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Kubiak's Departure Sealed Our Fate

I think Shanahan is a Top 5 coach in the NFL and it may have been his duties as Head of Football Operations that dropped his coaching ability down several notches.  In the past, he was saved by one Gary Kubiak who had the foresight to see how untenable the situation was becoming in Denver when he left in 2005; almost prophetically seeing the eventual demise of the Denver Broncos. 

Or perhaps more likely, Gary Kubiak's departure actually caused the wheels to fly off this team which led to the eventual dismissal of Mike Shanahan.  I think Kubiak may have been Shanny's butt saving assistant all those years.  Being just a head coach is one of the most demanding jobs on Earth, yet being head coach as well as GM could easily be impossible.  Kubiak made it possible for a decade, but when he left Shanny no longer had anyone he could really rely on.  Not only that, he began to pay for past mistakes in the draft and free agency. 

For what it's worth, Shanny is a top notch coach and he will be successful wherever he goes.  Hopefully he will be able to just concentrate on coaching so that his naysayers will realize just how good of a coach he really is.  I would even say he would make an excellent GM, if that was his only job.  Trying to be both head coach and GM is too much for any man, even Mike Shanahan.  The Mastermind will be back and hopefully we won't have to see much of him in the future.  We all know how he handled the Raiders all these years....

As for the future, I think Pat Bowlen has his man already and moving Raheem Morris' interview up two days only reinforces that belief.  I expect an announcement the day after the Morris interview - that will satisfy the Rooney Rule - and a new era can begin in Denver.  You can call Bowlen many things, but once he thinks he has his man he doesn't change his mind.  Many might even see this "interview" with Morris as a lip service tribute to the Rooney Rule, but really it's just Bowlen doing what is necessary to hire the guy he wants to hire.  NFL owners do not have the freedom to be racist anymore, the business is too competitive for petty things such as that.

Poll
Is Gary Kubiak's departure at least somewhat responsible for the fall of the Denver Broncos franchise? (.500 is a FALL for this proud organization)
Yes
219 votes
No
96 votes

315 votes | Poll has closed

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

2 recs  |  Comment 70 comments |

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I feel I need to elaborate.

Though I feel Bowlen has his man already…the more I learn about Morris the more I would be happy with him coming over to our side. Initially, I thought the scheme he uses was incompatible with this team, but who knows really. I would be more okay with Morris getting the job than McDaniel. I’m just hoping Bowlen has a real secretive curve ball he is about to throw at us. Like a wig, fake mustache, and a secret meeting with someone. ;-)

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 3:19 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

(shivers) uhh, please God no.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 4:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I for one was very disappointed when Kubes left.

Some bad timing with the firing of Shanny. If Kubes doesn’t get into the playoffs next season, I can see the Texans letting him go. Too bad that didn’t happen this year so we could pick him up!

Thanks to Mike Shanahan, a great coach who will be dearly missed.

Since we have to hire someone, please get a defensive coach Mr. Bowlen.
Hillis for starter next year. He wears special thigh pads so his solid brass balls don't give him repeated thigh contusions.

by 53guys on Jan 5, 2009 3:42 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Zappa

I think his loss was great. Not only him but the staff of Broncos he took with him to Houston.

Good Post and Rec’d!

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 5, 2009 4:06 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Gracias.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 4:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if it was Kubiak leaving that did it in

I think it was a combination of horrendous drafts from 1999-04, bad free agent signings (prior and after Kubiak left), and a lack of continuity on the defensive side of the ball, I also think that since Shanahan seemed to get rid of anyone who even had any disagreement with him, that Bowlen saw the atmosphere at Dove Valley becoming very caustic. I agree Kubiak leaving didn’t help matters, I really think the bigger losses were Troy Calhoun, Rick Smith (pro player personnel dvelopment) and Tim Brewster as far as coaching. We had Mike Hermindinger in here, but Shanahan couldn’t give up control and he left to the Titans and look where they are now. So I think he could of easily had that right hand man, but I think he couldn’t get over the trust aspect, I think most of that stems from the Oakland days and Reeeves/Elway debacle.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Jan 5, 2009 4:06 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

You are absolutely spot on...

The drafts were awful. One thing I think too is Shanahan always banked on the fact that he could run the ball and control football games. Cutler’s talent got Shanahan away from focusing and valuing the running game. When has Shanahan ever thrown the ball 2nd most in the league? He shopped at the undrafted RB store too much.

He was a real successful coach but shopping at thrift stores for talent positions finally caught up with him. That and he has not a clue how to build a defense.

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 5, 2009 4:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

I loved Kubes as a player and a coach, but it was the personnel side that doomed Shanny. I don’t know if it’s coincidence, but the slide seemd to coincide with Beake leaving. The veterans from the SB teams retired and the Broncos failed to draft adequate replacements once Beake left. Before Beake – Trevor Pryce, Montae Reagor, Bertrand Berry, Al Wilson, Reggie Hayward, Ian Gold; after he left Jeremy LeSueur, Jeff Shoate, Terry Pierce. We had a few finds, DJ and Darrent Williams, but way too many misses.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 5, 2009 4:32 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Good point about Beake

I also thought when we loss Jack Elway, that had an effect, he was responsible for getting Romo, Williams, Schlearth, Neil, Taylor, and the likes as free agents, he was an underated talent evaluator. I think people just saw him as a way to please John, but talk to the vets of that team (Super Bowl teams) and they will tell you Jack Elway had a huge influence on how that team was put together.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Jan 5, 2009 4:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

also Alex Gibbs

Thet’s where I think it actually Began.

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 2:58 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I can find no fault with your points.

In fact, I agree with you completely…I still feel Kubiak was a big part of what kept things going successfully for so long. My only fear is that Shanny takes a job with San Diego at the end of next season and sticks it to both us and the faders for the next decade. lol Remember, what 21-7 against the faders over his career in Denver?

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 4:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I really hope he doesn't land in the AFC period

One would have to thing he is going to hold out for the Dallas job. He could trade away all the big name Olineman that don’t fit his scheme, with Barber, Jones and Choice!! Shanny would have a field day, toss in Whitten and R. Williams with Romo and he basically has a team ready for a ring, they just need Shanny to come in and do what Wade Philips couldn’t….again!

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 5, 2009 5:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Classic!

That would be terribly ironic. I can’t help but feel sorry for ole Wade. He has a career winning percentage well about .500, but he has never won a playoff game as a head coach.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 5:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

How did Heimerdinger help the Titans offense?

From what I could see, the Titans had a great D and a caretaker offense. Nothing wrong with that type of an offense, but I am not sure what impact Heimerdinger had on the overall success of Tennessee.

I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.

by Arctic Bronco on Jan 5, 2009 8:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 10:44 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, taking a backup QB and making the the offense hum was what I saw

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman

by Broncoman on Jan 6, 2009 1:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but.....the backup QB was better than the starter. VY needs a lot of work on reading defenses

improving his accuracy and not throwing the ball to the open men on the other team. Cutler is the exception, most young QBs need lots of practice before they can beat a NFL defense.

I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.

by Arctic Bronco on Jan 6, 2009 10:21 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think Kubes

running the offense had much to do with the other side of the ball. Granted he help make Plummer a pro bowl QB, but it the decline in Denver had more to do with the defense and lack of depth in the drafts from 2001-05. When there are new d-ccords in 2006-07-08 that takes away continuity. But the biggest factor in Denver being 24-24 in the past 3 years was the lack of depth on the defensive side. Its nice to think Kubiak was a positive influence, but it is a stretch to think he is the reason Denver has been .500 for the past 3 seasons. Cuz if I am not mistaken Denver started 7-2 in 2006. Then Shanny knew Denver was not going to do anything in the playoffs that season with Plummer, switched QB’s. The major shift in the fortunes was the injury to Al Wilson against Seattle that season. Denver has not been able to replace him, plus with Bates trying to revamp the defense which didnt work.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 5, 2009 4:09 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe also a lack of scoring in the red zone...which has been a problem since Week 1 of 2006.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 4:48 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

points vs yards (with Kubiak and after Kubiak)

I cannot get a table to format well in comments, but if you look at where Denver ranked in yards of offense and where they ranked in points scored you can get a crude look at how efficient the offense was at scoring.

Year Yds Pts Diff (*=playoffs, %=Super Bowl)

1995 3 9 (-6)
1996 1 4 (-3) *
1997 1 1 (0) %
1998 3 2 (1) %
1999 14 18 (-4)
2000 2 2 (0) *
2001 22 10 (12)
2002 3 7 (-4)
2003 7 10 (-3) *
2004 5 9 (-4) *
2005 5 7 (-2) *

2006 21 17 (4)
2007 11 21 (-10)
2008 2 16 (-14)

Those double digit differences from 2007 and 2008 really jump out at you.and need to be improved/

by MattR on Jan 5, 2009 5:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Ouch! I really didn't know it was that bad.

I felt there was a difference, but I really had no idea how stark the difference was.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 5:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

true

But in the past 2 seasons the defense has allowed 400 points in each season, that isnt due to Kubiak leaving.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 5, 2009 5:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but how many games could we have won in spite of our poor defensive play if we were scoring as much as our yards say we should.

I agree with you about the defense…it is horrible and is responsible for most of our woes, but we can’t give the lack of scoring in the red zone a free pass either.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 5:24 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

But

When your defense is allowing 25 and 28 ppg, it puts undue pressure on the offense to score everytime it has the ball. I am not totally discounting what you are saying about the RZ, but when the defense is giving up that many points its amazing to me the Broncos are 16-16 the past 2 seasons. Also, I feel if the running game returns to prominance again this will be corrected

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 5, 2009 5:27 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i would

be much happier with a better scoring defense first, but yes I agree. Not too mention that they cut down on the turnovers

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 5, 2009 5:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

turnovers

You said the magic word. We should be looking a more than defense and offense. Turnovers rank up there with both. And the STs should be part of the discussion, as in ‘hidden’ yardage.

by Colinski on Jan 5, 2009 5:59 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Are we starting a laundry list here? lol

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 6:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we agree overall.

I just felt moved to look at Kubiak’s departure as one of the causes of the mess we are now in. Defense notwithstanding. ;-)

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 5:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

btw

I live in nasty city and those morons were fools when they beat denver. The police closed down Highland Ave (goes east and west) cuz those assclowns were honking their horns and cruising. You would have thought SD won the SB. I so want Pitt to kick SD ’s backside this weekend

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 5, 2009 6:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I was at the Bronco bar up in Solana Beach for the game.

It sucked. I have some pictures from that night…I may share soon.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 6:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I was there as well.

I didn’t realize it until I saw your avy when I got home. Weren’t you the guy outside wearing the Elway throwback jersey?

Not a fun night at all and it just pissed me off that we just gave them the division.

GO STEELERS!

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9

by weazel on Jan 5, 2009 7:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. That was me.

I was with all the Charger apparel wearing family….along with my wife and daughter. :)

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 10:45 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought so.

I was the guy wearing the Cutler home jersey you were talking to outside.

Did your family give you a hard time all week?

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9

by weazel on Jan 6, 2009 6:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really. A few of them called last weekend to gloat about the Chargers beating the Colts though.

I was ready to go home at half time though….I knew I should have driven my own damn car. My dad is 18 years sober, so I should have just gotten drunk off my ass just to annoy him. lol It was good to meet you.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 7, 2009 11:40 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The O

scored under 20 points 7 times, 25points and under 11 times. that leaves 30 or more just 5 times this year. Not as explosive as most think.

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 3:04 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

30 turnovers, countless 3&OUTS, and to control the TIME OF POSSESSION just three times out of 16 is truely sub par.

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 3:07 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

red zone

That was one of my impressions, besides the others mentioned here. Losing Kubiak’s play calling skills affected the offense, and it was more a case of losing efficiency (as in RZ efficiency) than total yards.

The offense revived but Kubiak’s loss was a major one, and I said so at the time.

The statistic that illustrates our problems lately is the difference between total yards and points. Some of this isn’t related to Kubiak, and we’ve also made improvements on the offense from last year’s miserable red zone numbers, but Cutler needs to learn the lesson that took Elway years to learn — don’t force it, because mistakes kill you.

This also raises another issue — the assumption that the new coach should be defensive-minded ignores continuing problems on offense. People should spend less time reading yardage statistics and more time reading points scored. They tell very different stories. I’m not saying we shouldn’t focus on rebuilding the defense; I’m saying that the idea that we’re superior on offense should be re-examined.

Here’s the NFL.com’s numbers: we were #2 in yardage but #16 in points.

by Colinski on Jan 5, 2009 5:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I really wish Kubiak could have taken over the reigns in Denver.

Someone(probably Guru) here once asked what was the most important rookie we got through the 1983 draft. The obvious answer was John Elway, but in reality Gary Kubiak had the biggest impact on this football team over the last 25 years. From the bad field goal snap that nearly blew an Elway comeback in the 1992 AFC Divisional playoff game against Houston to the play calling in Super Bowl 32 to the bringing the best out of Jake Plummer to help lead the Broncos to a 13-3 record in 2005. In reality, Gary Kubiak is the only coach I consider worthy enough to take over for Mike Shanahan. I won’t get my wish, but it is how I feel.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 5, 2009 5:42 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

good call, Ski

Jim Goodman for Broncos GM!

by Emmett Smith on Jan 5, 2009 10:59 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with ya on that one

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 3:09 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Lack of scoring in the red zone over the recent years is due to a....

lack of running game. It all comes back to the run!! The throwing lanes are awful tight in the Red Zone..hmm does Jay throw many picks near the goal line!

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 5, 2009 5:45 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

undoubtedly

Comparisons between Elway in his early years and Cutler are apt, though, and Kubiak influenced Elway’s development. The improvement that was most noticeable about Elway was his elimination of risky passes.

It’s clear that Elway had more weapons late in his career, particularly T. D., but that offense was far more efficient, too, as MattR’s post above with team offensive statistics shows. It wasn’t merely a productive offense, it was an offense that scored without as many high-risk passes, which were a hallmark of Elway’s early years.

Cutler needs the help that Elway enjoyed, but he also needs to learn the same lesson that Elway learned.

The short passing game improved this year but it still has a way to go, and that should help the offense’s efficiency. Moreover, the emphasis on YAC has led to many turnovers. I expect the new HC & staff will re-emphasize the importance of ball security.
We need a different mindset on offense, besides the improvement of the running game.

by Colinski on Jan 6, 2009 9:52 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Would Elway

be someone to bring in to help Jay out since Kubiak isn’t available this year?

Jay doesn’t seem to be as much under John’s shadow (though he has done his best to pull himself back under it with his comments about arm strength), but doing something like this would probably bring more comparisons, which Jay doesn’t need right now.

I’m torn. I think it would be good for Jay to learn from a hof QB that started as a strong armed, I can throw the ball anywhere, anytime QB and then matured into a more effective QB by using his brain as much as his arm.

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 6, 2009 10:27 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 3:00 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

RIGHT ON!!!!!

Notice that we began winning again when we got Hillis running the ball in the red zone. That and then him bringing back THE MILE HIGH SALUTE!!!

by newby on Jan 5, 2009 6:29 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Hillis

should be kept as the power back.

My 2009 cuts/trades/etc: Prater, Hall, Young, McCree, Maneul, T. Bell, B. Bailey, C. Bailey, Slowik, Englenberger, Winborn, Pittman, Ramsey, Webster. (Subject to Update)

by broncodude793 on Jan 5, 2009 7:18 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

You could write a book...

…about the many reasons why the Broncos are where they are. I’d place poor drafts (with two or three exceptions) and too many free agent busts at the top but those are on Shanahan. I think Kubiak leaving was a big contributor but just one of many nails in the coffin.

I have confidence Bowlen knows who he wants and will make the right choice. He seems like a man on a mission to get this thing right and I am positive there’s no one more tired of the Broncos’ recent mediocrity as Pat Bowlen.

Let’s keep our fingers crossed, Nation.

by TheMastermind on Jan 5, 2009 7:48 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I can't argue with that.

I still feel as if the nails were driven in far more frequently after Kub’s left. I think he really saved Shanny a lot of time on his HC duties and when Shanny tried to have the same relationship with Jim Bates or Jeremy Bates or Rick Dennison that it didn’t work out because none of those guys had what Kubiak had. There is a reason why Kubiak is an NFL Head Coach and those other guys are not.

I only hope this all works out for the best. I want to see Super Bowls in the near future.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 10:48 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Kubiak leaving really didn't help any.

I think after he left things started going south. While the bad drafts year in and year out really didn’t help any, Kubiak was still able to get the offense rolling and into the playoffs…..too bad we only have one playoff win to show for it.

TImes and teams change so now is the time for a new Broncos team to emerge. Like most of you said, I too think Bowlen knows what he wants and will go after it.. I would like a HC who knows defense since that is our BIG weakness, but regardless of who is our new HC, I just want him to get this team to be more balanced and consistent on both sides of the ball.

"It doesn't dissipate" ~ Mike Shanahan

Cutler's 4th qtr/OT game winning drives: 9

by weazel on Jan 5, 2009 8:00 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Red Zone Picks

The difference between being a mediocre scoring offense and a league leader is red zone picks. Five RZ picks is 35 points, or 2.2 ppg. The biggest contribution of Kubes was that he got John to cut down on RZ picks and got Plummer to cut down on them. When he left Plummer went back to his old ways.

by SlowWhiteGuy on Jan 5, 2009 8:17 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Plummer's best season in Denver was 2005, 13-3 record

It was also the year that Denver almost had (2) 1000 yard rushers, we were over the 2500 yard mark as a team. The following year 2006 we rushed for 2152, in 07’ we rushed for 1957 and this season, albeit an injury marred year 1862. Each year the defensive rank goes down as the rushing total goes down.

Denver’s best year defensively speaking was a tie in 03 – 04, in 03 Portis rushed for over 1500 and Denver as a team was over 2600 yards and they ranked 4th the same ranking they had in 04’ Champs first year. Since 05 – 08, on defense we have been 15th, 14th, 19th and finally 29th. The trend is obvious, in 05 our 15th ranking is skewed by the fact that Denver had given up the 3rd fewest points in the league.

Red Zone turnovers happen if you can’t pound it in. Games that could be won are lost due to the fact that you can’t run the ball and chew up clock…

We all need to remember that even Elway, by far the greatest ever, couldn’t win a ring without a dominate running game.

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 5, 2009 8:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

can't and don't call the play's are two different things

Tactics without Strategy is the noise you hear before Defeat!

by monodono on Jan 6, 2009 3:12 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Kubes is kewl!

I am really happy about his success at Houston and am always glad to see former Broncos play for the Texans. It is also nice to see the one-cut zone block offense used successfully by another team.

I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.

by Arctic Bronco on Jan 5, 2009 8:23 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Kubiak best suited to succeed Shanahan

I agree with Zappa – Kubes is, in my opinion, the best person to succeed Mike Shanahan – but he is not available at this time. I hope that the Broncos brass hires someone who will attack, attack, attack on defense, offense and special teams. Football is a little like war – you succeed by attacking and keeping the other side off balance.
This is my first post. I have enjoyed reading many well thought-out posts. Thank you.

by Blackknigh on Jan 5, 2009 11:51 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

My favorite Kubiak quote was from Super Bowl 32 when he and Shanny and Elway were discussing what should be done at the end of the game:

Kubiak said, “We got to score a touchdown.” none of this running out the clock crap. lol Classic. Loved that quote. It made him look smarter than the other two guys(Shanny and Elway).

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 10:58 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting but...

…I’m inclined to disagree. In the press conference, Bowlen professed that he did not know if he would have let Shanny go if the team had made it to the playoffs. In an interview that Schefter did with Shanny, Shanny said he believed that if the team had made it to the playoffs he would not have been fired which I think we all agree is probably a true statement.

But where I disagree with you is that specifically Kubiak, or the lack thereof, had anything to do with the demise of the Broncos. One can argue that Kubiak has been effectively replaced by Bates as far as offensive duties allowing Shanny to focus on Head Coaching duties and GM duties rather than offense, HC, and GM.

I do agree that I think in today’s football there needs to be separate and established roles with separate people manning each post. I do not think that we should have a HC / GM combination again.

There is no 'Ctrl' button on Chuck Norris's computer. Chuck Norris is always in control.
Chuck Norris destoryed the periodic table because he only recognizes the element of surprise.

by nickt84 on Jan 6, 2009 7:31 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

With Shanny, Holmgren and Parcells out

do you think the league will ever see the HC/GM again?

"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game

"tough times don't last, tough people do" - Mike "The Mastermind" Shanahan

by DesertBroncoFan on Jan 6, 2009 8:57 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

no

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 6, 2009 10:36 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Bates has been successful in duplicating the yardage output, but what about scoring and red zone offense?

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 10:59 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

let's try again

I think that Kubiak was a big part of the success that Shanny had in Denver, not only with the offense but with talent evaluation. With Kubiak being around Shanny with Denver and San Francisco, he knew what Shanny was looking for and was able to help make those decisions with him, but when he left, yes there were others that came in and took the OC job and did well, but none like Kub since he knew exactly what Shanny was trying to accomplish. Without the upper folks that Kub took with him to Houston, if you look, they are not hurting finding good prospects, even Mario who most thought was crazy to take instead of Bush, but look how that turned out, great pick! Anyway, Shanny always did have a great eye for offensive talent, but the rest were guesses on his part, and the DC that were brought in did not necessarily have the right people in place for their system, because Shanny always went with quick defensive people, not the ones that might have filled the gaps better, it was always get the fast guy so he can run to the gap and make the stop, the problem with that is the guys leave their gaps to cover the other gap and bam there is the big play breaking on the other side of the field. Kubiak not only helped Shanny, but he also helped make Elway a better player, who in their right mind would have guessed that Elway’s back up would eventually become his QB coach, then OC. He had the best of both worlds, got to play in the NFL, but not enough to get hurt, and then when playing time was done, gets to play coach to one of the best QB in history. Kubiak would have been a great HC for Denver, but the problem with that is we would be the same as with Shanny, same concept, but Kubiak would not have all that power and we would have been able to get better defensive players since Kubiak would have other people helping make personnel moves. I also believe the defense was not the biggest blame for the 3 bad seasons that the Broncs have had, I am still waiting to see the special teams play like they are pros not high school players. I think that the special teams play has been the starting point to the downfall of the Broncos.

by Bronco Ken on Jan 6, 2009 10:39 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Welcome to MHR

Great comment. I think we generally agree here. The camaraderie between Shanny and Kubiak is what made them so effective for so many years. Shanny lost out big time when Kubiak moved on and it showed with our lower offensive production and the more “trick” or “gimmick” plays called and just general mediocrity. Yes the defense and special teams collapsed as well, but the loss of Kubiak removed Shanny’s ability to mask our defensive woes with strong offensive play.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 11:03 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

On the Mario pick

That wasnt Kubiaks pick, that was Charlie Casserlys’s pick. Who was fired/let go (however you wanna say it) after that pick.
I just cant buy into all this love for Kubiak. He is a great offensive mind, but his defense in houston has been no better than Denvers. He just fired his DC. Rick Smith is running the show in Houston, yes he had a great relationship with Kubes but he is the one runninng show there in Houston. McNair is not gonna be as patient as Bowlen with Kubiak.
The bottom line with Denver is the defense, ST’s, and turnovers. Plummer was a pick machine, except for 2005, Griese was inconsistent at best. There is a common thread with what has happened to the Broncos and it is the lack of talent on defense. Sundquist wasnt that good, and Shanny ended up being the final say. But since the Goodmans came into the fold the talent that has been drafted has improved. I see that continuing. I just wish Bowlen would have given Mike one more season.

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 6, 2009 12:25 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

one more

I think Bowlen would have let Mike stay, but I don’t think he wanted to let Mike keep all that power of bringing in and letting go talent. With the 5 minute meeting that happened, I don’t think that Bowlen even mentioned to Mike the possiblitly of staying on as just a HC, because he knew that Mike would not go for that since that was one of the things that Mike really wanted when he became the coach. He learned a lesson from Al Davis in that aspect and I think he really liked the power to be the man with all the decisions, but it eventually caught up with him.
As for the turnovers, yes they had a big part of the demise this season but most of the interceptions that Jay had were because he was throwing 40-50 times a game and he has so much confidence in his “stronger than Elway’s arm” that he to was just like Elway in the fact that he thinks he can put the ball anywhere he wants. He is still really young and in a couple more years when he realizes that arm strength is not the only part of being a successfull QB in the NFL, but more of control of the ball, he will turn out to be a very successful QB in this league. He was the same way in college, but there he was going up against strong SEC defenses and he was pretty much the only hope Vandy had.

by Bronco Ken on Jan 6, 2009 2:32 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i dont think

Mike could have stayed losing his power. I think in firing GM Shanny, coach Shanny had to go.
I think you are saying, and I agree, that in the past 2 seasons the dominate running game has disappeared so Denver has had to pass more. Denver needs to have at the least a 50/50 split between run and pass. The future is bright, and I want to see the defense to get to be the middle of the pack and the offense stay in the top 5 and top5 in scoring

somethings wrong, Trying to conquer these fears i thought were gone. And it's been so long, I'm dying to live in a world i don't belong

by broncfanstuckinsd on Jan 6, 2009 8:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Was it hard? "It hurts. But tough times don’t last — tough people do. That’s life." - Mike Shanahan

by Steve O' on Jan 6, 2009 8:56 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...apparently I was wrong about the Rooney Rule

Which is probably good, since I wasn’t hot on the prospect of McDaniel becoming our next HC. Although, I’d like to see SOMEONE get hired already. I wish to move on to more important things…like finding out everything I can about our now coaches style of coaching and playcalling and all that hub bub.

This is my GAP, there are many like it but this one is mine. Without my GAP I am useless, without me, they will run through my GAP. I will protect my GAP and have my brothers back on his. I will not be moved from my GAP, I am a crazed dog that patrols this area and will defeat all who entire it. I own this GAP, it is mine. I bought it with blood and sweat. I will not be pushed. I will not be moved. This Sunday I will make a stand and a statement.

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2009 11:57 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

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