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Broncos' Consistency Speaks For Itself; Hall of Fame Still Reeks

So, I was thumbing through the Broncos 2008 Media Guide and came across an interesting bit of information, right on the first page.  It was a picture of the 2 Vince Lombardi Trophies, along with 6 AFC Conference Championship trophies, and below were several statistics that showed how the Broncos have fared since 1970, when the AFL and NFL officially merged.  That is 38 years of history heading into this season.

Broncos_trophies_medium 

Star-divide

Let's take a look at some important stats when it comes to how successful a team has been over the past 4 decades --

Super Bowl Berths
TEAM No.
1. Dallas 8
2. DENVER 6
New England 6
Pittsburgh 6
5. Miami 5
SF, Wash 5
Winning Seasons
TEAM No.
1. Miami 28
2. Dallas 27
Pittsburgh 27
4. DENVER 24
Minnesota 24
6. SF, Wash 23

Overall Wins
TEAM No.
1. Pittsburgh 379
2. Dallas 378
3. Miami 374
4. Denver 356
5. San Francisco 355
6. Minnesota 349

Reg. Season Wins
TEAM No.
1. Miami 354
2. Pittsburgh 351
3. Dallas 347
4. DENVER 339
5. Minnesota 333
6. San Francisco 330
Home Wins(Reg.)
TEAM No.
1. Pittsburgh 210
2. DENVER 207
3. Miami 204
4. Dallas 198
5. Minnesota 196
6. Washington 185

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


So what does all this mean? First off, I had no idea the Minnesota Vikings have been so good, so consistent, for so long. Secondly, it tells me the Broncos have been very consistent, very successful, over the history of the modern-day NFL. Sometimes, when thing aren't going as well we we'd like, or it appears there isn't a light at the end of the tunnel, we need to remember that the track record of this team for the past 38 years has been one of success.

Of course, any time I speak of the history of success for the Broncos, my mind immediately goes to the Hall of Fame snubbing. How to the Broncos compare to the other 5 teams that seemed to appear in every category above with the Broncos?  To do this, I'll use the HOF's official list, which breaks down Enshrinees in two ways - Primary and Secondary.  I will focus on Primary members only, or those who spent the majority of their career with that team.  I hope you are sitting, it isn't pretty...

# of HOF'ers
TEAM No.
1. Pittsburgh 17
2. San Francisco 12
3. Dallas 10
4. Miami 9
5. Minnesota 8
6. DENVER 2

Any chance I can use to demonstrate the gross injustice by these so-called experts who vote for Hall Of Fame induction I will more than happily accept. Just remember, Broncos Fans, you can be proud of the Orange and Blue. The past has been a glorious one, and more great things are on tap in the future.

GO BRONCOS!

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That's why the Ring of Fame in Denver has....

1000 times the clout and class of the hall of shame in Canton!

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Jun 24, 2008 10:03 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The Ring of Fame is hallowed ground for Bronco fans...

I am ashamed of the NFL for this great injustice. My hope is that by 2012 that number will go from 2 to 5 at least…if that happens then I might start to reconsider my feelings towards the hall of fame(shame).

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

I had no clue the vikings were so consistant. Thats pretty neat. Those two trophies iin the middle there give me goosebumps everytime I see them. I remember up in Greeley after they won there first superbowl the fans got to take pictures with the lombardi trophy. I was that guy who had his greasy hands all over the silver football as if I won it myself. Of course it was absolutely forbidden to touch it but I figured what the heck, my one and only chance to touch a lombardi trophy. That was a good day because I also got TD’s rookie card signed….In fact that was the day Shannon Sharpe ran my foot over with his golf cart. lol….The good ol days.

P.S.

I wish Training camp was still in Greeley.

by Denver_Native on Jun 24, 2008 10:07 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes I'm mad as hell too!

Guru, what’s up with this?

Denver has only one primary and that is Elway!

I will focus on Primary members only, or those who spent the majority of their career with that team

Gary Zimmerman is being inducted this year, but he is secondary. He played for Minnesota 7 years and only five for Denver. I don’t consider him a true Bronco in the Hall. Just as Willie Brown and Dorsett, neither are Broncos. If Zimmerman is being inducted as a Bronco, that’s fine, but I’m sure Viking fans feel more ownership of his playing time in Minnesota as reasons for being in the HOF.
Some Denver fans may argue, but he simply isn’t a true Bronco. I was also dissapointed that he quit after the first SB win. At least nobody can say that he was key for both Superbowl wins. Tony Jones filled in just fine in 98. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he isn’t deserving, but that his induction is like a glass half empty, or half full whichever you prefer.

There are and were many Broncos in the past that were more deserving than Zimmerman. We could go on forever and probably argue who is more deserving, but the bottom line is that Denver players have been robbed.

I was talking to a hard core Steeler fan recently about Floyd Little. He was dead set against Little making the hall. Why?, because of Floyd’s low numbers, but at the time 44 retired he was #7 all time in rushing yards. So then I asked this guy why so many Steelers are in. His answer: because they won 4 Superbowls. Wait a minute, the HOF is an individual accomplishment, not a team accomplishment. Somehow, I think the writers that vote, seem to forget that.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 10:40 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

He is considered...

By the HOF to be a primary….The criteria for that is the team the player decides he will ENTER the Hall of Fame as. Zimmerman will go into the Hall as a Bronco, not a Viking.

That said, if you listen to MHR Radio you’ll hear me always say the Broncos have 1 1/2 members in the Hall. I simply used the HOF’s interpretation so I could more easily compare “apples to apples”.

As for the rest of your rant, I couldn’t agree with you more…..

-TSG

www.milehighreport.com

by John Bena on Jun 24, 2008 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zimmerman as Bronco

If he considers himself a Bronco, not a Viking, that’s good enough for me. Isn’t that itself a kind of recognition, that he’d rather be remembered as a Bronco?

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jun 24, 2008 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

One of the biggest reasons that Zimmerman retired was....

his shoulders were so bad that he couldn’t lift his arms above his head. The Broncos barely kept him in 1997 and Elway had to go to Sturgis to talk him into coming back that season. I was disappointed that he didn’t return in 1998, but I don’t blame him for not staying.

I gladly class Zimmerman as a Bronco. While it is true that Zim played more seasons in Minnesota, he was phenominal with the Broncos. How many times did he take care of Derrick Thomas and other top pass rushers when previous Broncos LT (Russell Freeman ring a bell?) couldn’t stop him? Zim kept the blindside safe for Elway.

It is revolting that there are not more Broncos in the hall of shame. East Coast MSM bias rears its ugly head every time the “hall” is debated.

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Jun 24, 2008 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

Zimmerman is a Bronco. He was great for Minnesota, but how many playoffs games and Super Bowls did he win with the Vikings? He helped create the zone blocking the Broncos have been using for over a decade.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus Zimm

Considers himself a Bronco. He has nothing but love and respect for Bowlen, Shanny, Elway and all of the Broncos he played with, He has nothing but disdain for the Vikings. Plus his presenter at the induction ceremony is gonna be Bowlen himself. So as a fan of this team I am glad he is in the HAll and I consider him a full member. I could go on and on who has got shafted. But next up into the Hall for the Broncos should be Sharpe. If I am correct he should be eligible this year. Lets hope that the Broncos get back to back seasons of inductions

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sharp is a no-brainer

The original go-to TE. Great blocker, Great talker. Three rings. The hold enchalada.

by HBBeough on Jun 24, 2008 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be royally pissed if he doesn't get in first ballot...

You know Tony Gonzalez will get in first ballot, so there is no way Sharpe should be passed up at all.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too

But do you really expect them to give TWO Broncos first ballot HOFers?

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

They had better...I've put them on notice plenty of times.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is where his heart is.

Sorry, Diehard.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 11:35 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I've been away

and turn on a cumputer for the first time in a while to see a topic that makes me see ORANGE. As a community, and that is what the MHR has become, we need to do something about this ongoing injustice. I will only have occasional opportunities to be near electricity for the next two months, but after that I will offer to spearhead some type of effort to get more Broncos recognized by the HOF.

As for Zim, I must respectfully disagree with you Diehard. He is a Bronco through and through.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson

by firstfan on Jun 24, 2008 12:00 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

long time no see first fan!

And I agree…

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, stop the lashings! Ouch! Enough - Uncle!

Wow, I guess I hit a nerve about Zimm. Understand that I like Zimm, but it’s just my personal opinion that he is 1/2 Bronco. Meaning I’d like to see others that played their entire career in Denver make the HOF. I have to agree with Guru – we have 1 1/2 Broncos in the Hall. “Just my opinion guys”

It makes me glad that Zimm considers himself as a Bronco. It does.

Off the subject, I met Jerry Sturm yesterday. He played from 61-67 as a guard for the Broncos. We sat down and had a drink – Really a great guy and very approachable. He signed a few cards for me and told some great stories about the players.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 12:19 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I am jealous.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

half a bronco?

I guess I still dont get that part. Sure he did not start in Denver, but he was an important cog in the Super Bowl winning team. So Is Eddie Mac a half a Bronco? How about Ray Crockett? You see I dont care where these guys may have started but its where they finish. Where their loyalty lies. Mark Schlereth start a Skin but considers himself a Bronco. I guess all I am saying its gonna be hard to get another Elway in the HOF as a 100% Bronco. Those players who start and end their career in one city.
When Bailey is inducted into the hall will you consider him a full or part time Bronco

Not trying to pile on, just understand

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I look at the team that the player spent the majority of his career

To answer your questions (IMHO) Eddie Mac is a Bronco. He played for Denver 9 years and 4 years elswhere. Also I agree about where they finish to some extent, and what team the player wants to be known as when enshrined.
Schlereth I would agree as a Bronco if inducted. He played exactly one half his career in Denver and the other in Washington. Champ is another, this season will be his 10th, 5 in Wash. and 5 in Denver. He will probably have several more years in Denver, so he is a Bronco.
Lynch is a different story: 11 years in Tampa, and 5 in Denver, I would consider him a Buc vs Bronco. Who knows, maybe if enshrined he would want to be a Bronco.

As far as where they finish, Dorsett finished here, but went in as a Cowboy and rightfully should have. All of these guys are or were Denver Broncos, but I believe if they are in the HOF for all eternity, what will they be remembered for? It will be their entire career, and I consider their primary to be the team they played for the most.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats cool

I never considered Dorsett a Bronco, nor do I with Lynch. I would be a little put off if he was inducted in the the ring of fame. I was just a little confused. That makes good sense to me, and for the most part I would agree. But my caveat would be someone like Zimm, who although did spend more time in Minnesota he would be remember for his time with Denver (IMO).

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lynch has already stated he would always be a Buc.

He will retire to the Denver area and live there, but he will enter the HOF as a Buccaneer. But out of all of the 1/2 Broncos in the hall of fame, Lynch would be the closest I would consider a 1/2 Bronco in the hall.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about Willie Brown?

Brown played 4 years in Denver at the start of his career and way too many for Oakland. Personally, I don’t like him because he hates Denver (and he was a raider), so I certainly don’t consider him a Bronco. The only satisfaction I have is that the only place his name is in the record book, was for tied for 4 int’s in a game, and that was when he was in Denver tee-hee! Also, his rookie card was 1965 as a Denver Bronco. That must burn a few Raider fans that collect Raider cards.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

He started a Bronco, but....once a fader, always a fader...

unless your name is Mike Shanahan.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought about that

But IMO he is a piece of trash. I dont like him or some of his comments. He can stay a fader for all I care. But he will always be linked to the Broncos

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

So can you share some of these stories?

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be glad to

I think I should write it up as a fanpost. I make a lot of comments on MHR, but haven’t done a Fanpost yet. I hope you will find it interesting reading. I’ll work on it the next few days.

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm looking forward to it.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem....

with 1/2 Broncos, but they will remain that way to me until several “full” Broncos get inducted. I refuse to “settle” and accept Zim when many of the names we have discussed here remain on the outside.

-TSG

www.milehighreport.com

by John Bena on Jun 24, 2008 1:10 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Yes!

Floyd Little and Randy Gradishar come to mind.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson

by firstfan on Jun 24, 2008 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn't agree more, then Billy Thompson and Louie Wright

"If Denver beats us, I'll walk back to Detroit" - Alex Karras

by Denver Diehard on Jun 24, 2008 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Billy Thompson...

...has never gotten the credit he deserved, except maybe from those who played with him and against him.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 2:12 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Was probably the first

CB to convert to SS and be really good. I know he was the first to lead the league in PR/KR average in the same season 1969. I just wished he could have won a Super Bowl. BTW I think he could have played in 1986-87. He sure was better than Tony Lilly even at 38

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The guy was one of the finest athletes we even had.

I got a chance to meet him when he owned the McDonald’s in Castlerock. Of course I stumbled over every other word and I think I drooled down my shirt. He was very nice about it though. He’s a class act.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man

I remember him owning that place in Castlerock. It seems like ages ago.

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 24, 2008 2:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

It was.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aren't those throphies something though?

ANd doesn’t the record document the outrage? Until the h.o.f. (de-emphasis added) get their heads out of you-know-where there will only be one true hall of fame, the Ring of Fame.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jun 24, 2008 2:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Amen brother!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 24, 2008 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed!!

What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson

by firstfan on Jun 24, 2008 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

correct me if i'm wrong

but these guys don’t pick what team they go in for do they? It’s not like MLB where a guy has to decide which cap he’s going to wear. They’re just in. It’s the league that decides which team is primary or secondary or whatever.

I think Little, Gradishar, Wright and maybe Billy Thompson are the only eligible guys that have been screwed out of the hof. I do however, think Simon Fletcher has been screwed out of the ring of fame.

by hercules rockefeller on Jun 24, 2008 7:16 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I actually think...

It is the opposite. In baseball, MLB decides who they are going to go in as. I remember that was a big deal when Gary Carter was inducted as an Expo, and there was alot of talk after Clemens won his first World Series with the Yankees about whether he would eventually go in as a Yankee or Red Sox(he wanted to go in as a Yankee).

In football, I think the player has some say. I will look into it a bit deeper, but MLB definitely decides for the player.

-TSG

www.milehighreport.com

by John Bena on Jun 25, 2008 5:51 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

looks like you're right

they were letting the players pick the caps until aught one (Reggie Jackson with a Yankee cap, Nolan Ryan with a Ranger cap, Catfish Hunter refusing to pick so he’s got a logo-less cap).

Now they take he players wishes into consideration, but MLB will make the final decision.

by hercules rockefeller on Jun 25, 2008 7:42 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fletcher

I agree with Fletcher. He should be in the Ring of fame. My favorite player to use on defense in Tecmo Super Bowl, along with Atwater. But, the players don’t pick what team they go in for. I don’t really care what team Zim goes in on. The main point is that he was on those Denver teams that won back to back Super Bowls. We have him and Elway off those teams, and Sharpe should be next this winter. After that, Atwater and Nalen should be in, and I think that Rod and Neil Smith, Bill Romanowski, and Terrell Davis will at least be debated or, in TD’s case, continue to be debated.

by PABroncofan on Jun 24, 2008 8:13 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Because this is such an excellent post...

...and deserves to be read by many outside this site, I must put on my grammarian’s hat to see about the title:

Broncos’ (<-Insert Punctuation Mark) Consistency Speaks For Itself; Hall of (<-de-capitalize) Fame Still Reeks

Brilliant stuff, Guru. This is required reading, and I’d hate for anyone (especially those with votes) to fail to read it due to a minor error.

by Arturo Bandini on Jun 24, 2008 9:58 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!

-TSG

www.milehighreport.com

by John Bena on Jun 25, 2008 5:48 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

We’re better than some of the youngsters thought. Its not just our location. Miles and Miles away from another TV market…no-one else to fill the huge square-miles void between us and any other. A Market for the ‘Heartland’....A Team for the Heartland. A Team for the foolish that like mountains. Us funny Bronco fans.

by Mike Clark on Jun 24, 2008 10:08 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Unbelieveable

The more I read about all this and everything that this organization has done it just simple amazes me that Elway was the first Bronco inducted in the HOF. Shannon Sharpe should get in on the first year of eligibility, however if he somehow doesn’t then all of the HOF voters should have their voting privileges revoked….....permantly.

Thanks for those stats Guru. Very interesting in the amount of top 5’s yet only two are in.

by weazel on Jun 24, 2008 10:49 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I took notice

that the raiDUH’s were not on those lists of consistent teams winning teams or any of the like. The fans can say what they want but the records speak for themselves! As to the entirety of this piece, I think it validates the post signature on my comments!

Until Terrell Davis makes it into the Hall of Fame, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of such a place other than the Ring of Fame at Mile High!

Davis to the Hall!

by Jon Tollerud on Jun 24, 2008 11:07 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for seeing the point...

of this post. While I blame myself for bringing the hof into the conversation, I was amazed at just how consistent the Broncos have been over the past 38 years. Top 5 in every category that matters, and while people will point to the 4 Super Bowl losses, merely the fact the Broncos got to the big game as many times as they did, and were in the position to win as much as they did, proves just how successful they have been.

Besides, history hasn’t frowned on the Vikings or Bills for their Super Bowl failures. Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, et al are having no trouble getting into the hof despite getting blown out in 3/4 losses.

-TSG

www.milehighreport.com

by John Bena on Jun 25, 2008 5:54 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zimmerman

Zimmerman despised the Vikings so much he told them he’d retire rather than play for them anymore, so they worked a trade with Denver. He’s a Bronco in my book.

by bradley on Jun 25, 2008 9:45 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

you can have him

Zimmerman is definitely a Bronco. Interesting debate—I had no idea that players could choose with what team they would be inducted.

It’s funny that y’all are surprised by Minnesota’s consistent winning seasons. You wouldn’t be if Gary Anderson hadn’t missed that kick 10 years ago. The Vikes would not have been the sacrificial lamb that the Falcons were. One can dream, right?

by virginia viking on Jun 26, 2008 11:14 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

That is why I believe in destiny....the Broncos were destined to win back to back Championships.

It may not have happened against the Vikings…but then again, it might have been easier to beat the Vikes than it was the Falcons. If you remember, the Falcons were able to take away our running game faily effectively. I think the 98 Broncos matched up very well against the 98 Vikings…of course, in 2008 I would say “thank god” we don’t have to play that two headed beast in Minnesota this year!

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08
The Quest ~ TSG 5/19/08

by Tim Lynch on Jun 26, 2008 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you so convinced

That the Vikings would have won that game? The only strong rushing team they played that year was Tampa and lost. But I for one have know how good the Vikings were from around from 1968-1983 then they had the Les Steckle year. Then they are consistent

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jun 28, 2008 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This article made SI.com's Broncos page!

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Jun 26, 2008 4:20 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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