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Around SBN: Spencer Hall's College Football Week 12 Alphabetical

Joe Collier's Thoughts on Defensive Transition



Since Mike Nolan was named Defensive Coordinator earlier this week, there has been much conjecture about how his track record stacks up against the rest of the NFL and what strategies and personnel Denver will employ in 2009 and the future.  One person whose track record needs not be questioned is Joe Collier.  Coach Collier employed the 3-4 defense with Denver from the late 70's through 1988, when he was fired by then head coach, Dan Reeves.  Joe spent 20 years with Denver after joining the team in 1969 as a position coach. 

Yesterday evening, Joe gave a short but extremely informative interview with Clough and Armstrong on The Fan.  I came away very excited about some players' futures and very skeptical of others'.  Joe sounds like he could still coach.  He sounds like he still has passion for coaching defense and building a team.  I was very impressed by his ability to make something as complicated as a pro-football defensive scheme seem so straightforward. 

Here is the link to the interview: http://www.1043thefan.com/dynamic/podcasts/theSportsGuys/20090114JoeCollier.mp3

The takeaways from the interview are:

  • It's an easy transition and Denver's players shouldn't have too hard of a time with it.  The Broncos will need a Nose Tackle, but their Linebackers are set up well to employ a 3-4.
  • A 3-4 defense isn't a 3-4 defense on any down and distance.  On 1st down, 2nd and short, and 3rd and short, Denver will play 3-4.  2nd and long will be a nickel (5 DB's) and 3rd and long will be a dime (6 DB's).
  • The Defensive Linemen in a 3-4 are "ego surpressed" meaning that they don't get alot of praise in the system and you have to plan accordingly as a coordinator.  Maybe bringing in a big name won't work.
  • Elvis Dumervil has some huge potential in a 3-4.  Collier moved both Karl Mecklenburg and Simon Fletcher to Linebacker after they both played Defensive End in college and were undersized.  Collier thinks Dumervil can be a dangerous pass rusher from the outside especially when you consider that he'd either be blocked by a Running Back or nobody. The only potential downside is if Dumervil can't play a lick of pass defense and gets lost in space in coverage.  We'll know soon enough on Dumervil's transition (training camp).  In fact, Dumervil could even come in as the Defensive End in 2nd and 3rd and long situations and line up wide of the tackle, creating matchup problems for the Offensive Line.  So the big news here is that Dumervil has a real shot at turning into a great hybrid/flex Linebacker/Defensive End in a 3-4.
  • Collier's not sure if Denver has anyone who can play Nose Tackle.  They're tough to find.  When Marcus Thomas' name was brought up by The Fan, Collier wasn't sure if he would fit the bill.  You can't simply put weight on Thomas and expect that he maintain his signature quickness.  This makes me assume that Denver adds a Nose Tackle through the draft and potentially Free Agency.

In the end, I thought it was a great interview, and it was just long enough to keep my ADD under wraps.  I came away from the interview thinking, "Collier could still coach.  I can't believe Shanahan never tapped him for at very least some insight or perspective".  Maybe McDaniels will tap Joe or his son, Joel, who is the secondary coach in New England.  The interview made me realize how talented the Broncos staff has been in the past and also got me excited for the changes to come.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

9 recs  |  Comment 129 comments |

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Yet another Bronco who could/should be in the Hall.

I can’t believe Belichik would hire the son of an old friend, I thought only Shanahan did that kind of stuff.

aka MN Bronco

by pubkeeper on Jan 15, 2009 9:12 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Joel was let go from NE after 2007

So the difference between Belichik and Shanahan is that the former will also fire the son of an old friend. On the other hand, Joel is looking for work …

by Snaggins on Jan 15, 2009 10:10 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I love Collier.

Ownership was smart enough to keep him on through several head coaching changes. I always thought that letting him go was one of Reeves bigger mistakes. Definitely h.o.f. (de-emphasis added), or even better, Ring of Fame material.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 1:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with everything you've said.

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 15, 2009 1:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Well stated my friend.

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 15, 2009 6:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Guys.

That means a lot to me.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 8:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

At Least RIng of Fame!

I agree.

I think he’s such an underrated source of info. Kiz had an article today about getting Gradishar into the coaching game.

I’m curious about why more coaches don’t tap former players or coaches as a sounding board. Maybe they view it as a distraction or just one more personality.

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 9:35 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Former players as coaches:

Tom Nalen as O line coach.

Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. When the fear has gone past, I will turn to see fear’s path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Bene Gesserit saying. (From Dune, by Frank Herbert)

by bradley on Jan 15, 2009 10:14 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Not gonna happen

I very casually know Tom, and from what I know, he isn’t the type to scheme, fire up, or teach O-linemen. I could be wrong, just MO

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 10:34 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

But I could definitely see Rod Smith as WR's coach.

If he wants to, of course. But if we lose Coach Fisch, the first guy I’d call would be Rod.

"WTF" By Zappa. 1/5/09

I can deal with bears....sharks on the other hand.......of course, I am not talking about if I were menstrual(I’m a guy so that isn’t it), but yeah. I can deal with bears if my arm or something was bleedin’, but sharks? I’ll pass on those. The worst feeling in the world is to be out in the surf and feel something very large brush up against your leg as you were alone waiting for your next wave. I don’t think I’ve gone out past waist deep in the ocean since. lol It was probably just a damn dolphin or something, but yeah. Screw sharks and the evolutionary train they rode in on!

by papigrande on Jan 15, 2009 2:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Rod said no

He drops by and talks informally to players, but he has a variety of businesses that require his attention and he isn’t into the hours that coaching requires

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 15, 2009 4:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd post

thanks for sharing Joe’s insight, and for bringing up fond memories of a DC with a clipboard stuffed in his waistband.

by CoastalBronco on Jan 15, 2009 9:48 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I tried to find a picture of..

Collier’s ol’ clipboard in the pants routine but couldn’t find one. WOuld love a little help on it and I can edit the post!

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 9:51 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Those words about the clipboard in the waistband conjured up instant memories.

It might end up being one of those photos that exist only in the memories of those of us who actually saw it. That would be a shame.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 1:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got THE hat,

and a great avatar. The Tick is one of the best all time super heros.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 8:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

LEAP BEFORE YOU LOOK OLD CHUM!

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 16, 2009 3:54 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Wiser words than the Tick even realized.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 16, 2009 12:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to bring up the bright orange hat

I got a wool baseball cap from Reeves (dark blue with orange script) when I was valet at Castle Pines. Still have it but it’s a little moth eaten.

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 15, 2009 5:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Marcus Thomas is definitely an End in a 3-4

He played very well in that position during the midseason experimentation.

"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy

by Ted Bartlett on Jan 15, 2009 10:05 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

100% agreed

he can star there. Time to take advantage of the 300 lb kid who can do a standing backflip. I really feel like the days of defensive WASTE are over…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 12:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude! Great find and even better thoughts.

Too bad Moss wasn’t mentioned. Time to go listen to the full podcast! :)

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 10:29 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post and thanks for sharing the interview.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9

by weazel on Jan 15, 2009 11:31 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great Post!

Most people miss the second point: a 3-4 doesn’t mean you always play 3-4, just that it’s your base alignment. A number of teams even go to a 4-2 nickle in passing situations.

Even if Doom lacks the coverage skills, he is probaly still valuable as a pass rushing specialist.

I wonder if Joe is available as a special assistant or something. That would certainly rally the fan base.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 11:41 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Man I would love Joe Collier to come in as a guru/mentor for Nolan

I could see him having a similar role as Doug Moe has with the Nuggets, I agree, getting a good NT will be key to making that defense work, I still think we need some more LB and safeties too.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Jan 15, 2009 11:42 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

The only problem is that if we need one good NT...really we need two NTs.

Because we don’t want to be in a position that our entire defensive schemeis blown from one key injury.

I am the eggman...they are the eggman...I am the Mermaid...Goo Goo Gajoob!!!

by PosterNutbag on Jan 15, 2009 11:47 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Jarvis Moss is another DE that may make a great OLB in a 3-4.

I am the eggman...they are the eggman...I am the Mermaid...Goo Goo Gajoob!!!

by PosterNutbag on Jan 15, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe even better than Doom

Supposedly Moss has a huge wingspan. Not so much of an asset as DE, but could be very usefull in coverage.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 11:52 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

See, I think...

That Moss would be the 3rd and long DE lined up outside of one tackle and Doom would be on the other side on third and long. I feel as though the 3-4 allows Doom to be on the field for ALL of the defensive plays, which is huge because he’s very talented buit in a run stopping position, I’m not sure we need him out there.

If Denver syats as is going into the draft, you have to assume the first 2 round are NT/S/LB

I think we need a star LB (maleuga-(sp)) for a 3-4 and would do well with Doom, DJ, Rey, and Larsen/Woodyard/Winborn.

I also think we need a NT, but I don’t know what players translate to NTs that are in the draft.

Finally, we obviously need a safety and I really liked Taylor Mays, but I think we can get Mizzou’s Moore in round 2.

Anyway, NT is the big questions, does anyone know who is A) available in the draft that can play or has played NT or B) available through FA.

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 11:58 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Mays is staying at USC for another year.

I am the eggman...they are the eggman...I am the Mermaid...Goo Goo Gajoob!!!

by PosterNutbag on Jan 15, 2009 12:14 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant to say that

I know, what a bummer

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 12:19 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post super, thanks

Is it reasonable to expect any college D Lineman to come in and start in a pro 3-4 as a NT?

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 15, 2009 6:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

NO CLUE!

I’d guess that it’s possible, but rare

by super7 on Jan 16, 2009 8:10 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Patrick Chung would be good in 3-4 as he is good in coverage, quick and brings the heat!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 15, 2009 4:11 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

in madden i made that switch to a 3-4

moss had 13 sacks and 4 ints first year!!! so since madden is so relevant i kow moss is going to do great

by robbo650 on Jan 15, 2009 3:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I had 17 INT and 8 TD returns as a FS in Madden.

They need to sign me…I’ll work for the league minimum.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Kenny Peterson...

actually showed some skill in the 2-gap role. I don’t think he’s a starter, but he could be a valuable backup. And great point about depth. Look at SD’s problems when Jamal Williams is hurt. They just aren’t the same team.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 11:51 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

re: Peterson

My guess is he’s one who fits, and it’s not hard to guess that since DE/DT ‘tweeners’ are all possible DEs in a 3-4. It’s ironic that we’ve been using this type of athlete lately, it’s as if some of the ideas of the 3-4 were being employed without actually going to a true scheme change.

by Colinski on Jan 16, 2009 5:45 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Where are you, Rubin?

We need you very badly.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 1:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I am excited looking to next season

I have listened to all of the Josh McDaniels interviews. And Just got done listening to Joe Collier and I think we just might have the right Head coach to get the job done.
I beleive that McDaniels can and will get the job done and whip this team into shape and take us all the way to the Super Bowl.
  The next thing we need to do is find a few huge defensive linemen that can move that line. Anyone have any ideas who that might be?

by donnamae on Jan 15, 2009 11:56 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Very Informative

Food for thought, as we wait for the pieces to fall into place.

by TheMastermind on Jan 15, 2009 11:57 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Joe Collier is DA man!

"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM

by Hogblog on Jan 15, 2009 1:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Can I get an Amen!?!

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 1:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen!

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 15, 2009 1:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen brother!

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 1:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout!

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 8:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Where would Carlton Powell fit into the 3-4?

Is he an NT possibility, or only on the ends?

by CoastalBronco on Jan 15, 2009 1:47 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

We don't even know how his achilles heel is going to, ah, heal.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 1:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

nice...

Check out the website listed below...

Rivers light in the loafers?

by EastCoastBronco on Jan 15, 2009 2:12 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

And a weak NT is the Achilles heel of any 3-4.

"WTF" By Zappa. 1/5/09

I can deal with bears....sharks on the other hand.......of course, I am not talking about if I were menstrual(I’m a guy so that isn’t it), but yeah. I can deal with bears if my arm or something was bleedin’, but sharks? I’ll pass on those. The worst feeling in the world is to be out in the surf and feel something very large brush up against your leg as you were alone waiting for your next wave. I don’t think I’ve gone out past waist deep in the ocean since. lol It was probably just a damn dolphin or something, but yeah. Screw sharks and the evolutionary train they rode in on!

by papigrande on Jan 15, 2009 2:37 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Powell

I read somewhere on MHR 2-3 weeks ago that he said he is lifting more weight now than ever before, including squats, so it looks like his achilles is healing nicely

Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. When the fear has gone past, I will turn to see fear’s path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Bene Gesserit saying. (From Dune, by Frank Herbert)

by bradley on Jan 16, 2009 9:23 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

definitely should get a look at NT

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 1:58 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The research I did on Powell said in several sources that he wasn’t troubled by double teams in college. As I mentioned on other threads, he’s supposed to have the bone structure to add about 10 – 20 lbs of muscle if he wants w/o sacrificing quickness. I hope he lives in the weight room this offseason. He could be an asset

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 15, 2009 4:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Rich Tuten is his friend

I hope the kid has a plan for staying in Denver, because if we dump him, ala Warren, some team like the Colts is going to end up with a heck of a nice young undertackle…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 4:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

If Tuten is his friend

he’ll have to hire firstfan for help in stretching…

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 15, 2009 5:06 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I am a little worried myself...

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 5:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Collier sounds like he isn't missing any bottles from his six pack,

and all of them are still full.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Jan 15, 2009 1:54 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Our current LBs in a 3-4

Everyone talks about taking an LB in the first round. Mauauaualoooooooga comes up in almost every post these days. Here is the thing though. Of all the positions on defense that need help, I say LB is the second most secure right now. Let’s look at it;

Our defense personnel in a 3-4

S - We need help at Safety. BIG time. Barrett showed potential. He may end up being a great safety. But right now he is good at best. After him there is a huge drop off in talent. And I don’t want Woodyard playing at safety. So we need a high draft pick / big name FA at safety.

CB I think right now CB is our strongest position on D. We have Champ who, even at his age, is still better then most CBs in the league, We have Bly who, even though he gets pretty constant hate from the fans, I believe will be atleast above-average if he is in the right scheme. He is a gambler. Gamblers suck with no help over top. Behind them we have Bell who I thought played real well this year all things considered, Paymah who may or may not get resigned, and Jack Williams who I think has some potential. We can save CB for next draft unless someone falls in our lap in the mid to late rounds that we cannot pass up.

LB Our second most secure position on D right now IMO. In a 3-4 we have a TON of options. First off, we throw Webster out. That will raise our talent level considerably ( $10 says his helmet goes flying off as he waves down a cab on his way out of town). Now, I say we move DJ inside. I have been opposed to this for awhile out of respect for all the position shifting he has had to put up with thru his career here, but I am beyond that sentiment now. He is a great tackler who always finds the ball. He is not a pass rush specialist. Next to DJ we put Larsen. He is our run punisher who is fast enough to still get into space. At LOLB we have a bunch of options. Personally I say put Woodyard at LOLB. If not, we have Winborn who is decent and Boss who is above-average for the 3 plays he is apart of in-between injuries. At ROLB (The pass-rushing position of a 3-4) we put in either Moss or Doom. I think one of those two will be able to step up and make the transition. Infact I think either of them will have a better opportunity for success there then at DE. We can wait for a huge talent on our LB squad until next draft. We have more pressing needs.

DL – Basically this squad needs to get blown up. I think a few players here can still play, but with some changes. Here is how I see it. At LE bring over Thomas. He is big. He is fast. He is agile for his size, but he is too small for a DT in a 3-4. I bet that, if he can make the transition, he would be an OUTSTANDING LE in a 3-4. At DT you draft a NT. This is the biggest need on the D. Maybe you draft 2 NTs. Maybe Peterson can act as a back-up, but we have no starter. At RE I say you draft someone if possible or bring in a FA. If not I say you use Ekuban who is reasonably big and reasonably fast, or you give Moss steroids. Otherwise you draft someone.

So as I see it, I say LB is not our biggest need. I certainly don’t feel like you spend the #12 pick on it. I say either a safety at #12, or you roll the dice with a NT at #12. Or, maybe even better, you trade down a few spots so you can still nab a NT and get a safety. Either way I say you hold off on LB because we have bigger areas of need. We have a decent LB core. Just look at the Atlanta game. We’re better off there then we all feel.

Check out the website listed below...

Rivers light in the loafers?

by EastCoastBronco on Jan 15, 2009 1:56 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

I really think that we have to free up some cap space if we are going to get serious about rebuilding this defense.

The easiest way to do this would be to cut or trade Robertson and Champ Bailey. Yes, Champ Bailey. Let me explain exactly why this must happen. In a 3-4 defense a CB role is diminished and the Safety’s role is increased. We need a top level safety and once we get one we will no longer need to pay a guy like Champ Bailey $12 million a year…Champ is great, but in our new defense he will be overpayed and under utilized. That’s just how I see it.

Nice comment man…I mostly agree with what you said. ;-) Where do I plant the dynamite for the DL? lol

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 2:14 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

he isnt gonna make 12 million next season. 8.5 is his cap hit.2 mill prorated bonus and 6.5 base

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 15, 2009 2:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

and if you trade or cut him

you take a dead cap space hit about as much as his salary. Getting rid of Champ does not free up cap space. This sounds like some idiocy someone picked up from Linacome. It’s this sort of foolish cap moves that got the Broncos in this position in the first place.

Robertson we probably try to renogotiate his contract.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 2:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

a trade doesn't have a cap hit

does it?

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 2:48 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

yep...

all the deferred signing bonus has to be taken in the year of the trade.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 2:48 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

For champ that would be

$4.6mil I believe to cut him in 2010, but a whopping $9.3mil in 2009….

Ouch.

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 2:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

or trade :)

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 2:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

that why Xander was brought on board...

so we wouldn’t keep making dumn cap decisions. Also, why you just don’t see that many blockbuster trades. They’re also capspace busters.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 2:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Gives me a new respect for the Keary Colbert trade

1.4 against the cap in 08, $0 to cut/trade

3.2 against the cap in 09, $3.3mil to cut/trade at that point.

Sweet ambrosia….:)

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 3:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

same place as you I'm sure

scrounged up whenever and wherever I can find it. :)

I got started on it though when member MattR sent me his 08 cap data. He may still keep all of that info up to date, and if he does, I would trust his numbers over mine anyday.

He is the guy to lookup, that is for sure.

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 3:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You hit the nail on the head Styg...Matt is the man.

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartes Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 15, 2009 8:52 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Then would it not be better to cut Champ this year rather than next year???

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:03 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

no

we save about $3 mill in dead cap space each additional year he plays. $9mill to cut him this year; about half that the following year.

The fact is; Champ is worth a lot more to us than what we would save. Welcome to Salary Caponomics where it costs more money to cut players than to keep them.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 5:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Which will sink the Raiders

for a decade due to Al’s lack of understanding of capology. Hail to the X man.

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 15, 2009 7:12 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i hope Robertson tries to renegotiate

that bonus due him is ridiculous. It just looks like something put in place so that he CAN be cut…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 2:51 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that was a way of providing an incentive...

If he played well enough to re-sign then he would get the money. Otherwise we weren’t out anything. I’m not an expert on cap issues, but that bonus may not count against the cap if we release him.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 2:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he was brighter than that :)

I mean, he had to know his playing time was going to be limited, so how can he realistically expect to impress enough to get that bonus (I think it was like $10mil or something?)

But I think you are right in that it was aimed at providing incentive.

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 3:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

Face it no matter what anyone thinks (me included) Champ and Bly will be here next season. Now before 2010 I think Champ will be either cut or traded, it that happens a 2 million hit is all Denver will take

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 15, 2009 2:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I was inflating it to make a point. I know it's not 12 mil. :P

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

my bad

I guess I am getting a little tired of all the Champ has to go talk, and that he is such a drain on the cap. Regardless if Denver cant sign people with the salary cap jumping up to 123 million somebody else besides Shanny needs to go

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 15, 2009 5:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Champ needs to stay. Denver owes him a ring.

aka MN Bronco

by pubkeeper on Jan 16, 2009 7:50 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Right

and I question the notion, thrown out a few comments further above, that CB is less important in a 3-4 than a 4-3.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 16, 2009 1:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Robertson will be cut

but I think Champ might be safe. His cap hit is 11.1mil in 09 and 10.6 in 2010 (bly is 7.3mil in both years). And if we get a great safety tandem, are you saying you don’t want the threat of pick 6 on every play? Cause that is what Champ will bring to the table in a good defense… If we didn’t have him, we would want him, and we would be talking about how to rework the cap to get him onboard.

I think it has just been so long since you’ve seen an INT that your first reaction is to think that Champ can’t pick the ball off anymore, even if your mind knows better. 10 picks a year is the norm for Champ. The last two years have been the flukes. If I am the Broncos I either wait patiently for market forces to do their work in in 2011, or I ask bailey to restructure and take his money in 2010 with a lesser cap hit if he can’t produce in 2009, with the option of working trades after 2009…

I will say this though: when his contract comes back up, don’t overpay to keep him. Make a solid offer and if he doesn’t like it, let him be the one to walk away.

As far as a little more cap space goes:

Manuel: 1.6 mil in 09 (1.9 in 2010), $333,000 to cut
Niko: 2.1mil in 09 (3.0 in 2010), 1.8mil to cut ($900,000 in 2010)
Engleberger: 1.2 mil, $0 to cut
Hamilton: (I know, I know, but look at the numbers…) 4.3mil in 09, $700,000 to cut

That is $5mil in cap space right there, (almost $10mil if you figure in Hamilton), and there are other $1 mil a year and less scrubs who will not make it through training camp if we have a draft like we did in 08 (like Louis Green, who comes in at $950,000 cap, $100,000 to cut)

All I’m saying is that Champ is a train worth riding to its final stop…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 2:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Champ will be here in 2009

unless something out of left field happens.

I agree with the assesment that Denver needs a NT, but if there’s no NT at pick #12, do you trade down or take Maleauga?

Tough questions.

www.nationalfootballpost.com has its first mock and it has Denver taking the CB from the Buckeyes. Yeah, it’s a bit off, I agree, but I guess you never know.

I would have wanted Denver to look at Gerald McCoy, but he’s staying in school too, so I’d guess that Denver is going to look at trading down unless Raji climbs the draft board.

Denver must find youth on defense, specifically D-Line and Secondary.

I’m really excited to see what the new boss thinks of the defensive youth (Woodyard/Larsen/Williams/Bell). He has no credibility on the line if he cuts on of them.

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 2:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

They are so inexpensive

and with cuts in other areas (like Niko and green) i dont see how they would be putting undue pressure on the roster limits.

At thsi point, with JW and Bell, I don’t see how there is any room for any CB additions. Any cuts in the area you bring up would warrant an immediate MHR audit, that is for sure….

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 3:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I’m just curious what The new guys will do with some of the guys that have been hanging around for a while.

I really like the young guys on the team, but guys like Paymah, Mustard, Haggans, and anyone that bounced between the team and the practice squad is on alert.

The further away from Shanny we get, the more I feel like a change was 100% neccessary.

Between coaching staff, player evaluation, front office guys, veterans, and young players, it just seems as though the organization was sagging.

I credit Bowlen for having the cojones to pull the plug and not be afraid to potentially fail. I applaud him.

I’m excited to see guys that look really different than what we’re used to seeing.

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 4:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You know,

With all these discussion, I’m more interested than I was in the chance of Champ at FS. He’s a great football mind, has the skills, we need one desperately, he’s getting older, and he tackles like heck. I never liked it before, but given his salary and cost if traded (which I don’t support), perhaps it’s a consideration.

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 15, 2009 4:45 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Champ is worth $10 as a FS imo....

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:06 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

What if we played a 46 and put him centerfield?

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartes Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 15, 2009 8:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

the 46 gets eaten alive

by the quick passing game. Go look at the way Marino shred the 86 Bears on MNF.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 9:06 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't seen a 46 since then I think...who was the last team to run it?

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartes Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 15, 2009 9:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The Eagles have run it quite a bit...

..over the years.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 17, 2009 8:55 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

but situationally...

not as a base package. I think the Ravens use it situationally as well, don’t they?

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 17, 2009 10:25 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree.

I am only saying that I would not lose any sleep over the Broncos cutting ties with Champ. He isn’t as important to our future as, say, Jay Cutler…or even BMarsh or Ryan Clady.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Well on that point I have to agree

By the time this team is ready for a serious run (2 to 3 years) I think Champ will be past his prime as a CB. We might still be able to keep him as a FS if he feels a strong loyalty to the team. We’ll just have to see.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 15, 2009 5:11 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I am listening to Guru's podcast....

he and I apparently feel the same way about Champ. I would say he read my comment, but he said it yesterday and I commented today. lol opps. It’s a rare day when JohnnyB and I are seeing eye to eye about the Broncos. lol I support his sentiments from MHR Radio yesterday… :)

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 15, 2009 5:14 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Robertson renegotiates.

With his knee he could find himself out of football in 2009. I think he can still contribute in either a 3-4 or 4-3 and limiting the number of plays might extend his career. He would be great in goal ine stands as well.

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 15, 2009 7:24 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm okay with trading him for valuable guys

But not dropping him for cap room. As the years go by he will have less value at CB, but more value in a move to FS.

Currently, he can still shut down any given receiver in the league by himself. That is priceless to have.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Jan 15, 2009 4:19 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Lawan Landry!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 15, 2009 4:20 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

why do we need to free up cap space?

arent we in great financial shape? i thought i read that we had $30 mil in space and were one of the top teams in that area. no need to cut our best defensive player. you saw what he did to randy moss before he got hurt

by purplesocks on Jan 15, 2009 9:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Freeing up cap space

It isn’t that we have no room to make moves, it is that there were bad uses of our money made in the past and we can do more right away then even our 30 mil in cap space gives us. I think most people will agree that a lot of money could be used to improve our defensive personnel.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Jan 15, 2009 9:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Fine analysis, ECB

My only additions are that if we have a chance at Maualuga we might pull the trigger on the best player available (in an area of weakness) basis. Yes, it’s our strength but that’s not saying as much as I’d hope. My preference is Raji, and yes, it’s high for him but he’s a special player, I suspect. Other options such as Sammie and Brace are out there, as is the possibility of Powell.

Also, I think Ek is well suited for 3-4 DE, since he’s fairly athletic still, has some skill at getting to the QB and has played both DT and De successfully.

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 15, 2009 4:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent comment ECB

This should be a separate post. I was one who did not want to move DJ again but there is a lot of merit to your thoughts.

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 15, 2009 7:20 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

After the last two years

I have little defensive dogma left…

Concision in style, precision in thought, decision in life.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 15, 2009 7:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Some great suggestions, ECB

I like the idea of moving DJ into the middle, especially since he himself made clear that he’d like to play there. He and Larsen would make a dynamite pair of inside linebackers. On the outside I’d love to see Woodyard, Doom, and Moss. If both Doom and Moss can adapt to linebacking that would really improve our depth and give us a lot of flexibility on passing downs.

I agree that DL and safety are our primary needs. With the move to the 3-4 DL is the most important of all, since we have only one viable starter, Thomas at LE, amongst our current personnel. Carlton Powell’s development could be a key here. I’m not convinced that he’s too small to play NT, especially if he puts on weight, as long as he’s good at reading plays and handling doubleteams. Even if he’s not the longterm starter he might well be the backup you spoke about. For the short term, at least, I think Ekuban can be pretty capable at one of the DE spots. Very informative post. Recommended.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 16, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Post really takes you back

to the early days of Bronco football at mile high
GO BRONCOS

I see said the Blind man to the Deaf man who was near.
What is it you hear when I speak in your ear.

by UB3 on Jan 15, 2009 3:11 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Future NT prospect

He won’t be coming out for another year, but he could be on the radar. All Big-12 NT, 76 tackles, 19 for loss, 7.5 sacks, 2 Ints returned for TDs, 6-4 300 right now. Ndamukong Suh.

"Be not like dumb-driven cattle...."

by jcps on Jan 15, 2009 3:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Nebraska, right?

I hate the Huskers, but once you make the leap to the Broncos, I don’t care if you played for the Taliban, I’ll root for you.

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 4:02 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel the same way about anyone from Ohio State

but have been willing to forgive Gradishar.

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 15, 2009 5:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

when was the last time Nebraska actually played defense?

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 15, 2009 5:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Old Big 8 joke

What does the N on Nebraska’s helmet stand for?

by CoastalBronco on Jan 15, 2009 5:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard that one

from a roommate of mine when I first starting working in SD who went to Nebraska. He seemed proud of it (?)

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 16, 2009 8:38 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

No longer good?

I am the eggman...they are the eggman...I am the Mermaid...Goo Goo Gajoob!!!

by PosterNutbag on Jan 16, 2009 12:26 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Love the find

I was listening to the Fan, but headed in to the gym before Collier came on! Thanks for the link!

by Nate Timmons on Jan 15, 2009 3:20 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Getting back to NT...there are several less expensive options in later rounds (Terrance Taylor/Ron Brace)...

However, there is NO safety worth a #12 pick. I dont think there’s a NT that is a #12 value either. I’d rather select Rashad Johnson(Alabama), Patrick Chung(UCLA)in 2/3 than William Moore(Mizzou) in 1st. But…after Moore, everything becomes somewhat less attractive. God knows Im not saying we dont need a saftey, but id rather fill it through FA, not this years draft since Mays is staying. He was probaly the only saftety worth of #12,and im not sure he’s even worth a 12. Let Barrett continue to grow into the position

 LB is THE biggest need. How could anyone not watch our D this year and cringe at the sight of our LBs chasing another TE/RB into the endzone…UGHHHHH! That means Maualuga’s the best available and would easily play the MIKE/TED next to DJ. On the outsides put “Doom” and (suggs/c. crowder) on the edges.

Carlton Powell is too small even if he is back to 100%. Listen to Joe Collier’s comments: It starts upfront with your NT, and they have to be big, and willing to sacrifice themselves so the LB’s can be the rockstars! He means the 325+ range. We dont’ have one of those guys…like a Kris Jenkins/Jamal Willliams/Shaun Rogers. But we could sure draft 1 or 2, and do it in later rounds at less cost.

"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM

by Hogblog on Jan 15, 2009 4:29 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great post

I agree, I think that Denver is going to be looking at Raji/Maualuga/Lauranitis (although I’ll take Maualuga or Raji, personally) at 12.

I’m not sure Denver wants to pay for someone who’s not a proven NT and not cheap and young, so the draft is where we’ll find a few down linemen.

Too bad Rodgers isn’t on the table THIS year!

by super7 on Jan 15, 2009 4:37 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Paymah is not that good...

If Paymah was any good at all then why did Josh Bell get a ridiculous amount of playing time?

by theflanman86 on Jan 15, 2009 7:05 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

HELP!

Could someone with greater knowledge of the system than my own please write a FanPost detailing what defensive players we’re likely to keep and where they would likely play in our new 3-4 scheme?

by ejruiz on Jan 16, 2009 12:48 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Agree, great call

I’m wondering what types of guys a 3-4 needs for conerbacks. I know we have preferred guys who play man, but as far as I can tell, the Pats played a combination

by super7 on Jan 16, 2009 8:12 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

From listening to the local media 'experts' the last couple of days...

I really don’t think anyone has any idea what is going to happen with our roster. Lots of speculation…very little certainty.

I am the eggman...they are the eggman...I am the Mermaid...Goo Goo Gajoob!!!

by PosterNutbag on Jan 16, 2009 12:27 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

CB types for 3-4 vs 4-3

No difference. The issue of prefered CB types is more a function of the system the defense is running (regardless of 4-3 vs 3-4). Hope that helps.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 17, 2009 8:59 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

LB IS A BIGGER QUESTION THAN THE POST SUGGESTS

At least it is IMO.

1. When I was a kid, I thought Collier was a God of a coach, but remember the scores in the three SBs that we lost. 35 points in 1 quarter against the Redskins. Granted, Reeves, et. tal. took the talent on defense on the team for granted. If we hadn’t lucked out with Meck and a few others, the defense would have depleted much faster. The last of the Orange Crushers retired after the NYG SB loss. After that our personnel on defense deteriorated quickly, until we were relying on our Offense/Elway to win, much like the situation we are in now. Elway really compensated for weak to mediocre defenses.

2. LB: Dum and Moss are prospects, but big questions marks. DJ can play anywhere. I disagree with the earlier analysis that said he can’t rush. He has the speed and athleticism to play any LB position. One of the most difficult decisions will be whether to put him at ILB or OLB. I am just not sure that he wants to play ILB. Larsen should be a very good ILB in a 3-4. I say draft Ray Ray and keep Larsen as depth, or start him next to Ray Ray and move DJ outside, and rotate Moss and Dum on the other. Don’t see how Boss, Woodyard, or Winborne have a future in the 3-4.

3. DE/DT/NT: To me Ekuban, Clemmons, Peterson and probably Thomas would seem to be good end prospects. They aren’t glory seekers, or good enough to be dominant in a 4-3 system, so why shouldn’t they be the unselfish DLs you need in a 3-4?… Anyway, I wish that we had a Richard Seymour/Trevor Pryce DE/DT for a 3-4, but we let him go…. If we don’t find an NT, we can’t run the 3-4. We will be swiss cheese again. That is absolutely critical.

4. S/CB: Champ and Dre are great CBs, they just don’t have anyone playing in front of them. My guess is that we will be able to draft a safety or two that will fill our needs. I don’t mind paying them what we do. We just need to get them out of run support so that they can stay healthy and do their day jobs—cover receivers.

Great posts and discussion. Really enjoy reading everyone’s take.

by GOBRONX06! on Jan 16, 2009 7:27 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

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