Mile High Report: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: World Soccer Digest for Soccer Fans!

Altitude as it affects player sizes and schemes...

This is something that's been lurking in the back of my mind but was brought into focus this week when the "big" and "powerful" Dallas Cowboys came into town.  

As has been thoroughly written about by HT and others, teams build their rosters with the types of players who fit their systems.  To use the examples we'll see this week, the Broncos run what I still like to call the "rocky mountain" offense (HT calls it zone block one cut / west coast passing).  An essential component of this offense is a smaller, quicker, and more athletic offensive line - it's been this way for a while - anyone else remember the lead-up to the Green Bay Superbowl during which the popular consensus was that the Broncos were substantially out-manned on the line(s)?  

The Cowboys are different up front: massive and powerful.  This is directly related to their offensive philosophy - power running and pocket passing.  

The contrasts exist in the same way on defense due to Denver using a 1-gap 4-3 and Dallas using a 3-4.   Now, after all of this babbling, I'll get to the point.  Coaches obviously prefer doing things a certain way when it comes to offensive and defensive philosophies.   But what effect do the unique conditions presented by playing in Denver (at 5'200) have on these philosophies, if any?  Is it just a coincidence that Denver traditionally fields light and athletic (read well-conditioned and fit) linemen and linebackers?  Or, did someone figure out pretty quickly that too much beef would mean too much time on the bench sucking O2?

These questions just kinda smacked me over the head a few hours ago and I'd be curious to see your thoughts, if any, on the matter. 

Cheers.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

2 recs  |  Comment 15 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

5280

"I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together." - The Beatles

by Denver_Native on Aug 14, 2008 8:30 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

My thought

I always thought it was because in a zone blocking scheme the linemen need to get down the field fast. You have to be at a specific place at a scecific time, really fast. It never crossed my mind that it was because of the altitude. But good question.

"I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together." - The Beatles

by Denver_Native on Aug 14, 2008 8:33 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe we've had lighter linemen for decades...

even Elway had fit linemen running around blocking for him during his entire career. I think that was why we were blown up in the Super Bowls too…

That all changed with Alex Gibbs whose system worked to perfection with smaller, fitter olinemen. Zone block scheme is what a small line must run in the NFL in order to be successful 100% of the time.

If God is not a Bronco fan, then WHY are sunsets Blue and Orange? - Jon Tollerud 5/22/08

I got a high ankle sprain in college and it still hurts! ~ TSG 8/13/08

by Tim Lynch on Aug 14, 2008 9:08 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Altitude does make a difference

If you look at some of the schools that win cross country national championships, you will see that Western State (Gunnison, CO: Elev. 7800 ft) and Adams State (Alamosa, CO: Elev. 7500 ft) have many championships.

As for football, you have players that come in from other cities that have a much lower elevation and they will need more breaks and hydration to cope with Denver’s environment. Having lighter people may be coincidental, but conditioning is crucial.

fader nation is a conquered nation

The creator of the following names:

conquered fader nation
Phyllis and his merry men

by mdierk on Aug 14, 2008 10:38 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I honestly

dont buy into it that much, for example when I use to golf in Denver I could/can hit an 8 iron 165 yards. Down here in SD i can still my 8 165. I have been back to Colorado may times. I have been living at sealevel since 1987, I dont notice any difference. Sure running you may need more O2 after a sustained run. BTW when I was at Northglenn HS we had one of the best CC teams in the state.We won state 2 of 3 my 3 years there. Ya when I went to HS it was for 3 years. but i honestly believe its physcological. I am all for it.

by broncfanstuckinsd on Aug 15, 2008 12:02 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I think ball distance is overhyped.

I agree there. But in terms of conditioning and training…well…read my comment below (I’m typing it now, give it a couple of minutes).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 15, 2008 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zone blocking has nothing to do with altitude, everything to do with movement

The idea that we have geared ourteam due to altitude is interesting, I would say that you have to look at who we play versus the idea of high altitude, the problem is that many of the teams we now play have gone with our scheme and our scheme was really developed at the 49ers who play at sea level. I think it is more predicated on Shannan philosphy of creating mismatches in the running game by being able to have his line man move and making the defense adjust and play diciplined than anything.

Broncoman

by Broncoman on Aug 15, 2008 12:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right -

San Francisco under Bob McKittrick(sp?) was the first modern offense to use a light, athletic, zone-blocking line. And you’re also right that the concept has proliferated to Oakland, Houston, and possibly other places at sea level. So it’s not a Denver invention, nor is it exclusively used at altitude.

Getting back to the original point of my post, let me ask this: Would a team featuring wide-loads up front (Leonard Davis, Toniu Fonoti, Ted Washington….. – I’m talkin’ big) be at a disadvantage due to less oxygen?

"The angel is no more than the shark well-governed." -Herman Melville

by jadunn on Aug 15, 2008 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

The bigger they are, the less cardiovascular health they have (which isn’t to say they are unhealthy). The ideal build for altitude is a runner’s physique. (If you get a chance, see the Everest climbers or even US Special Forces guys. They look more like runners and nothing like a Schwarzenager or a Stallone).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 15, 2008 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does our scheme have to do with altitude?

I doubt we considered that as a factor, but it’s an interesting thought.

However, I want to stress what a huge advantage training at altitude has. After all, the US Olympic Training Center is in Colorado Springs for a reason.

There are bio-chemical changes tha happen when a person moves up and down in altitude. Some take place over the course of a few hours, and some over the course of a few weeks or months. The military even adjust training scheduals for troops assigned to Ft. Carson for this reason. Denver’s players not only process oxygen and release carbon dioxide more effectively at high altitude, but they also have a late game advantage at low altitudes (if they arrive near game day). There’s a reason you see more opponents sucking on oxygen at Invesco Mile High than Denver players.

It is a pronounced advantage. For anyone who has studied medicine and looked at some of the circumstances that surrounded the Mexico City Olympics (way up there) many years ago, the issue becomes profoundly clear. Perhaps our resident Doc (Bear) can let us in on some altitude medicine.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 15, 2008 2:00 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

game theory

There are physical adaptations to altitude like the increase in red blood cells that allow the body to carry more oxygen in the blood stream (and thus a popular form of blood doping is self transfusion), but the crux of problem is whether those adaptations put a team at a disadvantage when competing at sea level. As HT ably says above, the fitness level increases because of altitude, which aids those who train at altitude and is one reason why the Olympic training center was placed in Colorado Springs, which is at an altitude of ~7000 ft. Therefore, athletes who train at altitude have a general stamina advantage (see HT’s post).

Last year’s immovable objects tired noticeably during games, and this was one of their failings along with others. If you’re "thinking outside the box’ you would want to have a trade-off that didn’t disadvantage you in some ways while still giving you an advantage in other ways. In other words, you don’t want to play a ‘zero-sum’ game.

What the Broncos really need to do is control the ball on offense, and the zone blocking scheme does this as does the high percentage passing of the West Coast Offense. The point is to tire the defense out by lengthening the Time of Possession. Scoring too fast can actually be a problem if it puts your defense on the field too often or too soon after they’ve stopped the opponent’s offense.

The flip side of this idea is in how you play defense. A high risk defense either stops the opponent or doesn’t, but in either case it’s not on the field for long. The idea is to avoid having your opponent do to you what you are trying to do to him.

Viewing the problem as a simple trade-off between size and stamina is somewhat misleading, however, since proficiency is more important than size alone. Denver lost Super Bowls because, for instance, Dave Studdard wasn’t as good as Gary Zimmerman, not because one was the wrong size. The Bronco offense of the 90s was simply more talented than the 80s ones.

I like the idea of zone blocking but not simply because of a size/stamina trade-off. One advantage Denver has is that they’re not competing for the big OLs that everyone else wants. That could change if more teams adopt zone blocking and Denver’s ideal OL body type becomes more in demand. I also like the idea of a defense that creates more decision making problems for opposing offensive players, because I think it tires them out. It can also tire us out, too, however. I also think having more speed is generally indicated. I think the idea here is very much like that behind the Tampa-2 schemes.

by Colinski on Aug 15, 2008 5:34 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good points all.

One trend that disturbs me (as a Broncos fan) is that the other teams are starting to emulate us. Just under a third of the 32 teams in the NFL run the ZB (that I know of). Of those teams, not all of them have gone “all in” and adopted it, and a few drop it for lack of patience. But it seems for every team that drops it, two teams move forward with serious intent.

This will make the competition for our kind of OL tougher (as you point out). I wonder how high Clady would have ranked a few years ago?

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 15, 2008 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Altitude

I used to share a clinic with an expert on high altitude conditioning and nutrition. Heck of an interesting field – I’m not that expert, but I can add a few things.

HT’s point regarding changes that occur when moving up and down in altitude is well taken. Babies who are born at altitude (In the cases I studied this meant at or above 9000 ft) have a slightly but mearsurably larger heart and lungs, they process oxygen better and are physiologically designed to live at those altitudes. Those individuals who are born at lower altitude and move upward are at a slight disadvantage against them in cardiovascular based sports. Four quarters of a football game would qualify, certainly.

But most people who go up to a mile high adapt in a few hours to a few weeks, and that spectrum seems to be mostly genetic, although propler training does also play an important role. One study showed that the vast majority of athletes adapt in about 3 days – but I believe that most football teams come in the day before a game, so they are at a constant disadvantage in our house.

The degree of that disadvantage is individual. There is one statement that you hear a lot that I’ll disagree with a bit – being larger doesn’t mean that you necessarily have poor cardiovascular conditioning. It means that you have to train differently from a smaller person to achieve it.

The wrestlers of India are among the best conditioned people in the world. In a heavyweight match of an unlimited time limit, an American heavyweight wrestler was heartened to hear a audible huh-huh-huh from his opponent thinking that it meant that he was tiring. Not so – it’s how they breath normally during exercise. The match went on for 6 hours, and the American nearly died. It wasn’t an unusually long match for the Indian, though. It’s all in the conditioning. Yes, it’s tiring to push arond an extra 50 or so lbs throughout workouts, and a lot of pro athletes do dog it at times, but if you do it long enough and properly, you get in enviable condition. A large individual with great strength and cardio conditioning who has ‘Sweet Feet’ for example can be the best of both worlds and can be a heck of an advantage for his team (Train, Ryan train!).

The big guys often get distracted by the power end of the equation. Holland was an example of this – he is more powerful from a strength perspective than at any time in his career, but was in poor cardio condition and overweight – no help to us, nor to himself. He could have been at his strongest AND in great cardio shape – he just needed to train for it.

Nutrition is also a big key – I won’t bore you all with it, but as you ascend in altitude, the importance of nutrition beccomes even more essential. The body can process energy, for example, via certain ‘good’ fats (think EVOO) and the B vitamins (I’m oversimplifying). Without them, or if too many foods that consume them are eaten, the conditioning will inevitably suffer.

General as this is, I hope it helps. Sorry if it’s a bit long.

Atwater for the Hall!

by Emmett Smith on Aug 17, 2008 12:11 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Breathing

I’m always astonished to see athletes breathing rapidly when they have been working hard – it’s clear they are only using the top part of their lungs. They should be employing slow, deep breaths, getting the air in and out of the entirelung, so more surface area of the lung is available to process what needs to be processed ( old crud out, new good stuff in).
I read somewhere that the entire surface area of a human lung is about the same as a football field, but most athletes are only using about 20 yards worth.

while yet unspoken, you are master of the word. After it is spoken, the word is master of you.

by bradley on Aug 17, 2008 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point Doc.
There is one statement that you hear a lot that I’ll disagree with a bit – being larger doesn’t mean that you necessarily have poor cardiovascular conditioning. It means that you have to train differently from a smaller person to achieve it.

Point well taken. I defer.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Aug 17, 2008 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

MileHighReport(MHR) is the ultimate independent resource for the Denver Broncos on the web. Along with MHR Radio, the official podcast of MHR, we look to provide hardcore Denver Broncos fans positive, independent insight about the Broncos, 24/7/365!
Start posting about the Broncos »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

The-big-lebowski_small
The Dude Abides...It's Charger Limerick Time...Again
Milehighstadium_small
Terror Alert in Chicago
Small
Understanding the NFL Running Game
Small
Understand the Passing Game in the NFL
Tahoetim_small
The Lynch Perspective - A Crossroads Edition

Recent FanPosts

Ah-64_apache_helicopter_small
Ryan McBean, the difference maker?
Clay-davis2_small
Is Anybody There? We will win on Sunday - here's why
Broncos-1024x768_small
The Art of "The Deep Ball"
Wall1_small
First Upset of the week!
Small
Should Orton Start If Healthy?
Walter_drawn_small
Momentum: The Potential for Potential
Small
How short the leash?
Tahoetim_small
Il Duca
Denver_small
Orton missies 3rd practice - game time decision
Nelson_broncos1_small
Broncos Tickets

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Latest NFL Headlines from SB Nation

Stampede Blue
Winning Stats Power Rankings: Week 11
Big Cat Country
Shallow Thoughts and Aimless Musings
Battle Red Blog
Steve Slaton To Start On Monday Night

Getting Social With MHR

Facebook_badge_medium_medium
Black_generated_button

Milehighreport_email_medium

MHR Radio

SPONSORS

Web Stuff


General Manager/Head Coach

Milehighreport_small John Bena

Cyborg_small Jeremy Bolander

Asst. Head Coach

Mhr_small Steve Nichols

Tahoetim_small Tim Lynch

J_elway_870111_640_small Douglas A. Lee

Plato_bust_small Emmett Smith

Denver-broncos-button_small Ted Bartlett

The-big-lebowski_small TJ Johnson

Quality Control

800px-john_brown_painting_small mdierk