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Investigation Continues - Darrent Williams

It's good to know that news continues to come out about the D-Will murder case.  Authorities haven't given up, and new information continues to surface.

The following is from the Associated Press, Denver:

DENVER (AP)—A federal court document says an inmate told authorities that on the night Broncos cornerback Darrent Williams was killed, another inmate had traded trucks with a man considered a person of interest in the death.

It is unclear from the document whether that vehicle was the one that carried Williams’ killers when the fatal shots were fired.

Williams was shot and killed while riding in a rented limousine early Jan. 1, 2007, after leaving a Denver nightclub. Witnesses said men flashed gang signs and confronted Williams and his group after taking offense when Broncos player Brandon Marshall sprayed them with champagne.

Police have said the shots were fired from a white sport-utility vehicle that police said was registered to Brian Hicks, an accused gang leader who was behind bars at the time.

Investigators have accused Willie Clark of working for Hicks in an alleged drug operation and say Clark is a person of interest in Williams’ death.

In a declaration filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court, Hicks’ former girlfriend, Veronica Garcia, wrote about meeting inmate Tamika Knight in Jefferson County jail and said Knight had spoken to a government attorney.

“She told me that she had told the Government that Willie Clark and I traded trucks on the night the Bronco player was killed,” Garcia wrote in a declaration in her own drug case.

Clark has denied involvement in Williams’ death and has denied any drug violations. No charges in the slaying have been filed.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Thanks for the update, HT.

I know for the average guy, the way the law works can be frustrating. But I’m certain the Denver PD will always keep working on this case and will bring it when they are certain they can get a conviction. In the mean time the rest of us can keep an eye on it and never forget what a gift God gave us by letting us enjoy Darrent Williams for the little time he was among us.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Sep 5, 2008 10:08 AM MDT   0 recs

I agree this has been very frustrating to me how slow this has progressed

Especially after seeing how fast the Miami PD made arrests on the Taylor shooting.

"How do the berries taste Ralph?" Bart Simpson
"They taste like burning." Ralph Wigam
Broncoman

by Broncoman on Sep 5, 2008 10:23 AM MDT   0 recs

It's really difficult...

…to compare cases. You’re a very bright guy, you’ve got both eyes open, and you’ve got both feet on the ground so you know some, and especially murder cases, can go on for years. Way too many are never “solved”.

In the Williams case I think the problem is not that Denver PD doesn’t know who did it, it’s more of a question of gathering enough evidence to feel fairly certain of getting a conviction. Again, as you know, they only get one shot at it and they don’t want to mess that up. But I believe it is going to happen one of these days. What is it SHakespeare said, “Murder will out”? Someday, somebody who has enough evidence is going to turn on this puss pocket.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Sep 5, 2008 10:36 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Eventually

My sense is that there has been more and more witness intimidation and related violence especially related to gang activity, and specifically to Hicks’ gang, in Denver. Last year there was a high profile murder of a witness in a gang case related to these same jerks – I don’t recall the details though.

And with this ridiculous national trend to cast “snitchin” as somehow betraying one’s community, the possibility is even more slim. In any case, facing the fear of being gunned down on the street, nobody is gonna come forward…

I suspect/hope that as this particular gang gets broken up and has less to leverage, that fear will dissipate enough for, as you say TJ, “somebody to turn on this puss pocket”

by jonahsilas on Sep 5, 2008 10:53 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

One can hope

Although what angers me, is that the Denver I knew and loved seems to be gone, I would have to believe that if this happened in the 70’s or 80’s or even early 90’s that those people who committed this crime would have been handed out some imediate justice by the community. And they would of already confessed and been in jail because they would have a worse fate trying to walk around Denver.

"How do the berries taste Ralph?" Bart Simpson
"They taste like burning." Ralph Wigam
Broncoman

by Broncoman on Sep 5, 2008 12:53 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

"snitchin' "

I don’t understand when and where we turned over control to groups like this decide what is right and what is wrong. Ultimately, the community is going to have to take that power back, even if it is painful. We must not allow creeps and thugs to control even a small part of this society.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Sep 5, 2008 11:12 AM MDT   1 recs

Amen

I could not have said it any better, my man!!

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 5, 2008 11:18 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Well stated Trinidad!

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 5, 2008 1:04 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

My frustration with the system...

is that (in my line of work) I see guys go to prison, but there are so many bells and whistles (2 days credit for each day served, time credit for classes, etc) that the time served is nowhere near what the public thinks it is.

I talk to guys who are incarcerated all of the time who have multi-year sentences that will only be serving a few months or years. Most of these guys have served for felonies several times before! But we expect our law enforcement officers to risk their lives and personal liablitiy to put these guys away. I know killers and gang members who brag about how soon they’ll be back on the street, and the shameful thing is that they’re right.

I’m a big fan of “truth in sentencing” and “three strikes”. I understand the arguments against these policies, but the criminals I deal with just aren’t detered by a system that leans heavily towards the rights of the accussed to the detriment of societies safety. I buy into the constitution, but I think the “criminal rights” movement has gone way too far. Take the exclusionary rule (a modern court invention). Why not allow the evidence (which is truth) to be used, but sanction the party who illegaly obtained it? Why not require a life sentance to mean just that?

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 5, 2008 1:04 PM MDT to parent up   1 recs

too many

bleeding hearts. The same people that condemn what law enforcement does and needs to do, is the same people who complain where were the police when I was being mugged/robbed or worse. I believe that life should mean that, and the death sentence should be used more. Like here in Cali if you get the death sentence that person has a better chance of dying of natural causes than the by the needle. Westerfield and Peterson will never face their music. (If I was the father of the girl Westerfield killed, I would have been on trial. I would have killed him. I will protect my daughter from anyone who threatens here. That may not be the christian way or the “right” way but its my conviction)

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 5, 2008 1:45 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Too many...

…people in prison. I’ve heard various figures but the lowest is over a million and the highest is over 3 million Americans are incarcerated in some way as you read this. At best that’s one per 300. At worst that’s nearly 1 per 100. How do we pay for that? What do we do with all the others lined up to enter? What did we do to get ourselves into this perdicament?

I’ll tell you what, prison is a growth industry and things aren’t getting any better.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Sep 5, 2008 2:44 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

Too many behind bars, and many doing time for simple offenses. They go to prison and come out hardened, not allowed to vote and incapable of getting a (good) job as ex-felons – and not surprisingly have high recidivism rates. The question to me is why (besides the growth industry which is private prisons) we allow this to persist. Do we really want a significant amount of our youth learning how to be criminals because they got busted with some drugs at a club? I believe punishment, especially as a deterrent must be mitigated by actual harm done to society. That same kid gets in a car high on cocaine and damages property or life – throw the book at him. Without this, the system is seen by the offenders unjust and arbitrary and the deterrence minimal.

I can and will get behind harsh (and harsher) sentencing… if and when I feel that our laws are just and fair and appropriate and not racially biased. Right now the percentage of the young black male population in prison (compared to other races) is absurdly high. Right now the number prisoners doing time for non-violent drug offenses (many for simple possession) is significant. We are not solving the problem by making these people less likely to succeed, which is what a prison sentence does in this country.

Now I don’t think absurd offenders’ rights programs are the solution. The real problem here is structural inequities in our society, and well intentioned laws falling well short of their initial purposes. To expect incarceration to solve those, to me, is ridiculous. A coordinate policy effort and alternative treatment program is a good start. Where from there, I am not sure.

That’s the take from one bleeding heart… It is something I feel strongly about, especially since a childhood friend recently got his murder one reduced to aggravated manslaughter – basically because he came from a wealthy, white, connected family of lawyers.

by jonahsilas on Sep 5, 2008 3:28 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Most of the murders I deal with...

…get plead down to next to nothing. As to the race issue, there’s another take. While most offenders are black, most of their victims are too. Thus, one could just easily argue (just as incorrectly) that the system goes after people who victimize minorities more than after people who victimize whites. Unfortunately, most violent crime is black on black (though any violent crime is unfortunate).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 5, 2008 3:35 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Which is again, to me,

a structural problem in society – specifically black society. So too is much drug crime – black dealers selling to black users.

It is really upsetting to me to hear that murders are pleading down to nothing. Those are the people I believe must be in prison, as they are a threat to other people, no matter whether in their own communities or outside of them.

I don’t think any of this excuses crime, I just think the time has clearly come when we must look to address the root causes of these issues, and not just deal with the symptomatic violence/drug use/disorder that results.

I kinda went overboard, I know, HT. I just love hearing your take form teh law enforcement side…. I have much respect for your career choice. I come from a family of NYPD vets.

by jonahsilas on Sep 5, 2008 3:54 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the truth is in the middle.

We need preventative programs. We need to empower teachers to take back their classrooms, we need to allow law abiding citizens to protect themselves, and we need to slash wasteful government programs that reward bad decisions and behaviors so that funds can be used for communities to help those who truly need help.

But we also need to help the other end of the spectrum. For people who victimize others, and those that are repeat offenders, we need more prisons and sentences that reflect societies contempt for predatory behavior. The system should balance conservative and liberal demands; for example, defendents should get every benefit of the doubt in legal proceedings, but once found guilty, should be removed from society lon enough that repeated behavior can’t happen.

That’s just me. And I appreciate your vote. : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 5, 2008 4:57 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

The answer to overcrowding.

First, we should build new prisons rather than release dangerous convicts. Society should value the protection of innocents over “relieving” overcrowding, and the humane way to do this (and for the safety of correctional oficers) os to build more prisons. The building of prisons is a direct function of government (protecting the public), and the money can come from the wasteful “entitlement” spending we have now.

Second, the very idea that prison terms will be more accurate (and thus longer) should disuade some criminals. Even if this weren’t the case, most of the crimes being committed now are by repeat offenders. If they stayed locked up, crime would plummet.

I’m only speaking from personal observations, so maybe I’m seeing the trees instead of the forest. If I were back in grad school I’d have to do research to back up my statements. But they some common sensical to me at this point.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 5, 2008 3:32 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

So my take is

release the non-dangerous convicts – to programs that give them the support they need to succeed and not end up as those dangerous violent offenders.

I think we agree on “accuracy” but perhaps disagree on what is accurate for what offenses…

I do think some reoffense (again my own instinct – no research to speak of) is related to disenfranchising ex-felons. Can’t vote, can’t get a decent job, have only connections to the crime world… Why not turn the high cost of incarceration to the lower cost of providing more than mere monitoring to the probate?

It is so cool to me that a sane, calm discussion of these things happens at MHR, in between snippets of football frenzy. Thanks for indulging!

by jonahsilas on Sep 5, 2008 3:59 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I might differ a little.

A lot of non-dangerous crimes involve victims. I used to think that drug abuse was a victim crime, but when I left school and started as a counselor, I saw what drugs did to families of the abuser and to neighbors (and neighborhoods). It was worse when I started teaching, and saw how easily drugs “jump the fence” from so called “social users” to children whose lives plummet.

Now in law enforcement, I’m seeing that it is even uglier than I thought. In my mind, “felons” don’t become dis-enfrachised because society ignores them. Bear in mind that it is VERY difficult to be:

1) caught,
2) determined to be worth prosecuting (enough evidence),
3) brought to trial instead of plead down,
4) found guilty,
5) lose all of the inevitable appeals,
6) serve an entire sentence.

Most of the worst subjects don’t get past step one or two. The worst criminals I know are outside of prison (and all of them that I know are prior offenders). I know a triple murderer that left jail two weeks ago because the witnesses were intimidated into changing their stories (he’s a gang member with ties in three states). He gets arrested all of the time, but the system can’t address him. The key? The witnesses told us that he already knew he wouldn’t serve much time, and would be out to get them anyway. That’s the message our system sends.

Believe me, these guys aren’t knocking down doors for the right to vote. And while I hear the excuse that they can’t get jobs, I also hear (from probation officers) that this is a false argument. Almost ever employer that is allowed to enquire about criminal history doesn’t check for it. In fact, most truck driving companies (paying around 40.000 a year and up) advertise that they accept applicants with prior criminal records. The truth is, most of the people that choose to be criminals, also choose not to conform in other areas of their lives (holding a full time job for a perios of time).

And I agree with you on one thing. It’s cool that we can have an intelligent discussion, even where we disagree on some things, on a football site. I haven’t been able to find intelligent discourse on any political sites. Everyone just wants to bash each other instead of finding common ground where they can.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 5, 2008 5:12 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

voting

good points all HT, with regards to enfranchisement I doubt even 10% of ex-cons would vote even if they had the right to do so, staying off the electoral roll makes you less easy to trace and harder to catch.

With regards employers, those in certain industries will always be less stringent in checking history then others due to the transient nature of the jobs they have and the need to fill low paying roles. You can’t really blame the employers in the current climate. And anyway with the best will in the world, serious criminals aren’t going to be signing in at any job centres anytime soon.

Can I echo that it is good to have informed off-topic chats in this environment. After reading a story on the Broncos, I checked out a link on either the Denver Post or RMN website entitled The Europenization of the Democratic party, or some such nonsense and my jaw dropped! The article was appalling but the comments were breathtaking. Almost everyone had an entranched view that was never going to change and the whole thread came down to point scoring and name calling. Scary stuff which makes me all the more grateful for MHR!

and the sing along songs will be our scriptures - we gotta stay positive!

by Orange & Blue Badger on Sep 5, 2008 5:28 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for the perspective

As for drug abusers having victims of their own – I agree. I am well aware of what drug abusers can do emotionally and physically to their families, communities and neighborhoods. But most of the danger there, to me, are actually actions that are illegal in other ways that stem from people whose drug use gets out of hand. Theft, emotional/physical abuse, and the like are in fact crimes of there own. I am fine with punishing those – even doubling sentencing if involving drugs. But when you arrest someone for smoking drugs in a hotel room, in my mind you are really punishing them for the increased potential for them to do bad things, and that makes me a little squirmy… The emotional pain of a mother watching their child waste a life, to me, is not necessarily something I want my government dealing with short of having strong social programs to get them both support and/or treatment. Of course finding that in our current governmental budget is nigh impossible.

A lot of what I am hearing from you is that the path from investigation to incarceration is broken. The level of witness intimidation is disturbing indeed. And I can see how that would lead to a lot of guys back on the streets, or at best plea-ing down to something nominal. That is frustrating for everyone, especially someone as intimately involved in this process as you are.

The fix for this is beyond my comprehension. It is a huge mishmash of overly permissive laws, unlicensed gun ownership, culturally glorified gang violence, a flailing education system, etc. Scary stuff.

I will also agree that felons are not knocking down the door to vote. Of course, neither is any other generally undereducated, underinformed segment of the population. And certainly if back living a criminal lifestyle the risks of registering far outweigh the benefits of not. Again, for me, I think the fear for me is that in the same way the conviction process makes a mockery of justice to the offenders, such that they don’t care about reoffending, keeping them off voting roles does the same vis-a-vis “straight” society. How can you expect someone to embrace a way of life which touts inclusive democracy, and a say in your future and country, when you take away the latter right from them?

All in all, I have learned something in the last day via this discussion, so thanks HT (and everyone else who got in on this!) This lefty may have nudged a bit to the right on this issue, and he certainly appreciates that the real answers lie at neither extreme but somewhere in the muddy middle.

I love that our mutual respect as football fans and thinkers allows this to happen. Unlike politically oriented sites, we share something in common, and I think it makes us all more willing to hear alternative points of view. Unless, of course, those alternative points of view are rooting for the team from oakland. ;-)

Thanks MHR.

by jonahsilas on Sep 6, 2008 10:07 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

On disenfranchisement
How can you expect someone to embrace a way of life which touts inclusive democracy, and a say in your future and country, when you take away the latter right from them?

We didn’t take away their privledge to vote. They chose to give up certain societal priveldges when they undermined society and their fellow citizens.

I don’t think society has an obligation to be inclusive towards those that undermine it. If someone is choosing to undermine society, I think it would be counter productive for those same people to help shape policy. To me, it seems like the movement to allow votes amongst felons isn’t coming from the felons themselves, but from those who would benefit from their votes. (There was an issue in PA where a governor was pushing to have voter registration in the corrections system, while also working to make more difficult the proceedures allowing the votes of PA military servicemen overseas to count).

Keep in mind that we aren’’t talking about misdemeanor crimes. Felonies represent those crimes that are most impactful on victims. (The so called “minor” crime of a guy with a bag of dope doesn’t fall into this category. We’re talking about dealers, killers, rapists, and violent attackers). They are also almost entirely conducted by repeat offenders.

Of course, I may be a bit of a Hamiltonian too. I think the privledge to vote should extend to those who who participate in democracy. I don’t think we should push for people to vote who know nothing about what they are voting for (registration drives always seemed aimed at demographics that vote a certain way too). I also wonder why we allow those who do not pay taxes to vote to take taxes from those who do pay taxes. At the founding of our country, only property owners where allowed to vote. I wouldn’t be allowed to vote under that system, but it was the brainchild of our founding fathers. At the very least, people should be rewarded for contributing to society and being informed. At the very, VERY least (in my opinion), we shouldn’t award voting privledges to those who purposely seek to undermine the rights and safety of the society they would pretend to shape with a vote.

Last, it isn’t my experience that criminals hide from the type of paper trail that comes with voter registration. Most criminals on television “lay low”, but on the real streets it seems to me that most criminals do very little to hide their identities or location. Given a voting system that doesn’t require picture IDs in many states, and failures to verify correct addresses in most, we not only protect the rare criminal that really wants to vote, but also disenfranchise those who chose to vote legitimately by allowing voter fraud. (The Supreme Court, just this year, upheld a photo ID law in Indiana. This is expected to take off nationwide. The disenfranchisement argument lost when it was demonstrated that it is easier to get a free picture identification card than it is to vote anyway).

And yes, Broncos fans right and left are united in a common cause. We all love the Broncos and we hate the raiders. Perhaps football blogging should be a required activity for our government representatives. You and I could get a lot more done agreeing on where we want to go, even if we disagree on how to get there. But it seems most politicians treat politics as a zero sum, all or nothing game.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 6, 2008 10:55 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree in principle

Okay, I don’t know the US situation but I agree with Jonas that locking up non-dangerous (I read that as violent) convicts can be counterproductive. I accept that it does depend on individual circumstances and that just because it isn’t violent does not mean there is no victim.

I may be a liberal bleeding heart to some extent but a community order coupled with education and training can be a positive move for the courts rather than locking someone up and possibly exposing them to more hardline views in prison.

and the sing along songs will be our scriptures - we gotta stay positive!

by Orange & Blue Badger on Sep 5, 2008 5:17 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Non-concurrence with early releases

There are already too many raider fans on the street, no need to accelerate the process.

by Arctic Bronco on Sep 5, 2008 9:01 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

As well as

53 Bengals players… lol.

by jonahsilas on Sep 5, 2008 11:40 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

dont forget

Jacksonville is creeping up on the Bengals as the most arrested.

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 6, 2008 11:28 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I should show you

my prison reform bill that I wrote up. It is written for Alaska State DOC, but the principles used would apply to any DOC system. It does away with the worst elements of “3 strike” and puts a premium on the lives and welfare of the workers within the DOC itself. Since my wife started working in the DOC the most frustrating thing I have seen is the risk that the officers are put in every day for absolutely no good reason.

Mountains, forest, sea: these render man fierce, but yet do not destroy the man.

by styg50 on Sep 5, 2008 5:32 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I would really like to see it styg.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 5, 2008 8:32 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd like to see it too.

The leadership of the Indiana Sheriffs’ Association seems to be in my area, and perhaps I could get some of it to the lobbying arm.

It’s bizzare how many advantages our legislature grants inmates to the detriment of corrections officers’ safety. Folks don’t realize the danger that COs put themselves in every day. While I’m not inhumane, and I grant that inmates should have rights that keep them healthy, safe, and sane, I also think that our “rights” oriented society has gone too far.

People should be grateful for citizens like Styg’s wife. Consider that on a typical work day she gets locked into a facility with all sorts of criminals, does so unarmed, and faces injury, lawsuits, or much, much worse. Why does she do it? In part, to care for and protect the very inmates that would harm her or her community. Special person indeed.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 6, 2008 5:46 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

My best friend

is a CO at the Southwest dention facility in Temecula, CA. It was where that moron Andy Dick was locked up after getting drunk and abusing that 17 y/o girl at the Buffalo wild wings. He tells me stories about them, how most of these clowns know how to use the system to their benefit and to get released so they can continue on there bea and path. I repsect him, all guards and correctional deputies as well as law enforcement. I feel that their hands are tied and that there should more should be done. Plus here in CA the illegal immigration policy (or lack of enforcement) allows for gangs like MS-13 to flourish. I can go on, but I have strong feelings and dont wanna upset some of me fellow Bronco fans

by broncfanstuckinsd on Sep 6, 2008 11:33 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Recommended

Very sadly. Thanks, HT.

Atwater for the Hall!

by broncobear on Sep 5, 2008 5:44 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for the post HT!

I would never get this kind of information if it were not for you guys and the MHR.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 5, 2008 1:05 PM MDT   0 recs

Amen

Atwater for the Hall!

by broncobear on Sep 5, 2008 5:48 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Thoughts from a defense lawyer

I’ve been a lawyer for 28 years, doing largely criminal defense, and I think a lot about these issues:
1. There are two types of criminal laws: A) the kind that has been around since the dawn of thinking mankind – laws against murder, assault, robbery, burglary, arson, etc. B) What I call controlling societal laws – laws against certain sex acts (between consenting adults); drug laws; and the like. With A) type crimes, even the perp will admit he did wrong. Not so with B) type crimes. Prosecuting people for B crimes causes a lot of problems in our society.
2. In regard to the drug laws: Yes, lots of problems occur in families of drug users, and lots of crimes are committed to get the bucks to buy the drugs. Gangs form to sell the stuff,and turf wars erupt in gun fire, and police and citizens get caught up in the cross fire.
The solution? IMO, legalize the stuff. Prohibition didn’t work, and neither do our drug laws. If all this stuff were legal (and let me say, Loud and Clear, that I do not condone the use of this stuff), the gangs selling it would disappear, with their turf wars. Users would not have to commit property crimes to get their stuff, since there would be a reasonable price (the government could tax it, and all that money would no longer be leaving the country to places where the stuff originates). It would take a lot of pressure off families, because all the family money would not be going for high priced illegal stuff, plus the user would not be a criminal. This, IMO, is huge. Also, I kind of think that if drug use was legal, drug use might actually go down. From talking to clients, I’ve come to the conclusion that part of the appeal is that it’s illegal, which gives them a bit of an adventure in obtaining the stuff. (People are bored these days, with their desk jobs, routine lives, etc. – they get a thrill from connecting with their dealer). Also, if legalization doesn’t work, we could make it illegal again, and this time maybe stay on top of the criminal infrastucture. One last thought: if someone provides drugs to a child, shoot the MF. Another thought: if law enforcement officers were freed from trying to nab drug dealers and users, they could spend there time looking for the next Bin Laden episode.
3. HT, if “most of the murders you deal with get plead down to next to nothing”, you live in a wierd place. In my experience (which has mostly been keeping up on legal goings on around Colorado – I’ve only represented one person charged with murder) most murderers get a life sentence in return for not facing the death penalty, unless there is a serious proof problem. Then they may get the opportunity to plead down to second degree murder, which carries a 20 year sentence. That may seem like next to nothing to a lot of people, but think about this: If you had to spend the next week in the local jail, starting, let’s say, Monday morning, how would you be feeling about that on this Saturday morning? I’d be seriously depressed at the thought of a week of lousy food, no trips to the frig, no shower in privacy, snoring bunk mates, missing my dog, etc) My point is that when we hear about a Judge handing down a 5 or 10 or 15 year sentence for whatever crime, a lot of people think the Judge was way too lenient (assuming the Judge had the power to make the sentence longer). But five years is a very long time to be in prison. Youhave to think about five years as the next five coming up, not about how fast the last five flew by as you watched the kids grow, etc. I’ve never been in prison, but I remember after I was drafted into the Army feeling like I had been dropped down a bottomless well – two years! away from home, family, friends. And even then, I had the chance to take leave on occasion and go home for a visit.
4. There is a huge difference between sentencing someone that is totally dangerous, and just needs to be locked up, and sentencing someone who commited a serious felony, but is not inherently a bad person. Judges know that an 8 year sentence, e.g., can probably be reduced to maybe 4 actual, plus some seriously restrictive parole, and they take that into consideration when deciding what to do. Also, for a prisoner having the possibility of shortening his sentence with good behavior is a huge safety factor for the prison gueards.

while yet unspoken, you are master of the word. After it is spoken, the word is master of you.

by bradley on Sep 6, 2008 10:57 AM MDT   0 recs

Where we disagree.

The so called “societal laws” have been brought about by the people, through their elected representatives, under the watchful eye of the judicial branch, and in accordance with our constitution. There is no “right” to the activities that society has deemed harmful to society, and so the laws abolishing the behavior are deemed allowable. Those laws, being passed by legislatures, reflect the will of the people. Both the executive and the judicial branches serve as checks against populist, but anti-constitutional laws against certain behavior.

I’m sure that if I were a defense atty, my view would be different. But my view has been shaped as a political science student (masters), and then as a counselor, teacher, and now law enforcement officer.

I can’t speak for Colorado, but it is amazing that so many murderers get life there. Is that “life”, as in “truth in sentencing”, or life, as in a decade or two? EIther way, most murderers don’t get caught, of those who are caught, many can’t be prosecuted. Of those who can, many more are plead to less serious crimes. Of those, few serve the full sentence as the lay person would read it. Further down the road, those remaining in the system have access to appeals that don’t go to the issue of guilt, but to issues of technacalities. These technicalities may be revered in the legal profession for some abstract reasons, but to those who are victimized and those who risk their lives to enforce the law, they are just technicaliities.

Legalization has been an abject failure in several Scandanavian countries, where addiction rates, related health care costs, and related crimes have led to reversals in such experimentation. From a former teaching and counseling perspective, I don’t think legalizing something (giving society’s impramanter) that is harmful and has no positive value is the message we want to send to our kids.

You’ll forgive me if my view of defense attorneys is a little jaded. I respect the role they serve, but my encounters with them demonstrate to me that they are more concerned with doing anything to ruin my reputation, the reputation of victims, and to twist into knots the truth, in favor of “zealous” representation of the client. It seems to me that the ideal system would seek truth through an adversarial system. But today’s courtroom (like today’s politics) is more concerned with scoring points and winning, than with doing what is right and true. As a law enforcement officer, I don’t have that benefit or choice. I have to do what is right, and am not allowed to “shape” cases. But this behavior is encouraged in court settings.

Being the Broncos fan that you are, I’m sure you’re one of the good guys in the court system. : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Sep 6, 2008 11:53 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Very nicely stated HT. Thank you.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 6, 2008 12:07 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Your signature says a great deal.

I have very purposely not spoken on this topic though I follow the thread closely. For over ten years after my son was murdered the very words “defense attorney” would create an emotional reaction for me. It is obvious from your comment that you are one of the good guys who does indeed see the difference between someone who is totally dangerous to society and someone who has made a poor decision (sometimes a string of them) and who should be removed from mainstream society until they obtain the skills to make better decisions.

Unfortunately I had to see my son’s murderer walk scott free. There were 26 homicides in Anchorage that year and two prosecutors. The DA had to make a decision on which cases to prosecute and since it would be very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the claims of self-defense by the murderer the case never even came to trial. This was in spite of three witnesses who stated it was NOT self defense.

As HT points our below, the tactics of some defense lawyers revictimize the already emotionally crushed loved ones of homocide victims. I do not have answers, but I do believe in karma. This applies to perpitrators as well as defense lawyers.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 6, 2008 12:26 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Oops, this was meant to be a reply to bradley above.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 6, 2008 12:27 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Where we disagree/My signature

First: to First Fan: I’m very sorry about your son. Please accept my sincere sympathy. The grief of a parent losing a child is something I cannot imagine.
Second: I too believe in Karma, and have lived my life according to the law of Karma. It not only applies to perpetrators and defense attorneys, but to all of us.
Third: The criminal legal system sucks, IMO. It’s based on a centuries old adversarial system (that actually devolved from physical combat to settle differences, where each side could hire a champion to fight for them). Lawyers in the Anglo/American judicial system are the descendants of these champions. I think we should look to the continental European system, which is much less adversarial.
Fourth: Because of the adversarial system, defense attorneys (especially appointed ones) often have no choice but to try to impeach the credibility of witnesses, etc., as the defense attorney. This is their ethical duty under our adversarial system, which sucks, IMO.
Fifth: Many prosecutors are much worse than defense attorneys. Here in Larimer County, we have been dealing with the Tim Masters case. In short, Masters was convicted of a murder he did not commit. His conviction came about because the investigating police officer and the prosecutors withheld critical information from the defense attorneys. This was totally unethical on their part. Masters’ conviction was recently overturned, and he is now a free man, after spending nine years in the penitentiary. Thankfully, he seems to be adjusting quite well, with the support of his family.
Sixth: A life sentence in Colorado means life without parole. In fact, it means 40 years, and then, and only then, does a person have a chance at parole. Since life in prison is very hard, especially in a maximum security unit, even a young person sentenced to life (forty years Minimum) has almost no chance of ever walking the streets again.
Seventh: As to legalization: HT, I’m unaware of any Scandinavian country reversing it’s legalization, but I’ll take your word for it. I sure didn’t mean to imply that legalization would be a “magic pill” (pun intended ;-) that would make everything wonderful again, like in the fifties with Ozzie and Harriet and Leave It To Beaver. I’m certainly no expert, but I don’t think the problems we’d have with legalization would be as bad as the problems we have now. Again, prohibition does not work.
Eight. As far as these “societal” laws go: HT, you have more faith in the legislative process than I do. Many laws are passed by a legislature or Congress steamrolled by a public whose opinion is mis informed, or by the politics the dollar. One example: back when Prohibition was being repealed, the country passed laws to get after people using drugs other than alcohol. Marijuana was tossed into the mix as an afterthought, giving the beaurocracy more to do, and therefore more money in the budget, etc. As William Buckley stated, “Marijuana is an innocuous little drug.” It certainly shouldn’t be classified with methamphetamine (truly horrible) and the others. Please don’t tell me that, just because a legislature or Congress has passed a law that the law is inherently reasonable.
Nine: I love very much the fact that I live in a country where reasonable minds can peacefully disagree. I am also grateful that I had a very wonderful childhood, with wonderful parents and siblings and neighbors. Not all of the folks in this country had a decent childhood. As the psychologist John Bradshaw said, “It’s difficult to remember that every victimizer was once a victim”.
Ten. We need to address these issues rationally, as a country, instead of just locking people up (which just makes them worse) unless they are truly bad, evil people.

while yet unspoken, you are master of the word. After it is spoken, the word is master of you.

by bradley on Sep 6, 2008 1:17 PM MDT   0 recs

Back to topic

I just hope the police and proecutors gather enough of the right evidence to secure a conviction for those who committed this murder. And for those who have hindered the police by thier silence, may you receive all of the karmic justice that you deserve.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 6, 2008 2:43 PM MDT   0 recs

Karmic Justice

The only absolute, positive thing all of us humans will receive. Well, not counting my old bluetick coon hounds’ warm breath on my hand.

while yet unspoken, you are master of the word. After it is spoken, the word is master of you.

by bradley on Sep 6, 2008 3:45 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

And so it is.

Peace be with you.

On the other hand, moldy faders stink….styg50 Sept.1, 2008

by firstfan on Sep 6, 2008 5:57 PM MDT   0 recs

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