MHR University - Roster Part 2; Now it Gets Hard!
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 5:14 AM MDT
in MHR University
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POP QUIZ!
The last time we got together, I tried to show how difficult making the final cuts can be. Coaches look at talent, behavior, attitude, injuries, finances and potential to make the difficult cuts. We used a defensive depth chart as a model, and looked at some of the decisions to be made.
Now let's take up. By looking at a potential depth for the Broncos in '08, we see just how hard the process gets. Remember that we took 25 guys on defense (my arbitrary number), 3 for STs (a K, P, and LS), and are now left with 25 spots for the offense.
I included all of our rookies, one UFA that I think stands a fair chance of making the team, and a host of players from last year and FA. I tried to include names that I felt had a reasonable chance to make the team (and I know there are sharp minds out there that might see a UFA or two that I missed that might differ with me).
Take a look at the chart below (which has 31 names on it) and tell us which six players you would cut and why. (It's an opinion pop quiz, so you score an A+ just for playing!)
There are much tougher calls on our dep offense, and some of the cuts will be very difficult. Read more...
Maybe a few names jump out that you feel we can knock down. But past that, it's a tricky proposition. I'll share my thoughts, and feel free to support or tear down my thinking. It's all in good fun. I'm really curious to hear what some of you would do. Remember, there's no right or wrong. I'm no more a judge of NFL talent than anyone else. In fact, I know we have some college football watchers and some terrific amatuer scouts who have a great eye for talent.
Perhaps I left off a name or two? JonahSilas is writing a great series called "Why He'll Make the Team", which advocates for UFAs that you may not have taken a close enough look at. Or maybe you disagree with my cuts. Share your thoughts! I wouldn't ask you to do anything I wouldn't do, so here's my thoughts.
Right of the bat, I call Mike Bell into the coach's office. We have two solid FBs in Sapp and Hillis, and at least five solid RBs in Young, Pittman, Hall, Torain, and Aldridge. Bell has a future somewhere else, but Denver is too full at HB and FB. Five names to go.
The next name that isn't too hard (for me) is Martinez. With Royal, we hope we've found magic at PR. We also still have several players left that can play at #2 or slot, and Martinez isn't one of them. His best shot of beating out someone, say Parker, is that he is young enough to grow into a better WR, and he can back-up at PR. But as a WR, he is outclassed by everyone else on the depth chart. Maybe he accepts a practice squad spot, but with our depth I don't think we even offer that. Four names to go.
Shanny doesn't carry three QBs most years. Hackney has a lot of potential, but has been in a little trouble. That's not something we can afford (let's say, a DUI arrest the day before a game). Ramsey doesn't have the potential of Hackney, but can hold his own by managing an offense for part of a game, and is a good mentor (solid guy) for Cutler to go to. Hackney definitely gets a practice squad chance. But I still have three names left!
So much talent and potential on the OL, but nine names? Someone has to go. If Harris was the star that we had hoped he would be, we wouldn't bring in a rookie to start at LT, and be moving Kuper to RT. Harris deserves a practice squad nod, while Pears plays back-up to the tackles. K-Stieger stays on the chart as a back-up guard, but will be groomed to take over when Nalen and Wiegmann move on. Are there two more names I can drop off?
We have two star TEs in Graham and Scheff. We like to keep four TEs, but we must find two more names, and most of the players left could be starters on this team. Neither Mustard nor Jackson are starting material. But we need at least one back-up, because we will play quite a few two-TE sets through the year. I think Mustard is more balanced. He blocks much, much better than Jackson, and showed at the end of last year that he has some pretty decent hands. Jackson is a converted receiver, but never was a solid blocker. Jackson visits the coach's office. I think he's been on the bubble in the past, so he isn't surprised. One to go.
Man, we have a lot of RBs and WRs. Of the remaining WRs, I just can't part with anyone. Marsh is a starter at #1, and Jackson and Colbert are solid enough to play at #2. The other one makes a great back-up. Stokley is a great slot, and Royal is probably our future at slot, and our projected starting PR. Parker has the speed and experience to be a great back-up as well, in case two WRs get hurt, and could play as #4.
But you don't need the number of back-ups at HB that you need at WR. There are three main WR positions, but only one HB position. You need a couple of guys for a committee scheme, and at least two back-ups. Uh-oh; someone is hitting the FA market.
Young is a projected starter, so he's safe. Pittman is my early guess at spell or rotation. Torain is the one, solid power runner on the team. Hall put up good numbers last year in limited time, and can play at KR. He also has good speed. Aldridge (bless his little UFA heart) makes my list because he is the UFA that not only stands out to me, but I think we rarely miss picking HBs. Who goes?
Hall. He gets injured if he is used to much, and he may have trade value (even if it is late round). And in my mind, there is too much upside to the other guys at HB.
Young may be the best of the bunch. Pittman is nearly an H-Back by talent. Torain is valuable as our one, true power HB. And I believe Aldridge has potential, and I believe he's hungry. Call it an old coach's gut feeling, because there are plenty of very smart arguments against keeping him over Hall.
In fact, there are a lot of great arguments against any of my cuts. What are your thoughts? Who would you keep, who would you cut, and why?
HT's depth chart after roster cuts:
It's the very first MHR University Quiz, so give it a try!
As always, drop any football related questions in the comments section. We have a great readership at MHR that is willing to help. No question is too simple or too complex. Also, if you've never spoken up, think about speaking up! Everyone here is cool with new people, and we'd like to hear from you.
Go Broncos!
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I was all set...
to take the quiz until I noticed we completely agree! In some cases, it’s just time for guys to be gone(Bell, Martinez), in others the talent simply never seemed to match the hype(Hall).
The one difference, and I can’t believe I am saying this, would be Mustard V. Jackson. Sure, Mustard can play multiple positions, and that makes him valuable, but I think the Broncos have addressed the O-Line depth and Mustard simply isn’t needed. Now, if Jackson hurts his groin tying his shoe this will change!
The Broncos added depth to alot of areas this off-season and the time has come to cut-bait with some guys that have been taking up valuable space on the roster.
-TSG
www.milehighreport.com
Does Hillis change this at all
If he shows himself to truly be a versatile H-back in camp?
My thinking is if Hills can step in as a backup pass-catching TE, Mustard becomes a much more valuable commodity than Jackson, due to his blocking ability. And Shanny loves/needs his TE’s to block, that’s for sure.
And you are totally right there is some dead weight to cast off. As much as I like the person, the story, the roots, I am with HT that Jackson is some of that fodder…
I guess it...
will come down to how quickly Hillis can learn the offense, and how effective he is in the blocking scheme.
In the end, it is going to come down to who is healthy when Camp breaks – Jackson or Mustard….
-TSG
www.milehighreport.com
I can't believe we're willing to dump Ryan Harris after one season...
The guy had a back injury…is he really that awful?? I’d hate to think we wasted a third rounder on a guy we barely gave 14 months to develop. lol I guess we’ve done worse…third rounder on Clarett maybe?
If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08
I really don't think that Harris will be dropped.
Even if he is a failure at tackle, we can move him to Guard. He started out as a guard in college and does a good job there. We are going to need a guard if we move Kuper to the outside.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?
Zappa and Amir
He was a high rounder, but what has he shown? Yes, he was injured and I accept that you don’t judge a guy’s career on that alone. But I think that there are danger signs on the wall for him. We drafted a rookie to start at tackle, and we announced that Kuper was moving to tackle on the other side. Last year’s starter at one of the tackle positions (Pears) is only competing for a spot (with Clady), and Harris doesn’t even get mentioned. I’m thinking he isn’t impressing so far.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Wiegmann and Stieger can back up at OG.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Guru
Awesome point on Mustard versus Jackson, and frankly, a point I hadn’t considered very well in my own thinking. The only argument for Mustard now might be that he can back-up both Scheff and Graham to some degree (while Jackson only really supports Scheff as a pass catcher). But considering your point that our OL looks so solid right now, I think your point may have more weight than mine.
Excellent point, and an obvious A+ to you sir!
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions
I posted something about Alridge beating out Hall on another website and got hollered at. Glad to see I’m not completely alone. Alridge has speed and his comments when he was signed were all about proving he should have been drafted and that he would make other teams pay. I think he has all the skills that Hall has plus more upside. In the end though, I’m not going to be surprised when Hall stays on the active roster and Alridge hits the practice squad.
Actually, this UDFA class seems like one of the best in the league in that we got three of the most highly sought after guys in Alridge, Polumbus, and Woodyard. Not to mention highly rated specialist prospects in Kern and Hartley. All those guys were rated as draftable prospects.
I like Aldridge's Skills and speed, but
but 185 lbs is just too small. And dude is a RB! The guy is so light that the D can just arm tackle him—something which isn’t supposed to happen to a RB. No matter how fast he is, without power he cannot be a RB. Now if you want him at another position, that is a different story, but he cannot a be a RB in 08.
Take a look at Reggie Bush. So much skill/speed, but just like some people said before he was drafted: at 200 lbs he just can’t get it done as and NFL Running back. Great receiver, no doubt. But 3 yards a carry is not cutting it.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?
Yeah
When I saw Alridge clips, I thought – convert him to receiver. But at his size he would play the slot, behind Stokely, Royal and Parker. Um, not happening.
But I do think he is hungry, and Shanny might be more likely to throw him in for 5 plays a game and try to hit the home run. I cannot see him doing that with Hall.
Having said that, I think Alridge goes practice squad and is first man up after an RB gets injured.
I am not feeling it HT
I am ok with your QB, WR and TE choices, but I have serious issues with your OL choices and RB.
Why would you keep 35 year old Wiegmann over Harris? We Can not cut a 3rd round pick after 1 year. The dude hasn’t even seen the field yet. Practice Squad for Harris is not an option. I will guarantee you 100% that if we let Harris go, he will get claimed off the wire before we can sign him again (Think D Hixon).
Sure we picked Clady for LT and have Kuper working at RT, but so what? Harris still has a pretty good chance of beating out Kuper for the RT job, and if he doesn’t then he can move to Guard. He played Guard at Notre Dame before moving to Tackle-and his versatility was one reason we picked him. The idea from day 1 was that if he works out as out next OT, then we got a great deal. And if he can’t make it as a OT in the NFL then we move him to OG-no loss.
Keep in mind that by moving Kuper to T, and shipping Meyers out of town we have only 1 solid OG left (Holland). Hamilton is 30 and a question mark, and the dude from Indy is a backup (they let him walk and drafted 3 interior linemen this year). So even if he fails at OT, he can make it at OG.
Moving on: I see Wiegmann as an insurance policy in case Nalen and Hamilton don’t recover from their injuries. He will not make the team under any other circumstance. Frankly, if K-Lick does a good job in camp and we loose Nalen or Hamilton, we still might not keep Wiegmann.
This is the way I see out O-line: The () stand for a guy backing up more than one position.
LT Clady, Pears
LG Hamilton, Harris
C Nalen, (Hamilton), K-Lich
RG Holland, (Harris)
RT Kuper, (Pears)
If we keep one more player it will most likely be Gandy at OG; he is cheap but has experience, and he is young enough to have some upside left (If we are lucky he will turn out a steal like Holland).
My next issue is at RB. Keep Hall. To me, he is a carbon copy of Young (close enough anyways). They are almost interchangeable. Since neither is durable, we need both to make sure we have that “type of RB” available on game day.
We obviously keep Torain.
So there is Pittman. He is here as insurance against Torain. If Torain proves himself in pre-season, then I don’t see Pittman making this team. Certainly not beyound the first few weeks of the season. I just see Sam Adams all over again.
Aldridge is intriguing, but he went un-drafted. We can send him to the practice squad and be pretty sure that no one will pick him off. He cant take a year to become more NFL ready (Like Hall did). On the other hand, if we cut Hall, there are teams that will jump on him asap.
Anyhow, that’s my 2 cents
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?
Missed The Harris...
decision. This easily has to be the toughest decision the coaching staff has to make…They have added experienced depth as well as as intriguing youth.
The fact that there are so many question marks(Nalen and Hamilton’s at the forefront) means alot of these decisions will go all the way through T.C.
-TSG
www.milehighreport.com
I agree 100%
I love Nalen; his presence can do a lot for our young guys. But at the same time, he is 37. Dude isn’t going to be here for long, and we need that roster spot.
If Hamilton is 100% back, in the long run, we might be better off without Nalen this year.
This is what we would have:
LT Clady, Pears
LG Kuper, Gandy
C Hamilton, K-Lick
RG Holland, (Gandy)
RT Harris, (Pears)
You could switch Kuper and Harris around if that’s how you like it. The general idea is that we would have a very solid young O-line, with solid experienced depth at OT and OG.
The center would be our only weakness with K-Lick backing up Hamilton, but that is hardly a big risk. We have a rookie LT (a good one, but hey he is a rookie), and and first year starter at RT (whether it’s Harris or Kuper). Next to that, a rookie backup isn’t such a big risk.
And if Hamilton does go down, we could ask Nalen to come back for half a season, or re-sign Wiegmann.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?
I like your point about Wiegmann
and Guru’s point about this going through camp. Guy is definitely insurance, and if the starters and the rooks look good, he is probably out of a job.
Any other insurance we have on the squad? Is Stokely insurance for Royal/Parker at this point? Jackson for Scheffler? Any others?
I think Stokely starts.
I think Royal backs him. I think Parker is situational (4th WR, insurance against any two WRs going down or any of the other WRs not working out during the season).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions
My thinking was
if we are really rebuilding here, and Royal progresses, do you drop the high cost/high injury risk/successful vet for the upstart…. Parker, I agree is going to have to show a lot to be anything but a backup’s-backup.
In Stokley's case...
I think Stokley is probably the best slot receiver in the NFL today. Really. I also think that his injury issue last year was that he was forced to be an every down player to cover for Walker.
Not only did Stokley hold his own against the #1 CBs from other teams, he did it filling in a role he hadn’t studied from the playbook (he wasn’t supposed to back the #1 WR). Shanahan went so far as to apologize to Stokley for putting him in that role, saying that the cause of the injury was his (Shanny’s) misuse of a player. To Coach’s credit, there really wasn’t any depth left to allow a different decision.
My point is that Stokley isn’t injury prone if he plays the slot position. He is a tough guy that plays a lot over the middle where you take big hits, but only a few per game. At #1 the other teams were calling jacks (“hit this player when you get the chance”) to wear him down.
Royal is the same type of player. He is more of a speed-slot than Stokley, but is also not the kind of guy you want taking too many hits. Both have the potential to be overused (in my opinion).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Good points
Stokely can take a pop across the middle (and willingly so) – as a #1 he was getting hit way more, and in different ways.
And probably a year or two behind Stokely helps Royal not just learn the position, the technique and the trraining but allows him to absorb fewer blows. It is true that a guy like that only has so many years he can take the punishment. No use using up Royal’s body while he is till learning the game, and how to care for his body as a professional athlete.
you're high
Michael Fabiano really knows nothing about football outside of regression analysis and stat extrapolation. If it doesn’t have to do with fantasy football, his opinion is worthless.
Who were you responding to kwool?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 18, 2008 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Questoin.
Is kwool a guy or a gal? I would guess a guy, but I don’t want to offend anyone by using the wrong pronoun.
Anyhow, I can’t recall having discussed anything with him before, so I am a bit surprised that the first thing I get is rather offensive. We generally have higher standards around here.
BTW, I think the response was to my post (it lines up that way).
And looking back I think the issue is over my statement about Nalen.
Go So Cal. I am the bigger one.
Amir
Good points. Here’s my thinking. Wiegmann is insurance for Nalen, and to a degree for Hamilton. He is older, and will only be around for a year (two at most). Stieger is the future at OC. Because of the risk to Nalen and Hamilton, he serves (along with Wiegmann) as a back-up for both OC and OG.
So why kick out Harris? Well he’s an OT, not an OC or OG (which is already covered with depth). I’m not counting his injury against him. But Clady was already brought in to start at OT (not a good sign for Harris), and Kuper was named the starter at the other OT position (also not a good sign for Harris). Pears is given the tough job of competing with a rookie for the start (and Pears was starting last year!). So this leaves Harris to compete with Kuper, and we’ve heard nothing about Harris ranging from the announcements of Clady and Kuper being projected starters, all the way through camp so far. It just sounds like, post injury, the coaches aren’t impressed.
I’m not sure Pittman is being brought in as insurance against Torain. I think there is a chance that Pittman spells or rotates Young, and Torain is being brought in to develop behind Pittman this year. As the year goes on, Torain may get some shots at short yardage situations. If he pans out, he might start along with Young later in the season.
This is all just my opinion, and your reasoning is as solid as mine is. Who knows what the coaching staff is thinking? Good thoughts, and your 2 cents is worth a heck of a lot more than that.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Eh
First I have to contradict you on Harris. He is a Guard and Tackle. He played both in college, and many draft “experts” thought that he was a better fit for OG in the NFL. The day we picked him Shanny said that Harris’ versatility made him valuable to the team, and it was obvious that he would be moved inside if he couldn’t cut it at guard.
This is pretty normal. It happens almost every year. Big/slow WR’s move to TE. Big/slow TE’s move to tackle (Lepsis was one, Buffalo’s pro Bowl LT is another). College tackles who are a bit slow move to guard (Kuper was a OT at college level too, and there are a tone of others). So there is no reason to be down on Harris just because he wasn’t athletic enough to play tackle. He could still turn into a great OG.
And given Wiegmanns age and availability (If we cut him, no one is going to sign the dude-he was a FA for a reason), I just don’t think it’s smart to keep him on our roster if both Hamilton and Nalen are healthy for week 1. We can cut him with the promise that we would pick him up again if either Nalen of Hamilton get injured-that would be pretty safe.
On the other hand, if we cut Harris, other teams will pick him up. We need to protect our young draft picks. This dude is an investment. 2007 3rd round pick. We got to give him a shot. We have to be patient with our draft picks.
Another issue: My feeling is that you are counting way too much on K-Lich (or Stieger as you like to call him). He is a Center and I am not sure he can do a good job at Guard. There was a nice article on MVN about his performance at the Senior Bowl you might want to check out. He hasn’t even practiced yet. And it takes interior linemen a year or two to develop in our system.
I just don’t think we can count on Stieger at all this year. That’s why I want us to keep another interior guy.
Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?
Some more thoughts on your thoughts
(Great avatar by the way)
Outside of being a third round pick who was injured last year, have you heard anything from the end of the regular season until now about Harris? I’ve heard compliments and projected starts for several players, but not a word about Harris.
If he has already lost the OT job he was originaly going to take, why do you think he might get the nod at a position he wasn’t brought in for? I understand that he can play guard, but if he can’t even be mentioned at the position he is supposed to have come on the team for…
I think we brought in Wiegmann because Shanhan wasn’t comfortable with anyone starting for Nalen or Hamilton. This includes Harris. The other positions are covered (OT – Clady, Kuper, Pears). If Wiegmann was brought in to get cut, what does this say about Harris, who was already here? We also brought in K-Lich as well. That also show little faith in the depth at OG (if you’re talking about Harris).
By the way, I tried to get the K-Lich thing going, but a couple of folks pointed out that the name sounds kind of annoying. I’ve been trying Stieger recenty, but haven’t made up my mind.
Last, if we are going to talk in favorable terms about Harris moving to OG, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to talk about K-Lich playing OC or OG. Both have injury issues, but K-Lich was picked up in the draft recently, while Harris has been out a year with no word from camp so far.
It’s not a big point of contention. Whichever way we go, I’m confident the Broncos will have a solid prospect.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess I am stuck on the whole draft thing
(thanks. It’s one of my all time favorite pics. I have the video too)
Right now, I hate the idea of another 3rd round pick going to waste so much that I will make any argument for the guy making the team. But I try to be logical.
I tend to look at roster and depth chart in a 3 year projection. Being too short sighted can lead to too much signing and cutting or trying to fix and immediate need—the type of crap that got us into this mess in the first place. We were a winning team, and Shanny’s impatience with the roster led to bad dicisions.
So, looking at a 3 year deal. Clady is set at LT. K-Lich will be OC. Holland will be RG. Kuper/Pears at RT. This leaves the LG position, which is Hamilton. But Hamilton is 30, and might not stay around for too long. That’s where I see Harris fitting in. He could play LG next year while Hamilton plays Center—giving K-Lich a season or two he needs to learn the system. But in the end, there is a place for him in this team’s future. Guys like Wiegmann have no future with the Broncos.
As you said in another post, roster decisions can depend on team philosophy. Do we want another Sam Adams/Simion Rice season? Or do we want to get some young guys and develop a couple of players?
I am not that concerned with the lack of press. I admit that there hasn’t been much noise about Harris. Guys like Dumervil and Marshall made a lot of noise in camp when they were rookies, but their position has more “Action,” and they are a pair of pro bowl caliber guys.
Crowder didn’t make much noise last year, and he isn’t making much noise this year, but I am sure that he will be fine. Moss just got a note that he was healthy again, but if he wasn’t the first round choice he wouldn’t even get that mention. Clady gets covered because he is the #12 pick, and that’s a big deal. But honestly, how much coverage has Kuper been getting? Not that much. We don’t hear much about any O-lineman unless they are injured or changing position or something.
So just because he isn’t getting press doesn’t mean he isn’t doing alright. Some of that has to do with who the press wants to cover
Go So Cal. I am the bigger one.
Another Example.
Let’s go back to last year about this time.
All the talk was about Kuper taking over RG. He was the projected starter. There was very little written or said about Holland. Very few people gave him a chance to make the team, given that he wasn’t your typical Broncos lineman size. So we go into training camp and Kuper gets bumped down. Holland takes over. Everyone says it’s a temporary move, but Holland never let go. Press coverage isn’t all that indicative of what’s going to happen.
Another point: When Hamilton went down, Meyers took over at LG, not Kuper. If Nalen’s injury hadn’t opened up the LG spot (by Meyers moving to Center) then Kuper would have never seen the field last year. So how is it that Kuper, who was ranked lower by the coaches than both Meyers and Holland, is suddenly such a hot commodity? Sure, he did a decent job at LG once he got on the field, but that is a completely different from RT. I give Kuper a 50% chance at becoming our starting RT.
Go So Cal. I am the bigger one.
To me...
..the differenece in the Adams/Rice scenario is that Wiegmann isn’t on the team to start at all. With two of our starters as major injury risks (Nalen and Hamilton) it only makes sense to bring in a veteran back-up.
As far as Harris not making any news, there are two kinds of news.
True, there doesn’t have to be any news about a player who is doing just fine. But in the case of Harris, we are hearing great things about other players on OL, and nothing on Harris. (Clady – Sweet Feet, Kuper – announced as projected starter, etc).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 18, 2008 2:47 AM MDT up reply actions
First Post!
I’ve been reading MHR for a few weeks now and I really enjoy your reports on the Broncos HT. I only joined yesterday and I thought maybe I could make a contribution to this great site.
That being said, I agree with many of your cuts. I think that Martinez is out because of all the talent around him and with the addition of Royal and JWill as returners. Mike Bell is my next cut; again, we are just very deep at the RB position. Liek you said, we can’t keep four tight ends, so one has to go. I think that will be Mustard, because he is injured, and Jackson has been a starter and is a better receiver.
That’s half my cuts.. Now it’s getting harder. I think Polumbus and Hackney will make the practice squad, and Aldridge could get a nod there as well. Ikept Hall because he was effective last year in spurts, and if we keep his attempts per game down he should produce. Lichtensteiger stays because he is a beast, and our future at center. I wouldn’t risk losing him on waivers by sending him to the practice squad.
On the note of centers, why don’t we try out Weigmann at guard? I was forced to watch him week after week here in KC (ugh.) and he is a good athlete and adept at pulling. He also has great run blocking technique.
Overall, I think that would be a pretty good offense that could gel later in the season and put up big numbers. I’m just a little worried that it might take the young guys time to get to know the system and each other, so I’m afraid the beginning of the season might be a little rocky.
Why do I live in Kansas City?
Welcome
And thanks for the points. Especially on Wiegmann. Tough for him, though that there is a lot of G depth. OTOH, his versatility may keep him around.
Here’s hoping the preseason is rocky, and the regular season smooth sailing to the top of the AFC West.
papigrande
Excellent first post! Excellent points all around, and I’m glad you joined and spoke up! Now you need to write your first fanpost and be a star!
I think WIegmann’s age works against him. He was part of a weak OL, but I feel he was good individually. I think he has a good year left in him, and may have to step in (given Nalen’s injury last year and his age). On the other hand, with Hamilton being a major injury risk at LG, I think that either Wiegmann or Stieger or both will end up with significant playing time. I’m thinking that (regardless of my depth chart or even whatever Denver comes up with), Wiegmann would take the first back-up role at either OG or OC. If a second injury happens, Wiegmann (the veteran) takes the OC spot and Wiegmann takes the OG spot. Either way, if Wiegmann works out, he will be the OC next year or the year after.
I also like your point on Mustard’s injury. If Jackson makes the TE squad and Mustard doesn’t, that could be one of the prime reasons (along with Guru’s point in the first comment). I’m pulling for Mustard, but I can see your injury point and Guru’s point about the great depth on the OL.
Again, great job, and good to hear from you. Stick around, and I hope we all hear more from you soon!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Welcome!!
Glad to see you, PapiGrande! Anything you can add will be a welcome addition to the site and we look forward to hearing your thoughts!
-TSG
www.milehighreport.com
by John Bena on Jun 17, 2008 9:59 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Guru
You guys are all so nice over here, it feels good to be welcome on a site. I wish I would have found it sooner :)
Why do I live in Kansas City?
Better late than never!!
We are a great group over here and always have room for more!
-TSG
www.milehighreport.com
And the cool South Park avatar scores some high points as well!
See ya at Casabonitas (if you and I can get out to Denver some time)!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, but nobody beats Jarah.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jun 17, 2008 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah! She'd love me if she knew me!
(and if Mrs. HT wasn’t around to beat me up!)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Great comments
To save some key strokes I’ll agree with many of the comments posted here. It looks like a mixture of the same names getting kicked around. My cuts:
Martinez: Obviously due to Royal
Aldridge: Not big enough
Bell: Time to go, isnt needed
Pittman: Depends on the Train
Hackney: More depth needed on the OL than a passer
Mustard: Because I like Jackson more
Well theres my six, but now I need a spot for Gandy. Somehow he’s going to make this team, but the OL is the toughest area. Only training camp will help weed out another spot. We’ll wait and see.
"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"
Alex Karras
by Denver Diehard on Jun 17, 2008 10:16 AM MDT reply actions
My take...
My take on HT’s selections are:
1. I agree the cuttng Hall. He wasn’t all that great last year… we just didn’t have anyone else to come in. If we are so in favor of hanging onto guys who had a couple good games than M. Bell would still be our feature back. Plus I think we learned our lesson not trading away M.Bell when he had some value. I don’t think we will make that mistake with Hall.
2. That said. Mike Bell is done.
3. Hackney. We don’t carry three.
4. Martinez. It is too bad. I think we was just turning the corner. However, with the reloading season, he finds himself out-classed.
5. Mustard. Doesn’t have a spot at the begining of the season. But with injuries will be picked back up half way through the season. Same reason others have posted. His value is blocker TE. Graham as the blocking TE has this secured and Scheff the reciever TE is a injury scare. That gives Jackson that spot. If injuries to Scheff were not a concern, I think Mustard wins the spot. Blame Scheff if you don’t like this one.
6. The Last spot is extremely difficult. I think it comes down to three people. Aldridge – Parker – Harris. I love all three. However, I don’t think I will have to make a choice. Camp, I hate to say it, will open this final spot due to an injury. So I think all three will be on the team. However, in my dream senario, Hillis will have a monster camp.
We show Sapp the door and Pitman serves as the almost famed Bronco Half Back turned Full Back (Backup).
by YellowStoneBronco on Jun 17, 2008 10:48 AM MDT reply actions
I like your dream scenario
I, too, have high hopes for Hillis. I hope he shows something in camp!
re: 4 - I, too, doubt Martinez can hang with this depth, alas. I think he is turning a corner, and he did get a lot of action in the mini-camp and made some snazzy catches - so maybe he pushes Parker out (perhaps via ST play). But I fear his days are numbered.
The real shame is he has been working his butt off with the Broncos training staff to put on weight… and it could be all for naught.
I would drop...
Hackney, Aldridge and Martinez to the practice squad, and release Mustard, Bell, Parker and Hall. That leaves an extra space to pick up any need after possible injuries in camps and pre-season (knock on wood).
Six players go to practice squad, correct? That leaves a few spots for defensive players (Harris, Beck, etc.) while still having solid players for the offense just in case they’re needed.
"I could never quite get the hang of Thursdays..."
O Roster
I don’t think Pittman makes the team – he’s too old, the Bucs (who aren’t deep at RB) let him go, and he sat around for quite awhile before the Broncos picked him up. He’s insurance, but if Hillis and Torain stay healthy, he’s gone. Sapp makes the team – he’s too good a football player (he can play FB, TB, and special teams), he’ll be one of the few veteran backs, and Shanahan likes him. I thought Mike Bell looked good his rookie year, but somehow he landed in Shanahan’s dog house. Look for him to be traded. So, Sapp and Hillis at FB, Young, Torain, and Hall at RB. Alridge to the PS. Pears, Harris, and Kuper all make the team, but I think Wiegmann is gone if Gandy shows anything, and assuming Nalen and Hamilton both are good to go, which is my bet. That’s still carrying nine linemen with Lichtensteiger, one more than normal (but Lichtensteiger might end up on the PUP – I’m suspicious about how they’ve been limiting him so far due to his “slow” recovery from labrum surgery). Marshall and Royal are locks at wide, and we’ll probably just carry five, and we’ll have to see who the other three are, but my bet is Stokely and Colbert, then either Jackson or speedy Parker. Broncos usually carry five tight ends, counting Leach, the LS. Jackson makes the team, but Hillis may be versatile enough to let Mustard go.
Good stuff Bradley!
I think Pittman makes the team for a few reasons. For one, without him we only have Torain as a power runner (and he’s an untested rookie). Also, I think he fit’s in with Denver’s running system much better than TB’s. He is older, but I think he’ll be solid enough to potentialy start off rotating or spelling Young (depending on how durable Young looks in camp). Torain should be his eventual replacement.
Leach makes the team under my chart as the long snapper (though he will be listed as TE).
If the decision at WR came down to Jackson or Parker, Jackson would be the clear keeper (in my opinion). I think Jackson and Colbert are competing to start at #2 in most folks opinions right now.
I know there there is some thinking that Hillis might be versatile enough to play at FB and TE (and the positions are simular), but I don’t see Hillis as a sound TE. On the other hand, Hillis might surprise many of us (myself included) and be a dark horse pick to end up as a RB instead of “just” FB. Right now I think his skill set makes him the type of FB that Denver craves (good blocker and short yardage runner who can catch some goal line screens).
I think he run blocks better than pass blocks, and can catch in limited roles, as well as power running short yards. That makes him a better fit at FB than TE in my opinion.
While I disagree with some points, all of your points are reasonable and backed up with solid arguments. At the end of training camp I bet we each score some “told you so”s.
: )
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Also...
Only three RBs is really thin. It is an injury risk position, and four or five RBs is more typical than 3 for Denver (who runs a committee back system).
But what do I know? I have three TEs, when Denver keeps four most years (plus Leach, the TE that plays LS on STs).
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Great breakdown
of Hillis’ skills. It does sound like he has the perfect Broncos FB skillset. Interesting to see that you see his upside as a HB. I thought he was too big and slow for all that.
I had it in my mind that some scouts thought his pass catching was better than just short plays. But I didn’t see enough SEC ball to say myself. For that reason, I see his upside as TE – maybe a pipe dream because it would be amazing for the roster if he could fill in there in a pinch.
He one cuts
(in his limited runs). He has the potential to be a power RB. I only throw this out because Denver rarely goes after a FB.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Lot's of great stuff from everyone!
Lots of points on Aldridge being too small, and lots of point on Jackson staying instead of Mustard. A few comments on keeping Harris on the OL as well.
Keep the good stuff coming and remember, if you disagree with dropping a player then you need to put down a player you would drop instead. That’s what makes it tricky!
Again, everyone is doing a great job!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
How about this scenario?
Pittman looks slow but powerful in camp, while the other HB’s are electric runners. Pittman slides over as #1 FB, and Sapp or Hillis gets the boot (most likely Sapp – who has been oft-injured himself)
This frees up a spot for Hall as an HB – and we have an excellent stable with Young, Torain, Hall and Alridge, plus a FB with serious HB experience, Each of these guys bring something unique to the table, except perhaps Hall whose running style is a lot like Selvin’s IMHO.
I wish, for the Mile High Salute’s sake, that I could find a way where I see Mike Bell on the squad. I just don’t see it – he is not a good enough FB to displace Sapp or Pittman, and isn’t a dynamic enough HB to displace any of the forementioned runners. Oh we hardly knew ye, Mike Bell.
A lot of folks discuss Pittman in a FB role.
You certainly aren’t alone in your thinking. But I like him better as a RB. We just drafted a FB (a rare move for Denver), and there really isn’t anything wrong with Sapp either. In fact, Sapp figures in prominantly in most of our goal line playbook.
I like Pittman as a power RB, in part, because the only other power RB we have right now is rookie Torain.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 17, 2008 4:55 PM MDT up reply actions
If Torain has a big preseason
what happens to Pittman? Off the squad? Last man off the bench? FB?
I agree Sapp is a big part of the play book (especially the red zone/goal line) but I think he is dispensable – the drafting of Hillis says to me the coaching staff thinks as much. If Hillis shows the hands/skills to run our little bootleg pass to the FB, I still see Sapp potentially getting dropped. But then he doesn’t make a lot of dough, so keeping him around for insurance/teaching/etc might be worth it.
If Torain has a good camp...
...under my chart Pittman still makes the team. I think we have to carry at least four RBs. Pittman doesn’t make the final cut (as with all players) if he sucks in camp or gets hurt.
I can see Sapp getting dropped too, but we keep a couple of guys at FB most years. Remember, Sapp can (and has) played RB before, and adds depth at both positions.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 18, 2008 2:51 AM MDT up reply actions
It is interesting
that we all seem to expect a big camp from Torain – perhaps we are all wooed by his size and potential. But he is coming off of injury and is a totally unproven NFL player. I am thinking maybe he has an okay camp, or shows lingering effects of injury.. and he ends up on the PS Then, I see the RB position shaking out as
FB – Sapp, Hillis
RB – Young, Pittman, Hall, Bell (maybe?)
PS – Alridge and/or Torain
That, to me, looks like a way more experienced stable, if less explosive.
Or keep 3 (drop Bell – especially since Sapp can run the ball, as you have noted) and free up a spot for Harris or Martinez/Parker. With two RB’s on the PS, keeping 3 would be less dangerous, no?
You make sense
Again, there are good reasons all around.
My problem with PS is that a PS player can get snagged by another team. The points you make on Torain are solid, but Denver also used a pick on him, so they must think something of his talent. Denver rarely wastes a pick on RB, even the late picks. Those late picks often pan out.
I can easily see your chart being the final one. I might do it differently, but the point is that we both have sound reasoning, and it could easily go either way. What I feel good about is that no one is really going off the deep end with ideas. You and others are coming up with ideas that the team could easily go with.
I’m not snobbish enough to think I have the corner on good ideas. For example, when Guru’s excellent position-by-position break down comes out, and when he gives his roster picks, I will be inclined to favor his reasoning over my own. While I’ve coached HS defense, Guru has written about the Broncos (and hosted net casts about the team) much longer than I have even been a member. Folks like you have also watched the Broncos for a long time, and I think that a point is reached where my knowledge of Xs and Os doesn’t account for a lot of issues that many fans are up on (such as college ball, drafting, Shanny’s tendancies in camp, and so on ad infinitum). My only real “expertise” is knowledge of systems, strategies, and coaching. This discussion (for example) is about management. That’s why I think everyone’s input is as good, or in some cases better, than mine.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 18, 2008 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Good point about Torain; Info about Hall
The Broncos org is not in the business of wasting away picks on RB’s – and when they do, they cut their losses quickly (e.g. Maurice Clarett). The last thing they want is a talent like Torain getting poached off of the PS…. For that reason alone, I think my proposed depth chart above is a bit flawed. Thanks for pointing out the oversight….
But I enjoy this scenario work – even when a stinker arises. You have to bring everything you know to bear on the situation. In your case, HT, it is serious systems/coaching chops (among a lot of other Broncos knowledge).. In Guru’s case, serious familiarity with and connections to, the team. In my case, a penchant for googling until my eyes pop out….
Certainly don’t sell yourself short – your depth chart looks darn good to me… I will continue to enroll in Mile High University!
In the meantime, Rosenthal over at Rotoworld reports that Hall was running #2 at mini-camp. http://tinyurl.com/57pwfo
Hadn’t seen that nugget reported elsewhere. If it’s true, it sure sinks my theory that Hall has “the least unique skill to offer…”
Wow!
That’s a shocker to me too! Good find!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 19, 2008 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Wish I could substantiate it.
Will be a test of my Intermet scouring skillz. ;-)
Will post if I find anything.
P.S. Been enjoying these back and forths. Thanks for indulging me.
It's one of the things...
...that makes MHR the best.
Anytime my friend.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 19, 2008 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
So Many Great Posts
I thought I’d add a point on Hillis. He’s one of my favorite young players at this juncture. When drafted, he was a strong, toned 240. He’s been living in the weight room when not on the field, and is up to 250. I saw him in some footage for the ESPN blub on B-Marsh. He looked like a rock.
I prefer him as a true fullback, and don’t care for the H-back approach as much, but as a power running option, he looks very good right now.
"And where would be be without women? We would be scarce, sir, damned scarce." Mark Twain
Nice info on Hillis
I hope to see a lot of hole opening hits from him in preseason. A healthy O-Line and a true FB, Maybe S. Young can reach his 2000 yrd goal. I know it is very optimistic. But it is June and we are all optimistic in June.
Another Vote for the Hillis and Pittman FB tandum. Sapp is not bad… It is just he isn’t that great either. I would rather see Pittman backing up both the “Train” and Hillis and have the extra spot (Sapp’s Spot) for Harris or Aldridge.
by YellowStoneBronco on Jun 17, 2008 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Well put on Sapp
It is definitely not that he is bad, but he isn’t that great either. He is just alright – at least in the eyes of the coaching staff or they wouldn’t have brought in so much competition.
OTOH – given his experience in the goal line package, he may beat them all out. Which then leaves the odd man out of Hall/Alridge/Pittman/Torain on the street.
Shanny's approach
on FB (following the SB years) has always been to have hybrid HB/FB guys who could step up in case of injuries, so keeping “only” 3 HB is not so thin. Hillis and Pittman are probably the closest to true FB we’ve had in some time, and even these guys have a great power-running game.
Martinez and Bell are no brainers to get cut, simply due to all the amazing depth at those positions.
Personally, I’m rooting for Mustard – he’s such a versatile guy and has proven over and again that he’s a true team player. But I’m a little concerned about his injury. He may get cut instead of Jackson (who is frequently injured, also, just not currently) and get the yo-yo treatment he got last year.
I’m also in favor of keeping Harris due to his youth and projected versatility, but I honestly don’t know who I would cut otherwise fro the OL. I’m sure camp will produce some injuries and make it easier to sort all this out. Barring significant injuries or bone-headed moves by any rooks, I’m in favor of going with the youth movement over keeping some of the borderline vets- Shanny’s made some bold moves so far this year, he needs to keep the momentum going.
Papigrande welcome.
Great comments from all.
This is what I have:
Bell gone
Hall I’m worried about his duarability, I don’t think he will be productive any where else.
Martinez could hurt later on but I like parkers speed to spread the defnese when we need to open things up
Hackney PS
Jackson I think coach has stated he perfers a blocking TE, I don’t think he’ll keep a downgrade back up to Scheff
#6 I petition the NFL to let me have 54 players. I don’t know who to cut on the line. I guess I wait for Pre-season to weed things out.
by ThorpeBroncosfan on Jun 18, 2008 12:12 AM MDT reply actions
Can anyone clarify...
what the technical process and limits are for the practice squad?
ie..how many players @ each position, does a veteran have to agree to go to the practice squad? Can you designate anyone you want so long as they are a UFA next year…etc etc..
QB (-1): 2 QB Cutler, Ramsey)
– Hackney will go practice squad
RB/FB (-3): 3 TB (Young, Torain, Hall), 1 FB (Hillis or Sapp), 1 Utility (Pittman or Sapp)
The fight for the last roster spot will be Sapp vs. Hall vs. Pittman, 1 will be cut unless Hillis ends up on the practice squad or doesn’t make the team.
– Bell is cut
– Aldridge goes to the practice squad
WR (-1): 6 WR (Marshall, D Jax, Stokley, Royal, Colbert, and either Parker or Martinez)
– Martinez or Parker will be cut unless they can be designated elsewhere
TE (-1): 3 TE (Graham, Sheff, and Jackson)
– Mustard will be cut unless he can be designated elsewhere
No cuts on the O-Line depth chart from above, Denver needs all hands on deck.
Practice Squad
is limited to 8 players, that have not played an accrued full season (or something like that), but you can only be on it 3 seasons. You get paid to be on it, so are under contract week to week, but are for all other purposes a free-agent. I think you can refuse designation, but I am not sure.
See the Wikipedia article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_squad
The reference link at the bottom will net you a full breakdown on a sports agent blog.
HTH.
My Cuts
I feel like 4 RBs and 2 FBs is still too much of a good thing. I can say the same about our TEs. I think if Hillis is as much of a do it all as he was with the ‘Backs then I say we can cut Aldrige and two TEs. If anything goes wrong he can step in as TE or maybe even RB. And if were keeping Larsen, we can use him as the 2nd FB too. We need all the O line help we can get so to rap it up here are my cuts.
Martinez- Man one of the best highlights of the year for me was when he returned that punt. But with Royal and Hall covering duties, there is no need.
Mustard, Jackson- They are really forgetable at best but I do like Jackson so I hope he at least makes the practice squad.
Hackney- I almost peed my pants in fear after J-Cut went down and Ramsey began limping and Leach was warming up. But I think that was a freak thing that hopefully wont happen again.
Bell- No need with two full backs. I hope he prospers somewhere else, but not to a point it makes me jealious.
Aldridge- He could be good in our system but there are 3 four others on our roster who could be even better.
Good stuff.
I don’t think Hillis is the back-up option at TE that others think he is, but you are in good company with your assesment.
Three TEs is reasonable for numbers, even four. Remember that Denver likes the two TE sets, and it is more important than ever with so many defenses using 3-4. Plus, when you use two TE sets because you have two great TEs, you want back-up in case someone goes down (or you’re cutting down the playbook). On the other hand, if you think Hillis can learn the plays for two or three positions in his rookie year (FB, RB, TE), you may have something there. It’s not immpossible. I just think it’s unlikely.
Very good thoughts all around!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
A Question on the TE/H-back Role
Several folks here and around the are talking about the H-back role, and it seems that various people have diferent ideas about it. HT or any of our educated folks, could you give a brief discussion on this?
I ran into this from http://broncos-denver-broncos.blogspot.com/:
Bronco fans may remember Daniel Graham lining up off the LOS as a wing, slot, 40/Z back, H-Back going in motion to kick out, lead, seal, arc release on running plays.
OK, I am quick to admit that I have no idea what he is saying. Help!
There aren't any algorithms for character or courage. There aren't any for stupidity, either.
H-Back
The sentence you cite is gramaticaly incorrect. The author mentions 3 ways to line up, a player type, then 3 assignments. Like many articles folks read (sadly, even a few from the main stream sports folks), this is someone trying to throw out a bunch of terms to impress people. It makes no sense, and sounds like it is written to stroke the author’s ego instead of helping folks to understand the game.
The H-Back role is basicaly a TE who can catch, run, and block indifferently. It is a very rare role, and the term is badly overused (particulary at the NFL level, where they have recently started overusing the term “3 technique” to impress folks). Such a role is more used in the college and HS levels where the defenses aren’t as advanced. It is used out of a two TE set.
The Redskins used an H-Back role, in part, to stop the dominance of Lawrence Taylor. Outside of this, I can’t recall an H-Back in modern pro football.
Some folks at MHR talk about using Hillis as a TE, and in this case they are talking about using him as an H-Back. I think (respectfully) it is not only a little over the top, but would require a major scheme shift for Denver to pull off.
H-Back is different from “HB”. HB means half back (which is a RB who is not a FB). Most folks (including me) use the technicaly incorrect “RB” to refer to a HB. In reality, both a HB and a FB are RB’s. H-Back (rarely called F-Back) is the player type who is a HB/FB/TE hybrid, AND plays the role in a system that provides for the position.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jun 23, 2008 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks, HT!
That covered it in your usual style :)
There aren't any algorithms for character or courage, but you can't coach either
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