2008 Denver Broncos - Breaking Down The Roster #4 - Defensive End

Dumervil will continue to crush opposing QB's in '08
A few days ago we took a look at the interior of the defensive line. We all know the problem the Broncos had stopping the run, and there has been plenty of talk about why. The Broncos have gone to great lengths to improve the interior, both on the line and at linebacker. Equally important to me is the ability to create a pass rush from the front four. As the New York Giants reminded us in Super Bowl XLII, it doesn't matter who the quarterback is, or how talented the offense is, if you can create constant pressure with your front 4 you are going to have a chance to win the game.
Let's look at the stats, shall we? Again, sack totals are not tied directly to the defensive end position, but I do believe an effective pass rush, generated by the front four, is directly related to a team's success. The D-End is a big part of that. When the Broncos were winning more games in a 3-year period than anyone ever('96-'98), they were consistently in the top-10 in sacks -
1996 - 40 sacks - #8
1997 - 44 sacks - #10
1998 - 47 sacks - #6
Fast forward to the past 5 years, and the Broncos haven't had the same success. Ironically, when the Broncos advanced to the AFC Championship in 2005 they had their worst season in terms of sacks -
2003 - 36 sacks - #13
2004 - 38 sacks - #14
2005 - 28 sacks - #28
2006 - 35 sacks - #15
2007 - 33 sacks - #16
Does that mean that getting to the quarterback isn't that important? Of course not. In 2005, the Broncos knew they didn't have a great pass rush up front so they sent the house, alot. Think back to the playoff game against the Patriots, the Broncos blitzed 8 or 9 guys almost every play. Finally we came up against a team, the Steelers, that handled that pressure. The result was....well...we don't need to talk about it.
The rebuilding of the d-line began, and it went into overdrive in the 2007 draft. The Broncos focused heavily on the defensive ends in last year's draft, taking Jarvis Moss in Round 1 and Tim Crowder in Round 2. The goal was to let the rookies come along slowly with veterans John Engelberger and Ebenezer Ekuban getting a majority of the reps, along with Elvis Dumervil. Those plans ended when Ekuban blew out his Achilles in the pre-season. The result was a struggling defense.
Heading into 2008, the Broncos look to be healthy and hungry up front and are primed to break out. If we are talking about a successful season in 6 months, the following group would have had a huge hand in it. Let's meet them.
EBENEZER EKUBAN (6-4, 275 / 10th Year)
Big things were expected from Ekuban heading into 2007. As one of the infamous "Browncos", Ekuban had actually been highly effective. Coming over from the Browns in the Reuben Droughns trade, his 63 tackles in 2006 were easily a career high, and the 7 sacks were his second best total. With a batch of rookies coming in, Ekuban was going to be the veteran presence the Broncos disparately needed. That all ended when Ekuban tore his Achilles tendon against the Dallas Cowboys. It continued a steamroller of injuries that paralyzed the Broncos during the pre-season.
An injury as significant as the one Ekuban endured is tough to come back from for a young player, let alone a 10 year vet. Ekuban went through it, and the Broncos saw enough to re-sign him to a contract. We really don't know what to expect from Ekuban, but one thing is for sure. Even if he cannot come back as the player he was before, his presence on the sideline, in the locker room, the meeting room, sitting along side Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder will be invaluable.
The Broncos are likely to take things slow during training camp with Ekuban, but I will be keeping a close eye on #91. I always pull for guys that battle back from injuries and something tells me Ekuban will be a solid contributer in 2008.
2007 Season Notes: Ekuban spent the season on injured reserve with a torn right Achilles’ tendon suffered in the Broncos’ second preseason game at Dal. (8/18)... Placed on injured reserve on Aug. 20.
JOHN ENGELBERGER (6-4, 260 / 9th Year)
I'll admit it. I have never been high on Engelberger, but it really isn't his fault. Engelberger is the type of player that every team loves to have. High energy, over achiever, doesn't quit. The problem is, the Broncos, at times in 2007, had a d-line filled with those types of guys. At some point you need pure talent. For that reason my opinion of Engelberger has changed.
Pressed into a lot more action than the Broncos would really like to see, Engelberger was a steady contributor on 2007. Engleberger's strength is stopping the run, and his 41 tackles were the second highest of his career. In three seasons with the Broncos, Engelberger has played 46 of 48 possible games and has provided stability. In 2007, Engelberger was a Ed Block Courage Award nominee after paying through a painful shoulder injury, starting 15 games. There is no doubting this guys toughness.
While Engelberger does play hard, the Broncos hope he doesn't play nearly as much has he had to in 2007. With Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder, along with Elvis Dumervil, the Broncos hope to have the three guys that can get a majority of the snaps. Engelberger, at this point of his career, should be energy off the bench. That isn't a knock on Engelberger, but for the Broncos to be successful, they'll need their most talented players to be on the field making plays. If used correctly, Engleberger can provide solid leadership and energy. If pressed into a lot of action, look for him to wear down.
2007 Season Notes: Engelberger led the Broncos’ defensive line with 59 tackles (40 solo), starting 15 of 16 games played... Had at least a share of the tackle lead among the defensive linemen seven times... Added one sack (8 yds.), two pass breakups and one forced fumble... Earned the team’s nomination for the Ed Block Courage Award by starting its final 12 games despite suffering a fifth-degree separation of the AC joint in his right shoulder in Week 4 at Indianapolis... Led the defensive line with six tackles (3 solo) at Buf. (9/9)... Recorded five solo stops vs. Oak.(9/16)... Tied for the lead among the linemen with four stops (2 solo) at Ind. (9/30), the game in which he suffered a fifth-degree separation of the AC joint in his right shoulder... Recorded four tackles (3 solo), including a sack (8 yds.), on Sunday Night Football vs. Pit. (10/21)... Led the defensive line with five tackles (3 solo) vs. Ten. (11/19), giving him exactly 200 career solo tackles... Posted six tackles (5 solo) at Oak. (12/2), eclipsing 300 total tackles for his career... Made three tackles and forced a fumble that led to a Denver touchdown vs. Min. (12/30).
ELVIS DUMERVIL (5-11, 260 / 3rd Year)
Too short, too small, blah blah blah. Elvis Dooooooomervil has been hearing that his entire football career, at every level. And people wonder why I'm not a stats guy or combine guy. What Dumervil gives up in size, he makes up for 10 times over in heart, desire and of course, ability. After leading the team in sacks as a rookie, Dumervil did even better in 2007, registering 12.5 sacks, good for 6th in the NFL and 9th best in team history. Not bad for being too small.
Here's a solid breakdown of some of Dumervil's brighter moments from 2007 -
Dumervil is going to be a monster in 2008. I really believe it. Last season I predicted 10-15 sacks for Doom and he came in at 12.5. This season I expect even more, with Dumervil breaking the 15 sack barrier and making his first Pro Bowl Is that optimistic? Yes, but the Broncos need that type of dominant player on the line, and Dumervil has shown to be the closest thing. In his 3rd year, Dumervil should be entering his football prime, and he has been unstoppable getting to the quarterback at every level. The NFL will be no different.
2007 Season Notes: Dumervil was one of three Broncos defenders and the only defensive lineman to start all 16 games as the second-year player finished the year with a team-high 12.5 sacks (62.5 yds.), 56 tackles (43 solo), one interception (27 yds.), seven pass breakups, four forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries... 12.5 sacks tied for sixth in the NFL and tied for ninth in club history for a single season... Sack total also represented the most by a Bronco since 1999 (Trevor Pryce, 13)... Tied for the NFL lead among defensive linemen and ranked second among all Broncos with four takeaways (3 FUM, 1 INT)... Three fumble recoveries tied for third in the NFL (tied for AFC lead)... Four forced fumbles were a team high and tied for ninth in the NFL with two of them being returned by teammates for touchdowns... Seven pass breakups were the most by a Broncos defensive lineman since 1995 (Michael Dean Perry, 8)... Earned AFC Defensive Player of the Week honors with a three-sack game vs. K.C. (12/9)... Posted four multiple-sack games, marking the most by a Bronco since 2000 (Trevor Pryce, 4)... Started for the first time as a pro at Buf. (9/9) and recorded the first interception of his NFL career on a tipped pass against the Bills... Notched his first two sacks of the season vs. Oak. (9/16)... Contributed five tackles (3 solo), including a pair of sacks (10 yds.), along with one forced fumble and one fumble recovery vs. Jac. (9/23)... Registered three pass breakups at Ind. (9/30)... Led the defensive line with six solo tackles, including a pair of sacks (18 yds.), on Sunday Night Football vs. Pit. (10/21)... First sack forced a fumble that was returned 50 yards by Tim Crowder for a touchdown... Registered two solo tackles, one sack and one forced fumble at K.C. (11/11)... Sack against the Chiefs forced a fumble that Nate Webster returned 17 yards for a score... Earned AFC Defensive Player of the Week honors for his performance vs. K.C. (12/9) when he recorded five solo tackles while matching his career high with three sacks... Helped limit the Chiefs to 16 rushing yards on 17 carries (0.9 avg.) and totaled two of his sacks on consecutive plays... Led the defensive line with five tackles (4 solo) and added a sack at S.D. (12/24)... Recovered two fumbles, including one in overtime to set up the game winning field goal, while posting five tackles along with half a sack vs. Min. (12/30) in the season finale... Also drew a facemask penalty in the end zone in the fourth quarter against Minnesota that resulted in a safety.
JARVIS MOSS (6-6, 265 / 2nd Year)
Impact player or 1st round bust? One injury-plagued season doesn't definitively answer that question, but how Jarvis Moss fares in 2008 will go along way towards finding that answer. Moss came in with a lot of fan-fare when the Broncos traded up in the 1st round to select him. After an injury-riddled college career, Moss was hurt early in training camp, further slowing his progress. After looking solid for 6 games, Moss's season ended on a "freak" injury in practice. We'd be forced to wait to see if Moss could be the destructive force the Broncos need.
Fast-forward to 2008, and Moss appears healthy and ready to make an impact. Think about it for a second - Dumervil creating chaos on one side while Moss collapses the pocket on the other - a potentially deadly duo, IF Moss can stay on the field.
Moss is a freak athletically, so much so that he put tremendous stress on the lower half of his body. His mind wants his body to do things it simply cannot and it leads to pulls, sprains, and in the case of his 2007 injury, a broken ankle. Can Moss lasso all that talent and keep his body strong enough to compensate? That's the question that will get answered in pre-season. If Moss can somehow stay healthy, the Broncos are going to reap the rewards. If he cannot, Moss could go down as the next, latest bust in the 1st round of the draft.
2007 Season Notes: Selected by the Broncos in the first round (17th overall) of the 2007 NFL Draft, Moss played six games (1 start) as a rookie, posting 14 tackles (7 solo), one sack (7 yds.) and one forced fumble before being placed on injured reserve on Nov. 6 with a fractured right fibula... Totaled four tackles (3 solo) in his NFL debut at Buf. (9/9)... Forced a fumble on his first professional sack (Josh McCown) vs. Oak. (9/16)... Had three tackles in his first NFL start at Ind. (9/30)... Suffered his leg injury during practice preparing for the game at Det. (11/4) and was inactive for two games before he was placed on injured reserve on Nov. 6.
TIM CROWDER (6-4, 275 / 2nd Year)
Crowder didn't come in with all the attention that Jarvis Moss had, but in some ways I think that is exactly how he liked it. Quiet, but highly effective over 4 years at the University of Texas, Crowder a jack-of-all trades, master of none of the d-line. His rookie season played out that way and showed the Broncos have a solid contributer.

Crowder's 2007 highlight came in prime time
via cache.viewimages.com
An ankle inury slowed Crowder's progress early on, but even while battling through the pain Crowder was abe to tally 4.5 sacks, impressive for any healthy rookie. The highlight had to be the 50 yard fumble recovery for a touchdown, in primetime, against the Steelers. Crowder got stronger as the year went on, something you always look for from a rookie, and with a full-year's experience under his belt Crowder should be ready to breakout in 2008. I felt last year that Crowder would be the most stable and effective of the D-Line rookies, and it turned out he was. I expect more of the same in 2008.
2007 Season Notes: Selected by the Broncos in the second round (56th overall) of the 2007 NFL Draft, Crowder played 13 games (1 start) for Denver as a rookie and totaled 22 tackles (18 solo), four sacks (39 yds.), one forced fumble and two fumble recoveries... Tied for fifth among NFL rookies and ranked second on Denver with four sacks... Registered a sack in three consecutive games (Gms. 9-11), becoming the first Bronco to accomplish that feat since 2004 (Reggie Hayward, 4 gms.)... Scored on a 50-yard fumble recovery for a touchdown on Sunday Night Football vs. Pit. (10/21), becoming the first Broncos defensive lineman to score on a fumble return since 2002 (Chester McGlockton)... Declared inactive for the first three games of the season due to an ankle injury suffered during training camp... Started in his professional debut at Ind. (9/30)... Registered the first tackle of his career vs. S.D. (10/7)... Posted four tackles (3 solo) and the first sacks of his career with two takedowns (21 yds.) of Brodie Croyle at K.C. (11/11)... Added a 15-yard sack vs. Ten. (11/19) on Monday Night Football before recording one sack at Chi. (11/25) to extend his sack streak to three games... Recovered a fumble vs. K.C. (12/9) to set up a touchdown and helped Denver hold the Chiefs to the third-lowest yards per rush average (0.94, 17-16) in a game in club history.

Kenny Peterson (6-3, 300 / 6th Year)
Peterson's career with the Broncos has been nothing if not eventful. Peterson joined the Broncos midway through 2006, seeing action in 3 games. Peterson came into Training Camp in 2007 looking to compete in a deep D-Line pool only to get suspended for the first four games of the 2007 season for testing positive for a performance enhancing substance. Peterson was cut upon his return only to be signed a month later when the Broncos D-Line was in shambles.
Upon coming back to the Broncos, Peterson was pressed into action the final 7 game sand actually proved to be a solid role player. WHile listed as a D-End, Peterson can slide inside as well and plays acceptably well, well enough for the Broncos to keep him around to compete for a job in 2008.
Whether or not Peterson can win a job remains to be seen. With Moss coming back and youth behind him, Peterson is assuredly on the bubble. But like a bad cold, Peterson seems to hang around and we'd be foolish to count him out. After-all, he is a Buckeye!
2007 Season Notes: After competing in training camp with the team, was suspended by the commissioner for the first four games. After serving his suspension, was released by the team on Oct. 8. Re-joined the team as a free agent on Nov. 13. Made season debut on Monday Night Football vs. Ten. (11/19), and assisted on a tackle. Led the defensive line with seven solo tackles, including a sack (8 yds.), and a pass defensed at Chi. (11/25). Dropped QB Rex Grossman for an 8-yard loss in the second quarter moving the line of scrimmage to Denver’s 43-yard line. The sack accounted for his personal most sack yards in a game. Played on defense and special teams, but did not record any stats at Oak. (12/2) and vs. K.C. (12/9). Posted two tackles (1 solo) and a pass defensed at Hou. (12/13). Played, but did not record any stats at S.D. (12/24). Posted three tackles (2 solo) in the season finale vs. Min. (12/30).
PAUL CARRINGTON (6-7, 270 / 3rd Year)
Carrington is in his 3rd year in the NFL, though his only game action came in 2006 as a member of the Falcons. After joining the Broncos as a free agent midway through the 2007, Carrington seemed to be a body to use on the practice field, never active for any of the 8 games the Broncos signed after his signing.
Carrington seemed to be on his way after playing in 15 games(2 starts) for the Falcons in '06, but under new coach Bobby Petrino, Carrington was cut at the end of Training Camp.
While a senior at Central Florida, Carrington recorded 46 tackles, nine sacks, two fumble recoveries, one forced fumble and an interception (20 yds.). In his junior season, he started seven of 11 games for the Golden Knights and registered 30 tackles, four sacks, three passes defensed, one fumble recovery, one forced fumble and an interception.
Unless the Broncos sustain a rash of injuries I think Carrington will experience a similar fate in 2008 as he did in 2007.
2007 Season Notes: Carrington joined the Broncos as a free agent on Nov. 6 and was inactive for all eight games with the club... Competed in Atlanta’s training camp to begin the year but was waived on Sept. 1.
NIC CLEMONS (6-6, 300 / 6th Year)
Officially, Clemons is entering his 2nd NFL season, when in reality he's been battling for a position on a NFL roster since 2003 when he entered the League as an UFA with the Washington Redskins. Since then, it has been a revolving door of Training Camp disappointments for Clemons -
2003 - Cut, then signed to the Redskins' practice squad
2004 - Cut after Redskins' training camp, signed to practice squad
2005 - Actually saw some action in 8 games, the only games day experience Clemons has seen.
2006 - Cut after Redskins' training camp and spends the year out of football
2007 - Cut after Falcons' training camp and spends the year out of football
Enter the Denver Broncos, who signed Clemons to a future-contract on 12/31/07. Clemons will come to camp, where he has a ton of experience getting released, and will probably suffer the same fate. Gotta love the fact the guy won't quit on his dream!
2007 Season Notes: Clemons participated in training camp with Atlanta but was waived on Sept. 1 and spent the regular season out of the NFL.
LARRY BIRDINE (6-4, 270 / 2nd Year)
Birdine was a rookie in 2007, spending 8 games with the Broncos, all of them inactive. After coming into the League as a UFA with the Packers, Birdine was signed to Tennessee's practice squad in September. The Broncos picked Birdine from the Titans in November.
Of all the roster fodder at the bottom of this list, Birdine is the most intriguing to me. While playing for Oklahoma, Birdine played in 41 games (14 starts) where he amassed 103 tackles (61 solo), including 14.5 sacks, four forced fumbles, one fumble recovery and an interception among seven passes defensed. He helped the Sooners reach the BCS national championship game twice (2003 and '04). As a senior, Birdine played in 14 games (13 starts), compiling 39 tackles, 3.5 sacks, a forced fumble and two passes defensed. After a breakout sophomore campaign, Birdine missed the entire 2005 regular season due to a torn left biceps muscle, but returned to play in the Holiday Bowl against Oregon. As a sophomore, Birdine played in all 13 games (0 starts) and posted career highs in tackles (40), solo tackles (29), tackles for loss (11), sacks (7), passes defensed (4) and forced fumbles (2) to go with his only fumble recovery as a collegiate. Against Texas A&M, Birdine registered a career-high three sacks and forced a fumble. As a redshirt freshman, Birdine played in all 14 games (1 start), totaling 24 tackles (15 solo), four sacks, a forced fumble and his only collegiate interception. He made his first collegiate start at Colorado (10/25/03) and responded with a sack.
When coming out of Oklahoma, Scout.com had this to say about Birdine -
Pos: Exciting young prospect with tremendous upside for the next level. Explosive off the snap, outstanding in pursuit and makes plays in all directions of the field. Plays with good pad level and rarely off his feet. Knifes inside of linemen, getting through blocks to make plays against the run. Adequate job holding the point. Neg: Must improve his playing strength. Not the most instinctive defender. Suffered a knee injury prior to the season and will sit on the sidelines this year. Analysis: A defensive end who plays with great suddenness and consistently disrupts the opponents game plan, Birdine was an up and coming star prior to his injury. Needs to get back to playing form in 2006 yet a definite early round prospect to keep an eye on. So, what the hell happened? An early round prospect to completely undrafted. Did he ever come back from the biceps injury? Will he?? It's obvious Birdine was a talented football player at some point. While chances are he'll simply become another roster cut in August, Birdine could be a diamond in the rough, someone to keep an eye on.
2007 Season Notes: Birdine, who entered the NFL with Green Bay as a college free agent on May 4, joined the Broncos on Nov. 6 after Denver signed him to its active roster from Tennessee’s practice squad... Declared inactive for all eight games on Denver’s active roster... Signed with the Titans’ practice squad on Sept. 4 after he was waived by Green Bay on Sept. 1.
Ok, your turn. Give your thoughts on the D-End situation, and remember to grade the unit in the MHR poll!
2 recs |
42 comments
Comments
A couple of Broncos have been making predictions about their stats this year.
I think Elvis probably started this trend last year with his prediction of 12-15 sacks. Maybe setting a high bar is exactly what these hyper-talented players need, something to aspire to. Just a thought.
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
by jibbons on Jul 17, 2008 8:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm big on Crowder!
I really think he will mold into something special. I dont really know what it is but I’ve always like him. He’s got a solid attitude and a good motor. I like our D-line this year. I’m excited to see how much we have progressed in the off season.
by Denver_Native on Jul 17, 2008 8:55 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I could see Tim Crowder as a Neil Smith type.....
when he was with the Chefs in the 90’s. Elvis is similar to Derrick Thomas/Simon Fletcher on the other side.
I like this group of DE so I picked B. They aren’t quite the elite group yet, but this could be a breakout year.
fader nation is a conquered nation
by mdierk on Jul 17, 2008 9:03 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I selected "A"...
because I think this year the defensive line is going to dominate!
There is nothing you cannot be, there is nothing you cannot do. There is nothing you cannot have.
by sirsam on Jul 17, 2008 9:05 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Fine analysis, Guru
“Moss is a freak athletically, so much so that he put tremendous stress on the lower half of his body. His mind wants his body to do things it simply cannot and it leads to pulls, sprains…”
Very insightful! It’s also worth mentioning that on the flip side, Doom was panned for his height without sufficient notice of the length (and strength) of his arms and his now-welcomed ability to use that leverage – as well as his “heart, desire and of course, ability.”
Think where man's glory most begins and ends,
And let me say my glory was I had such friends
-Yeats-
by Emmett Smith on Jul 17, 2008 11:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
leverage
Many of us are now familiar with fact that he has a long wingspan, but I’m waiting for someone to re-write the book on pass rushing. Clearly arm length is more important than head height (to use an awkward phrase), but we’ve yet to hear anyone explain why being short is actually an advantage—astoundingly. Marital artists know this, and many football people talk about the problem with getting too high (*no, I’m not talking about M. Thomas). Arm length is clearly important to blocking technique and it usually goes along with being tall, but getting lower allows you to throw your adversary off-balance.
by Colinski on Jul 17, 2008 7:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "lower center of balance"...
...is a subject in wrestling, martial arts, and football. Great point!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 18, 2008 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Does Josh Mallard have the abilility to slide outside in some situation or play outside in an emergency? Just wondering if that level of versatility might give him a chance to stick at the expense of someone like Engelberger? I like Engelberger’s consistency and determination but he never flashes like Mallard does. Unfortunately, I’m having a hard time finding somewhere for Mallard on the roster even though I’d really like to keep him.
by jaffe28 on Jul 17, 2008 11:37 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
In an emergency, yes.
But I see Eng as a slighter version of Ek. I’d much rather keep Mallard at DT, even if we have to put him on the practice squad. While that’s a risky place (other teams can steal him), he’d be right there if our other DTs aren’t working out.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 18, 2008 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
pass rushing DT - Mallard
The Run Contain is gone but the idea of platooning is still worthwhile, and it has Shanahan’s support, most importantly. I was higher on Mallard than most people, partly because he produced and partly because he’s the fastest DT.
There’s been a general tendency over time to specialize within the NFL, and we’ve seen it at many positions. The salary cap has also contributed to the specialization trend by making prototypical athletes very expensive, and teams have responded by using lesser paid athletes who are good at one aspect of their position. Thus the reserves at many positions are no longer simply ST players who are used in emergency situations at their native position. There are run-stopping DTs & DEs and there are pass-rushing DTs & DEs, even though it would be ideal if a single athlete would do both.
My point is simply that Mallard’s contribution to the team is as a pass rushing DT. Just as the Run Contain scheme was abandoned, so too should our conception of what a DT need look like - and why. There is an unfortunate cognitive bias towards seeing the value of a DT based on how much weight he’s lugging around. That made sense in Run Contain, but when applied dogmatically it produced foreseeable results - big, slightly fat, out of shape athletes who scarcely distinguished themselves despite their resemblance to a prototype. I’d love to see Mallard add some muscle to his legs, but he’s fairly strong up top. His value to the team, however, is as a situational pass rushing DT, and he’s better at than anyone else we’ve got. I’m not exaggerating his abilities, it says something about the level of talent on the DL, too. (BTW—I’d love to see Doom and Mallard execute a ‘twist.’)
by Colinski on Jul 18, 2008 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Big, slightly fat, out of shape athletes"
Interesting perspective, Colinski. I like it.
My only concern is that over time – the course of a game, the course of a season – those smaller yet in shape people might, and I’m asking rather than telling, might wear down just in terms of trying to move the mass of the bigger and usually stronger O linemen. Would that be offset by possibly having the lighter D men in better shape?
Facinating thought. I suspect that you’re only using such men in tandem with bigger guys, yes? How would you break it down?
Think where man's glory most begins and ends,
And let me say my glory was I had such friends
-Yeats-
by Emmett Smith on Jul 19, 2008 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
trench wars & better to be the hitter than hittee
I think HT did a really good job on this subject in his topics on speed and endurance.
There is a phenomenon where the defense wears down, which can be described simply as fatigue (and the defense wears down, in relative terms, more than the offense, so long drives are harder for the defense).
Smaller players can be out-muscled because they’re often weaker, but they don’t “wear down” because they’re smaller. At best, we could say that a bigger sized athlete traveling at the same speed as his opponent can deliver a hit with more force. The wear & tear factor, in which one side absorbs more punishment, can be the product of being hit rather than hitting someone. Actually, some of the offensive players often absorb more punishment, particularly backs and receivers, who are hit after a catch—so this favors the defense in some cases, and it’s also why the defensive players like to hit hard (one of the reasons, but it’s not merely machismo).
I was down on last year’s strategy because the weight that the DLs were adding probably wasn’t muscle, and although added weight makes some sense for an athlete who’s merely attempting to hold his ground, it hurts his level of fitness. Curiously, I do advocate lowering body fat, which improves fitness level but usually lowers weight. And the reason is because it improves stamina and thus speed. Citing martial arts once again, speed is more important than weight in terms of force delivered. I’d prefer seeing our DL in better shape than the opponents, rather than merely putting on weight for the sake of getting heavier.
Size as it relates to Mallard isn’t a ‘wear and tear’ issue, it’s mainly a question of being out-muscled. He’s strong in the upper body, so we’re really talking about leg strength, which is a weakness for him. Leg strength is extremely important for holding one’s ground defending against the running game, and also for bull rushing, which are important aspects of the DT position..
BTW—I think there is something to the idea of a smaller, faster DL being able to penetrate a one-gap, but HT or one of the others could answer this question better than I could.
by Colinski on Jul 19, 2008 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colinski's comment
I think there is something to the idea of a smaller, faster DL being able to penetrate a one-gap…
Big guys can penetrate too (on a pass rush), but don’t exploit the advantage quickly enough. Smaller guys have a harder time penetrating, but once through, look out! Different schemes look at the matter differently in application.
Some teams use a combination of both types of players (one and two gaps). They hope to use the two-gaps to tie up a couple of OLmen, leaving the one gappers with one potential blocker (or less). Other teams use several one gappers, knowing that only one needs to be succesfull to disrupt the play. Some teams double up on big DTs, hoping to take away the run up the middle.
The primary use of the two gap player is having him in a position to decide (on a run play) which of two gaps he will defend as the play unfolds. One gappers have an assigned gap, and plug it up. In pass plays, bothe player types are going after the QB. Note also that while “1 gap” and “2 gap” are used to describe player types, either player type may be assigned a 1 or 2 gap assignment on a given play.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 20, 2008 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
quickness and size
My comment on “penetrating one-gaps” was in-artful, I was trying to point out that smaller athletes are often quicker off the snap, as evidenced by results from the pro combine, and elsewhere. I was trying to redirect the emphasis away from the big ugly prototype that reigned last year to considering the criterion of speed for the DTs. And I’m hardly alone. Moreover, I’m not making the error of believing that uglies can’t be fast since I was once a big ugly who reveled in running past my slower, smaller classmates.
Questions about kinesiology are tough to frame in terms of pure physical metrics. As you say and as it occurred to me at the time, many RBs get in a zone late in the game after they’ve absorbed a lot of punishment—so the wearing down thesis is contra-indicated in some cases. A better way of understanding the issue would be to not assume that the DL and OL are the same in terms of their task, which seems to be an underlying assumption of the wearing down hypothesis. It would be interesting to conduct an experiment in which the roles were reversed, since I have little doubt that most OLs would wear down, too.
I think the physiological measure that’s being under-emphasized - partly because it’s mostly unknown outside endurance sports, i.e., bike racing, etc. - is stamina, which you mention. We could talk about lung capacity, oxygen utilization, etc. Getting hit clearly takes a toll on many football players, but it’s hard to separate the wearing down on the hittee from merely ‘being winded,’ which is oxygen debt and the build up of lactic acid. Sports medicine is very advanced now, especially compared to years ago, I’d love some of that higher level of understanding communicated to football fans here.
BTW—I’m a fan of the idea of wearing out the opponent’s defense through long drives, and this relates to the subject we’ve discussed here. I’ve discussed this idea recently in posts. An offense that can sustain long drives fatigues the defense, much like the wearing down effect. It also takes a lot of pressure off our defense by giving them longer to recuperate. I also advocate the attacking style of defense even although it’s higher risk for long plays, because whether it either succeeds or fails it shortens the amount of time that the defense spends on the field. Ideally, the goals of the offense and defense mesh, and when effective we should have an sizable advantage in time of possession.
by Colinski on Jul 20, 2008 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff!
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 21, 2008 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bear and Colinski
There are many, many issues involved with the ideas behind “small but athletic” versus “big”, as well as fatigue issues and injury issues with both. I really like Coliski’s comments on the matter, and I’ll only add what little I know on the subject. I imagine that’s sports medicine folks could write many thousands of pages on this.
As coaches, we’re taught that the “big uglies” wear down over the course of a game, and the lighter guys do too, but not nearly as much. However, over the course of a season, the bigger guys are able to endure more punishment, while the hits on the small guys add up.
As Colinski mentioned, a large measure of endurance and injury is based on who is doing the hitting and who is receiving. For instance, the RBs that supposedly get better as the game go on, don’t. It’s that the DL and OLBs are getting worn down faster from the hits they take from the OL.
As a physician, you are no doubt more aware of the occurance of injury involved with large body types when stress is placed on joints, such as knees and ankles. They also have the disadvantage of (lack of) cardiovascular health. Oxygen exchange is easier for the smaller guys, so they don’t have to be rotated as much.
Last, while off the point a bit, Denver players (and athletes at the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs) have the advantage of endurance that comes from metabolic changes over the course of a few months working at high altitude. Denver players have a small fourth quarter advantage at low altitudes, while opponents have a very large disadvantage in the second half at high altitudes. Lighter, athletic players compound the advantage for Denver, which is another point in favor of the one gappers.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 20, 2008 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
D Line is still one of my biggest concerns on this team!!!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…the scheme change is going to be the biggest cause for any improvement at D line. Doom is the real deal and I am excited for his contribution to the team for years to come. However, my unbridled optimism ends there. I’m not at all convinced of Moss’ ability to stay healthy. Crowder has talent and may be a solid contributor or better, if he can stay out of trouble. But nothing else here even piques my interest. I think that Ek will have a very difficult time succesfully returning from a torn Achilles (I really hope I’m wrong). Engleberger is not a consistent starter in the NFL. I gave the line a C by balancing Doom (A) with whoever else (D or F).
by UnarmingMermaid on Jul 17, 2008 1:33 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
few corrections!!!
I meant D end not D line…although my concerns are across the D line. And I confused Crowder with Thomas as the guy who has had some off field problems…Crowder should be good.
by UnarmingMermaid on Jul 17, 2008 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely disagree
With ek and doom as the starters and moss, crowder and engleberger spelling….......these are some solid D-ends. Its a good thing I don’t listen to mermaids when evaluating my team’s talent.
Michael Fabiano really knows nothing about football outside of regression analysis and stat extrapolation. If it doesn’t have to do with fantasy football, his opinion is worthless.
by kwool79 on Jul 17, 2008 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should know
I know what a good ‘end’ looks like.
Michael Fabiano really knows nothing about football outside of regression analysis and stat extrapolation. If it doesn’t have to do with fantasy football, his opinion is worthless.
by kwool79 on Jul 17, 2008 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis, as usual . . .
I expect Peterson to slide over into the rotation at DT. He is more of a DT, I think, than a DE. I also believe he is better than commonly viewed. The DEs don’t need him. The DTs do.
If the DE
by AZDynamics on Jul 17, 2008 1:53 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Peterson
Agreed. Peterson could impact both the DE and DT depth equation, and we didn’t talk about him when we covered the DTs.
I like to do roster cut-down analysis by grouping some positions together—DE & DT, S & CB, OG & OC, RB & FB, etc. Players often cover neighboring positions, and cutdown/depth decisions take this into consideration. Talking about the DEs without mentioning the fact that some of the athletes play DT, too, ignores this important consideration.
by Colinski on Jul 17, 2008 8:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what's going on, but it just saved on me before I finished. :(
If the DEs live up to their talent, I don’t know how they could be anything but an “A.” Ekuban
was a beast in the last half of 2006, and he claims to be fully healed now. Crowder will break out, I believe. That’s going to be quite a rotation on the strong side.
That is going to be quite a corps, I believe. No more “weak” DL. That’s part of my 11-5 season this year.
by AZDynamics on Jul 17, 2008 1:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anybody know
how Ek is moving on the Achilles? The report out of OTAs was that he was frustrated because it didn’t feel right, and Stokely was mentoring him about patience and getting a feel for his new ankle before he could trust it completely.
I think it is mostly in his head, like Stokely intimated. He doesn’t trust the twinges and such that he feels, even though he has assurances that they are normal.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 17, 2008 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adhesions
When recovering from and rehabbing such an injury, the body has a lot of very small and not so small areas of scar tissue and areas of ‘locking’ where the tissue ‘sticks’ to put it simply. The later are called adhesions. As they ‘break’ he will get more mobility in the Achilles. The process is painful, in degree, and it’s also necessary. He’s going to do fine. A lot of that later part of recovery from injury and surgeries deals with that issue, and it’s counter-intuitive when you feel pain and are told that it’s good. Ek is one tough hombre, and later in the season when he’s comfortable with it he’ll be even better.
Although I hope for good things in the first half of the season. We have a lot of great, but new, faces. A lot of our people will get more comfortable with the playbook and with each other as our season progresses. A favorable second half schedule and a solid learning curve should prove successful for us, although I sure wouldn’t turn down a fast start.
And I just found out that I’ll be sitting in San Deigo on Dec 28 and yelling my fool head off. Go Broncos!
Think where man's glory most begins and ends,
And let me say my glory was I had such friends
-Yeats-
by Emmett Smith on Jul 18, 2008 11:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sounds good!
Thanks doc!
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 18, 2008 11:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's All Dumervil
He is my second favorite player on the team next to Lynch.
"Hey Raiders fans!!! If you leave now you can beat traffic!"
-Rod Smith
by GarretBarnes on Jul 18, 2008 12:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
serious potential here
i really like this position. doom is a killer. he gets held on every other play, and now with some name recognition, perhaps he will get even more calls. he can’t be stopped. if ekuban returns to even 90% capacity, he will be a much-needed cog. solid veteran, who always seems to make plays. crowder is a little underrated, i think. i expect an excellent season out of him, as well. engelberger is solid, if not spectacular. i’m comfortable with him in there, on a limited basis. moss, i just never liked. call it a gut feeling, i just don’t see him ever living up to his draft status. he just doesn’t seem to have “it”, whereas doom has all of “it”. he needs to show me something this year, and i’m taking the injury into account. i hope he does, because that would catapult this position into solid “A” status. peterson shows promise, but needs to be more consistent, and has to step up his game to make the team. he may, he may not, but we do need a buckeye on the broncos. all these gators are embarassing us again. at least we cleared out the wolverines
by davecheffy on Jul 18, 2008 3:34 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Question
Does anybody think Shanny would try and use J Moss as a stand up rusher like the Cowboys use Demarcus Ware? He has the athleticism, and is bigger and maybe stronger than Ware. I think it would add an interesting wrinkle on that line in a passing situation.
by Bleedingblue&orange on Jul 18, 2008 4:03 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
jarvis moss
is NOT stronger than DeMarcus Ware. If you remember at the combine, Moss only put up 18 reps on bench. Now Foxworth put up 22 reps. Do you still think he is strong?
Michael Fabiano really knows nothing about football outside of regression analysis and stat extrapolation. If it doesn’t have to do with fantasy football, his opinion is worthless.
by kwool79 on Jul 18, 2008 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss is definitely taller
than ware, but he has always been considered “too light” coming into the nfl at 250. The combine only tells half of the story, and one of the halves was just how well Moss moves. His strength has always been lining up on the outside and going around players, not just with speed but with re- and mis-direction.
The upperbody strength that Kwool mentions hurts him most significantly in one area of his game: when opposing olinemen get their hands inside his shoulders, his goose is routinely cooked. As part of his ankle rehab, I would love to hear that he has increased his upperbody strength, but even if he hasn’t yet I have no doubt that he will eventually do just that. It is the only way he will see the playing time he needs to be a dominant force. He has good hands and can work on “out-techniquing” opposing olinemen, but that is not nearly as reliable as being able to hold your own and disengage with strength. There simply isn’t enough time to play patty-cake before most QBs have released the ball.
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 18, 2008 7:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question for HT
If I remember right, wasn’t one element of Bates’ vectoring scheme for the DEs to line up wide? Moss and Crowder both are ideal candidates for that kind of playing style, and Moss in particular could be an effective 5 technique “C” gapper or even a 7tech “D” gapper.
So if Moss and Crowder were ideal “system” picks for what Bates was trying to accomplish, does that perhaps say something about their long term viability in other systems? Moss was always considered a late first/early second round pick, due to his sheer, but raw, talent. Crowder was considered to be solidly in the 2nd round due to versatility. So there is certainly an argument that they are too talented to ever get pigeionholed by a system, but…
I guess what I am asking is if they are as ideally suited for “show-blitz” as they may have been for “run-contain”?
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 18, 2008 7:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes to all.
The wide alignment is part of the (contain) scheme to force plays to the inside. Speed is an issue, as well as intelligence / patience.
I would certainly say that they are a terrific fit for both schemes, and perhaps a better fit in Show Blitz. While the contain system requires some restraint, patience, and teamwork, the show will allow for talents (even “raw” talents) to just do what comes naturaly. If you see a tackle, take it! If you get the go ahead, knock of the QB’s head!
In the case of Crowder and Moss, I believe that they will thrive. It’s really a complex scheme at the coaching level (play calling), but for the individual players at the tactical level it is a very simple affair. It is a very “DE friendly” scheme.
In sum, if a DE can shine or even hold his own in the contain system, he should have the chances to perform at a higher level in the Show Blitz.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 19, 2008 5:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen Moss's guns lately?
I am of the distinct impression he is definitey stronger this year.
by AZDynamics on Jul 18, 2008 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could
see some of this first hand at training camp!
I will have to do it the old fashioned way (i.e. vicariously).
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 18, 2008 11:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to remember
J Moss did play some standing up last year , so I think that may be part of the plan already.
by okiebroncosfan on Jul 18, 2008 4:50 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
The only game I saw last year was the Pittsburgh game thanks to military programming in Europe so thanks for clearing that up for me.
by Bleedingblue&orange on Jul 18, 2008 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Crowder
saw the stand up look some too, and he actually seemed to really be effective.
An interesting game to watch to get a feel for our DEs is the Colts game last year, if you can get you hands on it. (If not email me and we will see if something can be worked out). On my laundry list of things to do with hoosierteacher is to sit down some day and analyze the defensive formations in that game. I believe we started every DE we had for that game, and they were on the field together for much of it..
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 18, 2008 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a list of things to do some day.
Some, I’ll never get to (I doubt I’ll ever host Saturday Night Live or get to spank Shania Twain). Some are still possible (a late in life run at law school, writing a novel or two).
But the chance to sit down with Styg and go over film has moved into my top ten for awhile now. Do I call Shania’s agent or Lorne Michaels to break the bad news?
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Jul 19, 2008 5:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't give up the Shania dream!!
Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 19, 2008 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
AWSOME REPORT
I like the fact that there is a lot of “undeveloped talent”, not so much “undeveloped” as not nowing how to play “safely”. When extreemly talented individuals at this level of any professional sport try to do more than their body is designed to do, that is when THEY create an injury that should not have happened. I am very excited, unlike a lot of individuals that I have seen post their remarks about our “potential” at defensive line! However, I am concerned about wheather or not the staff has a program that zones in on these “potential superstars,” to actually teach them “to tone down” in certain circumstances. The NFL is so tuned in to the “go all out” concept, that all these rookies come in, trying to win a job, and then end up over extending themselves physically, and get injured. Perhaps the medical staff needs to appoint someone to reveiw this issue and make recomendations as to restructuring the approch taken during the initial summer camp workouts, so that these superstars don’t self destruct durring pre-season!
Thanx again for the hard work and reseach that allows all of us bmainiax to live through the summer!!!!!
by metalman5050 on Jul 18, 2008 8:15 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
So much potential
is out there for these guys and I can’t wait to see how they do together. Dumervil is a stud and could easily make the ProBowl this year. I really want to see more of Crowder this season. I like what I saw and the kid has certainly got some speed as we saw in the PIT game.
Nice work Guru. I enjoy reading these.
by weazel on Jul 19, 2008 12:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

by 


























