the field more than the starter. He’ll play some FB, but also play TE/H-back. I see him taking the starter role from Sapp the following year.
Off the team – Bell: Sorry Mike, loved you in the Indy game a couple of years ago, your 360 spin move reminded me of the TD, but it wasn’t enough. Not quite good enough as either a FB or RB and I don’t think we’re keeping more than 6 RB/FB on the 53 man roster this year.

by Darin H on May 4, 2008 11:39 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

This is why fantasy league players are confused about Denver RBs

Here is my prediction:

Henry 1100 yards (misses 5 games injured, gone in 2009)
Torain 600 yards (mostly at the end of the season)
Young 250 yards (with some game breakers)

Hillis won’t play until the end of the season and then will be involved in goalline plays and will catch a TD as a tackle-eligible.

But… There has been a true competition for this position since 2000 and Shanahan will put the guy he is most comfortable with in the spot. Unfortunately I think Mike Bell lost something from training camp 2006 and I don’t see him making the squad either—- which means he will probably start.

by HBBeough on May 4, 2008 5:46 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

I think Henry is the back at the top of the depth chart, but

I think Selvin Young will get close to half of the carries.

I’d bet that Young outgains Henry again, but I think it will be close. I think in a 3 WR set, Young’s far more dangerous, and in a 2 TE set, Henry’s far more dangerous.

I like the addition of Hillis, but I can’t imagine he’ll play much between the 20’s. I like that Denver took a Fullback who wants to play Fullback and understands the technique of playing fullback. The last few years, Denver was trying to get run-first guys to play a block-first postion. I think Denver is trying to get bigger bodies for the red zone, like Torian and Hillis. However, I can’t imagine Denver will have a fullback on the field as much as it has in the past few years, I don’t know how much PT Torian will get, but I’m sure we’ll try himout as a short yardage back even as a rookie.

by super7 on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Running backs

I agree the Henry is a ‘class act’ for taking a cut in pay, but don’t foget the ‘class act’ that came to his defense. Shanny would not have gone out on a limb if he did not want him back…Henry will start.

Talking Selvin Young: I am in Seahwk-land, don’t have cable, and I work every other Sunday. I read more about the Broncos than I see. I can’t remember which game but I walked in the dealerships’ lobby (to see how Denver was doing) and watched this Selvin Young take the ball around the 15 or 20, make a couple re-direction moves, run towards the goal, look like out of bounds was the course, suddenley change directions, and plow-dive through two defenders into the end-zone. Young may be a niffty-move-back but he is also a heart-for-the endzone-back. (I apologize for the run-on sentences.)

Henry starts…Selvin is the change-up.

Torain, if his foot heels, might have been the best steal of this draft,but then came Alridge. Torain’s nickname may be train but it should be pile-driver. I have seen him hit a pile like a sledge-hammer and carry half the defense three yards. What a Red-Zone dream. As to Alridge ( and I know little about him) somewhere I read that he averaged 10.1 YPC one year (correct me if I’m wrong) and 10.1 yards a carry either has to be a misprint or he is even more special than Torain.

Who knows what goes though Shanny’s brilliant mind, but I’ll take a wild guess.

Henry starts and Selvin is the change-up.

Torain (if his foot is healthy) backs up Henry, but comes in at the start of the season on first and goal from the four or closer.

Mike must be giddy with happy happy with what he has…and Shanny is clever. Don’t be astonished if, very early in the season, you see Sapp, Henry, and Alridge in the backfield on first-down. Teams will look at that and say, “What”?!!

by Mike Clark on May 4, 2008 6:21 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

You've come to the right place Mike.

Don’t have cable? Live far away from the Broncos’ broadcasting area?

No problem. We’ll get you hooked up for the season. E-mail me about a week before the first game. If you have a computer you can watch the telecasts at no cost.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 4, 2008 9:18 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

3 rb set

is that even legal? shanny sure is going to have options this year, but i don’t think he’s going to do anything crazy this season as far as formations go. but think of this: he has so many hybrid players now in the backfield, he SHOULD be dreaming up barely legal formations, like reeves used to with the receivers. how about hillis, aldridge, and young in the backfield? is we could get some of these guys in space with the ball, they should average serious yardage. we’ll have to see who makes the team(and where), before we figure out the best way to utilize them. i agree bell and hall are on the chopping block, but only if alridge, torain, and hillis make the team, no sure thing. i love bell as a short-yardage/changeup guy, he did score 8 td’s in limited duty not too long ago. but it appears he will be replaced if torain makes the team. larsen at fb further pares the fb/rb situation down if he earns a spot there. i’m going with:
rb- henry, young, torain, alridge
fb- sapp, hillis
either way, we should be deep and versatile in the backfield this season. yet another very interesting position battle coming up. could we start the preseason already, i can’t wait to see the finished roster

by davecheffy on May 4, 2008 7:57 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Dave,

I’m not who you are responding too, but yes, a legal formation can be formed with three RBs. Variations on the original T formation, as well as some of the “Heavy” formations use three RBs. Both WRs (or a WR and a TE) must be on the line of scrimmage for the formation to be legal.

Atlanta ran some of these with Vick at QB, and even GB will do this on some occasions.

I’m with you Dave. I like a “cute” formation here and there. But the three RB concept is one I don’t like. If you want misdirection you can do it like Denver does and not put in extra backs. And if you want good blocking you should really use a FB and one or two TEs, or just go goal line.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 4, 2008 9:33 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

God Bless you HT!!!

Please put me on to that video feed for Bronco games too! I live in Az & dish network won’t even let me get FSN rocky mntn? I would like ALL of you to know that IMHO This is the VERY BEST site on the web & youall make it so!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!! I’ll start chiming in more as time goes on. Thanks again for sharing your
( everybody ) tremendous knowledge & insight!!!!!

by Pmac54 on May 5, 2008 12:20 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

e-mail me just before the season as well.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 5, 2008 6:35 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I need in on this action as well

I live in KC area, and the only games I ever get to see are the ones against KC. It seems like everytime the Broncos are playing at a different time than KC they always broadcast teams to the east, and when they play at the same time as KC you can guess what they have on…...LOL

by Stuman on May 6, 2008 9:52 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

2 words....

Sunday Ticket

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

3 words

Stupid Condo Rules

by MattR on May 6, 2008 10:22 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That sucks!

I’m sure there is a sports bar there that caters to the Broncos.

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on May 6, 2008 10:42 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Finding the games is not a problem

But I’d rather be on my couch and I’d like to be able to Tivo the games. At least 2007 had a whole bunch of nationally televised games.

by MattR on May 6, 2008 10:58 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I am obsessed...I live in Raider/49er country...

without Sunday ticket I would never get my Bronco fix. Oh and by the way, tell your Condo association that the market says WE HAVE THE POWER, they should be kissin’ your butt crack for living in their development. lol What is with home owners associations? Do they not understand that people are looking to avoid them when moving places?

Anyways, I am going to try to record some clips from this years games onto my computer…if the technology isnt rigged to screw me over. If that is the case, then I will go old school and set my video camera on a platform and record the game ghetto style. :) ESPN and NFL Network don’t cover the Broncos enough for my liking…

by Zappa on May 8, 2008 5:28 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

i love the 2 te, ht

good point on the 3 rb set. i think what some of us are looking for here is a little innovation on the offensive side of the ball, since it appears we have a lot of speed and playmakers now, but not ideal size, still. it’s been a while since they did anything that blew me away, and most will agree that they can almost call the plays for the broncos before they run them, especially in the red zone. i’ll give you an example: 3rd and goal at the 2(2 runs up the gut have already failed). the call: qb rolls out right, passes to the te-also going right, who is double -covered because they have seen this play 50 times. i guess we want to do what we do well, but defenses seem to be all over it many times. perhaps the execution is poor, but i am taking several years into consideration here, with different personnel. we just look very predictable, have we tried everything? do you expect any new wrinkles? should we go 2 te even more? can we get a touchdown from inside the 5 on 3 tries? hopefully some of the new players can help us out with this.

i don’t know who you are responding to there(mike?), but i, too, would be interested in broncos telecasts on the computer, being in new jersey here. if you have any info on that, please let me know. and as always, great job on the posts. if only we could build a team as good as this website

by davecheffy on May 5, 2008 12:46 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

I think

our patched-up line more than bad play calling was the culprit in our red-zone difficulties last year. Once Nalen went out we didn’t have as strong an inside game. Normally two runs up the gut, or one, would have scored, and we wouldn’t be faced with a third and goal and no confidence that a third run would do the job. If our short-yardage running game was more of a threat, as it historically has been under Shanahan, a pass would be more effective because it wouldn’t be what we had to do after getting stuffed on successive runs. I think one of Shanny’s biggest priorities is fixing the short-yardage problem, and that’ll go a long way towards making the play calling look better.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 5, 2008 2:21 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

3-RB

I looked all over the place last night and there it was right in front of me (Mike). LOL

We’ll use a lot of 2 TE against two types of defenses:

1. Mostly against the 3-4, where the extra TE helps against blitzers from multiple directions,

2. Somewhat against teams using either C2 system (TEs are best positioned for quick receiving strikes in the seams, and with TEs on either side of the line you could exploit both sides and pull the defense’s zones out of position).

I think we improve dramaticly on short yardage and endzones, now that we have Henry back, have picked up another power runner, and picked up a FB. We also have better depth at WR.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 5, 2008 6:33 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Out of Town

I was out of contact with a computer (electricity for that matter) for awhile and returned to find a wealth of interesting comment on MHR. I am a little late piling on this topic but I think it is relevant. I absolutely love ht’s X and O analysis of football because it makes me a better fan. I want to inject a different perspective. .

In my opinion Coach Shanahan’s genius is displayed by his creative use of the talent he has rather than in player or skill evaluation to fit an existing scheme or philosophy. For an example I will cite Shannon Sharpe. Sharpe was a classic tweener. He was too slow for WR and too small for a classic TE. Coach Shanahan devised plays which would take advantage of his speed against LB and size against CB to create a HOF TE.

I see Coach doing the same type of thing with Hillis and Torain Train. I don’t know how or where they might line up but I see Denver exploiting their talents in a traditional formation, but being isolated against players who are either smaller or slower. This may not happen this year. One or both may end up on the practice squad for awhile, but from looking at some of the clips (I know these are just highlight reels) posted on the MHR it appears we have some players with character and unique skill sets.

My last thought on RB is do not underestimate Henry. I hope t oakland does on Sept. 8th.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 5, 2008 12:14 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Excellent analysis

The great coaches do just that; they scheme with the people that they have. I can’t even begin to imagine the work that goes into each week of game planning, and how each play is tweaked or newly created to use a player’s talents against the anticipated talents of the other team.

I can’t wait to see how our new talent is used. Of course, I am REALLY excited to see how our new defensive coordinator schemes and how our new additions do.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 5, 2008 9:12 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sharp was

Reeve’s draft pick…but I guess he had input from Shanny and Elway so it’s a wash…
My DC

RB
Henry
Young
Hall

FB
Sapp
Hillis

Shanny’s emphasis on FBs (which has been discussed) makes me think his experiment with the three TE set may be over. I’m thinking more of a two TE and one FB set with a true FB playing in the HB position. I think Shannahan believes the Red Zone problems he’s been having over the past 3 seasons is due to a lack of power from the ten-yard line in. Griffith was a true FB and his great lead blocking ability made the Red Zone offense much more efficient. You also have to factor in a less mobile QB and having that extra protection in the backfield is a huge plus. TEs just aren’t designed physically or mentally to be backfield players. Most of them look at themselves as linemen first and receivers second. Much easier to convert a FB to a TE mentality than vice versa.

Elway is in, Zimm is in but don't forget: Floyd Little, Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis

by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on May 6, 2008 1:15 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

T formation

I may be an idiot, in fact I know I am. I should with any kind of wisdom stop here—but idiots walk through pastures without looking. I like the T formation. Back in the late 30’s or early 40’s, I don’t know the year, Chicago beat Washington 70’something to 0 using the T formation. I admit that defense was the probable cause…but I still like the T formation. I realize that times and defenses have changed and that what seems to be old is just that…old. But the ‘Statue of Liberty’ is old and how often do you see a hook and lateral (or ladder) play. I am a Boise State fan and still get warm fuzzies. Not only that (dramatic pause) the NFL hasn’t really seen it for years. I may be crazy…wait a minute I am crazy…but I think you will see T formation, from Shanny and the Broncos, sometime this season.
HT thankyou…I will take you up on the offer on days I am not working and Denver is playing.

by Mike Clark on May 5, 2008 5:55 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Possibly

I certainly won’t deny the possibility of some T-formation plays. But I do feel that, if some T is used, it will be sparse and highly situational. Since we can reasonably assume that the T won’t be a staple set, they’ll only really have time to put in a few plays for it. They could only use it a few times before a scouting report gets filled and defenses find the right cues for it. For them to use it, I see these “if”s that must first be in place: the Broncos have the right offensive personnel on the field; the defense has the right (in their case, wrong) personnel on the field for that specific play; the defense has been “prepped” by previous playcalls that would increase their odds of misplaying a T; and the overarching risk/reward scenario is worth the gamble.

The T was primarily a trickery formation that matched up very well against defenses designed to stop a power-style Wing. With more of an emphasis on defensive balance, it’s a little less obvious how a T would be formationally advantageous. It might still be, but the situations would have to be more well-understood. My guess: a fake handoff with all 3 RBs going in different directions and a pass to a TE after an initial one-bump block. You’d pull the defense in tight, show a lot of run, and hope they overreact and lose the TE.

Oh, the year was 1940 and the score was 73-0. FWIW.

by hooper on May 5, 2008 8:57 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Mike Clark / Hooper

You guys are bringing “man tears” to my eyes! The T, the Wing, the ladder play… I love you guys!

Young fans never knew Elway, older fans may not remember Little, but how many of us can remember the classic formations and plays? (I’m not old enough to have seen any of the 1940s football, lest you think I’m that old!) I LOVE to watch the old films.

FWIW, I don’t think we run much T either (as Hooper points out). With Vick out, ATL will probably drop some of their heavy formations. I would LOVE to see the Wing, but I even discussed the Wing once with Coach Dan Reeves (he had just left ATL), and he said if there was one team in the NFL that had the personnel to run the scheme it was ATL, and they wouldn’t do it. He said the reason was the defenses today would tear it apart. That broke my heart. He said the system (whether used in a power or misdirection system) would be too unbalanced against modern defenses.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 5, 2008 9:25 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

T formation

hooper,: In this pass-happy new NFL, and thankyou for not calling me crazy…which I may be, the T formation has endless quick options that the Q-Back controls. I agree that it will not become a norm…and can’t. But with a good blocker, a very power back, and a very fast back (and keep in mind there is no rules as to how far apart they are) I think the T formation would have defenses wondering …’what’s up?’

by Mike Clark on May 5, 2008 9:38 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Exactly

The T could really mess with the heads of defenses. The irony is that the T was originally designed to freeze defenses (the direct snap to the QB was a novelty of the T), but a modern-day T would probably try to feature more power plays than standard NFL playbook. It may very well work with Denver and I’d love to see it if they can make it effective. With the sheer speed on the field, the misdirections could really draw defenders out of position.

ht,
Thanks. I find the old playbooks quite fascinating. When you didn’t have the luxury of pressbox-view defensive adjustments, the offenses really had some wild options available. I’d love to see the Wing too, but somebody would really have to study the whole thing out and figure out ways to overcome defensive adjustments to it. I think the biggest problem anymore is that the weakside edge rusher would be able to penetrate too quickly into the backfield and limit the number of viable plays. the Wing is a great set to run a wedge play…

by hooper on May 6, 2008 7:59 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

My belated thoughts

Denver will keep six backs total and I think they will expect to get special teams contributions from two of them (I am thinking more coverage units than return teams). I’ll start with the fullbacks since that is a bit easier. Sapp will start with Hillis as his backup. I think that as the year progresses, Hillis will get more time and will be used as more than a traditional FB.

At tailback, Henry is still the guy until someone knocks him off the perch. Torain could start the season as a goal line back before becoming Henry’s backup, a job that Selvin Young will have to start the season. Young will get time all year long as the change of pace guy. Anthony Alridge is probably practice squad bound which would leave Mike Bell and Andre Hall fighting for the final spot (probably the better ST player will get the spot)

That is my “safe” version of what will happen. Going out on a limb, Torain’s foot will be an issue and he will end up on the Physically Unable to Perform list. Hillis will be used as the power back to replace Torain while Alridge earns his chops on ST ala TD and gets Torain’s spot on the roster (and eventually his role as the backup RB). Hall and Bell fight it out for the last spot. When Torain comes off of PUP, he will take that last spot.

by MattR on May 6, 2008 10:36 AM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Lots of Torain Hype Here

The guy’s only a rookie and has had some troubles with his feet in the past. As much as I root for the guy and want to say he’s going to be great, I don’t want to overhype this “Train” back just yet.

Also, Hall had a return spot last season…if he can win the battle there, he’s got his spot. Although, I’m sure special teams COVERAGE will also be a huge factor in determining who makes it. Who can tackle? However, I think the return game may play a big part in who makes it or doesn’t in terms of who’s actually taking kicks back.

by phantom818 on May 6, 2008 11:18 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Many Happy Return(er)s

With Royal, Williams, and Alridge in the mix, it will be a quite a battle for return spots (and I’m happy about that!) So, after thinking about it…I agree, Phantom: the last couple RB spots will be decided by ST, but probably by who will perform in coverage and non-return roles.

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 6, 2008 11:27 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Amen

Blocking and tackling are just as important on ST as returning.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 6, 2008 11:31 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

At least

with all this added depth, Denver’s special teams should be a little better next season.

by phantom818 on May 6, 2008 11:36 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Don't forget

they’ll also have another year under ST coach O’Brien, who improved ST play noticeably last year with existing personnel. That gives us two reasons we’ll be better.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on May 6, 2008 12:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Rhodes and Alexander possibly coming in for a visit

I just read that the Broncos are thinking of bringing in Dominic Rhodes and Shaun Alexander in for visits. I dont know how i feel about either of these guys. I really think Shaun is way passed his prime, as for Rhodes he is a change of pace type back but much more durable than Selvin Young. Honestly if we were going to get a back from the Raiders i think i would rather wait till Lamont Jordan gets cut. He at least brings a power running style that Young or Hall could come in and change up the pace on a defense. What are your guys’ thoughts on this?

by Tdrizz3 on May 6, 2008 12:58 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs

Good thoughts!

Rhodes and Alexander are both good options in my book, and we have the cap room.

Consider oakland and Rhodes. It seems like a waste of time to pass up on an elite DT (in the draft) to replace Sapp and to draft a HB with so many good existing RBs. I think the salary cap cuts are going to start earlier than expected for oakland, and cutting Rhodes is an example. He would be a solid addition in Denver as a one-cut back. I don’t think INDY really wanted to see him go when he went to the raiders.

Alexander IS older, but would give the team an excellent rotation at RB and buy time (keep the team winning) until the re-building is complete. We would only need two good years. The fact that he is older is mitigated by the fact that he wouldn’t be an every down runner in Denver.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 6, 2008 1:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Rhodes > Alexander

I would rather bring in Rhodes, I think Alexander is pretty much done.

One thing I wonder about with oakland’s cap situation and the uncapped year, they could theoretically cut a bunch of the high cap # players in that year, take all the hit in the uncapped year and then start over yet again after. Would it work like that? Need to ask our resident capologist.

by Darin H on May 6, 2008 3:34 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

MattR would know much more about that.

It looks to me like Al Davis is hoping for, and banking on, a strike or uncapped year in ‘10. He’s spending money like mad that he doesn’t have in the out years. Since our own Pat Bowlen runs the committee responsible for player relations, I think Denver has a better grasp of what is going on.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 6, 2008 5:32 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I hate to sound morbid

but when I look at pics of Al, he isn’t doing well. I think he is trying to get in one more good season before he goes on to his reward. I don’t think Al looks like he will be with us in ‘10. The only strike he is hoping for is the Boatman taking him over the River Styx.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 7, 2008 2:20 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Morbid

I don’t know if this is true or not.

There’s something I read about al davis being a wicked emperor, and he wanted an apprentice so he kept trying to steal players from the Broncos. The most recent player to act poorly and get the boot was Walker, who quickly finished his transition to the darkside. There have been many in the past who followed the same behavior, including Bill “spit on the referee” Romo.

But there was another powerful guy, a teacher (or coach) of sorts named Shanahan that escaped from the emperor. I guess there was some light sabre duel or force lightening duel or something because, as you can see, the emperor was left badly disfigured.

Anyway, this coach mentored “The One” who would bring balance to the force. John Elway of course went to 5 SBs and won the last two.

History repeats itsself all of the time, and once again the horribly disfigured, Geritol popping emperor is trying to build his overpriced death star. Once again we’ve found “The One” in Cutler, and the future will be history once again.

Either that, or al davis is just one ugly dude and really has no excuse.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on May 7, 2008 9:29 AM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Damn

You made me spit coffee all over my keyboard. :)

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 7, 2008 12:39 PM MDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I agree

Great thoughts man! I really see denver having a strong rotation going this year at RB. I was one of the fans who wanted Stewart or Mendenhall in the draft, but all along i knew LT was the smart pick, so i hope we dont get another George Foster situation. But i really would not mind seeing Rhodes come in, Im starting to think that Shanny doesnt have much faith in Selvin staying healthy or carrying even somewhat of a big load.

by Tdrizz3 on May 6, 2008 1:15 PM MDT reply reply   0 recs