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MHR University - Nose Tackle Position Introduces New Issues

Mhruniversity_medium

Every move made by a coach brings advantages and disadvantages.  Every move is an exchange.  It is to be hoped that the exchange brings about a net advantage, but every move has a cost.

Take the likely move to 3-4.  While any defensive coordinator can run a 3-4 or a 4-3, it continues to look probable that we are looking at a 3-4 for 2009.  To me, it isn't so much because of "who" we are bringing in, but because of statements they have made, as well as our present situation (weakness on the line, strength at LB).

The biggest issue for the coaches and management will be in two parts.

1) a 3-4 just doesn't work uness you have a star quality NT.  (In theory, a team can have two star quality DEs instead.  But this really hasn't translated to the field in the NFL).

2) From a draft and FA perspective, LBs are easier to obtain than DLmen.  NTs are very rare finds.

Denver has some clear advantages and disadvantages moving forward.  Let's take a look at them...

Star-divide

NT - The Achilles Heel of the 3-4

If the Broncos move to a 3-4, they will have to bring in a substantial presence at the NT position.  The NT becomes something of a quarterback for the defense; none of the other positions matter if you don't have a superior player at this position.

What does this mean going forward?  It means that, until the Broncos obtain that key piece, much of Denver's moves in the reloading season become tied up until the NT problem is solved.  In a 4-3 the MLB is often seen as a key piece, but the weight of the team can be more evenly distrbuted.  Not so for a 3-4.

Denver will also need a back-up.  Like the QB position, one can't expect the back-up to have as much quality as the starter.  But he at least needs to hold his own for at least a few plays here and there.

Unlike the 4-3 where any player can be injured without too much loss of talent, a 3-4 team can suffer terribly if the starting NT is lost for more than one game.  The NT is like the queen in chess; she's so powerful that she can be a hinderance because her loss can have such a negative impact.

A lot of money will also be tied up in the position.

3-4 advantages (in Denver's case)

On the other hand, once a good NT is found, Denver may be in terrific shape.  The LBs don't need to be as talented as many of the 4-3 LBs are in other schemes, mainly because there is an extra LB on the field.

Denver has several LBs that fans have gravitated towards (Woodyard, Williams, and hybrid FB/LB Larsen).  If Webster, K2, and even Bailey are dropped, the team doesn't have to obtain a superstar to fill a fourth LB position.

At DE, Denver (depending on system) can use run blocking DEs (or any former DT) at DE, or go after talented one gap rushers who will combine with the OLBs for advantages on the edge of the OL.  I think Denver can fill the DE position much easier with the current roster for 3-4 than they can with the 4-3.

Thoughts on DL Versus OL Match-ups

Consider a few ideas about how lines match up.  Because of rules on what a DL can do (as opposed to what an OL can do), it is a common idea that one DLman is worth 1.5 OLmen in a pass rush.  If you have 4 DLmen, they outnumber the 5 OLmen 6 to 5.  Given enough time (a few seconds), the DLmen will always get to the passer.

To counter this, offenses either pass the ball quickly, or pull in more protection (such as a TE or RB).

In moving to a 3-4, we will also be commiting to rushing at least one LB each pass play.  The advantage in a 3-4 is that the offense won't know where the fourth rusher is coming from.  Because the rushes often come from the OLBs (in the 3-4), TEs are used more to block than RBs.  Two TE sets are the common pass protection formations against the 3-4.

Against teams with fast RBs, the wide alingment of the OLBs will help to negate wide rushes.  On the other hand, power runs up the middle will be hard to defend against because the LBs lose the protection of one DLman.

This is why the NT is critical.  He must be superior, and worth 2 OLmen instead of 1.5.  He must demand double teams on every play, but have the stamina to stay on the field.

What Kind of Defense Can We Expect From a 3-4 in '09?

IF Denver moves to a 3-4, there are three likely forms it could take.  It is still too ealry to be sure we will use the 3-4 as a base formation, and still too early to tell which system could be run.  However, most 3-4s have a few things in common.

Most 3-4s feature a more aggressive posture against the QB.  Denver fans dissapointed with the multiple 3 man rushes in 2008 will enjoy more pressure on opposing QBs.

3-4s are also more enjoyable to watch.  Whether the formation is part of a power scheme or a finesse scheme, more players are out of the trench (few fans enjoy watching the lines) to watch the game.  Even the rushing "4th LB" looks like a blitzer to the average fan.  While a few seasoned fans may enjoy watching the trenches, there is more action in the midfield for the majority of football fans to watch.

Because LBs are easier to find (and finance) than DLs, fans will also enjoy the excitement of following four LB players instead of just three.  Outside of the difficult NT position, a 3-4 is easier to put together than a 4-3.  (In my mind, the NT position balances out the difficulty.  Once the NT is found, the rest of management's job is all downhill).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In sum, if Denver switches to a 3-4 then the NT is the key.  Once that key is accomplished, Denver will have a terrific defense.  Without that key, Denver will remain in the wilderness for some time on defense.  

15 recs  |  Comment 107 comments |

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Very well said

I agree 100% bring in BJ RAJI BABY!

by IamMileHigh on Jan 22, 2009 8:31 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Hey HT, how long does it typically take for a NT to become a player

I ask because to see if you think it would be better to go after a NT via Trade/FA or through the draft. It seems like it takes DL players an average of 3 years to get adjusted to the league so if we drafted say Baji, are we looking at him to come in and start right away or would it take several years before we knew if he was the real deal or not?

also how do you think we should solve the NT problem? Who would you target in the draft or FA/Trade market?

by purplesocks on Jan 22, 2009 8:43 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great questions.

I believe in solving a critical vacancy by “firing a spread (of topedoes”, or in other words, going after several players to raise the chances of a hit. I would like to see a FA, and a couple of draft picks devoted to the NT position.

As far as who I would go after, I’ll leave that to the folks at MHR who follow the draft more closely than I do. FA will be tough, because no team wants to part with a true NT. We would likely have to go after a DT with strong attributes.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Starting NT's aren't often found in the bottom rounds of the draft

Which is why I would hesitate to spend more than 2 picks shooting for a nose. Obviously we DO need both a starter and a backup, but Powell has potential there, and I’d probably be looking to bring in a backup via FA

by jack_ on Jan 22, 2009 8:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

One would have to be a high pick.

The other pick (much lower) would be a hail mary shot. As urgent as the position is (much like a QB), I think we can’t afford to rely on one pick. Just my opinion.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:16 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

+1 I would like to know the answers to

purplesocks questions as well
Great post HT—can not get a bronco fix like this anywhere else!!

I see said the Blind man to the Deaf man who was near.
What is it you hear when I speak in your ear.

by UB3 on Jan 22, 2009 4:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks UB3

You’re the reason for MHR. I’m glad you get your Broncos stuff here! : )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:11 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel confident about my knowledge of Xs and Os (especially on defense)....

…but there are folks at MHR who are much more knowledgeable about draft prospects. As I mentioned to PurpleSocks, FAs will be tough to get (nobody will release a top notch NT), so we would have to go after a very good DT and hope for the best.

I advocate getting a FA, plus a couple of draftees for the position.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Very good analysis -

also very important is to solidify the corners and to find a good SS and FS. The SS in a 3-4 is big and physical, whereas a FS is generally more of a coverage guy.

1st – Raji (NT)
2nd – Chung (FS)
3rd or 4th – Kevin Ellison or Curtis Taylor (SS) – not sold on Barrett yet
-How about a corner / 3-4 DE at somepoint. At that point, we’d go:

DE – Draftee / Clemons back-up
NT – Raji
DE – Marcus Thomas
LOLB – Woodyard, crowder
LILB – Spencer Larsen
RILB – DJ
ROLB – Doomerville, Moss back-up

SS – Draftee (K.Ellison / C.Taylor), Josh Barret back-up
FS – Chung – maybe Delmas

Corners: Champ / Jack or Josh – time for Dre to come off the bench

by GJcontingent-rAd on Jan 22, 2009 8:52 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Crowder at LB?

when he didn’t even make it on the field as a DE? If anything he might be a good pass rushing DE in a 3-4, but I don’t think he has the speed or any sort of history of playing up and in space.

by poorboywilly on Jan 22, 2009 11:32 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree.

I’m not convinced that Crowder can’t perform at DE, but I don’t see him as a hybrid either.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Are we talk Channing Crowder at LB is a FA pick up from the dolphins?

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 22, 2009 7:02 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm thinking he meant our current DE Crowder.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:17 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I was not sure as GI's post had Crowder aplitting time with WW.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 23, 2009 5:51 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You can run the SS as a big hitter, or as more of a coverage guy.

Frankly, I’m hoping the front seven gell enough that we can run two coverage safeties. I’m not sold on Barrett yet either, but I also think he will probably work out. One more solid safety and we will be great there.

At corner we should pick up one or two guys since Bailey and Bly aren’t getting any younger (or cheaper). Good call.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:14 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Rather than worry too much about Safties

I would focus on the front 7. When we stop having to play with 8 men in the box, the secondary will be a lot better

by jack_ on Jan 22, 2009 8:08 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

I wrote a story to that effect a few weeks ago. And yet, for the sake of “best available”, it may be hard to pass on a standout SAF. If the majority of picks are front seven, one pick for SAF wouldn’t be so bad.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:19 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

given that defense is like a net...

we really HAVE to do something about safety this year. Given our obscene weakness at safety over the past five years, we’ve been defending 11 with nine. The 3-4 will help cover a lot of the territory we leave unguarded with our complete absence of talent, but safety is a position we’ve totally ignored for too long. Who else remembers the days of Smith and Atwater?

by Since1993 on Jan 25, 2009 1:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah the golden years

I grew up watching Smith and Atwater terrorize the field with big hit after big hit. I want that back in Denver.

"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."

by BroncoJoe87 on Jan 25, 2009 2:52 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to wait and see on Raji.

For some reason, I don’t feel as confident as I did with Clady…the “safe pick.” And maybe that will come in time, but all the articles here over the past few days have stressed the importance of the nose tackle. The ultimate importance of the nose tackle in the 3-4. The fact that the nose tackle can become “the achilles heel of the 3-4.”

I want to be darn sure that a rookie can perform before I put that much hype, trust and/or excitement into the guy. Plus, a lot of people are overlooking the back-up issue. What if he were to go down? Someone would be needed to fill the hole left by the vacancy.

I don’t want to sound like the pessimist here, and maybe I am being a bit pessimistic, but I think taking the wait and see approach is probably best for the time being. Heck, I expected a little too much last year and maybe I want to try and temper that enthusiasm this season.

Well, looks like as soon as the big coaching search is done we now have a whole new “NT search” beginning right before our eyes. It never ends!

by phantom818 on Jan 22, 2009 9:35 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Well, let's compare Raji to Haloti Ngata (Ravens)

He was a big NT taken #12 overall and he came in and performed very well in his first year. He clearly was able to tie up OL, stuff the run and rush the passer. Perhaps we hope Nagi can at least tie OL and stuff the run and then develop into a force that can apply QB pressure up the middle, as Ngata has done this past year.

Beware the wrath of a patient adversary.

John C. Calhoun --

by bcfunk on Jan 22, 2009 10:24 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha, alright, I will be

But for some reason I’m still not sold just yet. I can’t see the comparisons to Ngata. Ngata struck me as much more powerful coming out of Oregon…much more can’t miss. Again, I could be wrong. But I hope you understand my reservations, considering the importance of the NT position to this team if it decides to switch to the 3-4. I guess I’ll have to see more of the guy. If he’s got a similar style, that’s good enough for us. It’ll be nice to have a big-bodied, run stuffer drawing men at the line.

by phantom818 on Jan 22, 2009 12:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

no ill feelings here... :)

the draft is one big crap shoot IMO…. I’d advocate throwing darts if I was in charge (just kidding)… :)

Beware the wrath of a patient adversary.

John C. Calhoun --

by bcfunk on Jan 22, 2009 12:48 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Ngata didn't start as an NT for Baltimore

Unfortunately, this is a slightly spurious comparison. Kelly Gregg typically lined up as the NT (until this year when he got hurt), while Ngata lined up as a DE opposite Pryce…. Ngata is one of those total freaks that is as big as an NT, but as fast/agile as some OLBs. Truly amazing.

by cjfarls on Jan 30, 2009 10:20 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sold at all on Raji

and I know the popular opinion around here is GET HIM!!!!!1111ONE but I’m still really waiting to see on him. He’s been good at the Senior Bowl, but I still have very real reservations about him.

I am Jack's unbridled optimism.

by SlamDunkTheFunk on Jan 22, 2009 9:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I do too

12 is up there, draft wisely….

As Broncobear’s sig reads…“In Goodman we trust”

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 22, 2009 9:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Very well written, thanks. . .

I don’t believe, however, they would let Boss go if they go with the 3-4. While his performance was good, but pedestrian, in the 4-3, with his speed and range he could very well flourish in the 3-4.

A lot of mock drafts have had the Broncos going for Maualuga or Laurainits in the draft, but if they are serious about the 3-4, I think Raji could become the favorite there because, as you said, the NT is the key. You need real talent there. A couple huge reasons the 3-4 worked in the days of the “Orange Crush” could be found in the forms of Rubin Carter and Greg Kragen.

At LB, the present Broncos may have (dare I say?) even more talent than that of the ‘70s and ’80s. Of course, no one can exceed Gradishar or Mecklenberg . . . to say that would be ridiculous. But that could be D.J.’s breakout opportunity with his size and speed. Woodyard is as fast as Tom Jackson, and a better tackler. Larsen hits like a mortar shell, as did Joe Rizzo. And Boss is bigger, faster, and rangier than was Bob Swenson. They are deeper, too, with Winborn and Green in the wings.

I have been on of the biggest opponents of the 4-3 in this team, but if they can get a good NT and decent backup, along with a decent safety to go back there with Barrett, I could actually get excited about this defense.

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2009 10:51 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I forgot about Moss

A 3-4 could very well be his salvation if he proves he can play in space. He has the measurables one likes to see in an OLB. . . . and even maybe Dumervil, although Doom may always be better as a pass-rushing specialist.

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2009 10:57 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's hard to tell if a DE will work as an OLB in a 3-4.

But I think it’s likely that some guys will be able to try out. I still don’t think Moss is a lost case at DE. This past year was really his first year playing (after injury). I saw some things I liked that can be developed. But he may very well have some OLB qulaties in him.

Can’t wait to find out!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:27 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff AZD!

1) Boss – I like Boss, but only when he is playing. He spent much of the year on IR, and didn’t play much in DET either. If he stays healthy then I’m all for keeping him. Unfortunatly he gets hurt an awful lot.

2) LBs – I agree that the 3-4 would make better use of our LBs. The line is the only missing part.

3) Excitement – Agree 100%!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I say pay Haynesworth

a truck load of money to come here AND draft BJ Raji with our first pick. Then I would let them share the NT minutes, and every once in a while put them on the field at the same time (Haynesworth at a 3-4 DE or both at DT’s for when we go to a 4-3 every once in a while). That also solves the back up problem.

Go M's

by OBF on Jan 22, 2009 11:00 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure

I would want Hayneworth’s off-field problems. You have the right idea: bring in an experienced player because that is one position it usually takes a couple years in which to orientate. But Haynesworth would cost a boat load of money, and the Broncos have already had a boat load of problems with some of the free agents they have had the misfortune to bring in.

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2009 11:05 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Tough call on Hayensworth.

I’ve heard stories both ways on his behavior. His face stomping episdode turned me off, but maybe he’s reformed himself. Still, just being a great DT doesn’t neccassarily make one a great NT. It’s an interesting proposal, and one that several folks at MHR have rallied behind. I’m still nuetral at this point.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Another damned typo . . .

In my first sentence, I mean to say I would NOT want Haynesworth’s off-field problems.

Maybe I’d better check into some Alzheimer’s pills or something . . .

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2009 5:46 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That's how I read it though, because I read your title as the first part of the sentence.

You’re ok!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Bring in Chris Cole from the Packers and draft Raji...

Cole will provide a stop gap until BJ is developed.
Another player I am high one, who played out of position in Detroit is Shaun Cody.
He was drafted 2nd round from USC and played NT/DE for USC 3-4 .
He can put on size and would be a cheap pick up for us~!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 22, 2009 7:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec for you

Except for the QB, it does begin with the lines. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. That may be an old, worn-out adage, but it has never lost its truth . . .

Never argue with a fool, lest you take on his appearance. - my daddy

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2009 11:35 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope. I rec'd HT's post. Looked funny though.

I just looked at it – you can’t rec yourself. Funny thought…Anyway, folks seemed to like that note on a NT and rec’d me to show it.

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 22, 2009 5:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Say...

…I’m thinking you set the MHR record for recs with the medical piece you wrote recently. Now you’re getting recs on your comment (one from me too), and you’ll soon surpass the recs for your comments above my article!!! lol

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:32 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 22, 2009 5:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

How likely is it

that we will know for sure if we will be planning to use a 3-4 before draft day? Is this the type of thing that will be kept secret for as long as possible? Or maybe something that will not be decided until draft day depending on who is available? I don’t know enough about coaching to know what to expect. Anyone have any insight?

by dabriza on Jan 22, 2009 11:36 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I imagine

that it will be kept quiet until the draft. We wouldn’t want to tip off any crazy owners/GMs that might have a bone to settle with us and try to steal our picks (not that Darth Davis would ever resort to that kind of thing, a la AJ Smith).

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 22, 2009 11:53 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

It'll probably be known once FA hits

If we sign a 3-4 NT in free agency prior to the draft you’ll know it :)

Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960

by Darin H on Jan 22, 2009 2:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I would think it wose to play the cards close to one's vest.

But really, no one is going to care too much. We’ve heard some hints already (towards a 3-4), and it could just be a bluff. I think who we want in the draft is a bigger secret in the scheme of things than which formation will be our base.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

"..it 'wise' to play the cards..."

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Great work, HT

Always love reading your stuff on defense.

I thought the hire of Nunnely from SD was huge. He’s already worked through a successful transition from 4-3 to 3-4 and worked Jamal Williams into a rock solid NT.

The LBs don’t need to be as talented as many of the 4-3 LBs are in other schemes, mainly because there is an extra LB on the field.

So, if a team has a better-than-average LB corps, does that provide some cover while a new NT gets up to speed or does the NT learning curve negate the better LB’s?

aka MN Bronco

by pubkeeper on Jan 22, 2009 12:23 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

That's very hard to quantify.

Even great LBs are going to have a hard time if the OL gets to them unimpeeded by the DL. I remember Ray Lewis commenting that he crave the 4-3 because he needed more protection to do his job well. On the other hand, a great NT with a shorter learning curve would help our LBs a lot.

Over all, the burden is somewhat higher on the DL than the LBs in the 3-4.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

We ABSOLUTELY must bring in a very talented NT

However that doesn’t mean Goodman should draft a player he doesn’t think will pan out at nose. That’s what it all comes down to for me. If Goodman thinks Raji is our guy, then we have to draft him. If Goodman thinks Raji won’t pan out (or if Raji is gone by 12) he needs to find someone else and ensure we get him.

by jack_ on Jan 22, 2009 12:31 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Very correct.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Just one more in a long line of excellent posts HT, Thank you

I am very interested in your reply to purplesocks above.

It all starts in the trenches HT 11/11/08

by firstfan on Jan 22, 2009 12:58 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Done!

Your sig was never truer than now.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome post coach...very succinct !!!

REC’D!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

by boydy2669 on Jan 22, 2009 7:20 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks boydy!

You da man!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:20 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

DL

We do have a few players who could get spots on a 3-4 line.

Carlton Powell is a runstuffing type who uses base power and anchoring to do his job, that fits well into the mold of a 2-gap 3-4 system like the one the Patriots run. He could probably fill the role of Ty Warren. I am not sure he is powerful enough to be a NG, but I think he projects well as a DE.

Marcus Thomas is not your typical 3-4 guy, he relies on quickness more than power which is often not a good thing. He is no slouch in the weight room however and has been facing a lot of double teams this year, he might be able to slide out to DE as well, but this is more of a stretch in my eyes.

We really need a true NG, there are a few in the draft who could warrant consideration, Raji, Brace and Sammie Lee Hill. In the short term we are going to need to pick up a backup as well since neither of these 3 would do well without being rotated in year 1. We could kick Powell inside when the rookie comes off, if we can’t find a suitable backup.

As for DE there are a few players in the draft who fit the profile, and also a few in FA, Olshansky, Dwan Edwards, Shaun Cody, but that position is not as dire a need as NG.

by gyldenlove on Jan 22, 2009 2:41 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Good points all!

Agreed.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Following New Englands footsteps

If McDaniels follows NE with regards to drafting. The DL looks like the most important position.

DE Ty Warren 13th overall 2003
NT Vince Wolfork 21st overall 2004
DE Richard Seymour 6th overall 2001

So I definitely think they’ll target BJ Raji in the 1st. (though I didn’t like that Mayock called him out this week)
 With the exception of Mayo this year NE seems to get by with over the hill LB’s for the most part and still gets quite a bit of production out them.

I would also love to see Chung and/or Delmas at safety.

by mrwhite20 on Jan 22, 2009 3:10 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Reassuring names.

All three of those guys have had more than competent NFL careers. The vast majority of defensive linemen never pan out in the NFL, and to be 3 for 3 in the first round in the defensive trenches is truly a feat in itself. Hopefully the same devotion to meticulous research the New England brain trust will be present under the Jedi administration and that drafting success will be present on our defense.

私の署名はちょうど任意風変わりな言葉および日本の特性である。
-My signature exactly is optional queer word and the Japanese quality.

by papigrande on Jan 22, 2009 3:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

A great DL...

…is the key to the 3-4, and the NT is the anchor. Our LBs would look great behind a Warren, a Wilfork, and a Seymour. Good stuff.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:46 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Marcus Thomas adding pounds

Marcus Thomas would be a pretty effective NT in a 3-4 if he adds a few more pounds to his frame, I disagree with him being a DE tho hes explosive but not the kinda pass rusher you think he is, he will def be more effective at the nose..

Other than that I think Ekuban and Crowder can be effective DEs

Moss might be a good rush OLB, I know Elvis Dumervil certainly can and don’t say hes too small because hes the same size as James Harrison and Harrison is doing OK in my book.

by KevinJames3 on Jan 22, 2009 4:30 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I think Thomas would be ok at DE...

…but more as a run stuffer or a hybrid run stuffer/rusher to compliment the OLB. I agree the other four can probably get the job done too.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

More to NG than weight

I think it is a common misconception that all you need to be a good NG is to be fat.

The 3 skills that are most important for a NG are:

1. Anchoring, a NG must be able to plant his feet and hold his ground against two offensive linement.

2. Gap recoqnition, a NG has to be good at figuring out where the rush is going to come so he can avoid being shielded.

3. Hand fighting, it is so important that a NG can keep the offensive linemen from getting a hold and controlling him. He has to be able to keep their hands off him so he can move laterally and close down lanes or occupy blockers so the linebackers can move into the running lane.

Marcus Thomas relies on his quickness and he boost off the line to make plays, he doesn’t have the technique required to be a NG even if he weighed 500 LBs.

by gyldenlove on Jan 24, 2009 2:07 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Hand fighting

There’s a kung fu skill called ‘sticking hands’. It is an ability to ri the offonents off of yours, stick yours to theirs and control their body and weight that way. I wonder if these guys have ever heard of it – I practiced it at one point and was very impressed at the ways to apply it.

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 24, 2009 2:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Many pro level training techniques for linemen...

…mirror some of the skills taught in judo and other martial arts where leverage is a major function. Still (much like judo), weight is often an advantagous factor.

While I agree with glydenlove that “fat” isn’t the only thing, “weight” is still very helpful for a DT or NT in most systems.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 25, 2009 12:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

raji

sad to say, but i think the packers with the 9th pick, and having just hired capers, we can say so long to any chance of getting raji.

by thereal oldestfan on Jan 22, 2009 4:50 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Good point.

Do you think we might trade up for a potential NT?

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:51 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

So if in the reloading season we get a good NT....

what does that mean to the team as a whole to expect next year?

So once we get the key NT our Defense will be “terrific”
Our Offense seems to be terrific and I think McDaniels will only help
ST- who knows

So if we get a NT our team will have a legendary O, terrific D and possibly better ST.
I see uncapped potential next year….

by RiG on Jan 22, 2009 5:16 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I think a 3-4 with a good NT...

…would, at the very least, be a huge improvement over last year. I don’t think we will have a very good defense in ‘09, but I think we can at least be average, and on the right track. I’m hoping we get at least a couple of players that we end up being excited about, and fix the rest in ’10.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:19 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks HT for the knowledge...

I agree with the “shotgun approach” as my high school history teacher would say when someone answered the same question with different responses.

This draft is interesting….I think there are only a couple real difference makers and the rest are pretty average.
I hope we do our due diligence and make sure we are not reaching for a player that we want to be someone but really isn’t…

K.M. for the 12th!

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 22, 2009 5:20 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Oh and of course...Rec'd!

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 22, 2009 5:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Steve

The shotgun approach is the best approach (in my opinion) when you need a critical spot filled. Go after a FA, and a couple of guys in the draft. We’ll know before too long!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:24 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

With 8 draft picks save Knowshon, and all the FA defensive players

We could in theory have a whole new starting 11!!

"I am not trying to start anything I am just saying that i think if you take Knowshon and draft D later you guys will be hella good next year" ...IamtheGreatest - The smartest Chiefs fan I ever had the priviledge of reading!

by Steve O' on Jan 22, 2009 5:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That sounds exciting...

…until one considers the “gell” factor (the importance of the guys playing as a unit for some time). But yeah, I’m all for bringing in a ton of new defensive talent and letting them compete for starting spots this summer.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 22, 2009 5:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

does any gelling spread over from last year given we change to 3-4

if every ones indiff positions it seems we would have to re-gel though it might be easier…???
it seems to me to have a gelled group you would need working system to gel into
hopefully this is the year we start a long time of consistency on D

by RiG on Jan 22, 2009 8:11 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a gell factor for a new group playing together...

…AND for playing in a new system. But given the lack of a recognizable system in ‘08, we have to implement something. With good coaching, I’m hoping the “gell” factor will be a short lived issue.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:23 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely off topic...

how did the divisions and playoffs/wildcards work when there was not 32 teams in the nfl??

by RiG on Jan 22, 2009 8:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Small difference

Before there were 32 teams, there were only 3 divisions in each conference. So basically it worked the same as it does now, but instead of 4 division leaders you only had 3. That mean 3 wild-card teams. The division leader with the worst record would play the worst wild-card team while the other two wild-card teams would face off. From there, it worked the same as it does now.

I for one am a proponent of adding 2 wild-card teams to each conference and making all teams play (no bye-weeks).

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Jan 22, 2009 10:21 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

It was a mess.

One division would have a seperate set of rules in each conference. It’s a much better system with 32 teams, and I hope we never contract or expand from 32.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 24, 2009 12:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of what goes into moving a DE to OLB....

…is found purely in trying out a player. I imagine a few DEs (including Doom) will be put through some drills. Off the cuff, I would say he has a reasonable chance at making such a move, but I think we’ll get our answer at camp.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:25 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

after reading this I thought of two crazy things

Would it be possible to transform a large offensive lineman to DT. Seems like more big people on offense in this draft. I would assume the biggest issue would be the height.

Can we move Champ to FS and get the CB from oakland as a FA

by scottwchicago on Jan 22, 2009 9:01 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I actually had the same thought

what would it take to convert an O Lineman? or is it even possible?
I’ve also been looking at our O Line, we may need a center if Wiegman retires with Nalen, I’ve heard rumors He’s thinking about it. Ben Hamilton is the only other on The TEAM.

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 23, 2009 3:21 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

OLmen have an entirely different skill set...

…and such a move isn’t common. You’re more likley to see QBs switching positions with WRs, and DEs with OLBs. I don’t think Aso will be let go by Oak, and Champ is still too valuable at CB (in my opinion).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:27 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry I forgot about the rookie Kory Lichtensteiger

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 23, 2009 3:25 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget Polumbus.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 3:28 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I did'nt see him on the roster

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 23, 2009 3:29 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

PS?

In Goodman We Trust

by Emmett Smith on Jan 23, 2009 11:15 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Call me crazy

But I belive there is just to many ifs in trying to switch to the 3-4 at this time. If I were to have my choice I would go for the sure thing and drafta top notch LB try to hit paydirt with a couple of safties and bring in some depth with the other positions. A couple of decent FA grabs and the 4-3 would be set and ready to do. I can understand the big push by everyone to make the change to the 3-4 because of how dismal our D was this season but I do not belive it had as much to to with the scheme as it did with the talent and the coaching decisions. Everyone here may call me a stark raving mad idiot but I do belive the 4-3 can work just as well as the 3-4 and we will not have to throw all our cards in one place in order to try and make it work. The draft is much to important(and iffey) to try and find a nugget on a mountain of coal. Remember Maluga is out there and in this entire draft he looks like one of the few sure fire picks. If he is what almost every scout out there is saying he is, that pick alone would make our 4-3 defense much better. One last thing about the 4-3 it is obviusly the better D to run when stopping those inside running attacks that most NFL teams like to use.

by broncosorbust on Jan 23, 2009 4:04 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

You're crazy!

Sorry, you asked for it :)

Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960

by Darin H on Jan 23, 2009 10:39 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear you.

Here’s the thinking though.

1) Too many of our coaching staff folks are now 3-4 folks. (That doesn’t mean a lot to me, since my mantra as a former defensive coordinator is that any coach can run a 4-3 and a 3-4 indifferently. But it’s still a point that leads to…)

2) A couple of the coaches have now mentioned their intentions with regards to a 3-4.

3) We are missing more pieces for a 4-3 than a 3-4 (4-3 needs – 2 DTs / 2 good LBs vs 3-4 – 1 very good NT and perhaps 2 halfway decent LBs).

I lean towards a 4-3 myself, and thought the talk about a 3-4 was premature at first. But after some recent comments by the coaching staff, I think it’s reasonable to discuss the possibility. At worst, it’s an intellectul exercise for everyone. And assuming we get a solid NT, I think we are better situated for a 3-4 right now. Just my opinion though.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 23, 2009 12:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

3-4 LBs

how much difference is there between the ROLB and LOLB?? -blitzing and zone whys + strongside/weakside??
how about RILB and LILB?

by RiG on Jan 23, 2009 4:56 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent question.

My next MHR-U will be addressing your question. It will come out next week.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 24, 2009 12:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Looking forward to it!

"If you don't know where your going you might find yourself somplace else."

by BroncoJoe87 on Jan 24, 2009 2:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and LDE vs RDE

how are they positioned?
i assume they would not be symmetrical…

by RiG on Jan 23, 2009 4:57 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

That will be in my next story too.

: )

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 24, 2009 12:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't wait for it!

After the Superbowl, the stories on draft projections will hit the ground running. In the meanwhile, we’ll still be getting Broncos news and analysis up on a daily basis, both on the front page and from our excellent membership in the posts section. Keep it right here brother!

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 24, 2009 12:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Another solid post coach...

thanks for taking the time.

What happens if we don’t find a dominant NT? Can the 3-4 be played by 3 one gap players up front, and have the LB’s cover the other gaps?

From there, I'd like to say that the wheels came off, but that wouldn't feel like an accurate description. The wheels didn't just magically come off, the Raiders all got out of the car, shot the wheels off the own car, busted out the taillights, smashed the windshield and poured Splenda in the gas tank. Then they all piled back inside and started screaming, "CAR WON'T MOVE, ME SAD NOW!" - MJD Yahoo Sports

by donbok1 on Jan 24, 2009 6:06 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

The 3-4 can be played with 1 gappers, but the NT must still be a domineering one gapper. He must still command double teams. (The Fairbanks Bullough 3-4, which is what I would expect from our current crop of coaches, should be a more traditionaly 2 gap).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 25, 2009 12:27 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

A belated thank you, HT, for another intensely educational article

What I look forward to with the 3-4, or at least hope happens, is seeing us rush four men and getting an advantage by overloading one side. I see this with Pittsburgh all the time. Not knowing where the fourth rusher is coming from, the o-line ends up with one guy trying to block two players while somebody at the other end of the line guards empty air. You get a man advantage without having to commit an extra rusher.
If in addition to that you also sometimes commit an extra rusher, sending five instead of four, you have
a real chance of harrying the QB into making critical mistakes.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 25, 2009 3:32 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Right.

Any system of 3-4 is going to see at least 4 rushers, so (thankfully) our days of multiple 3 man rushes should be over.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 25, 2009 12:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

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