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Quick Question: Texans & Cutblocks

So I was reading this (w/ video featuring Stinky Schlereth) and when combined with some other reports from a lot of teams, not just the Broncos or Texans, it got me thinking..What kind of increased injury risk do the Broncos D face for being the first team to line up against the Texans this season? Any first year ZBO team for that matter.

I have no issues with the Texans using Gibbs' scheme and using cuts. As we are all aware, Gibbs is the man. And cutblocking, which has been around for centuries, is a perfectly legit and effective way to move the ball. I'd think that the Broncos would obviously be better equipped than other defenses at dealing with his run-blocks because they have the opportunity to practice against it. This question came to mind however, because as mentioned in the espn article and discussion, players are not going game speed in camp, particularly on the line. Meanwhile, the players get hyped up for that first moment where they do finally get a chance to go out and line up against another team and REALLY smack somebody. Which means our D-line, who are gonna be hyped up themselves, going out to battle with a bunch of guys who are potentially getting their first chance to use a ZB scheme, cuts in particular, at full speed. Possible recipe for disaster? Admittedly I know little about the Texan's line and their level of previous experience in a ZBO, Myers is there, dunno where he sits. I am definitely not trying to put the whammy on us, and I would cry and regret ever posting this if a Bronco got rolled up tomorrow. Just hoping to get some more insight on the subject.

Is there greater risk if the Texans are getting beat off the jump for whatever reason, be it inexperience, rust or speed on our line, that we will see guys falling and sprawling, clipping and chopping? More risk from this being the first full-speed, full-contact exercise for everyone? The Broncos haven't even had pants on in camp yet. Which says little about their level of preparation but it does illustrate that the D-line doesn't generally need to worry about their legs in practice.

Anyway it's an interesting article and discussion. What you think?

Somebody tell me there's nothing to worry about!!

Sir ht's beautiful breakdown of zone-blocking = more on cuts vs. chops

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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I don't think it has ever been shown

that cut-blocking has caused any higher incidence of injuries. That is, above and beyond normal football play injuries.

I’m going off of memory here, so I could be wrong, and I don’t feel like looking it up right this min.

Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960

by Darin H on Aug 8, 2008 8:16 PM MDT   0 recs

Rules have changed a lot.

Rule changes have changed cut blocking a lot. Back when the Broncos were dominating, with TD, before they started changing the rules, players could be cut front side or back side anywhere in the box. Now you can only cut if your head is in front of the player, and on the play side. You can’t even cut backside pursuit (away from initial ball direction) like they could back in ‘96-’98.

The rule changes have been dramatic in minimizing the effect of Gibb’s ZB system (especially the stretch play), and quite frankly I am surprised there has not been more talk about it over the years. I believe the rule changes are one reason the Broncos have never had as good a running game since those days, and it is another reason the Broncos have been trying to get bigger (yet still maintain their quickness) on the OL. I also believe speed through the hole is more important now, because that backside pursuit player is not always laying on the ground (like when TD ran the ball). So the Broncos need speed (Young, Hall) to run the stretch play more effectively.

Anyway, to answer your question, considering the rules now, I think D-linemen should be able to handle the cut blocks without injury, because the rules now allow for the lineman to see it coming. It still slows them down, and can still be effective (just not as effective as back in the day, back then it was devastating). But D-linemen can now protect themselves.

by The Gun Young on Aug 9, 2008 12:14 AM MDT   0 recs

Good Reply TGY

Good reply “The Gun Young”.

Victor Frankl:

What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.

by wyoeng on Aug 9, 2008 8:29 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I am tired of this

Its the same thing year after year. If it was sooooo bad, it would be illegal. Carolina and Atlanta both employ it also. Its just denver is so successfull with it. Its the way of the MSM to always try and bring something down to what works.

by broncfanstuckinsd on Aug 9, 2008 11:37 AM MDT   0 recs

Good question.

I think the answer is found in the article that one of the editors linked at the end of your post. I wrote it a few months ago, and the debate (if you can call it that) that followed with a troll is very educational (if a little personal and out of bounds at points).

Briefly, the NFL has reviewed and found the method of blocking used by both Denver and Houston (and several other teams that employ zone blocking) to meet three criteria. The method is safe, it is fair, and it is effective. The NFL has not found the method used (cut blocking) to be illegal, nor have they determined that it causes injuries at a rate any higher than other legal methods. This is simply a myth. People can compile injury lists from any safe and legal method, but that doesn’t make a case in itself.

Here are a few quotes from the article (and the comments section). I still recommened that you read the entire work.

I hear Denver “chop blocks”. What is a chop block?
Denver, like all other teams, will have penalties. Denver doesn’t chop block more or less then any other team. What Denver does do purposely is “cut block”. Chop blocking is illegal and dangerous. In fact, it is illegal because it is dangerous.

Chop blocking is when one player blocks an opposing player above the waist, while another player blocks the player below the waist. It is dangerous because the opposing player will brace himself one way or the other, and the blocks are pushing the player in two directions and can injure the opposing player’s knee(s).

Chop blocking and cut blocking are different blocks, but sometimes you will hear the two terms confused with each other. Chop blocking has nothing to do with zone blocking.

Ok, then what is a cut block?

A cut block is any cut below the waist. Some people think that cut blocks are inherently dangerous or dirty. They are not. There are plenty of teams (even at the high school level, such as the high school that I was defensive coordiantor for most of my coaching days) that use cut blocks. Blocking below the knees is both dangerous and illegal. It is not a part of zone blocking, and not a part of fair play in football.

Blocking into a player’s thigh is a critical component of zone blocking, and every zone blocking team does it multiple times per game. Interestingly enough, cut blocking is done by every team in every game, whether they zone block or not.

Remember that in a zb the OL is moving together in the direction of the run play. What if the defensive line is moving in the same direction? That’s right; you can’t square up and block a guy slanting the same direction you are moving in. So the only way to block the opposing player is to lower your head (you should already be running with a low center of gravity) and put your helmet in front of the player’s thigh. You can tackle from the side or the front so long as your helmet is in front of the opposing player when the contact happens. You then drive your shoulder pad into the opposing player’s thigh as hard as you can. This should bring down the opponent.

What’s the issue of “dirty play” by Denver?

It’s a shame I have to waste time discussing this. The NFL has ruled that the cut blocks (as used by Denver) are safe, effective, and fair. But if you don’t like Denver and think you know better than the NFL (who has to consider liability issues), than you might ignore this point. The fact is, the biggest complainers in the past are now using the same system as Denver, while trying to claim they use it “differently” than Denver. There is no “difference” in the required cut block against a 1 gap DL slanting in the direction of a run play. All zb teams will execute a block to the thigh in this situation. For Denver to be “different” they would have to go for the knees or below the knees. If they did this they would be penalized. The fact is, Every team cut blocks the same way. There is no “different” cut block.

Anyone who has taken either PPCT or defensive tactics in law enforcement is aware of the common peronial nerve. It is a target for batons or knee strikes and is considered a safe place to strike without causing an injury. The NFL also recognizes the upper thigh as a safe and legal (meaning “fair in the NFL”) place to aim a block.

For Denver to play dirty or outside of the rules they would have to aim the block at a player’s knees or below the knees. This would not only be dangerous and against the rules, but a terrible way to block. Anyone who has actualy played the game (and I’m not talking about Madden ‘07, which I haven’t messed with) knows that the center of gravity you would have to lower yourself to would put you on your own knees. You would also likely miss your block because you have further down to go to get to your block.

As an issue of “rules” or “NFL legality” the cut block is a settled matter. It has been reviewed and challenged many times by players and teams who do not like to be hurt (and the cut block does hurt). The NFL (which has a reputation above all other sports for ensuring safety in the game, and also wants to avoid liability) has ruled the cut block as used by Denver and other zb teams to be a safe, effective, and fair method.

Players in Denver have made illegal blocks below the knees. So has every other team. To be intentional, a player would be ejected and or suspended. In one of the most memorable cases, Igor Olshansky (SD) was penalized for attacking Tom Nalen (DEN) for what Igor thought was an illegal block. The block was ruled illegal after the game by the NFL (and rightly so). But it was also ruled unintentional. Olshansky’s actions (while understandable) were intentional. As a matter of rules, what Nalen did was more serious. As an issue of ethics, Olshansky acted with intent, while Nalen didn’t. Even though Nalen’s action was unintentional, the result could have been catastrophic. That is why he was fined. But had his action been intentional he would have been ethicaly wrong as well.

Denver has not been determined to be using blocks to the knees or below the knees as a part of their “dirty system”, for which they would be sanctioned at the team level. Denver has not been fined or penalized at the team level, and (since Denver switched to the zb scheme) an OL or TE has not been found to have executed an intentional block to or below the knees on a zone block play. People will continue to point to injuries that have happened, but you could just as easily point to the number of players injured in any type of scheme or method to try and make a point. With liability as an issue, it would not pay for the NFL to allow a method that can lead to serious injury, and the NFL has spoken.

And from a comment:

First, the NFL reviews every injury for three reasons.

liability

rules infractions

the need to reconsider an existing rule for safety concerns

The cut block, as employed by Denver, continues to meet the three criteria for being an allowed method: safe, fair, effective. Your entire comment can be narrowed down to a simple point – The NFL doesn’t buy your arguments, and they are the only authority in the matter. That effectively ends the matter. But should you want to continue:
I don’t know where you get your definitions. Here is “clipping”, straight from the NFL Rulebook:

“Clipping: Throwing the body across the back of an opponent’s leg or hitting him from the back below the waist while moving up from behind unless the opponent is a runner or the action is in close line play.”

In case you don’t know, the “close line of play” is any area between the tackles and extending out lateraly 3 yards in either direction.

There are two blocks that you may be confusing with chop blocking. If you are getting your definitions from the internet and not from the official NFL rule book (as I am), you may have missed these penalties (both are 15 yard violations) -

  • Illegal low block
  • Illegal crackback block by offense

No, the referee does not have discretion in deciding what to call the penalty. He is bound by the definitions provided by the League. He is, however, provided discretion on determining if a penalty happened, and if it is flagerant.

Last, the term “illegal cut block” is not an NFL sanctioned term. And here is where I get to enjoy myself.

Other than the two terms I used above, “chop block”, “clipping”, and “illegal block above the waist” are the only blocks described by the NFL rules book as penalties. I don’t mean to embarass anyone, but the term “cut block” is a method term, and is used by players and coaches. It is not a rule, nor an infraction. What you choose to call “illegal or legal cut blocks” are not defined as such by the NFL. They use the terms I have provided. Cut block is not listed as a penalty.

In other words, I am not concerned that our players (nor even our opponents) are at any more risk than in any other game. (Sorry to be so wordy. Copy and paste can do that.)

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Aug 9, 2008 1:19 PM MDT   0 recs

I wasn't here for the original discussion

but I can only guess that the troll was a faders fan. The only complaints I’ve heard about the “illegal cut block” the Broncos use is from a faders fan I used to work with.

He is also one of the great believers in the “conspiracy theory” that the NFL is against the faders. He also stopped paying up on our 6-pack a game bets when we played, so I don’t even bother anymore. I do have a friend that is a fader fan that even goes as far as back-paying for games when we didn’t have an “official” bet, so there are some decent fader fans out there (but not that many – I think this guy is just an anomaly).

"It's all over Fat Man"

- Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

by DesertBroncoFan on Aug 9, 2008 4:11 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

guess

he forgot about the holy roller then

by broncfanstuckinsd on Aug 9, 2008 4:18 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm sure he would come with something

about how the NFL made that illegal because it was the faders while we still get away with our “illegal cut blocks”.

"It's all over Fat Man"

- Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

by DesertBroncoFan on Aug 9, 2008 4:49 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm about

fed up to here with their crying. I WISH it was true. That why I relish the ineptitude of the fader conquered nation. I almost want to root for them when the pillage and plunder SD. That is such a tough choice for me. All I do know is when the faders come to town King Stahlman Bail Bonds gets extra operators on duty

by broncfanstuckinsd on Aug 9, 2008 4:58 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for the responses

Hey guys, I feel I may have been slightly misunderstood. The issue I was worried about isn’t cut-blocking vs other forms of blocking leading to higher injury rates. My question was more directed to the increased potential for unintentional chops/clips due to Houston’s inexperience running the system at full-speed and us being the first team they get to test it out on.
Gun, your reply was what I was looking for, and you make some good points. I wasn’t aware of the specifics of the rule changes and how they’ve nerfed Gibbs’ scheme, not to mention the Broncos run game, over the last decade.. But they should seem to make players safer. Just by the nature of those changes and the D being able to keep everything in front of them, the risk should be significantly reduced.
Good stuff, thanks again for the info. Can’t wait to see Q-6 light it up tonight. Football’s back!! GO BRONCOS!! :D

Peace!

by BringBackOrange on Aug 9, 2008 2:45 PM MDT   0 recs

Understood.

Still, Houston has run the system for years. They’re not at all inexperienced running it at high speeds.

Either way, my point was that the system isn’t even inherently dangerous. The idea that it is is entirely grounded in myth. The raiders organization started the rumor, which spread to the media. Ironicaly, the raiders now use the same system. There is no data to support that teams playing against Denver (or other zone block teams) suffer either higher rates of injury or more serious injuries.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Aug 10, 2008 1:27 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

prophetic

boss bailey sprained his ankle on a cut-block. i guess he is going to have to get more used to this. don’t know if he has seen a lot of it in the nfc. at least he isn’t out for a long time, hopefully

by davecheffy on Aug 10, 2008 12:41 PM MDT   0 recs

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