Celebrate the Return of the 3-4, Broncos Country

Seems to me I remember a Nose Tackle named Greg Kragen who did pretty darn good in the 80’s. Rubin Carter was no monster brute, nor was Don Latimer.
It would be nice to have a Ngata or Wilfork, but give me a Kragen anyday if for no other reason than to have a high motor guy at the Nose.
Also, Ratliff in Dallas is no brute either.

Best nickname yet.

You don’t mention him.

in the 3-4 system, guys like Kragen (who was a god) are rare. The prototypical guy is a monster plugger who occupies blockers and allows the ILBs to rome free. I believe Suh is the best guy for that job. Plus, he’s not 375 like Terrence Cody or some other less mobile Gil Brown (remember Schlareth tearing that guy in half?) type guys. 305 is pretty managable and Suh seems to be a high motor, high-intensity football player who has the size to eat up blockers and command a double team. That’s what we need especially in order to stop the run.

I also say we put Larsen at ILB and DJ Williams at ILB with Woodyard on the outside of DJ.

b/c I’m not sure he would fit well. He could play inside (as Zappa suggested) or outside. However, your OLBs need to be demon passrushing psychos and I’m not sure if DJ is that guy. He’s more of a 4-3 guy on the outside – so I guess he’d play on the inside. If we can use him, great. If not, put him on the block and get another 2nd round pick or something for him. It is also possible that Elvis won’t work out at OLB, if that is the case and DJ does – put him in there. I think Suggs would solidify one side, then I think we should fill the other with the best player out of Elvis, DJ and Woodyard – which, upon further reflection will probalby be Mr. Atomic himself (Woodyard).

Underlying my omission of DJ was the “glove play” as the GJ Contingent has dubbed it. I know DJ was hurt in the SD game, but the glove play in particular kind of turned me off to the idea of him in a Bronco uniform. It happened when Sproles was roming free and DJ was half-running while adjusting his glove – half-heartedly pursuing the ball-carrier. He never made it to Sproles and, the truth is, my faith in him was shaken.

That said, DJ has elite talent and could probably play inside opposite Spencer or serve as a potent piece of tradebait.

The 3-4 was not born in Denver, not even close. In the late 40s & early 50s most teams at both the college and pro level played a 5-2 defense. In response to the sweeps and pitchouts of the T and I formation teams needed to generate more pursuit than the 5-2 seems to provide. Two adjustment sevolved. In the pros the Bears and the Giants both backed their nose guard off the line created a 4-3 alignment. The success of these two prompted other teams to copy them. At the college level Bud Wilkenson and Chuck Fairbanks at Oklahoma had their ends stand up creating essentially a 3-4 alignment. Oklahoma ran off 47 consecutive wins and soon everyone was copying the Oklahoma 5-2. When Fairbanks became HC at NE in 1972 he systemitized the 3-4 defense, but many AFL teams had already been running variations of the Oklahoma 5-2 before then. The KC Triple-stack defense, which KC used to completely stiffle the Viking running game in the Super Bowl was a variation of the 3-4. Joe Collier was the DC at Denver when Fairbanks intorduced the 3-4 in NE. Collier already had more good linebackers than he could put on the field, so he decided copy NE’s 3-4. When Red Miller came over from NE he solidified the 3-4. The are at least two major 3-4 systems (some might say 3) and numerous variations on each. Furthermore, I’m fairly sure that we will be running a hybrid system at least for a while, maybe longer.

1. If only it were so easy as just drafting a dominant NT. The sad truth is that most dominant college players are not dominant in the pros and most dominant pro players were not dominant in college. The dominant college player is often a great athlete, with superior size, speed or strength. Often they have been able to dominate other players at their level with their physical abilities instead of superior technique. Relative to college, everyone in the pros is a superior athlete. Suddenly that DT/NT who was so dominant in college is getting routinely manhandled by professional O-lineman due to their inferior technique. That’s why many of the best scouts discount “measureables.”

2. I love Terrel Suggs, but trying to build a defense through high-profile free agency doesn’t work. How many FAs on the Steelers, the Ravens, the Titans? The Eagles signed Samuel, but only after they had all the other peices in place. FAs work when you have an otherwise solid team and you are just adding one or two missing pieces. They don’t work for rebuilding. That’s not to say there’s no role for FAs. Judiciously adding older low-profile FAs, such as Lynch for Denver, Harrison for NE, can help the rebuilding process along. I think there are a number of FAs who could help us, especially along the line. But, not the high-priced, salary cap destroyers.

3. We don’t need to turn Elvis into anything but Elvis. Just let him do what he does best, be a pass rushing specialist. The key to a great defenses is not emulating other defenses; it’s creating a system that puts the players you already have in position to make great plays.

4. I like Chung, but we can’t guarantee he will be available and he’s not worth reaching for. There seem to be many good safeties in this draft. Drafting one or more safeties should be a priority, but not until we fix the D-line. It all starts on the line!

5. I agree with getting Woodyard on the field. He actually reminds me of a young Tom Jackson, high energy with a nose for the ball. With good coaching he could be an impact player.

6. I like Larsen but I’m not convinced he’s a true starter. He certainly looked better than Webster, but I think my grandmother would have looked better than Webster. Certainly we should keep Larsen as a LB and let him develop. We may have a great late round find or we may just have a really capable backup. Depth matters, especially if the league goes to a longer season.

7. What’s with all this trade talk? Does anyone here understand how trades really work? When you trade a player with several years left on his contract you take a big cap hit. All the defered signing bonus is accelerated into the year of the trade. That’s what dead cap space is. For the most part there are only two types of trades: swapping of underperforming players and draft picks (a gamble) for players. Good teams only trade from depth. We don’t have any depth at CB. Bly is a known entity and in the right system, is a pick machine. We may not re-sign Bly when his contract is up, but at this point Williams is nobody, couldn’t even make the squad. Let’s wait till he proves himself before annointing him the savior.

8. Webster is a UFA. No need to cut him; just don’t re-sign him.

9. Thomas will do just fine. He is in the process of learning that physical ablity alone may not get the job done. But he does seem to be improving and actually may play better as a 5-technique player (DE) that as a 2 or 3-technique guy.

10. We need defensive lineman period, whether NT, DT, or DE. However, I think we may not be as bad as we seem to be. One way of overcoming a lack of talent on the D-line to use use depth to overcome strength. A team can keep cycling in fresh lineman who are tasked with hammering and wrestling with the O-line, wearing them down. It’s backwards of the usual concept, we typically think of an offense wearing down the D-line through running, but it can be effective. When Collier introduced the 3-4 in enver he also began platooning his D-line. You would be surprised by how good a fresh lineman can look when the center and guards start to tire. We can add depth faster and more affordably than we can try to fix the line by gambling on one or two individuals. The league laughed at the Browncos deeal, but it actually woked quite well becuase it did just this. Instantly we had depth across the line.

I know the 3-4 wasn’t established in Denver, but it was born into denver through necessity (Alzado’s injury) and Collier’s ingenuity. But I hear you when you say that finding a dominant nose will be tough – they’re not exactly a dime a dozen. However, I trust Goodman and Xanders to find him. I feel that Suh is the guy given his size and athleticism, we’ll see.

I’m really not a big fan of expensive free-angent signings. They just don’t work out that well often.

Karlos Dansby looks much more worthwhile. His profile as a 3-4 backer is good in terms of his physicial make-up. And if you look his stats, he’s done very well in rushing the passer and forcing fumbles. The dud won’t be cheap, but I’m generally with Slow & White on this — you don’t spend a lot on FA’s. Anybody want to talk about Darryl Gardner?

over a several game stretch. He’s just not really an impact player. He’s an o.k. OLB and he’s pretty solid in coverage but he’s not a big hitter and I’m not sold on his quickness or pass-rushing instincts. Suggs, on the other hand, is an out of control beast with size, speed and an attitude. That guy rushes the passer like he needs it to put food on his family’s plate.

I agree that we may go with a Dansby-type if the price is right, but who says that he won’t command the same or substantially the same as Suggs. If the amounts are even comparable, I’ll take suggs, hands down.

He has the size and speed to take on guys one on one and can demand a double team, I don’t like him at NT, I think that would be a waste.

asked in another thread… this seems like a better place.

I’m 6’0 and 240 lbs and have decided to go out for NT this year. Our problems are solved!!! (you can still smoke on the field right?)

Back at the very beginning of his career, Jamie Winborn ran afoul of a certain DC in San Francisco – Mike Nolan – and promptly lost his job. It will be interesting to see how that will play out as the Broncos LBs vie for time in the likely 3-4 hybrid defense that Nolan is currently suspected of wanting to employ.

I remember that’s where he came from. Do you know the story there? Although not an All Pro, I still like Winborn and would like to see him stick.

This should work:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/7/2/563985/the-character-of-jamie-win

I think that are two issues here. The first is that Winborn is probably playing out of position. He’s yet another natural Will, playing at playing Sam. It worries me. It’s not his best position, and we saw that both at Tampa and here. He’s a lot better than his press has shown, but he needs to be at Will to maximize his potential, and that won’t happen here. He also seems to need to be given more support by the coaches – see below. He has been looking for a team to really want him.

At Sam, his coverage skills are suspect and I saw him get burned on the TE several times. This could also have been scheme – we didn’t blitz much, didn’t continue when we tried it and it worked, so Winborn’s ability to rush the passer never got off the ground and all our coverage guys got burned. Frankly, he’s one of those guys who seems a little karmically challenged – things just don’t go his way. Still, he played pretty well at Sam, just not well enough for me to say the job is his to lose.

You’re right, styg – he didn’t look that sharp in camp. He was coming to a new system (whatever the blazes it was) and was again stuck at Sam behind Boss and fighting Green for a job. He finally blossomed when it was clear that he was the Sam. If someone picked him up and used him at will, said, “Here, Winborn – Will is yours. We want you there, and we think you’ll be special” I could see him having a hell of a late career.

But Nolan really didn’t get along with him. He benched him quickly, on little reason and it was so apparent a conflict that the fanbase complained and eventually Winborn bought out his own contract to leave and go to Tampa. I don’t recall ever seeing that before. On top of all of that, we’ve got a logjam at Will. Make that very karmically challenged. Pardon the stream of thought post, but I don’t see Winborn being anything other than a backup whether we go 3-4 or 4-3.

Jamie went to Jacksonville first after SF, just didn’t play much and wanted to move on to Tampa. He helpd Jacksonville buy out his contract to get out of SF. Here’s what happened:

After his 16 tackles in the 49ers’ 2002 opener against the New York Giants he played just two more games before spraining his left knee. After multiple setbacks his leg required surgery, but Winborn even took this as a positive and said his injuries allowed him,

“…to take a different perspective on the game. I’m better on film study now, in the weight room, in a lot of the little things you have to do.”

Winborn never quite meshed with the staff of the 49ers, although the players loved him and his high motor. He did play in 14 games in 2004, and he notched 63 tackles, 55 unassisted, with 4.5 sacks.

Coach Mike Nolan took over the 49ers and tried to put his stamp on the team, in part by switching to a 3-4 defense. Winborn was considered slow to catch on to the new system, although he had 13 tackles in the first two games. But in a shocking move, Coach Nolan suddenly benched him and told him to clean out his locker. Nolan traded him to Jacksonville for a 7th round draft pick. Some felt that he was signaling the team that that no player was safe. Winborn, feeling that he was a starting linebacker in the NFL, fearlessly picked up a portion of his then-$550,000 salary to seal the deal.

Jacksonville cut him loose quickly after a late fall of more injuries, but Tampa picked him up in the following spring. He spent one season with the Bucs, notching an anemic 12 tackles in 14 games of sporadic play. The Buccaneers weren’t ready to give him what he felt was a sufficient long term commitment. Winborn had signed a five-year deal with the Buccaneers as a free agent during the 2006 offseason. However, his deal, which included a $200,000 signing bonus, has an option in it that would allow the former Vanderbilt star to buy himself out of the rest of the deal and become an unrestricted free agent on March 2 2007.

Notice that he believes in himself so much that he helped buy his own contract out twice. If someone else really believes in him and he stays healthy for a year, he could indeed be special. But it almost certainly won’t be here.