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"I think he will fall short. Not in the long run, but the #2 WR didn’t get in the first year, the #2 TE, who was a pass catcher, now I think has to be matched up with the other pass catchers, Obviously, Cris Carter has more catches, Andre Reed has more catches than Sharpe. I think it will take a few years, not out of the question Sharpe gets in the first year, I still think it won’t be this year, though.

9 months ago Milehighreport_tiny John Bena 28 comments 1 recs  | 

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Clicked on the link but couldn't find it

Just a page full of links. Which one?

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 30, 2009 10:27 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

They moved it to the archive...

Click the link again, and scroll down to the first John Clayton link you see. It is about 15 minutes long, but fast forward to the 14:00 mark and you’ll be very close….

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by John Bena on Jan 30, 2009 10:31 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

John Clayton

is small, stupid man. Shannon Sharpe was the best TE to ever play the game. He held all the records a TE can hold when he retired and won 3 SB rings. Question for John, how many SB rings does Cris Carter have Zero. Yea Carter and Reed have more catches because he was a WR not a TE. They should be Voting on him as a TE not a WR. He did not play WR. If Sharpe does not get in the HOF this year there is truly an east coast biast and a biast towards the Broncos in general. It will be a slap in the face to the Bronco organization and the best TE to ever play the game.

by gnarlybroncodude on Jan 30, 2009 12:04 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I think John Clayton is being ignorant in some respects

but this whole thing has been misrepresented here. I was given the impression, when this issue first surfaced, that Shannon had been officially placed in the WR category, and that voters had to consider, does Shannon Sharpe deserve to be in the HOF as one of the best WRs who ever lived? But he is not being arbitrarily placed in a category, and voters are not being forced to consider him only in the context of that category. Clayton is indicating his thinking. Initially, he seems to be saying, if the alltime number two wide receiver didn’t get in on the first try, why should we expect the alltime number two tight end to get in on the first try? We could argue about whether Sharpe is really number two rather than number one at tight end, but otherwise that’s not an unreasonable point. But then Clayton continues that since Sharpe was primarily a pass catcher, then he shouldn’t get in ahead of receivers who caught more passes than he did. Now Sharpe did shift the balance between pass catching and blocking towards the former for that position, but pass catching even for the modern tight end paradigm he created is still not as primary as it is for a wide receiver. That’s where Clayton’s argument runs off the tracks. He’s wrong, in my opinion, but not as obviously or as egregiously wrong as he’s been painted. Furthermore,
the whole thing about Sharpe being in some sense officially moved into a different category is simply somebody’s not very careful reading of the original interview, thus leading to the reporting of an occurrance that never happened. Thanks to JohnnyB for providing a link to the original comments, thus enabling this misimpression to be cleared up.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 30, 2009 1:08 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh...

Well, let me first apologize to any that I may have led to believe that the hof voters were going to go to their website, and scratch off the “Tight End” in the Shannon’s profile and scribble in Wide Receiver.

That’s not what I meant at all in my original FanPost. Please see below as to how I interpreted the content on M&M…

by tunga77 on Jan 30, 2009 1:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, there are semantical (is that a word?) differences

But in the end, I think we’re all deriving the same meaning, that is, because Shannon Sharpe is viewed upon as a pass-catching TE, his merits are going to be judged against those of WR’s, namely Chris Carter and Andre Reed this year. M&M derived the same meaning and said as much later on in the broadcast as they re-hashed the discussion.

Also, as I said in Ted’s thread, the email response from Vito Stellino to Broncoman seems to indicate that this rationale does not reside solely with John Clayton:

of course, you could argue he was more of a WR than a TE because he rarely blocked

And as I said in response, I really don’t understand why if one thinks Shannon did not block or block well, that all of a sudden he should be judged against WR’s. That is just illogical. Instead, why not simply review some tape and judge him on his blocking skills! Compare him with other TE’s on all aspects: blocking, catching, running, team leadership, SB rings, etc… and give equal (or weighted, whatever) consideration to all aspects of Shannon Sharpe’s game… as a Tight End.

And oh, last I checked, WR’s need to block on running plays too… at least in Denver, they do.

by tunga77 on Jan 30, 2009 1:07 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

You're absolutely right...

The translation error was mine. But the MSM is still arrogant and biased, and the HOF selection process is still flawed.

"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy

by Ted Bartlett on Jan 30, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm afraid you're inadvertently supporting Clayton's argument

If both WRs and TEs are expected to catch passes and block, then that description, as far as it goes, makes them functionally equivalent. In that case the guy who catches the most passes, if that’s what both of them primarily do, is the better player. Where Clayton’s argument goes wrong, and where yours fails to engage and correct it, is here. If Shannon’s blocking was no better or no different than that of the WR, then he should be expected to catch more passes than the latter in order to be considered better. But Shannon’s blocking doesn’t suffer in comparison to wide receivers. It suffers in comparison to blocking tight ends, which is to say more traditional tight ends, and at that only to a degree. If he couldn’t block at all he wouldn’t have been a tight end. The point of his revolutionizing the position is that he shifted the balance of receiving versus blocking.

But a second difference is the kind of blocking a tight end does. How many wide receivers pass block?
How many wide receivers block defensive ends or linebackers on running plays? Unless I’m mistaken they generally block defensive backs and safeties, and usually or often downfield rather than at the line of scrimmage. Hence, to say that a tight end is a poor or only fair blocker doesn’t mean that a wide receiver who’s considered a relatively good blocker would be able to carry out the former’s blocking assignments better than he can. These are the sorts of considerations that establish that tight end is a different kind of position than wide receiver, and that each’s relative stature should be based on how good he is compared to others at his own position.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 30, 2009 1:45 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

But in rereading your argument you seem to be making

points similar to the ones I just made. It was your last sentence, which basically undermines your argument, that misled me. I should have read more carefully myself.

"In the empty spaces - lacunae, vacuums, pauses, voids, black holes - new things begin. We are born anew from the unexplored space, the badlands, the outlaw territory." - Sam Keen

by spock on Jan 30, 2009 1:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure no problem...

In the end, I guess what I’m irked at is that it is unfair to the player once you start blurring the lines between positions. There’s a reason why we label players as a TE vs WR, just as there is a reason why we label an OT vs DT. True, there are some positions that are fairly similar to each other in terms of roles and responsibilities, but there are still differences to separate each.

Also, in that last line, I was essentially making a small a snide remark to Vito’s statement.

by tunga77 on Jan 30, 2009 2:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't really matter to me...

Sharpe’s still going to get in. True, the MSM vastly ignores Bronco-land when making decisions, but I’m glad the MSM DOES recognize that Sharpe WILL get in, and that’s what we should take out of the statement.

It doesn’t bother me that two deserving receivers trump Sharpe this year (if that is the case) and he still gets in another year. Glad we all cleared these comments up. The misinterpretation of what was said got a lot of people heated. I personally don’t have a problem with it, because it’s the guy’s opinion (whether it be wrong or not).

I personally am not going to nitpick exactly what year he gets in (I mean it is only his first year), as long as he gets in. Yes, I know he probably should get in and that getting in your first year means a lot, but I prefer the ‘patient route’ myself. Clayton did also mention the “#2 wide receiver getting IN” and also mentioned Sharpe in the class of a top tight end. I don’t mind waiting.

by phantom818 on Jan 30, 2009 1:49 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

This is ridiculous

That’s like saying a quarterback with tons of rushing yards will be judged as a running back, and compared to them, he stinks.

by davidsleep on Jan 30, 2009 2:19 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

+1

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 30, 2009 2:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Or the half back is judged on the carries,

the full back makes….

I see said the Blind man to the Deaf man who was near.
What is it you hear when I speak in your ear.

by UB3 on Jan 30, 2009 2:39 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Revolutionizing the position..

I have been told by some of the voters who replied that Kellen Winslow was the one who revolutionized the position.

by stedtfeld on Jan 30, 2009 2:55 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Well, he was.

Shannon just took that to the next level. I think that if it weren’t for Shannon and Tony Gonzalez, the receiving TE would have been a fad and gone out of vogue after a few years. However, now guys like Tony Scheffler, Chase Coffman, and even myself owe some debt of gratitude to Kellen, Shannon, and Tony G for legitimizing our position. I liken it to the quarterback; Otto Graham was the first “modern” QB, but after him John Unitas made it a legitimate weapon in an NFL offense.

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Click here to beat their scores!!!

by papigrande on Jan 30, 2009 3:03 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hard to argue with that

Although you have to include Ozzie Newsome as well.

by MattR on Jan 30, 2009 3:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Kellen Winslow was a pure pass catching TE...he revolutionized the one dimentional TE that catches balls..

Shannon Sharpe revolutionized the position by being BOTH a great blocker and pass catcher.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 30, 2009 3:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair

He was not a great blocker. He became an adequate blocker in time, but nobody was going to confuse him with Daniel Graham.

I am Jack's unbridled optimism.

by SlamDunkTheFunk on Jan 30, 2009 4:16 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.

That MNF game against Derrick Thomas was a good example. Everyone blame’s Sharpe’s mouth for provoking Thomas, but it was Thomas’ inability to get past Sharpe that frustrated Thomas. I think Sharpe was one of the best blocking tight ends of the decade.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 30, 2009 5:37 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember that game

Thomas blowing up was downright epic. Other than that, we’ll just have to disagree on this point.

I am Jack's unbridled optimism.

by SlamDunkTheFunk on Jan 31, 2009 12:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

Sharpe at that point in his career was a very solid blocker, but it wasn’t until around the time he went to Baltimore that he really started hunkering down on that part of his game.

Overall, I’d say he was a Good blocker…that game was fantastic though and it was just hilarious how he was handing Thomas his rear the whole game.

I don’t want breakaway speed. I want break-some-poor-fool-as-I-bowl-you-over power getting 6 yards off a play that should have been stopped for 2 at most.

by sadaraine on Feb 2, 2009 5:25 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently...

This WR talk has gotten back to Shannon too:
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11586343

“They didn’t list my position as receiver,” Sharpe said. “They listed it as a tight end. When I went to the Pro Bowl, I went as a tight end. When I made the All Pro team, I made it as a tight end. When they introduced us and I ran out of the tunnel, they introduced me as a tight end. So how is that possible that now that my career is over, they say, ‘Well, he put up stats like a wide receiver’? It’s not my fault I was ahead of my time. And now everybody wants to get a guy who can do things other than block. That’s not my fault. I find it ironic that’s how they want to view my career, but I take it as a compliment that my skills were so much advanced that I put up numbers like a receiver.”

by tunga77 on Jan 30, 2009 4:08 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Perfect quote. Here's another one.

Sure, it’s self-promotion, but Sharpe’s logic cannot be denied. He has three Super Bowl rings. Gonzalez has three playoff games, all losses. Sharpe has been part of 12 postseason victories.

Also, how many Super Bowls did Carter help his teams to? Not only did he help the Broncos win two, he also helped the Ravens win one as well, even though the Ravens were a defensive team.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9

by weazel on Jan 30, 2009 7:52 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Have a good weekend, guys!

Let’s hope we’re all proven wrong and Shannon gets his well-deserved honor!

=)

by tunga77 on Jan 30, 2009 5:22 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Shannon

should be in on the first ballot. Period!!! He deserves to be in more right now than Andre Reed, and maybe even Cris Carter. This is ridiculous, and it is why Bronco fans rip on the MSM. If they don’t vote him in today, they should resign their voting privileges. I think that Jim Kelly said that the HOF voting is a joke and needs to be changed, and here is another example.

by PABroncofan on Jan 31, 2009 5:32 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

i dont see the point of 1st ballot HOFers

if they were good enough they should be in it shouldnt matter how many other people go in that year just if they were good enough let them in.

by robbo650 on Jan 31, 2009 9:11 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Did’nt Bruce Smith get busted for cocaine poss?

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Feb 1, 2009 1:44 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

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