Guru's Point: The Hall of Fame
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 9:02 PM MDT
70 comments
Fans might need to try and do more to help get these Broncos in the Hall. Unfortunately, even those efforts might not be enough. I recently read a great article from 2006 about Floyd Little and the lack of Broncos in the Hall of Fame.
Little is very humble about it, just the way we as fans pride ourselves in our team. Check out these Floyd Little quotes…they’re even somewhat sad. I’m not going into the debate on who should or shouldn’t be in the Hall here, I’m simply talking about the lack of Broncos in the Hall: something all of us at MHR have thought about.
"Forget about Floyd Little, the [Hall of Fame] has already forgotten about me,'' he said. "But how do you go to six Super Bowls and only have one representative? That's disrespectful to overlook our players. My concern today is Denver.''
- The guy’s humble and he’s loyal to this team and just as pissed as a lot of us: just as pissed as us fans
On TD and the Hall:
"Terrell was a great player,'' Little said. "The reason why he [might not] get in is because he played for the Broncos. If he played for the New York Giants -- if I played for the New York Giants -- and had these numbers, there would be no question. I think it's horrible we don't have more in there.''
- Again, there’s Guru’s point about playing in Denver.
Here’s John Madden’s take on the issue.
"What happens is you get to that point -- you can't care every year or it would drive you nuts,'' said former Oakland Raiders coach and current commentator John Madden, who was inducted last summer. "Floyd was a great player and a Hall of Fame-type guy. I think [he'll get in].''
- Call me when he gets in Johnny!
"The life expectancy of a running back who's played in the NFL is 58,'' said Little, who just published a book on his time with the Broncos. "I'm 64. If I go into the Hall, I want to be in while I'm alive and can celebrate. I don't want to be elected posthumously.''
He paused.
"All the articles used to say future Hall of Famer,'' Little said. "What changed? The answer is I played in Denver. They [voters] don't respect our players. Had I played anywhere else we would not be having this conversation.''
Also, from the article:
Denver isn't alone, of course. Some teams have no players -- who've played a majority of their careers for the franchise -- in the Hall (including the Falcons, Ravens, Jaguars and Panthers) and others have only one (Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Cincinnati and Seattle). Chicago has 26.
So we’re not alone, but it still doesn’t make it right. Denver’s gotta have a little more “greats of all-time” than are represented in the Hall no matter which way you feel on one particular player or another.
Alright, I’m done with all the quotes. Read the article. Little makes GREAT points, points echoed by all of us here at MHR and it’s saddening. He DID care about making the Hall and still does a little bit. He even wrote letters to HOF voters! Now it's gotten to the point where he cares more about this TEAM getting recognition rather than just himself personally.
I know this post doesn’t have a lot of substance, but I didn’t need it to. These quotes do a heck of a lot of the talking. I don’t live in Denver, but it’s gotta be embarrassing for those that do. At least the Broncos have one player in the Hall of Fame, but nothing is wrong with a little more.
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Denver Broncos (all-time) |
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Regular Season Record (all-time): 378-336-10 |
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Playoff Record (all-time): 17-15 (last appearance after 2005 season) |
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Super Bowls Won: 2 out of 6 appearances |
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Championships Won: 2 |
That’s a fairly admirable record.
As Guru said, “We’ve gotta do more.” Does “we” include the Denver media, the Broncos as an organization, and the NFL? Yes. However, we can also include us fans. As Guru said, the awareness on the lack of Broncos in the Hall is stunning, because there is none amongst the general national media. What can we do to help the cause?
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Now we're talking!
Denver isn’t alone, of course. Some teams have no players - who’ve played a majority of their careers for the franchise - in the Hall (including the Falcons, Ravens, Jaguars and Panthers) and others have only one (Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Cincinnati and Seattle). Chicago has 26.
Interesting…3 of the 4 teams with no representation are expansion teams and most of the players are not yet eligible. The Falcons…well, Deion Sanders played a lot of years for them right? ;)
Tampa Bay, New Orleans, and Seattle have don’t exactly squat to deserve more than their one guys. Two Super Bowls between them, all in the last few years so any future hall of famers will be far down the road.
I just don’t see how the Denver Broncos fit into the same echelon as the teams above…they just don’t. I understand the Bears having so many, they’ve been around 40+ years longer than the Broncos have. ;)
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 1, 2008 9:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Count up the number of Super Bowls those teams have! If you look at the Jags, they’re a very young team that continues to improve. Floyd’s quotes are sad and the fact that Denver is in the same boat as those teams is also sad. What is it about that Colorado/Utah area that people don’t like?
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know and I don't care. I'd piss into a strong wind before I took the time to listen to the senior committee's reasoning for snubbing the Broncos.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 1, 2008 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
They’d probably have no idea they even snubbed the Broncos. They’d be like WHAT? They have only one HOFer? I thought they were pretty good. Oh well, that’s too bad.
And that was Floyd’s point. Voters would tell him ‘Floyd, you should be in the Hall.’ Well then do something about it! Give some reasons why! Don’t just say what should be done. Oh yeah, we should strive for world peace. There’s a difference between what ‘should’ be done and what ultimately ‘is’ done the last time I checked.
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 9:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is their office?
Perhaps next year we can organize a protest outside their building and protest the Bronco snubbings. If we can get a few hundred people then they’d obviously have to start at least THINKING about how bad this is to the purity of the game!
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 1, 2008 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be down for the protest but I think we need to be more constructive
I googled the MHR a while back and we are getting some outside recongnition and your forgotten Broncos articles are easy to find via google too. I think we need to be more in your face like the Redskins fans etc. We are starting to do it here on the MHR now we need to go the next step! GURU TO ESPN!
Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Jun 1, 2008 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm down with getting Guru to take over Bill Williamson's job...
We’d get better reporting that’s for sure! And you are probably right, but a large protest would also get instant recognition that we might not get over just the internet.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 1, 2008 9:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Denver Post
I’m willing to compose a letter to the Post, if you guys want to try getting Guru in.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 1, 2008 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
A move to Denver in the near future? :-o
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you really need an answer?
they are jealous of the beauty of the Rocky Mountain West. They don’t live there and they wish they did. They have to go back to thier dumpy places on the east coast. Enough said!
fader nation is a conquered nation
by mdierk on Jun 1, 2008 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
There’s also the Midwest, Central, and the South (Cowboys)...but no he picks on the East lol
Wait to stick up for that rocky mountain high! We need more of that. Let’s start an NFL area war even though I don’t live in the Rocky Mountain West.
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
the reason i dodn
fader nation is a conquered nation
by mdierk on Jun 2, 2008 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry...
the reason I didn’t pick on the other areas is most of the bias is in the east coast. people can recognize what the broncos do in the rest of the country.
fader nation is a conquered nation
by mdierk on Jun 2, 2008 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence the term "east coast bias"
guess the east gets what it deserves :P
by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone hasn't had the chance, read Floyd Little's book
Tales From The Broncos Sideline. It’s a great read for Bronco fans and he talks about the hall of fame snub several times. He is one of our best advocates for getting our guys into the fall of shame.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 1, 2008 9:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Fall of Shame
Just a note: I understand your frustrations with the Broncos snub. I agree 100%. Howver, take it out on the committee who votes them in. You shouldn’t refer to the HOF as the Fall of Shame. Elway, along with other great players, are in their and had nothing to do with the voting process or the Broncos snub. I’m not mad or anything, just wanted to point it out.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 1, 2008 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
Let’s not take it out on those players who deserved it and did work their butts off. Because, as Guru said they are “the greats of all-time” and not the greats of particular team histories in particular.
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 10:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I highly, highly recommend this book!
Ted Bartlett, if you will send me your address (my email in on my fan page) I will send you a copy. It is an easy read and filled with humor and pathos. It is a must read for anyone who has an interest in the history of the Denver Broncos.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Raplh Waldo Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 1, 2008 11:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see your email anywhere
I appreciate you thinking of me, and I’m very interested to read this book. My email is ted.bartlett@gmail.com, and if you email me there, I’ll definitely send you the address. Thanks a lot.
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS
by Ted Bartlett on Jun 2, 2008 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Gradishar
Here’s a link I found earlier in the year when Gradishar was one of the nominees.
http://gradishar4hof.com/home.aspx
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 1, 2008 9:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic article
Every damned HOF voter should have that clipping stuck in front of his face before next year’s travesty takes place.
"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen
by spock on Jun 3, 2008 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Harry Carson is in...
...Gradishar should be too. He was the better of the two.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gary Zimmerman
Does anyone know if Zimmerman decided to go in as a Viking or a Bronco? He played equal years for both.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 1, 2008 9:48 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was wondering that for Lynch. IF his time comes.
Which I hope it does in the future. Should be interesting to see what happens. Let’s phone him up and tell him how much it would mean to the city of Denver for another number in the Hall
by phantom818 on Jun 1, 2008 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
One can hope
But you just can’t blame him, if he goes in for Tampa – if he thinks it will highthen his chances to go in. I might it was in florida he got the ring, remember.
My point is, he going in for Tampa will not lessen my high thoughts of him.
Remember: New England won 18 last year; Oakland's won 19 in a half-decade
/The great Dane - formerly known as Claaaaas!
by Claus Vestergaard on Jun 2, 2008 3:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
He might need Denver to do something special this season if he’s going to have any big chances of going in for them. Otherwise he was also loved as a Buc in that Super Bowl run and I’ll still respect him whoever he goes in for.
by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 6:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would expect Lynch to go as a Buc
That’s where his championship and many pro-bowls happened, and I would really respect that decision.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 8:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lynch said he is a Buc
Zim said he is a Bronco.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 2, 2008 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree.
Plus, the front office specualtion that he couldn’t perform anymore didn’t help. In the end, he was my favorite non-Broncos player for a number of years. I’m just glad he was able to spend some time in Denver and I enjoyed wearing his jersey to the games.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe ZIM said Bronco
Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!
Davis to the Hall!
by Jon Tollerud on Jun 1, 2008 10:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the info!
That makes me feel better. Well, now we got #2 in the Hall. Next up: TD, Sharpe, Gradishar?, and Little?. Possibly Elam?, Bailey?, Shanny?, and Smith?
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is only one place kicker in the hall of fame...
Elam wasn’t that good. You’ll get no debate from me by saying he was the greatest Bronco kicker of all time and worthy of a place on the Ring of Fame…
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 2, 2008 9:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a good arguement for best placekicker of all time too.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but...
I know Stenarud (spelling?) was great and all, but I think Elam’s FG% and his 63-yarder should get him some sort of discussion to the Hall.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elam didnt even have a great FG% when
compared to all the good place kickers in history. He has the record…the other guy who shares the record isnt in the hall of fame either.
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
by Tim Lynch on Jun 3, 2008 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Zimmerman retired
he said that if he were selected he would go in as a Bronco. Of course, things change, but he always struck me as a man of his word.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Raplh Waldo Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 1, 2008 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Football is different
Unlike baseball, where a player wears a hat of a team on the bust, an NFL player doesn’t necessarily distinguish which team he represents. The telling thing in the case of Zim, though, is that Pat Bowlen will be inducting him. We can claim him as a Broncos HOFer, and it’s a very well-deserved honor for him.
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important --like a league game or something." DICK BUTKUS
by Ted Bartlett on Jun 2, 2008 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is going in as a Bronco
And Pat Bowlen is going to be his presenter. He has no loyalty or care for the Vikings to him.
He has said the Viking organization is dead to him
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 2, 2008 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good God
Gradishar averaged over 200 tackles a year and he’s not in the Hall? That’s criminal.
O'Brien's Law states that Murphy was an optimist.
by Emmett Smith on Jun 1, 2008 11:00 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Most of those tackles
were at the line of scrimmage or behind it!! The guy belongs in a class with Nitchke and Butkis.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Raplh Waldo Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 1, 2008 11:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Preaching to the choir!
I know what you guys are saying. He might not be as good as those two or even Sam Huff, but he’s definitely right up there with Jack Lambert and Mike Singletary.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you first fan.
I don’t think he was quite the power hitter that either of those two were. But when he got someone, they stayed got. Plus he was oh so much faster than either of those guys, even in their primes. And another thing, which I think is why you said what you said, is that he could anticipate where the hole was going to be, even before it opened and get there before the back.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
“when he got someone,they stayed got.” lol I love that line.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all
I want to thank you Phantom for bringing this up. I am very passionate about the snubs the Denver Broncos have received over the years from the hof. I am willing to do whatever it takes to promote Floyd Little and other Broncos for selection to the hof. But I don’t know what to do!!I do believe that Floyd Little is perhaps the best place to start.
Can anyone give me advice on where to start? Styg said we could get published. How? Does anyone know how to get some film of Floyd in action? TedBartlett905 made a very powerful point; he has never seen Little play! How can we correct this for the younger fans? How do we get the Denver fans engaged? Is this the right time? I don’t want to start promoting and run out of gas and look like Sam Adams heading for the sideline. I think it would be best if it were well timed to be fresh in the senior committee’s mind.
I am rambling now. There are more questions than answers.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Raplh Waldo Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 1, 2008 11:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Here is the list of HOF selectors.
Pro Football Hall of Fame Board of Selectors
Arizona Kent Somers, Arizona Republic
Atlanta Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com
Baltimore Scott Garceau, WMAR-TV
Buffalo Mark Gaughan, Buffalo News
Carolina Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer
Chicago Dan Pompei, Chicago Tribune
Cincinnati Chick Ludwig, Dayton Daily News
Cleveland Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer
Dallas Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News*
Denver Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News
Detroit Mike O’Hara, The Detroit News
Green Bay Cliff Christl, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Houston John McClain, Houston Chronicle*
Indianapolis Mike Chappell, Indianapolis Star
Jacksonville Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV
Kansas City Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS
Miami Edwin Pope, Miami Herald*
Minnesota Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune
New England Ron Borges, HBO Sports/Pro Football Weekly
New Orleans Pete Finney, Times-Picayune
New York (Giants) Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record
New York (Jets) Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated
Oakland Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange
Philadelphia Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News
Pittsburgh Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
St. Louis Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
San Diego Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune*
San Francisco Ira Miller, The Sports Xchange*
Seattle Clare Farnsworth, Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Tampa Bay Ira Kaufman, Tampa Tribune
Tennessee David Climer, The Tennessean
Washington David Elfin, Washington Times
PFWA Charean Williams, Ft. Worth Star Telegram
At Large Howard Balzer, The Sports Xchange
At Large Jarrett Bell, USA Today
At Large John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine
At Large John Czarnecki, FoxSports.com
At Large Nancy Gay, San Francisco Chronicle
At Large Dave Goldberg, Associated Press*
At Large Peter King, Sports Illustrated
At Large Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times
At Large Len Shapiro, Miami Herald*
At Large Vito Stellino, Florida Times Union
At Large Jim Trotter, Sports Illustrated
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank You Bronco Billy!
My next letter will be to Legwold.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 3, 2008 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I think Legwold was the one who was really pushing for him last year. I hear Peter King has some poll for some reason or another!
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LEGWOLD is the WRONG Guy!
Legwold hasn’t been around that long. He’s not a convincing speaker and he has no loyalty to the Broncos of old. He’s a Titan fan. Hell he wrote the book for Steve McNair. We can’t expect anything from him.
I say put Woody Paige in there as the Denver rep and things will change. Woody can argue with the best of them and the Broncos are deep in his soul. Like him or not, Paige would be the best rep/voter from the Denver area.
"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"
Alex Karras
by Denver Diehard on Jun 4, 2008 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the teams
with one or fewer HOFer 6 are expansion teams (Sea,TB, Jax, Car, Hou, and Balt is considered one) and they all have combeined for 7 superbowls. This is a joke. I like that Zimm got in. BUT #53 is not and Tippett from NE is. Right there that tells ya there is a bias against the Broncos. I hate and have no respect for the writers. The HOF needs to change who votes. Writers have biases which is not fair to deserving players. I think Lionel Taylor should be in, Billy Thompson and Floyd and more. Its a joke. Thats why i despise writers like those pieces of crap in SI (Zimmerman and King – this really gets my blood boiling) Another thing TD has better stats than Sayers not to mention 2008 yards a Super Bowl MVP and NFL MVP and Sayers for as good as he was, was never able to lead the Bears to a palyoff game, let alone anything more. Plus if he was sooooo good why was he the best player on a 1-13 team. If he was all that and a bag of chips why couldnt they win more than.
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 2, 2008 12:58 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think
Gale should be in the Hall. I also obviously think TD should be in the Hall. To me it’s not too much of an issue of who got in before who, just an issue that the guy gets in. Again, as many of us here at MHR all you have to do is look at the stats and history…something you just did there.
by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gale Sayers is in the Hall
He was inducted in ‘77.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I know
I mean he’s deservedly there. Even if I liked TD’s resume better, I’d still think Sayers deserves to be in.
by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another way of looking at things...
I did some research a while back. If you look at the teams that have won two consecutive Super Bowls, every team that accomplished this has at least 4 or 6 players from those teams that made the Hall of Fame. The only exception was Dallas in the ‘90’s because some of them aren’t eligible yet.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 2, 2008 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I use the Sayers comparison
Because I am sick and tired of the clowns that vote in players using TD not playing longer as an excuse to keep him out. Now thats not to say TD wont get in. But from what I have read its unlikely for a while. I mean to me what shows a HOFer. A guy who can take a team to the top. Where opposing coaches are devising plans to stop him. I just get so pissed when I hear the reasons TD cant or should not be in. Instead of why he SHOULD be in.
by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 2, 2008 3:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Gayle Sayers had once-in-a-lifetime talent.
He ran with more grace than I have ever seen, before or since. On some individual plays he was better than Terrell Davis or Floyd Little or anybody else who ever played running back. If not for injuries he might well have ended up in the top five RB’s of all time. I do not exagerate.
But he was chronically injured and his career was cut short.
I think he got in because so many people saw that talent, and mourned for it’s loss. And he (and probably a ghost writer) wrote a very good book, “I am Third”. And there was a wildly popular tear jerker of a movie about his relationship with cancer victim Brian Picalo, “Brian’s Song”. Both came out at or near the time his career ended and near the time he was first eligible for selection. Both paint a good picture of a very fine human being. And he played in one of the prime markets, Chicago. Ergo, he got in.
Some one up above said selection shouldn’t be about who is in already, and I understand but respectfully disagree. In this way I compare the selection process with the law. If standards become too subjective, decided without regard for precedence, then people begin to lose respect for the whole process. How many of us respect a criminal system where those who have money to hire the best lawyers get off, while those who can’t afford those same lawyers are sent away for years?
Along those same lines, when players from the great markets get selected while players of equal or greater accomplishments from the smaller markets are snubbed, the system creates a sense of injustice. People begin to lose all respect for the institution. People become frustrated, eventually angry. Isn’t that exactly what we have here?
If Gayle Sayers is in, which he is and I think deservedly so, Davis and Little should be in too. Hands down, they both had much better careers and their lives off the field are just as heart warming and interesting.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
That was me…I’ll own up to it.
“To me it’s not too much of an issue of who got in before who, just an issue that the guy gets in. “
I just meant that this H.O.F. issue, for me is more of an issue of neglect for the city of Denver. Basically, I’m more for arguing for particular players on the Denver team that deserved to get in from the get go. I just didn’t want to debate whether or not other guys should or shouldn’t be in the hall or who should’ve been in the hall before someone else. It’s easy to say what should have happened or what should happen.
I think those in the Hall deserve to be there, and while maybe not at the moment, eventually deserved to get in. However, you’re right…it’s injustice. That’s something I said when I posted the other teams with lack of players in the Hall. It’s just not fair to the city of Denver. I know that and I don’t even live there. I understand there’s injustice and that’s a huge problem. But instead of griping about who else is in the Hall, I want to make my personal mission learning about those who aren’t in the Hall and deserve to be there and making a case for those guys.
The guys who are in the HOF are in, that’s that. However, a lot of people get tied up in the arguments between those in it and those out of it and focus too much on those in the H.O.F. in the debate. I know us Bronco fans here at MHR certainly don’t. I definitely think it’s wrong for Denver not to have that many Hall of Famers, mainly because of its small television market. Do the Bears have too many Hall of Famers? Maybe, but the guys were still great players. It’s unfair that Denver doesn’t have much of a following nationally, by the national media guys. I wanted to make this a personal issue about the Broncos and their players. It does matter that other markets got the bigger attention and respect from the media, I won’t deny that. When I made that statement, I was just trying to say that Gale deserves his current position in the Hall and didn’t want to taint it with arguments about others who should’ve gotten in before him. The past is now gone and what’s happened has unfortunately happened. Instead of dwelling there, I feel fans of these Bronco players should look ahead to the future and correcting those injustices of the past instead of arguing about them (that doesn’t get you very far).
Hopefully you got that and understand where I’m coming from. I wasn’t saying that the lack of respect for the Denver market WASN’T an issue (as I mentioned it in my post). If I had had a vote, I certainly would’ve thrown some of those Denver guys into the fray. Thanks for the points and I look forward to learning more about the old-time greats and making a case for their induction someday. Guys like you make this site great with the perspectives you offer.
by phantom818 on Jun 3, 2008 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for your kind reply.
The way you explain it makes it clear to me we are on the same wave length. I, too, believe those who are there, deserve to be there (mostly) and I think we are all talking about a great team, the Broncos, who have been unjustly snubbed.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stare Decisis
I don’t want to tread on a real attorney! But if we follow the analogy, isn’t stare decisis dicatating that we do things the same old way (popularity contest) instead of following an objective standard (be it stats or the written law)?
My colors may be showing, but it seems to me that “stare” gets used to justify some laws, but not others (by both sides of the spectrum). In the case of the hof, I don’t want things done the same old way. I want them done the right way (or perhaps how the founders of the hof may have wanted). I may be on slippery ground, since the founders (of the hof) may have prefered a popularity contest.
Perhaps we can call a constitutional convention and get the rules written to protect talent over popularity!
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 3, 2008 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I met Gale Sayers once...
and he’s pretty intelligent. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he wrote “I am Third” by himself, but I know what you are saying most non-writers have a writer for their book.
I met him while getting an old “Duke” football signed for my Dad, who loved the guy. My wife and I were standing in line, when my wife (who can hold her own against most women on football) asked “Where is Gale?” I told her that he was just ahead wearing the glasses and Mr. Rogers vest. She replied, “I thought he was white!” (It got a chuckle from the people around us, but I guess it’s not as funny if you weren’t there.) Needless to say, I made her watch “Brian’s Song” that night to give her some perspective.
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't tread on me...
...just kidding. ; )
I see what you are saying about stare decisis, a.k.a. the same old popularity crisis. But the thing that makes a lawyer good is being able to look at a case and say what the judge really meant in the old case is exactly what is happening in the present case. In other words, that old judge, wise person that he was, would rule exactly the same way on my current case.
So what the h.o.f. v. Sayers ruling really says is that guys with extraordinary talent, who do remarkably well in careers shortened by injury, and who are really nice guys off the field, should be in the h.o.f. In the present case, h.o.f. v. Davis (or h.o.f. v. Little), not only did my client have extraordinary talent and have his career shortened by injury, (Davis and to a lesser extent, Little) but was a really nice guy off the field (insert facts); but also he did it better and for longer.
Therefore, justice demands and the present selection committee has no choice but to select Davis/Little as well.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 3, 2008 4:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You're hired.
Make this happen.
lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 3, 2008 4:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second HT's notion!! : )
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's it
This is the line of reasoning we need to approach the hof selection commmittee. I will cast out for information from MHR. Is the Senior Selection Committe part of Bronco Billy’s list above? If not, is ist a different list? Who is on the Senior committee? Thanks Jack!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 3, 2008 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Senior Committee
From the list above: the Senior Selection Committee is marked by an asterisk after their name (i.e. Dallas – Rick Gosselin)
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting--died!" - George W. Cecil
by Bronco Billy on Jun 3, 2008 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone have any insider info
On how best to lobby them? I am guessing they get a gazillion “I am a fan of” letters each year. When/how have they actually been moved by fans? Art Monk comes to mind…
We have a really engaged/active community here. How best to mobilize them is the question, to me…
My immediate thought is that we have to step in where the traditional media is failing – i.e. promote the Broncos online and in print, report on the Broncos, keep lots of valid statistical and other information out there and available (through things like Wikipedia, etc.), provide info to media outlets and finally mobilize a letter/email/info campaign around the HOF voting.
The other angle of attack would be to look at the structure of the HOF voting itself, and see if there is an element that lends itself to not selecting from smaller/less known markets and do some organizing around changing that.
If people are into this, I do a lot fo consulting around activist technology tools, and would happily try to apply some of that to the cause of Little, TD, etc. and pave the way for Rod Smith – cause in my opinion he deserves a spot.
by jonahsilas on Jun 4, 2008 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am definitely into this.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson
by firstfan on Jun 4, 2008 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tombstone
got mention on NFL Network’s Top 10 Pass Rushers List in the Best of the Rest category. They even noted that not many people have heard of him. Well what do you know.
Looks like this guy has a good chance to make the hall soon enough, although the injury ending his career does hurt his chances a bit.
by phantom818 on Jun 3, 2008 8:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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