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MHR University - Modern 3-4 Defense Systems

MHR University Welcome to another edition of MHR University!

     Today we'll look at the modern systems run in the 3-4 defense. We'll also clear up some common misperceptions about the formation, as well as look at the strengths and weaknesses of each sytem, and prefered player types.

     Over the next couple of days I will be moving archived University posts into the MHR University section. This means that if you want to look up older editions, you need only go to the left panel on the main page and click "MHR University".

     Read the rest of the story below the fold...

Star-divide

What is the 3-4?

In the 3-4, there are three defensive linemen on the field (DLs).  We call the centermost DL a nose tackle (NT) and the other two defensive ends (DEs).

We also have 4 linebackers (LBs).  The centermost 2 are called inside linebackers (ILBs) and the outer two are called outside linebackers (OLBs).

In the 4-3 we call the LBs nicknames, based on position, from weakside to strong side "WILL, MIKE, SAM" (for strong, middle, weak).  But in the 3-4 they are named (in the same order weak to strong) JACK, WILL, MIKE, and SAM.

Advantages include -

  • It is easier to obtain quality LBs than qualtiy DLs, and thus easier to build a 3-4.
  • More "pure athletes" or on the field, since many would consider a LB to be more skilled than a DL.
  • Increased reaction time for LBs.  The LBs start further back than they would in a 4-3, so they have nearly .5 to a full second to read a play as it develops.
  • Puts more men in the short zones to disrupt passes.
  • Allows for a much larger play book, as LBs have more play uses than DLs.  This also means more flexibility for the defense.
  • Stops runs to the outside (wider spaced OLBs).

Disadvantages include -

  • It is not as effective against the inside running game as the 4-3, and most of the League is "run first" and runs the middle.
  • More often than not, a 3-4 can be more expensive to field (comparing the cost of LBs to DLs).

On first glance it would appear that there are more advantages, but this is offset by the glaring disadvantage against the run relative to the 4-3. 

So is the 3-4 a "coach driven" scheme, or is it based on personnel?

The truth is, any defensive coordinator can run a 4-3 or 3-4 indifferently.  While coaches have preferences, they more often defer to what they have available.  If the team could go either way, the coordinator is probably going with what he is more comfortable with.

What's better, the 3-4 or 4-3?

Don't get in the mind set of "better" when thinking about formations and systems.  They are different, and do different things.  While some formations and some systems are great match-ups against other formations or systems, the rule of thumb is that the team that executes their own program better than the other team executes theirs is going to prevail.

Do 3-4 teams have seperate systems than 4-3 teams?

Yes and no.  Some systems can be run regardless of system.  The "Cover Two" systems can be run in a 3-4, but none are currently.  The "Zone Blitz" system is a system run by both the Steelers and a few 4-3 teams. 

The "Bullough" variation of the "Fairbanks 3-4" is the system being used (most notably) to great effect by NE.  No team has returned to the original Fairbanks, and the classic 3-4 system is now just called "Fairbanks-Bullough".  It is strictly a 3-4 system, as is the "Phillips" 3-4.

What are the systems being used by today's 3-4s, and how do they work?

There are three systems being run out of the 3-4s.

  1. The Fairbanks-Bullough (we'll call it the Bullough).
  2. The Phillips
  3. The Lebeau Zone-Blitz

The Bullough

This system is what most people think of when they think of the 3-4.  It is based on 2-gap play  on the D-line.

The system was used in colleges for years before, but came to the pros in 1974 and was built to withstand professional offenses by Coach Fairbanks.  He coached Oklahoma (where the system was created in the 40s), and the Patriots.

Coach Bullough (who was a head coach for BUF but the defensive coordiantor for NE in the 70s) refined the system further.  It no longer looks like the collegiate 3-4 of the 40s and 50s (in which the 3-4 was close to the line, every player was a brute, and the team played mostly zone).

The NT is a 2 gap player who lines up at 0 or 1 technique.  The DEs will be aligned based on situation, play, and match-up.  All three players are typically bigger than in the other two systems.  They often plug up the OL to allow the LBs to make the big plays, and so they get little credit in the stats themselves.

One common tactic is to shift over or under (depending on the direction of the shift).  Most 4-3 do this on the DL on a few plays.  But in the 3-4 as run under the Bullough, the team will often "scissor", which means they shift the DLs one way, and the LBs another.

Here's a scissor:

Scissor_medium 

This gives the OL little time to react to a new formation.  Is the JACK LB going to "cheat forward" and play like a one gap DE, or is he going to zone?  Note how the NT can now draw double coverage from the Right Guard and the Right Tackle, and the Left End (The right most "X") is still there to cause problems for the Right Tackle.  The SAM LB is now in an ideal position to wrap around the line and take out the QB.

The confusion doesn't stop here.  The LBs can zone, man, or blitz.  That's three things that each of four LBs can do.  Do the math to try to predict the number of variations.  Then, before patting yourself on the back, consider that each of those actions have further variations.  Man - which man?  Zone - zone where?  Blitz - through which lane?

Despite the fact that the Bullough can be confusing, the system relies on a lot of "bend; don't break" thinking.  The system will often give up short yards in the run, and blitzes are not common.  The idea is that the longer the offense is on the clock, the longer it takes them to score, and the more plays the offense risks an interception, fumble, or a fourth down.

The "Phillips" 

This system is not what people think of when they think of the 3-4, because the original 3-4 was/is strictly a 2-gap system. 

In fact, look at the Denver "Orange Crush Defense" of the late 70's.  It was run by Red Miller, and one of his assistants at the time was Coach Belichick.  Belichick ended up in NE as we all know, while Fairbanks returned to college coaching in Colorado.  Denver fans would thus be more likely than many fans to think of the 3-4 in terms of 2 gap, but you can still read the mistaken notion in many sports sites and publications.

The Phillips is named after "Bum Phillips", father of DAL head coach Wade Phillips, who formerly coached the Broncos as both a head coach and defensive coordinator.  Bum learned under Paul "Bear" Bryant at A&M and had coached high school football well enough to break into the college ranks (not a common route).  He was a defensive coordinator in SD, then in HOU (that's the Oilers for you young folks).  He later was a head coach in HOU and later for NO.

Phillips was an innovator who turned the 3-4 upside down.  His system is one-gap.  The DL penetrates, and is charged with constant harrasment of the QB.  The LBs are typically fast, and at least one of them will blitz on any given play.

The reason for the near constant 1-LB blitz is to account for the fact that the outnumbered DL is also relatively undersized and only one-gapping.  However, the adjustments work out well.  The OL never knows who the blitzer will be, or where he will come from.  The Phillips is more aggressive that the Bullough.  The school of thought for the Phillips 3-4 is the need to pressure against the QB to stop the pass threat, and this is done by varying who the "fourth rusher" (who is really a blitzer) is.

Add another blitzer in here and there, and the speedy/aggressive Phillips system is a threat to QBs, and attempts to get turnovers by slashing the time that a QB has to make decisions.

This is the system of choice for DAL, but also SD.

It is not the ideal system for SD in one sense.  Denver (king of the offensive "zone block " system for runs) and oakland (newly switched to the zone block) are built to run over the 1 gap defenses, and they share the division with SD.  SD adjusts for this by:

  • Relying on a high tempo offense featuring LT, Gates, and Chambers to dictate games,
  • Backing up the LBs to give them more reactionary distance, and
  • Shooting for a better record against the Chiefs (2 games) and the other 10 games out of division. 

The Lebeau zone blitz

Attack, Attack, Attack.

The Zone Blitz is very nasty thing to deal with.  In terms of player types, one can vary the NT type and even the DEs, but 1 gap speed DEs are much more common.

The zone blitz play (also know as a zone fire play) has been around for ages.  Dick Lebeau took the play and turned it into a full system for Pittsburgh in the early 90's.  He tried his hand at head coaching and being a coordinator elsewhere, but with little success.  He doesn't seem to be a good manager, and isn't great at adopting to the existing systems of other teams.  What Lebeau is know for it two things.  His players love him (they play hard for him), and he is an excellent theoretician who develops elaborate plays with many twists.

The idea is that the different DLs will often drop back into coverage, while several linebackers (and even defensive backs) will blitz.  The OL can't brace themselves, because if they do they will likely brace for the wrong assault.  This is the one defense that prides itsself on turning the tables - the defensive line and the LBs hit the OL hard and often and try to wear down the other side.

CBs most often jam or jack the WRs , then either drop into zone or blitz.  SAFs either zone or blitz (a safety blitz is called a "monster"), the LBs blitz most often, and sometimes zone, the DL either rushes or ends up in zone.  It's a very fun defense to watch.

This defense tries to stop the run by penetrating the OL and disrupting the offense's backfield.  They stop the pass by targetting the QB with heavy blitz packages.

Here's an example of a play:

Zoneblitzplay_medium 

The CBs will jam then zone.  The FS goes deep center zone.  The NT takes his left A-Gap and tries to draw double coverage.  The R-DE takes a zone typically occupied by the JACK LB, while the L-DE zones left to watch for the screen (note that screens are not effective against zone blitz schemes).  The SS gets sent on a monster blitz, the JACK and SAM blitz the outside, the WILL blitzes the right B-Gap, the MIKE the left B-Gap (keep in mind that "left" and "right" are from the defense's view when talking about the defense).

It looks like a good enough play, but here's the catch.  Look at the diagram again and look at the gaps.  It is reasonable to assume that half of the offensive linemen are firing out of their stances and blocking someone who isn't there.  They never know if the DL is coming or not.  Whenever they guess wrong they get physically punished, and probably leave a trail to the QB in the meantime.

The zone blitz is very effective against screen passes, wreaks havoc against check offs by QBs (because the zones can't be anticipated, nor can the rush), and is the only major defensive scheme that is predicated on wearing down the OL instead of the OL wearing down the DL.  FOr these reasons, the timing system used by Peyton Manning of the Colts can face more troubles here than in many other systems.

There is one glaring weakness.  You drop a DL into a zone and the blitz doesn't hurry the QB and the QB has a quick-realease for an arm... well your defensive lineman isn't probably going to match a WR or TE going for a reception, is he?

OK, the 3-4 systems sound cool.  How are they stopped?

There are many traits shared by the systems that make them vulnerable.  Of course a coach makes adjustments based on personnel and film, but here are the common, over arching approaches offenses take.

  1. Two TE sets - the 3-4 killer.  Take out the FB and add a second TE.  The common outside blitzes by the Phillips and the Lebeau are rendered less effective.  This is the most common approach, and great blockers like DEN TE Graham are perfect for this.
  2. Run the ball, run it up the middle, and run it with power.
  3. Skip the sceens and use both the FB and HB as pass blockers.  Vary the TE frequently between pass blocking and receiving (throw some confusion back at the 3-4).  Keep passes up the sideline, where you don't burn the clock so much, and where the zones are less frequent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope you've picked up a little about the 3-4s.  A lot of teams run the formation, and teams can start running it with little notice (like, right at the start of the season).  Keep in mind that all 4-3 teams have a few plays they'll run with a 3-4 here and there.  3-4 teams also frequently disguise plays by lining up in a 4-3 looking formation where "extra DL" is either going to play like a DL, or play like a LB in a shifted 3-4 (this is pretty common).

As always, please feel free to ask questions in the comments section about the 3-4, or any other football related questions.  If I can't help you, we have the sharpest members on the internet to help.  No question is too simple either.

Next week I'll have an article about youth coaching, from city league grade schoolers to middle school to high school.

Take care!

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Great post HT. I've always been curious about our

old 3-4 system. I desire a return to the Orange Crush…I dont like watching our team get run over by “whiny cry-a-lot” LT.

by Tim Lynch on May 7, 2008 5:42 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

We kept Mr. LT in check for years.

We kept him under 100 yards a game for 4 or 5 years. It’s only the past two season’s that we stunk it up. Like I said, it’s the quality of our players that is the problem not our system.

Although the players and the system have to fit each other.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on May 7, 2008 6:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great job as always.

I really like reading your stuff. it’s like getting a good football book, only it’s free.

I just want to make one small comment. While you said Denver’s zone-blocking is a 1-gap killer, which should be bad news for SD … well it really doesn’t seem to matter, does it? It’s about quality players and execution before anything… then again, there are games like Boise vs Oklahoma or Appalachian St vs Michigan. And Shanny’s time out in that first Oakland game was a pure example.

It would be great if you could somehow come up with a coaching vs players explanation that makes sense.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on May 7, 2008 5:59 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I wrote something to that effect, but maybe I didn't do a great job of playing it out.
While some formations and some systems are great match-ups against other formations or systems, the rule of thumb is that the team that executes their own program better than the other team executes their system is going to prevail.

It’s a combination of coaching, players, systems, execution, even crowd noise and weather.

I like sailboat racing. What I love about the America’s Cup races is that each team brings different variables to the table. One team has the better engineers, so they have the fastest boat. One team has a better tactician, so they know when to tack or which types of sails to use. One team has better sailors, and they get the sails changed quicker. One team has a better skipper, and he knows what to do when.

Football is the same way. The Zone Block can cause a lot of problems for 1 gappers that slant, but the other team may have better players. The first team may have better coaching, the second team may have better scouts in the front office. One team has a better strength and conditioning program, the other team may have altitude or a louder fan base. It’s such a team effort, and the players are a huge part, but not the entire part, of the equation.

Schemes and formations play a role, but not in a vacuum.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 6:38 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get that part, but...

... the hard question is that what is the minimum & maximum effect that coaching/scheme/personnel have on a team?

As an engineer, every time I see a problem I try to parameterize it. Once most equations/relationships are known, I optimize the damn thing.

I look at life (including football) the same way. How can we optimize the thing given certain boundaries? These boundaries can be salary cap or draft picks, or they can be cost and manufacturing stuff. It’s all the same once you apply math.

So what I really want is to quantize the whole relationship and learn the trade offs in a more system oriented way.

I probably sound like a geek.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on May 7, 2008 8:23 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your basically looking for the

Football version of a GUT or TOE.

I would go into it the same way that physicists do. Reduce the system to the smallest number of variables first, by listing out everything that is relevant, then applying unit-reduction to combine like concepts until you get a manageable number that can be held all at once in your conceptual awareness. As an equation I am betting it would be a beautiful thing, but very abstract.

If I have learned anything at MHR (thanks, btw, HT!) it is that proffessional football is a unique and beautifully complex integration of skills and virtues, combining to form a very entertaining spectacle. A lot of the difficulty that comes in the quantizing you are speaking of comes from the nature of growth and change within the units in the system itself. Players learn new things, or perfect old things or get injured or have character flaws, and this throws the equations out the window. And the equations probably wouldn’t be very easy either, for me at least. :( The changing players (units) and conditions (variables) would create equations that describe what happens above and below a curve (and a compound curve at that). Sounds like calculus to me. Yuk.

I think at best you will be able to describe a point on the curve (basically an analysis of a particular time and incarnation of the team/coach/scheme/opponent. While a useful tool, there are potentially an infinite number of points to describe, so optimizing it would be tough.

Or, maybe I’m reading more into it than you are meaning. :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 8, 2008 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...

...and don’t beat me up you engineer and physics guys, a lot of football can be looked at scientificaly but also in an artistic manner. I brought this up in the very first University post, “Defensive Theory”.

Not to compare myself to Captain Kirk (and I’m not a trekkie), but he had a lot of knowledge from his training and experience, but he seemed to be a guy that went with his gut. I imagine I’ve seen an offense and all of my thoughts are screaming one thing, but my “gut” (perhaps based on a visable variable on the other team that I couldn’t consciously notice) are screaming something else. In other words, perhaps it takes a little Spock and a little Kirk to make a coach. (There’s a midget joke in there somewhere).

Perhaps physicists get to a point in their calculations where the formula becomes something beautiful too. I like the Xs and Os, but to see them played out at the pro level is pleasing in a way that is hard for me describe. I guess it’s the clash of so many variables at once.

Or perhaps I’m an old football coach that is trying to keep up with guys talking about GUT, TOE, compound curves, and other creepy things!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 8, 2008 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Zap, thanks Amir

It’s a small effort to write some of these posts to have the privledge to talk with you guys and read your stuff as well.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 6:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't thank you enough

These MHR University posts are excellent. I know enough now to know that I really don’t know squat, but I know a lot more than before I read the post.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 7, 2008 6:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

We're in the same boat.
I know enough now to know that I really don’t know squat.

The more I learned about football the deeper the game seemed to get. I like to think I know about the game, but whenever I got to go to some college and pro taught seminars, I realized just how much more there is to the game that I’ll never know.

Thanks for the kind words.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great work

As usual, HT teaches about stuff I didn’t previously know. You’re a great asset to the MHR community. I’ve never heard of a Jack linebacker before, as a guy who grew up watching football in the extremely 4-3 heavy 90s. I did hear John Madden talk once about the penetrating 1-gap style of the Chargers’ 3-4 scheme, and how Dallas had adopted those principles with the hiring of Wade Phillips, but he didn’t really make the connection to Bum Phillips as the original father of the idea. Bum is one of my all-time favorites to see on NFL Films, the guy just had a great, entertaining personality. This is the kind of expert (as opposed to so-called national media “expert”) content that any fan base would love to have, and I only hope the fans of other teams are as lucky as we are in that respect.

"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS

by Ted Bartlett on May 7, 2008 6:47 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you Ted!

Coming from the record holding “11 recs” champion of MHR fanposting, that means a lot! I can tell by some of what you’ve written here and there that you have much more than a passing knowledge of the game, and I look forward to more of your posts.

And you are right about Bum. He was a colorful character with a lot of great quotes and a great attitude to match. If memory serves me right, he used to wear a cowboy hat on the sidelines, but removed his hat in domes because “his momma taught him right”. Great man.

(A little sarcasm here, but not much)...

Unfortunately the fans of other teams are not as lucky as we are Ted. We have a pretty good group of members here. Besides me (and all I ever did was coach some HS ball), we have a capologist (I won’t mention MattR by name), an attorney, and a team historian amongst our membership. And of course, right at the top we have Guru, who not only knows more about sports in general than anyone I know, but manages to get interviews for MHR and MHR Radio with Denver players and front office personnel. But best of all we have the smartest, classiest, and friendliest members of any blog in any field.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just an idea

Would it be feasable to line up in a traditional 4-3 with Thomas at DT and Moss at DE. Then shift to a 3-4 with Thomas (or Robertson) taking the NT position and Moss becoming a really tall Will? Perhaps that could confuse Phyllis or Jamarcus.

Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of our own mind. - Emerson

by firstfan on May 7, 2008 6:50 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Mostly no. But you get extra credit points for good thinking.

We are closer to a 3-4 than a lot of people might imagine, and you bring up a solid point.

Consider for a moment that we have a lot of depth at DE. We also have a good group of LBs, but we now also have depth at the position. We have the LBs and DEs to play 3-4 right now. The missing piece is a solid NT. Thomas hasn’t proven he is anything more than a rotational DT (but he hasn’t even played a full year yet and is improving, so I don’t hold it against him). DRob just cam from the Jets 3-4, where he wasn’t considered a good fit.

HOWEVER, you still get points for solid thinking. I’m reasonably certain that the Broncos will do exactly what you predict on a few plays this year. Denver always manages to throw in a few 3-4 plays that have been custom designed for certain opponents under certain situations well in advance of the game.

You are on your way to being a coach my man!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would it be

preferable to zone-blitz out of a 4-3 in this case? Rather than give the OL a quick glimpse of what you plan to do, line up as a 4-3, perhaps shift the DL a bit…then drop Moss back into zone, and blitz one of the LBs (DJ, perhaps.) Is there a benefit to be gained by actually lining up (or shifting pre-snap) into a 3-4 formation, as opposed to dropping the DE post-snap?

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 7, 2008 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can go either way Disco.

In fact, one of the systems I’m predicting we might look at is a 4-3 zone blitz. The base would look like this:

This is only the base play. The actual plays run would look nothing like it, but you would still have our fast DEs (like Moss and Doom) with the ability to hold their own in zone. We have the people to run the system out of a 4-3.

And there’s something strange about the title to my comment “You can go either way Disco”.

I don’t know if I’m thinking about “You can go your own way” ala Feetwood Mac, or… wait! I’ve got it!

“You can blitz if you want to,
You can leave your zone behind.
‘Cause if your team can’t blitz
and if they can’t blitz well they’re
no friends of mine”

That must be the Strong Safety Dance.

If you young folks think I’ve lost my head you may be right. Then again, maybe you just don’t get it. : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may be young

but come on! A Men Without Hats refernece remake thing? SERIOUSLY? I loved 80’s music for a good long time in my life, still kinda do… but I can’t say I’d ever re-write the Saftey Dance! You must really have lost your head.

"I could never quite get the hang of Thursdays..."

by FlaBroncoFan on May 7, 2008 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I knew what that picture was supposed to be of. : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 9, 2008 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Late reply

But I like it! Then again, I’m a bit blitz-happy. :o)

And there is nothing wrong with losing one’s head. As long as you pick it up later, since it presents a tripping hazard for others.

~Uffdah

by Disco_Stu on May 9, 2008 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post again HT

And you’re right – there are a few times in which a 3-4 is schemed in advance. Firstfan’s post also reminded me of the Indy game this past year. While it certainly wasn’t a conventional 3-4 (seemed more like a 3-3 with a rover [Moss] around the LOS) Denver did abandon the usual 4-3 in order to try to confuse Manning and to get more pressure. They did this all game long- not just in nickle, dime, or quarter.

"The angel is no more than the shark well-governed." -Herman Melville

by jadunn on May 7, 2008 7:13 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good call jadunn

I could have also mentioned that Denver likes two kind of nickle packages, one of which is a strong nickle, and one which looks like a 3-4 (it has 3 down linemen, 3 LBs, 2 SAFs, and 3 CBs) called a 3-3-5. More on that somewhere down the line….

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:43 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

3-3-5!

Just like West Vriginia playsed under Rich Rodriguez, right? I watched a lot of WVU, as they were the first football team of any kind that I liked (not sure why though, I’ve never even traveled out of my home state…)

"I could never quite get the hang of Thursdays..."

by FlaBroncoFan on May 7, 2008 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got me there!

I don’t get to watch much college football, and I’m even lucky to catch the pro games. I don’t honestly know about if WVU ran/runs it.

The 3-3-5 is an excellent nickle package when you think the other team is going to throw (maybe they are 3 WR set), and you are not concerned enough about the run to play a standard nickle.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW...

You can get a nice pass rush off the edges from the LBs in the good old 3-3-5 at times :)

by phantom818 on May 8, 2008 6:38 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once again

I’ve said this before….HT you are special…and your knowledge of football is special. Thanks once again for the great post.

by Mike Clark on May 7, 2008 7:34 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope you don't mean special like in "special teams"!

Thanks again Mike. The time I spend typing is more than offset by the kind words I get from members like you.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 7:49 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you guys know...

... that some of the other football site on SB nation link here to HT’s university posts? It’s a huge complement to the quality and value of HT’s work that the admins at the Chiefs or Vikings blog put up links to MHR University stuff.

Just wanted to throw that in there. And it’s sometimes nice to keep an eye on the enemy to see what they are up to ;)

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on May 7, 2008 8:29 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

A few other sites are also...

....kind enough to e-mail with questions, both members and directors. I’m happy to respond, and will always do so. But I want to encourage members from other sites to feel free to post comments or questions here in the comments threads too. With the move to MHR 2.0 my e-mail box gets a LOT of questions from around SBN.

Thanks again for the kind words Amir.

Also, a reminder to our friends from other sites that old MHR University posts will be archived into the MHR University section by the end of this week. If you need any material from any of the articles I only ask that you credit Milehighreport for the work.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I fill your inbox every now and again...

And for that, I thank you.

-Chris

Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!

by River City Rage on May 8, 2008 11:21 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You sir are always very welcome.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 9, 2008 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

nt

you hit it right on the head, ht. the real key to the 3-4 is the nt. the great ones are rare, and expensive. that is the reason we have d-rob now, and the jets just paid jenkins a zillion bucks to be their nt, which he really isn’t suited for, in my opinion. without jamal williams, san diego’s d is a lot less worriesome to me. if he could eat up 2 guys, and the bigger d-ends eat up 1 each, there’s only 1 ol left to engage before there is a hole, and if he gets beat by the faster lb/saf, look out. that’s only rushing 4, mind you. i remember denver had a guy named greg kragen that used to do this for us. very underrated player, lined up all over the place, almost like mecklenburg. i don’t think we have the size at de for this scheme, but the ‘backers we have now could be up to the task. i just see our d-line, as is, getting run over with 3 undersized(for the 3-4) linemen. also, the dt’s moving outside wouldn’t be a great fit there, either. once again, the d-line is the problem. i would love to see the 3-4 back in denver, but shanny apparently doesn’t like it. the weakness of the 3-4 is the inside running game, yet we struggle running against 3-4’s more than anything, as do most teams. do you consider pitt., s.d., n.e., dallas,... soft up the middle, because those teams are very hard to run on. why is that? is the nt the answer to that also, and if not, why aren’t we doing this? any thoughts?

by davecheffy on May 7, 2008 8:57 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff as always Dave.
the weakness of the 3-4 is the inside running game, yet we struggle running against 3-4’s more than anything, as do most teams. do you consider pitt., s.d., n.e., dallas,... soft up the middle, because those teams are very hard to run on. why is that?

is the nt the answer to that also, and if not, why aren’t we doing this? any thoughts?

Teams can struggle against 3-4 for a variety of reasons. Running up the gut against a Bullough 3-4 is tougher because it is a more balanced system between run and pass. Later versions (Phillips and Lebuau systems) are more “anti-pass”. This is much like the trend in the cover-two system, where the original was more balanced, but the recent Tampa-Two variant is more geared to stopping the pass. (See my article last week).

As mentioned by other commentors, personnel are an important part of any scheme. While the Phillips is weak in structure versus the run, an elite LB (or two) paired with an elite DL (or two) can make up the difference. SD has had some players on defense that do well here. NE is also a team blessed with a lot of playmakers.

Third, consider Denver. The zone block is a great match over the Phillips 3-4 for running, but the Phillips has a few advantages too. Denver is unable to take advantage of some of the misdirection plays and wide runs by speed RBs because of the wide set OLBs. The gut run still works for Denver, IF they utilize a power runner. Henry was our power runner, and not available much throughout the season due to injury. Against PITT, Denver did well despite the disadvantage of PITT scheming against the screens Jay would have loved to use. Despite NE’s dominance against most opponents, Denver has actually had a good record against them recently.

Why aren’t we doing the 3-4 if the NT is the difference? We don’t have the right kind of player to be a NT. Even if we did we would probably want him to anchor an existing 4-3. Most of us expected Denver to be more aggressive in pursuing a DT or two. When they didn’t go all out for one, it signaled that Denver is building the team across the board and not going after major changes in formation. Our DT additions also look more DTs than NTs.

Thanks for the thoughts and questions!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just a quick note to readers...

Guru has added a MHR University section in the left panel of the main page. I’ve gone ahead and put in a few hours re-classifying the old MHR University articles from MHR 1.0 “news” to the new MHR 2.0 “MHR University” section so that you can read them all.

Click on “MHR University” under “sections” to read previous articles like the one you’ve just read.

And please feel free to request a topic for a future MHR University. I’m not doing my job if I’m not writing about the questions you want explored. Thanks again for all of the compliments you folks give me. It makes the work very much worth the effort.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 7, 2008 10:23 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for all your time doing this HT

I know that you know that we know that you know…

Errrm…what I was going to say was that you can’t hear Thanks enough times.

Thanks.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on May 8, 2008 7:55 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also express gratitude.

HT, you are one of the reasons this site is not like any other. The increase in knowledge makes all of us better fans. Thank you.

Human character does evermore publish itself.

by firstfan on May 8, 2008 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aw shucks you guys!

Thanks to both of you. Very much.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 8, 2008 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

A couple of basic questions

What is the difference between a rusher and a blitzer? Rusher = DE, Blitzer = LB/DB?

Sometimes i’ve a player referred to as the “nose guard” – just fancy-talk for NT or?

Do teams flex between the 3-4 and 4-3 during games?

Thats all for now… for now…

And, hey – great read! The football-fever has caught fire among my friends, and I’m redirecting all of my ‘em to your posts. Excellent!

Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!

by Claus Vestergaard on May 8, 2008 7:53 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good questions all!

Difference between a pass rusher (any DL) and a blitzer (any LB or DB). You are correct!

Nose guard defined – here’s a good link to answer the question. During a conversation I had with MN Bronco in another article this point was brought up. If you want to read the full context, read the comments under my Gaps and Techniques story.

Every team will move players around rarely during the season to show a different formation between 4-3 and 3-4. A lot goes to definition to. Technicaly, if a 3-4 LB lines up on the line the formation is a 4-3. As a defensive coach, knowing how that player contributes to his team, I will skip the “correct” definition and call the formation a 3-4 anyway because I want to take trickery into consideration.

The same goes with my exchange with TedBartlett905 some weeks ago. Ted is a purist, and defines TEs and RBs/FBs by where they line up (or end up moving to). His definitions are the correct ones. I’m looking less at where the person is lined up, and more at “why” he is lined up there because I’m deciphering the play. Thus, in Ted’s book, if Graham is in a 2 TE set and motions back to the backfield, he is lined up like a FB and he IS a FB for that play. That is the proper way to label the player.

In my book, there’s a TE in the backfield, and I know he has talents that are much different that Cecil Sapp. It will make a difference to me if I’m scheming against Denver. It isn’t technicaly correct, but it is a functional way to appoach the label.

(When drawing up plays, the correct use of terms is done. Not much time (at the HS level) is put into reinventing the wheel, so I didn’t spend much time making new plays. At game speed and in practice we used the label by player idea.)

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 8, 2008 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks HT

I just wanted to thank you for all the hard work you’ve put into these university articles, they are always a great, informative, read, and they create a great reference for anyone trying to learn (more) about football.

by hai17 on May 8, 2008 1:47 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks so much hai

I appreciate the kind words. Please let me know if there is anything you want to see covered in a MHRU post.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 8, 2008 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

MHR University

is soooo much cheaper than regular school and I get twice the knowledge I would ever get in regular University! Excellent post HT

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 9, 2008 1:41 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Then again,

...the degree you get from the “regular school” will end up padding your account and giving you a lot of self fulfillment. But If MHR-U helps you get through some of the dull academic days, well good deal!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 9, 2008 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

the padding in my account is minimal sir

As a youth worker I have learned to make due with little and look for the “Higher Reward” that comes at the end. Degree or no Degree we youth workers are underpaid. That being said I don’t think anyone that goes into youth work goes for the pay check!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 9, 2008 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that case,

your reward far exceeds any account in this world. I am edified.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 9, 2008 10:21 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

now if only we could take some of the money

players make and donate to youth workers around the country!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 9, 2008 11:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're doing great Jon.

Let’s not blow it by redistibuting wealth. That’s no way to get on good terms with “little Barbara”.

lol : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 10, 2008 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel out of my chair I was laughing so hard

and a man with a medical discharge should never get in a position to hurt himself. lol

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 10, 2008 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I'm still waiting for an invite.

lol

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 10, 2008 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

When we tie the knot

MHR will get an open invite lol

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on May 10, 2008 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've got to mention Joe Collier again.

Collier had been head coach at Buffalo but got fired at the begining of the ‘68 season. Lou Saban, an old friend, brought him to Denver in 1969. Collier coached defense in Denver for the next 20 years. It was he, not Miller who created the “Orange Crush” and was a major factor in getting Denver to the later Super bowls. He lasted through 5 head coaches: Saban, Smith (interim in ‘71), Ralston, Miller and finally Reeves. He was Assistant Head Coach when he was finally let go by Reeves after the ‘88 season.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on May 12, 2008 12:44 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You are correct sir.

I don’t want to give too much away (and you may have noticed the lack of detail I gave to the Orange Crush when discussing the 3-4s), but I will be putting together a special article on the Orange Crush. Collier will get the credit that he so richly deserves.

In tying together links between different teams that are key to the development of the modern 3-4s, I felt it only neccassary to tie in Billichick and Denver, since some younger folks may not now where this modern marvel (or cheat, depending on your take) learned his stuff. A lot of the modern 3-4 systems flow throw Denver with other coaches too (I mentioned Wade Phillips also).

But I didn’t want to get sidetracked too much from discussing what we’ll face this year. There will be an article on the Orange Crush, and I’m still in the early stages of getting it together. I am also trying to decide if it will be a technical piece, or a joint technical/historical piece done with our staff historian.

I know it will be a satisfying piece for you. I can feel the Orange Crush passion through the screen!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on May 12, 2008 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I'm stealing some thunder...

...I apologize.

I too was thinking about Wade Phillips’ connection to all this. I thought he was an excellent defensive coordinator but a little over his head as a head coach, at least at the time. We’ll see how he does in Dallas. I wish him luck because I always liked him, and his dad.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on May 12, 2008 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, I think Collier's son, Joel, is coaching with New England.

What an incestuous group these NFL coaches be. Not only that, I think Joe Collier and Lou Saban first hooked up in one of the small schools in Illinois.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on May 12, 2008 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't remember Bullough...

But if he’s coming from Buffalo, where Collier was head coach in the mid to late sixties, maybe that’s where he learned it. As I said before, Collier was hired by Lou Saban in 1969 to be a, if not the, defensive coach. He had a problem in that he didn’t have many big, run stuffing defensive linemen but had a lot of quick-smallish linemen, and faster than heck linebackers. Billy Thompson said words to the effect that Collier was a master at putting the right people in just the right places to make the plays.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on May 12, 2008 6:42 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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