Foxworth for starter?

by spock on Jun 2, 2008 1:41 AM MDT Comment 52 comments

I've been a fan of Foxy since he entered the league, and not only because he's a high-character guy. He plays smart, he lays it out on the field, and he rises to the occasion, or so it seems to me. It has also seemed to me that many people have underestimated him, figuring him for trade bait, noting that he's been passed up by Paymah, pretty much consigning him to permanent nicke or dime-back status. Hence my pleasure and excitement at seeing the last section of Mike Klis's article on D-Will:

Foxworth for starter?
And finally in this all-D-Will column, there is his right cornerback position. Dre Bly came in and filled it last year and he's still going to get paid big money this year. But one of the passing-camp observations last week was that Domonique Foxworth, Williams' draft classmate and closest friend among current Broncos, was playing extremely well and is pushing Bly for the starting position.

It's too early to tell how this will turn out, but if he's pushing Bly he's not just playing well for a young player. He's playing well, period. He and Darrent were both precocious, and he played well when Darrent was hurt. I think the fact that he was just a little behind Darrent made people not realize how good he was. If he takes the job away from Bly it can only help us in run support. The reason we've used Foxy at safety, even though it's not his position, is he's a good tackler, and Bly isn't. (That's why he was so unsuited for the cover 2 in Detroit.) I actually thought he would push Bly last year, and was surprised when Paymah seemed to have passed him. Maybe that was a temporary hiccough, and he's now back on track to being as good as we thought he was going to be when he and Darrent showed so much promise that first year. What do y'all think?

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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DO IT

I never liked Bly coming in. Sure hes a risk taker like DWill and all that but he is also weak on the back peddle and hurts his team by not being able to tackle. I think we do a lot more man this year and Foxy edges the dude out!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 2, 2008 7:38 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Foxy

I love Foxy. More than anything for who he is off the field. I would love to see him edge out Bly. I respect Bly but he just never filled the void left by D-Will. I think it would be really appropriate to see Fox take the job.

by ThorpeBroncosfan on Jun 2, 2008 9:14 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I have a lot of thoughts on Foxworth.

1. First, I agree that he is underrated. He was passed by Paymah for the nickel position in ‘07 (and I think rightfuly so), but I think a lot of that was because he (Fox) was being missused in a SAF role. If Fox were playing soley as a CB, he would be terrific. He would be our #2 by now if not for time wasted at SAF.

2. Second, I think Fox has a decent chance of being our future #2, or even #1 CB. We do have several huge contracts coming up, including Bailey and Bly, as well as (soon thereafter) Fox and Pay. My hope is that we can keep Bailey without paying too much more, and keep Bly if possible. That may be hard.

3. I wouldn’t put down Bly. He plays his position a certain way, and it has made him second only to Bailey in a several year stretch in terms of INTs. Bly’s weakness (in my opinion) isn’t that he gambles or doesn’t back peddle or tackle well; it’s that he doesn’t get used properly by having a dedicated 2 deep SAF scheme to maximize his style.

4. I am one of the people that likes the trade route. It’s not a dis on Fox. I think he’s valuable enough to garner a high pick, and we have a lot of depth right now at CB. However, as we move closer to the renegotiation times for all four of our CBs, this will complicate matters. It will be hard to keep all four players, and perhaps the best route may be to trade Bly for a decent pick, and then to use the pick for a young CB talent.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 9:26 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

So the question I have for HT

and I am not knocking any of your points I think they are all fair even if we disagree a little, is do you want 5 solid years from Champ and Dre or do you want 5 Solid years from Champ, and Foxy and 5 more years after that from Foxy at #1? I am one who thinks you need to hold your youth and your leadership until they become one (i.e. Jay Cutler). I woudl be willing to let Bly go at the end of his contract in order to secure Foxy and Paymah after Bailey retires. It might not be a popular opinion but losing DWill tragicly and then trading away Foxy followed by Paymah staying strong Nickle for then next 5 seasons tells me the Draft coudl have gone better. No disrespect to DWill who is my second favorite player all time, but we went out nd got THREE CB’s that year and to only have 1 of them on the roster next year and then to have Foxy go on to replace Champ as the overall best would be hard to live up to no matter what the pick generated. As a redskins fan if they would trade Champ for Clinton Portis NOW? Hinsight is always 20-20 and I dont want to have 20-15 looking BACK on Foxy! Still Dre is here and we shoudl use his ability while we have him and his big money contract. After that though Dre will be 35 or so. do we want to re sign him for the money he will want at 35? Champ will play team ball I think at 34 when his contract is up. So I forsee Champ #1 Foxy #2 and Paymah #3 here soon.

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 2, 2008 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You make a lot of very solid points.

I think we can sign Fox for less with Bly on the roster. By being third or fourth on the depth chart, he doesn’t command as high of a salary. Heck, I’d really want to keep all four!

Long term, I think we work hard to keep Bailey. Shanahan has always wanted a true shut down corner, and he won’t want to give him up. The sticking point will be Champ’s alread high salary. The way to work this might be to maintain the salary at the current level, with Champ playing alongside his brother as a nice incentive to stay in Denver. I think this is possible. Bly is not only our #2, but one of the top 10 CBs in the League (in my opinion). I really want to keep him, since the AFC West now has probably 6 of the top fifteen or twenty #1 CBs spread out over 1 and 2 on each team. We need to stay competitive there.

The draft decision to get DWill, FOx, and Pay was terrific. Nobody saw the tragedy coming, and nobody can fault Denver for it. What was brilliant was replacing DWill with the same sort of player (a risk taker) with even more experience. It helped to sooth the fans a little, and was just a good football move. Wasting Fox at SAF hindered his effectiveness (and goes exactly to the point I’ve been writing about the last few days: Don’t overuse players! Let them play and specialize in their best role that helps the team!).

I think Paymah is ahead of FOx right now, but if Fox can get back to being a CB I think he passes Pay again. (I really like the fact that Denver brought in true safeties to help keep our CBs at the CB position).

I agree on the idea that Bailey and Bly go before Pay and Fox. But I’m ready to part with them yet. Because we haven’t done a good job staggering, we face major contract issues with all four players in short order. The best route may be to keep our top CBs (since many of us expect Denver’s break out year to be 2009 or 2010), and invest in the draft with one of our younger CBs. We could also knock out Bly, but now we bump up two CBs on the depth chart instead of one (and this would be a decrease in effectiveness). The only way I go for getting rid of Bly is if we get a high pick for him, and if we draft heavy on CBs to build up for the eventual departure of Bailey (and as an immediate replacement for Bly).

As much as I like FOx and Pay both, I see either as being an effective #2, and nothing more. I also believe that both excell as nickels.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good points all around

Totally true that Foxy has the upside to be a #2 CB – #1 might be pushing it. Also totally true that he is a lot cheaper to sign as a nickel (assuming he wins that camp battle) with Bly around than later….

Love the insight, HT. that Bly eased the loss of D-Will – never thought about it like that, but Foxy or Paymah jumping right in there would have been awkward, and emotionally difficult all around. Also great point that the commitment to restocking the safety position could be seen as a move to enable Foxy to become the elite CB they drafted him to be.

I can’t get the idea out of my head though that the best case scenario has Foxy winning the nickel spot during camp, signing a long contract extension, getting back into CB mode during the first games of the season and finally pushing Bly for the #2 and bumping him into the nickel. I can’t help but think that playing the nickel would hide some of Bly’s issues, and put him in a great position to use his ball hawking skills. But this may just be me misunderstanding the nickel back position…

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with the position you outline in your third paragraph.

I think that’s a good plan. I also think it is possible that the Jack Williams signing may be a potential move to ease the future loss of a major CB.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bly as nickel

So as a coach, then, you can agree that Bly in the nickel (assuming everything behind him was good) could be ridiculous? I don’t knwo why I am obsessed with this, but it feels so right to me.

The only thing I don’t like about it is is that it would lower Bly’s value in a trade… although maybe it also means resigning him as an older nickel would be reasonable.

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes and no.

If Fox were to beat Bly for the #2 spot I would be in favor of it. It would be a good set up.

On the other hand, there is more to coaching than what happens on the field. You have to deal with human beings. I imagine that Bly would not want to play much longer for a team as a nickel. He would want more money somewhere where there isn’t as much depth. He would also not play at his best, no matter how good of a guy he is. It’s hard for a guy to go all out if he sees himself as “less valuable”.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right!

This does totally assume that a pro-bowler like Bly would even play the nickel…. without grousing up a storm, or at least feeling disrespected. That need for a sense of “value” reminds me of what you wrote about chemistry – you gotta have it to win, but just having it won’t mean you will win…

Isn’t that how it is in life, anyway? When you feel valued, you give a little something more? I know it goes for me in the consulting biz.

Thanks for reminding me of the human element, HT. As always, your insight is stunning.

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 11:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Foxworth vs. Paymah

I think Paymah is ahead of FOx right now, but if Fox can get back to being a CB I think he passes Pay again.

I realize it’s putting a large burden on one sportswriter’s brief comment, but if Foxy is pushing Bly hard doesn’t that imply that he’s already passed Paymah? No one has said Paymah is pushing Bly. Or am I missing something, such as they’re not competing at the same CB position? I like your comment about replacing D-Will with the same kind of player. When D-Will was getting burned so many times during 2006 I didn’t realize it was growing pains, that he was learning what he could get away with, what his limits were. Players like that seem to develop more rapidly than players who don’t push the envelope and find out what they can and can’t do. I don’t know if D-Will would have been a better cover corner than Bly by 2007 if he had lived, but I do think he’d have had a breakout season and become a top CB.

That you rate Bly one of the top 10 CBs in the league says a lot. If Foxworth is pushing Bly does it mean that Bly at the moment isn’t playing at that level, or that Foxy is? I’ve been assuming, on the basis of no evidence, however, that Bly hasn’t slipped, that Foxy is just really coming on! Or is that just my bias?

I do hope we’re able to re-sign Baily when the time comes. No matter how well Foxy, Paymah, and Williams turn out, the Broncos aren’t going to be as strong at CB without Champ. I think this year, with Champ and whoever plays opposite him benefitting from a strong pass rush, the Broncos are going to be even stronger at CB than in 2006, when teams were picking on a still developing D-Will.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 2, 2008 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of great thoughts there Spock (as always!)

”...if Foxy is pushing Bly hard doesn’t that imply that he’s already passed Paymah?”

I look at that in two ways. One, perhaps Fox is pushing Bly hard, but not for the depth position. The other way I might look at it is that Pay did pass Fox last year (as demonstrated by nickel starting time), but Fox has passed Pay even earlier than I would have thought. If so, great!

“That you rate Bly one of the top 10 CBs in the league says a lot. If Foxworth is pushing Bly does it mean that Bly at the moment isn’t playing at that level, or that Foxy is?”

This may sound like a semantics game, but I think Fox could push Bly for his position as a #2 CB playing for the Broncos, without edging him as a top ten CB in the League. I think it’s very difficult to rate players 1 through whatever. For example, there isn’t the same distance between the first and second best CBs in the League and the 22nd and 23rd. Also, how do we actually measure a player’s worth to put them in order? Just by stats?

I think there are a lot of differences between the two in terms of style. For example, as great as Bly is, his style is dependent on having a SAF behind him (so that his gambles pay off). Foxworth is not a gambler in the mold of Bly. In fact, Foxworth is a “track and kill” kind of player (which is my favorite). You won’t see as many INTs, and you may see a lot of receptions, but you should see very little in the way of yards after catch.

On a team like Denver’s (where we are not using two coverage SAFs), Bly isn’t really being allowed to play to his potential. In DET he at least had two deep SAFs (and racked up a lot of INTs), but there the problem was that he was stuck in a zone.

So if you understand what I’m saying, Bly may be the better overall CB, but Fox might do better in our system. By the way, please don’t take any of this as a knock on Bly. I would prefer that we play two deep SAFs, but even without the 2nd deep SAF, Bly is still a killer. I expect that with an overall improved defense, Bailey will shut down the strong side and invite a few INTs on Bly’s side.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 3, 2008 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

More on Bly and Foxworth

One, perhaps Fox is pushing Bly hard, but not for the depth position.

I’m not quite clear what you’re saying here, but my guess is you mean that even if Foxy would be a better starter than Paymah he wouldn’t necessarily be a better nickle back. If so I understand what you’re saying and also that you’re saying it’s one of two possibilities. Naturally, as high as I am on Foxworth, I prefer the second. Regarding your critique of Foxy’s and Bly’s styles, and who would be better in which situation, it only reinforces what I’ve learned, that if I ask you a good question I’ll get a wonderful in-depth analysis in return. If you find time I’d love to hear more about the “track and kill” kind of player.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 3, 2008 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sort of what I mean.

In the first instance, I mean that perhaps Bly is getting pushed to play better because Foxworth is a theat, but perhaps not a real enough threat to unseat him.

In the second, I’m saying that based on style, Bly may be the better overall CB even if Foxworth better fits our team’s style. Bly is very dependent on having a SAF behind him to go for those fantastic INTs, but we don’t often give him one. Fox’s play is different.

“Track and Kill” is slang with some coaches, but far from being an official term. Track and kills are DBs who typicaly don’t go for the INT, but wait for the ball to come to the receiver. Then they either charge in for the hit (“heavy hitter”) and time the impact for maximum power (Atwater, Lynch) or they go for the sure tackle (“track and kill”). The tracker doesn’t get a lot of flashy INTs (“gambler”) or fumbles (“heavy hitter”), but they do prevent opponents from getting much yards after a catch.

Bailey, despite his high INT rate, is a “tracker”. He prefers to play off the line, and charge in when the ball comes (unless the route is longer, where he sticks to his man). His blazing speed gets him into position to get the INTs, even though he is playing more often to cover his man instead of gambling.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 4, 2008 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

...Unless

Jack Williams works out :)

by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

About your thoughts . . .

Agree on nos. 1 and 2. Foxy sacrificed to help the team, but it hurt his development. Is it because, as you’ve repeatedly pointed out, SAF and CB are so different, that spending time at the former has affected his ability at the latter position? Not just because he was spending less time at CB, but because he was having to hone different skills? Excellent point about the SAF scheme not maximizing Bly’s style. I wasn’t thinking that Foxy might beat out Bly due to being a better tackler, by the way. I think if he beats him out it’ll be because he covers better. I was thinking more that if he does beat out Bly, due to better coverage skills, his better tackling would be a bonus. Don’t quite agree on no. 4, but appreciate and respect your thinking. It’s just a feeling I have about Foxy, that he has a lot of Rod Smith in him and is the kind of guy who, the more he’s on the field, will find ways to win regardless of stats. Maybe I’m being pigheaded, but I really don’t like the idea of trading him. It’s Bly I’d rather trade, although I don’t know if he’d garner a decent pick if Foxy beats him out. My main concern, which you touch on in another comment, is how Bly will handle it if he does get beat out. My feeling is he’ll want to be where he can start. He might pull a Walker and pout.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 2, 2008 9:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's my thinking.

Sometimes a depth chart isn’t just about putting guys in order 1,2,3. A lot of it is the human element. Making a guy happy, encouraging another guy, warning another guy. It’s not the simple “Madden” game formula of maximizing players based on stats or ability. (I’m not calling you a Madden coach, or saying that you are apporaching the subject this way. I know you don’t think like that).

It might be a good idea to let a very (very) good vet keep his spot, and let the younger guy wait and be a little hungry for his turn and keep both guys on the team and happy. The alternative might be to let the young guy move up, but lose the very good vet. Now you have a good 1, 2 punch, but you’ve lost the 1,2,3 punch you could have had.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 3, 2008 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your thinking

Actually, the thought had occurred to me but, given the NFL’s rep as a pure meritocracy, I didn’t know if teams, and the Broncos in particular, would actually do something like that. I know that in business there are various reasons – connections, social skills, sucking up, who’s more likely to pout – why the person who, strictly speaking, is the better performer doesn’t always win out, and furthermore I don’t think it’s necessarily always a bad thing. What I don’t know is how much, given the ideology of merit-based promotion, coaches can handle the cognitive dissonance of not acting purely on merit. I suspect that, to the extent that they can, it’s licensed by the mantra of “what’s best for the team.” At first glance such a solution seems unfair to Fox, or to any candidate who seemingly is discriminated against because he’s more mature/less likely to pout – the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But
I suspect there’s a tacit rule subscribed to by players and coaches alike that the tie goes to the incumbent that, as in boxing, the challenger has to unequivocally beat the champion to take his title away. I think Foxy will have to establish a clear superiority to take Bly’s job away, but that if he does it’ll happen.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 3, 2008 9:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it is much more meritocracy than the business world is...

...because the bottom line (winning) is more clear than business (profit margins).

In the example I’m giving, it may pay to keep three great players than to keep two. If our #1 CB rates a 10, our #2 rates an 8, and our #3 rates a 9 then our nickle package’s average rates a “9”. But if we bump our #3 up to #2, and our new #3 (former #2 player) then plays like a 6, we’ve lost a good group with a new “8.3”

If a guy clearly beats someone out, the promotion will happen. But a tiny bit of leeway will go to a vet with a high paycheck (read cap penalty potential) who plays consistently well.

Of course, if someone just doesn’t show up (I’m not mentioning Henry by name)...

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 4, 2008 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

that personally last year D-Wills would have played better than Bly if he was there to be compared to him. Comin into his 3rd year he was ready for his breakout season. Bly had more experience and probably better ball skills but I believe D-wills was a better cover corner, a better more physical tackler besides being the fastest person on the team besides paymah. Even though Paymah has improved as a cb ( he was drafted before foxy) the only reason foxy wasnt playin nickel alot was because he was playin saf alot. I would like the forseeable future to include all the corners we have now but knowin thats not a possibility.this is how i think its goin to break down. depending on how bly plays this year….i think hes goin to be asked to take a pay cut next year. i dont think hes as good as alot of people assume he is. he was brought in a “slower and not as physical verison” of d-wills whick didnt work to well last year. i personally think foxy and paymah would have played better as starters last year than bly did…but i also feel he was hindered by the scheme and tryin to play the run since we werent holding up well in our run d. when champ gets up in age i would like to see him move to saf and still ahve either foxy and bly or fox and paymah (if we dont have bly) starting…still factoring in we have jack williams in the mix as well. what do you all think..?

by d2soulja on Jun 2, 2008 1:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I pretty much agree with this

Except that Bly is about a year younger than Bailey so he would probably be the first candidate to move to safety. Personally, I would start the transition this year to see if it will take. Especially if Foxworth is playing well enough to start and with Paymah in the wings as a solid nickel CB.

One thing that I give Coach Shanahan a ton of credit for is not looking back and worrying about sunken costs. If the team is better with Bly on the bench then that is what will happen, regardless of the size of Bly’s contract. You cannot undo the contract you gave him. All you can do is make the best decisions going forward, even if that means eating a contract like Travis Henry’s after only one year.

by MattR on Jun 2, 2008 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really hope we don't stick any CBs at SAF.

I think a lot of folks look at SAF as being a position for “lesser” CBs. But the positions are really different. I don’t see Bailey or Bly moving to SAF.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guess I'll rain on the parade

I’ll catch a lot of heat for this, but I may be the only guy out there that doesn’t like Foxy on the field. He’s a terrific guy and I like him off the field, but I prefer man to man corners opposed to a zone corner. It seems to me when I see him make a play, it’s always a tackle after the receiver caught the ball. I can’t remember seeing him break up many plays. I know he has played some SAF too, but I woudn’t want to see him as a permanent starter at either position.

In his three years in Denver, his tackles have dropped every year (65 to 48 to 31), as well as 2 INT’s in 2005, 1 in 2006, and Zero last year. I know these are just stats, but I don’t believe this guy has the talent to stay as a #1 or #2 corner for this team. He might make it somewhere else as a starter, but I like Paymah as a better backup. I would welcome a trade if we could find someone better. I like Jack Williams, but he’s the same kind of player – stictly zone coverage.

I love the style of Champ, but I wouldn’t call Bly his other bookend. Bly gets burned too much for the risks he takes. Sometimes it’s not a risk, he just gets burned by not watching his man. I can’t forgive Bly’s play against Green Bay last year. On the first play from scrimmage in OVERTIME! Farve to Greg Jennings for an 82 yard touchdown, burning Bly like a marsmallow in a campfire. (yes I’m still burned about that play)

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 2, 2008 1:59 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think we need him long term..I'd like to get a nice juicy draft pick for him.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 2, 2008 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will eat my hat

if Denver trades or cuts Bly before the end of the 2009 season.

Now that Denver paid him his $9 million option bonus a couple months ago it is not very feasible from a salary cap perspective. After 2008, Bly will still have $9.45 million in prorated bonuses that have yet to be accounted for. All that money will accelerate into the 2009 cap if he is cut or traded. (If he stays a Bronco his earnings will be $3.65 million and his cap # will be $6.8 million in 2009 and 2010). As long as there is no cap in place for 2010, Denver cannot spread the acceleration across two years.

I just cannot see Denver taking the extra $2.65 million salary cap hit to not have Bly on the roster even if it means saving the $3.65 million in salary and incentives Bly is due. (I think this also reduces the leverage the team has if it tries to get Bly to take a pay cut before 2009) Plus, even though I just complimented him for this, it would be tough for Shanahan to get rid of Bly after paying him more than $18 million for two seasons.

by MattR on Jun 2, 2008 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was talking about Foxy, not Bly. :)

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 2, 2008 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

in that case

I will eat my hat if Foxy gets traded :) I guess it might happen if a team is desperate for a CB and makes a good enough offer, but I think the window for trading him has closed.

by MattR on Jun 2, 2008 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I wrote somewhere else today that the idea of trading is lessened, but my thinking was that we are so close to a situation where all four CBs are on the block, and we need to keep our options open at that point. We may end up trading, but not before we know what’s going to happen with Bailey and Bly. I think this reloading season was the last chance to get a trade down for awhile.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

So if you trade, who for?

What do you think you trade for? Draft picks to continuing reloading? I may be wearing orange glasses these days, but I am not sure there is a position of enough need to justify the trade… at least not until we get out of camp and find out what kind of hand we’ve got.

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 11:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I either trade for a future draft pick...

...or go for an area we need to shore up.

I still think DT may be an area of concern. We have Thomas, but are hoping he continues to improve. We picked up DRob, hoping his knees don’t give out and that he plays better in a 4-3 than in a 3-4. We have a mid round draft pick (Powell), but who knows? If we trade for a player, I’d like one more DT in the mix. Just me.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 3, 2008 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

DT was my initial thought as well

D-Rob seems tenuous, at best, and there isn’t a lot of young depth there. On the other hand, I feel okay about where the D-line is going into the season, but am worried about the future. For that reason, maybe a draft pick would make more sense.

Before the offseason I would have said we needed a receiver, but we picked up a few of those… :-)

by jonahsilas on Jun 4, 2008 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would have to say we go Draft Pick in a trade

if we are gonig to let a prominent pice of a team like foxy go we are gonig to want to be able to capitalize off him.

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 4, 2008 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly what is your hat made of ?

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 3, 2008 4:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

that I will ever get over the Greg Jennings TD. Especially after they showed a replay with a big yellow line showing his route meandering down the field. Admittedly Cox was out of position, but Bly couldn’t hang in man coverage against an up-and-coming WR… Yuck.

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I say this a lot...

...but we always remember CBs for getting burned, but not for the numerous times they break up plays, or prevent the QB from even passing in their direction at all. Bailey and Bly get remembered for getting burned in the GB game, and that’s unfortunate.

INTs are crowd pleasers, but most CBs will go for the safe bat away or tackle first. A blown bite on an INT can allow a WR to get away with the ball, or allow the ball to be tipped to another player. INTs are great, but prevented plays are a more accurate marker (though much harder to measure).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs

Thanks

for another nugget, again a great statement on life, too.

by jonahsilas on Jun 2, 2008 11:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't that play make you sick?

Jonah, I’m with you. Not only did we have the shock of suddenly losing the game, we had to listen to those Farve hacks on ESPN. I swear that were so excited they all jumped out of their depends. Made me sick just listening to them. That entire game I was so ticked off. Here we had a Denver home game and all ESPN would talk about was Farve and his family and his whole life story. They showed more GB fans in the stands than shots of Denver fans. ESPN wanted to run down and kiss Farves’ **s and put him in the HOF that night. I’m not dumping on Farve here, but I am at ESPN. It was easy getting ticked at Bly for getting burned, because not only did we lose the game, but had the afterglow by the network.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 3, 2008 4:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brett was in that game?

I just remember endless shots of his wife in the stands.

by jonahsilas on Jun 4, 2008 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

There was a game?

I thought it was just a Mrs. Favre special!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 4, 2008 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was a poetry reading of some kind.

“My Brett, our Favre”.

groan.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 4, 2008 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I HATE POETRY!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 4, 2008 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bailey was burned...

on a route by James Jones (stupid video on youtube)...and Jones isn’t as good as Jennings, especially on that depth chart as a rookie. I guess you do have a point when you bring up the fact that it was in OVERTIME and it was in a pressure situation, but players are going to get burned. I’ll be happy with whoever wins the #2 job in camp this off-season :)

I’m thinking Foxy as a long term deal and I like Paymah as well. HT brought up the important issue of all the CBs having negotiation years coming up. Can we really keep all of them? Would you be fine with Foxy OR Paymah if Denver can’t secure Bly or whoever? That’s the scary thought, beyond next season. I am fairly satisfied about next season’s squad thus far though.

by phantom818 on Jun 2, 2008 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

My only thought here

Is the schemes we played over the years and the amount of time he had. If he played 6 games and got two picks and then played 14 games and got 1 that would be huge. Tackles run the same way how many games did he play to make the 31 tackles vs game s to make the 65? His use was limited through the years with DWill here and then Bly followed by paymah beating him out and then having time at safety. A Safety should be tackling AFTER the catch because that means the Corner blew the coverage or jumped the ball or something out of the Safety’s control. I think Foxy will prove some people wrong ( I may be one of them) and take over as #2 in a bit!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 2, 2008 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree Jon

I think you have described the role of the SAF correctly. I also wouldn’t consider Fox a zone kind of guy (though I still think Jack Williams is. I don’t think being a zone CB is a bad thing, it just doesn’t match our needs. I wonder if we got him for more STs work, and the hope that he can be developed into more of a man coverage guy?)

I think Fox’s declining numbers do have more to do with his roles than with his abilities.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jun 2, 2008 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do too

I think Jack will turn out to be a decent CB. As to his zone vs. man, where you come from has a great deal to do with what you learn. It sounds liek the kid came from zone to zone and now to man. I think given time he will do well in man. I dont mean stick him in now for sure but he will develop his man skills as he plays more of it! I also categorize Foxy as a Man player, its hard to switch back and forth from Zone (Safety) to Man (CB) on any team. I still say Foxy will end up the number two guy here soon. Bly had better keep his end of the bargin to remain #2 in Denver or he coudl walk the line that Walker, Gold, and Henry have walked…Big names with an even BIGGER door!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 2, 2008 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

as i posted before...

i don’t know when paymah became a better corner than foxy. now that he is focusing on corner, he will blow past paymah. i am not a paymah fan, and i think foxy brings more to the table. in the intangibles department, he is top-notch. bly is a very good #2, and i don’t think foxy can beat him out there. but in a pinch, he could do pretty well. i think he may get a chance to start somewhere next season, like herndon, and leave for that reason. i hope not, i would much rather get rid of paymah, and draft a guy for the future if williams doesn’t develop. bailey and bly have some miles left, and i think we need to keep them both. have you seen the corners in our division, they are ridiculous. foxy is the perfect nickel, top backup, but he probably wants more. i hope we find a way to keep him around. i think we are going to need that really good #3 again. can you say indy on the road in the playoffs?

by davecheffy on Jun 2, 2008 3:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

In Bly's Defense

I think it is too early to judge Bly’s success or failure as a Denver Bronco. I had high hopes when they signed him. Two pro-bowl shutdown corners in one secondary I thought Christmas had come early. We were going to have the top passing defense in the league no question about it.

Needless to say the 2007 season brought a different reality than I had envisioned. Our defense struggled early and often. What went wrong I wondered? Were we wrong about Bly’s talent? Did he gamble too much?

IMO the collapse of the rest of our defense did not give Bly or Bailey the opportunity to be the corners they truly are. We put virtually no pressure on opposing qbs giving them all the time in the world to throw the ball. This also gave the recievers time to get separation.
The more pressure you put on a qb the more off balance and out of rythym he is going to be, he is going to second guess , hurry a throw or take that chance because he doesn’t want to get hit again. This is where corners like Bly and Bailey are going to earn their money. Bailey is the premier shutdown corner in the game and he had only 3 INTs last year compared to 10 the previous year.

When we get back to Bronco’s football: stuffing the run, rushing the passer , scoring TDs on both sides of the ball then we will get to see the terror Bly and Bailey can bring to other team’s offensive coordinators. Once we get teams playing from behind we will see Bly and Baileys numbers skyrocket VS. last year. I think we could see a different Bly this year, because I think we will see a dramitically different Bronco’s defense this year. Let’s not put Bly on the bench or the trading block till we see the player he is on a REAL Bronco’s defense.

by FlaBRONCO on Jun 3, 2008 3:11 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

More on Bly

Your comments are right on the mark about the defense overall that will improve Bailey and Bly’s effectiveness. This goes without saying that games are won in the trenches.

This thread was focussed on Foxworth being on the trading block, not Bly. Even though I get “burned” over some of Bly’s play and his style, I’m not advocating a trade for him. Dre Bly’s style is different , but for now, I think he’s the best that Denver can do for a corner opposite Bailey. The Broncos have already gone deep in the pocket for him, and that’s fine. I’m hoping that he can give us a couple pro-bowl years like he did for Detroit in 03 & 04.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit"

Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 3, 2008 4:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

More on Foxy

This thread was focussed on Foxworth being on the trading block, not Bly.

I thought it was focussed on maybe Foxworth displacing Bly as the starter.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 3, 2008 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

CB Effectiveness

IMO the collapse of the rest of our defense did not give Bly or Bailey the opportunity to be the corners they truly are. We put virtually no pressure on opposing qbs giving them all the time in the world to throw the ball. This also gave the recievers time to get separation.

I think you’re right that poor lineplay (and LB play, too) made the CBs less effective, but I’m not convinced that lack of pressure was the culprit. Given how rarely teams passed on us, our middle-of-the-pack sack stats suggests we actually got good pressure. I’d say our pass rush was remarkably good under the circumstances. The problem was, we couldn’t make teams pass. They pounded the ball on us, play after play, forcing us to sell out against the run, and then, with the defenders cheating up towards the line of scrimmage, overcommitting against the run, crossed us up by passing. When a defense is desperate to stop the run it’s more vulnerable to the pass. Under those circumstances receivers don’t need as much time to get open, with the CBs mentally leaning towards the line of scrimmage, bracing for another run. Better runstopping from the front seven would help Baily and Bly (or Baily and Foxy) enormously.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 3, 2008 11:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

denver diehard...

i, too, couldn’t believe the espn coverage of “brett favre night” at mile high last season. but all these __ s think about is winning their own espy’s, and promoting themselves. they flat out _. i saw more shots of his wife than anything else at the stadium.
furthermore, i believe i counted 3-4 huge “favre night” calls in that game, too. i don’t like to say that, but i am also not a blind man. i remember telling my friend that they just weren’t going to let us ruin favre’s monday night swan song. this game should have never reached ot in the first place. very questionable officiating, or very poor AND one-sided, take your pick.

since i’m ref-bashing here(and this is my first time), i’ll just add my comment to last year’s bears game post here:

i remember this game now. we had won that game. probably didn’t deserve to, but it was over. chicago was unsuccessful on 4th down deep in our territory trailing 34-27, and we just needed to take a few knees and go home, victorious. but WAIT. bly gets a late flag for defensive holding to give them a new set of downs. which they convert, of course, into the tying touchdown.

what happened on the play? i’ll tell ya. the receiver(muhammed, i think), ran directly at bly and plowed into him. when muslin stumbled, after HIS contact, the flag came out-slowly. i don’t know if the new rule is you have to literally get out of their way, but even if it is, there is nothing you can do to stop this. i mean, when bly tried to move to his side to avoid/cover him, muhammed “tracked” him and initiated contact. i saw this about a half dozen other times last season, before and after this game, and it drew the call each time they showed it. the announcers even called it a “fashionable” way to draw a penalty, toward the end of the season. can anyone clarify this rule/interpretation, and will we be seeing more of this, perhaps by our wideouts? this sort of thing cheapens the game, and is completely unfair to the db’s. if this is a penalty, they need to throw it out, now. if it is rampant poor officiating, lord help us. god, last season _ed, didn’t it? maybe it’s better to forget…...these….........games….....................

by davecheffy on Jun 3, 2008 7:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs