How the Boss could help

by The Gun Young on Jul 19, 2008 12:15 PM MDT Comment 34 comments

I just joined MHR, so I missed the chance to blog about the concern over Boss Bailey, and his injury history, and the fact he is a natural Will instead of Sam linebacker.

Here are my thoughts on that. With Slowik's defense we will be going back to a pressure defense, similar to Coyer's. If you remember a few years back, one of the main problems we had against good teams with that defense was covering the quick passes to good TEs and running backs. We may have had three good corners, but teams would take advantage of our TE and back coverage to march down the field (see Indy and Clark, and San Diego and Gates). Even with a blitz or unpredictable pass rush combinations, we could not get there in time for these quick passes.

This is the reason we got Boss Bailey, and the reason for acquiring new Safeties, and the reason for trying Hamza Abdullah at safety - speed and pass coverage skills. This will be the defensive key to beating the good teams (San Diego, New England, Indy). Of course we will also need some turnovers, sacks, and the offense scoring lots of points. But these things are all possible with the Broncos current plan.

The eight in the box, pressure defense, will stop the run for the most part, it will pressure the QB, the key is we need good man to man coverage on the quick passes, and a few big plays. The coaches like Bailey's speed and chances of suceeding in man to man against TEs. So we will just have to wait and see if it works out.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Good points.

You make a very observant point on TE coverage. We are a division that has traditionaly had superior TEs (Davis, Gates, Gonzales, to name a few). Denver’s answer has been to have light-speed LBs. At one time, the trio of Williams, Gold, and Wilson could match the speed of many DBs.

But the recent trade offs we’ve made (a system requiring more power, a SS specializing in stopping the run, etc) brought different advantages and disadvatages. Last year, the chemicals didn’t mix well to present a solid defensive structure. Everything in life, everything, is an exchange. Now, Denver seems to be trading it’s way into a more potent situation. Return to speed along the DL, and speed at LB. Bring in speed at SAF.

TEs will still give Denver problems (as will screens to the RBs). That’s the cost of the system. On the other hand, teams won’t do as well with runs inside or out (our speed should negate sweeps, having players bunched near the line in “show” works against the interior run), and our CBs should benefit from the new pressure on opposing QBs.

If Boss can cover the TEs, then this is great. It takes pressure off of Lynch, and it allows us to keep Champ on opposing WRs. I’m very hopeful that the move to a man system will help Boss out, instead of being in the zone system he was in at Detroit.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 19, 2008 1:10 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs

Thanks for the explanation HT

Who is Boss’s backup? What is the drop in speed?

What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us. - Emerson

by firstfan on Jul 19, 2008 11:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to tell.

Here’s a good article on the concerns about the position (and comments as well). Hat tip to Styg. I was thinking it would be Webster, but now Webster is competing for his natural spot (MLB).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 20, 2008 3:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both of you make good points

Recommended!

Think where man's glory most begins and ends,
And let me say my glory was I had such friends
-Yeats-

by Emmett Smith on Jul 19, 2008 2:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I think that Boss will definitely help with TE coverage, but if I recall some of our best success came when we ran the “Big Nickel” package with Sam Brandon before his knee injury. In my scheming little brain I actually see a player that might develop into that role. UDFA Wesley Woodyard’s size and speed combo seems like it might be ideal for the big nickel role Brandon used to play. Barrett also seems like he might be a candidate, but for some reason I really like Woodyard’s potential for this type of duty.

Thoughts?

by jaffe28 on Jul 19, 2008 4:19 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I like the idea

Woodward seems like a keeper, but one without a position—a ‘tweener,’ like Mecklenburg, who was too small for the line and too big for LB. As a formal problem it’s very similar, but Woodyard is S/LB tweener. Do you think he might fit in somehow as a pass rushing/mid to short zone hybrid. I see him as Rover type, bigger than your average safety but a little too small to be a run stopper when positioned at the normal LB location.

Just brainstorming here, somebody chime in.

by Colinski on Jul 19, 2008 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they’ll probably call him a LB when all is said and done but I doubt he’ll play much on run downs unless he somehow is forced into regular duty by injuries. I see him as an athlete that can cover the TE in man coverage or do reasonably well covering a regular LB zone. He has 4.5 speed at about 230 so should be able to hold his own against a TE. I think he’ll be fine in run support if he’s playing more as a strong safety, though I think he might manage alright at Will if he ever has to. He just strikes me as the sort of player you want on the field and a Big Nickel package seems like a good way to do it.

I also think he’ll be a demon on special teams and lord knows we need some of those.

BTW, ferrets are the best!

by jaffe28 on Jul 19, 2008 11:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two things regarding his measurables

His timed speed is misleading. Sometimes you see it on the field, sometimes you don’t. See my long-winded reply below to see why.

His weight is misleading. 230 is a good weight, but it is 15 lbs heavier than he averaged as a playing weight at Kentucky. He has done this before, put on weight to allay concerns about his size. The feeling is that if he spends any time at all on an active roster he will whittle right back down to 215 like always.

I will say this: when the scouts asked him about this in his combine interviews, and they basically stated that they thought he would be back down to 215 before the season started, he very quietly and confidently told them they were wrong this time. “I’m here to turn heads,” he said at the time. And you know what? Despite every logical fiber in my body saying otherwise, I believe him!

But then, that’s the kind of guy Woodyard is. He makes you want to believe. :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 20, 2008 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is a tough call, but I agree we need to find ways to get him on the field.

Consider that (besides his heart and “football player-ism”) he has one very major assett and one very major flaw.

His assett is his tackling. He is an amazing tackler, who gets into the biggest scrums and isn’t afraid to take on some of the toughest runners. He wraps well, breaks down well, and when he hits he does it with a Lynch-like velocity that got him his share of forced fumbles at Kentucky. he also shows wrap up awareness and routinely gets his hands on the ball. If a ballcarrier isn’t securing the ball consistently, Woodyard is the guy you want making the tackle! I actually see him as an excellent runstopping LB from the weakside, but out depth there suggests that he will have more longevity if he backs up both the WLB and SS positions. The one concern most people have is that he wouldn’t hold up, and in the NFL that may prove to be true, but at Kentucky, out of 47 contests he missed exactly ONE start due to injury. He is a tough hombre. I have a much bigger concern, and I feel that if he fails to make it in the NFL, the following will be the reason.

His major flaw is that he has the tightest hips I have seen in a collegiate player in a long time. Think about how this impacts both positions he is suited for. Because he doesn’t dip his hips well, or swivel well, or turn and go well, as a LB he is most effective with the play in front of him. Easier said than done, and opposing offenses could effectively eliminate him from run support simply by running away from him, which if he is WLB, that means running to their predominant side anyways. The tight hips are a liability covering a TE in a major way, since he would have to essentially drop back and zone, if he wants to keep the TE in front o of him. He does have one strength in covering TEs and that is when he covers them at the line as he shows very good hand technique and good strength in rerouting players (something that Jack Williams and Spencer Larsen are also known for….curious…). But I don’t see him rerouting guys like Gonzalez or Gates, yet. So he isn’t a good fit at SAM or WILL.

But what about SS? A drop back into a mid zone could be a frequent call, with the TE in front of him, but that means one safety is covering the entire defensive backfield. (I don’t know if this is a huge concern, since we do this a lot anyways…) He originally went to Kentucky to be a SS, but the moved him to WLB to take advantage of his tackling and aggressiveness, and to lessen the impact of his inability to do any form of deep coverage. If we moved him to SS it would mean we are hoping that he can loosen his hips and keep up with plays that threaten to get behind him, somehting he hasn’t been able to do in the past. Remember, this isn’t about speed. His speed looks great on paper, but he can’t do some of the things on the field that you would expect a fast player to be able to do. Staright line and closing he is a ballistic missle. Turn and cover or swiveling to track the ball and he looks pretty darn ordinary.

The middle ground here is the big-nickle safety that you guys are talking about, but Brandon was a more versatile player from the SS position, so he was able to cover areas that Woodyard probably can’t. Yet. I agree that this is a good place to utilize him game in and game out intially, as a fill in role when we are running the big nickle consistently, where his major impact could be on STs. With time and coaching he might be able to loosen up and when he does the size and shape of his zone, and the variety of routes he can cover in man should improve significantly. He has shown to be easily coached and dedicated at filmstudy and in the weight room, so he is made of the right stuff to be molded into a much better player, so he just needs to play mistake free to guarantee that he will keep getting reps.

In summary, prep him as a SS, give him WLB chores as 3rd string depth, run the hell out of him on STs and let the chips fall where they may. If we can get a consistent personnell package that delivers in the big-nickle formation, that would be great for his development, since it gives him a chance to play the run, zone cover and man cover, all from a spot on the field where he can keep the action in front of him, while he learns better technique.

I will add this caveat: despite what we can see him acheiving with time on the field, I am positive that there is only one way that he can make this team in the preseason, and that is if he knocks some heads off on STs (he shines as a wedgebuster). The Broncos simply can’t wait for him to contribute somehow as part of an active roster, and there is no room on this team for a “developing big nickle” safety. Even if he shows promise in his development, if he isn’t getting it done on STs, he will probably be lucky to even see the practice squad.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 20, 2008 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs

It didn't seem that long when

I was typing it! :)

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 20, 2008 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

let me tell you...

using two fingers and an occasional thumb it would have taken me a month to do an analysis such as this. Very informative.

by Mike Clark on Jul 20, 2008 6:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

sigh

all that typing and I didn’t even make my point! He should be a WLB candidate for the long term, because of his tackling and football instincts. He should be studying the SS position in the short term to address his fatal flaw (stiffness) and get reps during games. And he needs to be a special teams ace so that he has a chance to be on the active roster.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 20, 2008 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks styg, that’s the best analysis I’ve seen of Woodyard anywhere. Really helps me clarify the way I’m thinking about him and tempers my enthusiasm without really hurting my hopes for him.

The one thing that’s for sure is his need to contribute on special teams to make the roster. With that, I think he’s got all the makings though.

by jaffe28 on Jul 20, 2008 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

definitely

needs to turn some heads in preseason to be kept around. But I like his enthusiasm and drive, and hope his football intelligence helps him compensate for the shortcomings so far.

I am not sure I see WLB as a great spot for him – on the Broncos. D.J. ain’t goin’ nowhere, and Winborn was just wrapped up for several years. No, I see him as a hard hitting SS/Big Nickel type. Maybe run some 4-4 Stack to get him reps and tie up big AFC West TE’s.

Can someone with more knowledge than me speak to whether “stiff hips” is realistically a train-away-able flaw? Can you unlearn/stretch/soften hip stiffness, or is this just a natural physiological shortcoming?

by jonahsilas on Jul 21, 2008 8:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

he can go to a physical therapist

and they can work on the flexibility of his hips . i hurt my back and they are working on the flexibility of my hips in regular therapy and also pool therapy—it really is working . it really could only benfit him to try this.

by okiebroncosfan on Jul 22, 2008 1:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's good to hear

especially since my back is all jacked up too! Good luck, Okie. Hope your back feels better, soon.

I wonder if the Broncos training staff is already working on this with him…

by jonahsilas on Jul 22, 2008 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

ty jonah ,

it actually is called ” work hardening ” therapy and it is really tough , but it works and that is what counts. Good Luck with your back also , this may be something you will want to try down the line . off to therapy I go .

by okiebroncosfan on Jul 22, 2008 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the info

I will have new benefits September 1st, which (finally) include chiropractic and acupuncture and I am going to try to get to the bottom of my ongoing back spasm problems…. Perhaps some work hardening is in order.

Thanks again, and again, best of luck with it!

by jonahsilas on Jul 22, 2008 10:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

P.S.

IME – the hardest physical therapy is often most effective – and YES – that is what counts! PT is not a walk in the park, but when done right is an absolute joy to get through.

by jonahsilas on Jul 22, 2008 11:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was having back spasms so bad

that I could not leave the house- I could not walk when the spasms hit. I asked my doctor(on a referral from my nuclear pharmacist oldest brother) to give me steroid injections straight into the muscles that were locked up in my back- he did and I have been without spasms for 3 months- i have a LIFE again. the doctor told me I made 1 mistake today- it is a work conditioning rehab instead of work hardening rehab

Good Luck Yourself Jonah and take care of yourself-if you would like my phone # just yell and it is yours.

by okiebroncosfan on Jul 23, 2008 4:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ouch

Mine rarely get so bad that I cannot do anything, but they make everything less comfortable… I have been trying to avoid the medication route, but we will see when I start working on it.

I have a big backpacking trip coming up, and I am stable enough to do it, and then a wedding to star in in October. After that, I will have some space to mess with the system.

Thanks for the offer of contact info. When I get to doctoring myself, I may just hit you up.

My best wishes for you back!

by jonahsilas on Jul 25, 2008 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It depends.

With some people it is a physical issue (build), with some it is learned over the course of a lifetime (similar to posture, but not impossible to correct), and with some it is a physical issue not related to build. I don’t know which is the case in Woodyard’s issue, but he’s now in the hands of sports training experts. If something can be done, it will.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 22, 2008 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The therapy point is interesting Okie

I am thinking that it is more a “learned” stiffness like HT is suggesting. I really have no idea how you would tell the difference, and my opinion is pretty much relying on my subconscious observations of Woodyard at Kentucky. It would be a good question to ask him at training camp.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 22, 2008 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I asked my therapist about it

he is pretty good , he has a masters in physical therapy . He said not everyone is the same- it might help it might not ,the muscle fibers that connect to the hip bones and area( he gave me a more technical answer- I am just dumbing it down : ) may not be long enough to allow for a substantial gain in flexibility but it could not hurt to try . He has the heart to be good so please ask this question at training camp styg

by okiebroncosfan on Jul 22, 2008 6:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was kind of my guess

as usual it is neither just nature or nurture, but a blend of the two. The human body is fascinating to me. I sure wish hip stiffness was the worst of my physical ailments!

HT’s point is well taken – if anyone can correct this issue an NFL training staff can. Now if I could only get access to them for my back problems… :-)

Styg – ask away, and also tell Woody that he has a whole bunch of folks rooting for him over at MHR (including this Kentucky boy).

by jonahsilas on Jul 22, 2008 11:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

hip-flip & other brainstorms

Sorry about the late reply.

The hip-flip problem is what concerned me on Woodyard, along with scouting reports that said he had problems when teams ran directly at him—a function of size, no doubt. Other reports viewed his weight as a serious liability at LB, which made me wonder about the accuracy of his recently listed weight.

My solution to the conundrum was to keep the play in front of him by stationing him deeper rather than forcing him to backpeddle and then hip-flip to cover receivers. The best I can say for my idea is that it has some utility in certain situations, but it also provides a vulnerability for the offense to exploit. I’ve been pondering Safety/LB hybrids for some time. Simply being a tweener isn’t enough however, there are ‘best of both worlds’ and ‘worst of both worlds’ scenarios. I don’t mind Woodyard as a smallish LB but a hybrid S/LB would have to pass cover, that’s the whole idea of the experiment. You want to create mismatches for the opponents; not yourself.

It’s annoying to find a weakness in a player that prevents them from making the roster, especially when they have a terrific skill that could be utilized. Woodyard led the SEC in tackles the last two years so he’s an extremely intriguing talent. He could learn to execute the hip-flip, but he’s probably going to have to do it while on the practice squad. He looks too weak in pass coverage because of his problem (if we accept the scouting reports) to make it at SS and his best position, Will, is already too crowded, although many have already moved elsewhere, like Bailey.

I’d dearly to see some new, young talent added to the LB corps, so it’s frustrating to conclude that neither Woodyard nor Larsen (because of crowding at Mike) has particularly good chances to make the roster. I like Larsen’s chances a little better, although a 3rd string MLB (or 4th, behind Beck) is an extravagance. STs, as always, may win him a ticket, but if he’s kept on the 53 man squad it will be because we have adequate depth with the first five LBs, which then allows us the luxury of keeping him on rather than risking losing him.

A few added thoughts—injury concerns make keeping developmental-type of players on the 53 man squad too risky. We’ll keep many on the practice squad, but they could be claimed by others, and they could contribute now and would develop faster if they saw some time (in most cases). I’d love to see the Broncos take a risk on some of the young LBs. They could always justify it as a move to improve STs (and it would). I just think that the defense needs an infusion of youthful talent. Sometimes it pays off as their enthusiasm becomes contagious.

by Colinski on Jul 21, 2008 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

attacking style defense

The subject of what kind of defense we’ll play could make a very interesting poll question. Maybe we could get people’s opinions on the topic before camp starts, and it would be interesting to hear why people believe certain schemes will help us.

Baily does seem more at home in a defense that allows him to frequently blitz, as does D.J. Williams. Bailey himself raised the issue of why he was taken out on passing downs in Detroit. Although he emphatically denies being a liability in pass coverage, it still seems quite likely that he’s better at blitzing than pass coverage. Of course, one of the main points of a show blitz system is to create confusion rather than merely blitz on every play.

From what I understand, the show blitz scheme lets the defense actively counter-attack and disrupt the offense’s tendencies, which sounds preferable to allowing long drives that also tire the defense. I’ve come to embrace the thinking that it’s ‘time’ and not yards that hurt. Giving up the big play may sometimes be a trade-off in the show blitz scheme, but it seems even worse to let the opponent’s offense control the ball for long stretches and then score anyways. To invert an often repeated platitude: the best defense is a good offense. I think we’ll be successful controlling the ball in the running game, and that’s also why I’m very concerned with the short passing game, since it allows drives to continue.

by Colinski on Jul 19, 2008 4:36 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

fwiw

I’m thinking that if we don’t run Coyer’s system, we might run a zone bliz. Either system matches clues we’ve received from quotes here and there.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 19, 2008 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

why not both?

At least on a frequent basis if not the base scheme. I was actually pondering the idea of Moss in pass defense. He looks like someone that could ably man a short zone.

by Colinski on Jul 19, 2008 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

They'll run plays that are...

...both heavy blitz and zone blitz, but the overarching philosophy behind what they are trying to do should fit into one scheme or the other. (Just as teams that aren’t west coast will run some plays that one might associate with being a west coast offense. We try to define a team’s system by it’s predominant plays and objectives, even though there is bound to be overlap).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jul 20, 2008 3:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome to MHR!

fader nation is a conquered nation

The creator of the following names:

conquered fader nation
Phyllis and his merry men

by mdierk on Jul 19, 2008 4:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Great points Gun Welcome to MHR

by Mike Clark on Jul 19, 2008 8:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Great discussions.

I am really enjoying the discussions on these blogs. There seems to be a lot of football knowledge from people here, and everyone is positive and respectful.

I do not know much about Woodyard, but I am curious about the “tight hips.” I wonder if the cone drill or shuttle drill would reflect the relative hip speed? If so, were his times in those tests poor? I would agree that if he has poor hip shifting ability, he will struggle at both safety and linebacker.

I also don’t know about why Boss Bailey may have struggled in pass coverage in Detroit, unless he simply struggled with zone coverage and the discipline and coverage reading and adjusting necessary for good zone coverage.

I know the Broncos have had fast linebackers for some time, but I feel a primary weakness of Coyer’s defense was playing the underneath zone with our linebackers too much. Against good passing teams with good TEs and receiving backs we just could not get there in time to stop the key first downs, when we really needed to.

Whether we play a “show blitz” or a “zone blitz” defense, they are both still eight in the box, pressure defenses, so either still better fits our personnel better than other systems, especially Bates’ system. But I really think, and hope Slowik, does plan more man coverage underneath on key third down plays. I also agree that pressure defenses create more punts, but is also vulnerable to more big plays. And I agree that big plays is a better risk than a defense which prevents big plays but allows long drives, which wears down our defense, and keeps our offense on the sideline.

To me the key for the Broncos to be successful, other than staying relatively healthy, is (1) Defensively to be able to get some stops on third downs with good man coverage, and to also force as many big plays (sacks, fumbles, INTs) as they give up, and (2) Offensively to score a lot of points 27+ a game. I really think they have the potential to do this with their personnel and schemes.

by The Gun Young on Jul 20, 2008 10:32 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

FWIW

I did a little Woodyward writeup/defense a little while ago that you can see here.

I like him to make the practice squad, at least, and to use his significant athleticism and hard hitting style to mitigate the stiff hips…. But then I am sorta a Kentucky homer. ;-)

by jonahsilas on Jul 21, 2008 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs