Broncos Thoughts & Musings - Chargers Week
by Emmett Smith on Oct 15, 2009 11:30 AM MDT
in 2009 Game Previews
133 comments
Out with the Old News
Many congratulations to the Broncos on a come-from-behind-win over the New England Patriots! Following the game, Josh McDaniels issued as close to a retraction as he could get, admitting that when he claimed that it was just another game, "I lied." His understatement was closely followed by Kyle Orton's post-game comment, "I feel like I played well." Don't get all worked up for us, now, Kyle. I love these guys.
I covered a lot of subjects on Sunday night's post and I'm not gong to get redundant. There were a few little things that seemed to matter, though. Points in the 2nd half for NE - 0. Third down conversions in the 2nd half for NE - 0. Chances of winning if you don't score - 0. That's the kind of numbers that leave me SunnySiding. So, let's get started by breaking down some of last week's game and then preparing for San Diego.
Taking the Gloves Off
One of the keys to the New England game was the skill and leadership of Kyle Orton. Kyle has been a heck of a QB for Denver. I had believed all season that the glove (and, in its days, the splint) was more of a problem than he ever let on. At first, unwilling to accept excuses, he claimed that it wasn't. After Week 3 he admitted that it was "sometimes". Without it, in Week 5, he became the kind of QB that you want to have leading your team. His intellect and calm have been inspirational, but his performance over the past week has shown just how much of a hindrance it was. His accuracy went up a notch.
Said Eddie Royal after Sunday's win, "He was the leader that we needed today."
Josh McDaniels, who is usually effusive with criticisms said, "I don’t know if he missed a read all day." Now, tell me again how the QB's arm strength is the only thing that matters. Take your time. I'll be here. Orton's intellect is as strong a weapon as any long pass.
The most astounding stat I could find says that Orton has a 4th-quarter QB rating of 138.7. That's 138.7 for those who weren't counting. Anything I could add would be a waste of words. That says it all. Welcome to Denver, Kyle. I hope that it's a long and healthy stay. Congratulations to him on being the AFC Player of the Week, too. By the way, if you look at Orton's QB rating from the 2nd half of all games, it's 114.2 - which is still pretty stellar (Peyton Manning's from the 2nd half of games is 110.3). And, this was his first game sans impediment (glove or splint) and he completed 72.9% of his passes. He has now completed just over 63% of his passes for the season and it's climbing quickly. His percentage of passes intercepted is 0.6%, tied for first in the league. These are 'franchise QB' kinds of numbers. It's still a strange term, since it has no clear definition, but if the meaning is a player that you're in trouble without, Orton is one.
John Elway has had some things to say about Orton. Recently he had gone on record as believing that as Orton gets comfortable in the system, he's just going to get better. This is what Elway had to say after Sunday's game, from cbs4denver.com:
"He just keeps going to the right guys, putting the ball on the money, and doing the right things, which wins football games," Elways said. "He outplayed Brady yesterday in (Brady's) system and was just doing some great, great things."
Every time I read a so-called analysis of quarterbacks, I read about arm strength, accuracy, mobility and physical strength. Just to be clear -- I consider all of those to be important in degree. But somehow I never read about the things that Josh McDaniels likes to talk about. Coach McD has forgotten more about quarterbacking then most of the 'analysts' ever learned. He talks about these: running the huddle, reading the defense, changing the plays, outwitting the defense, not making mistakes, staying calm, never giving up and showing leadership.
Those are the things that Kyle Orton does very, very well. That's why the folks who try to spreadsheet quarterbacks, those who are fascinated by stats and those who just look at a TV view of the plays, no matter how often or for how long, sometimes don't like Orton despite his incredible, steady and measurable improvement. The things that he does, the things that Josh McDaniels chose him for specifically, don't always show up in the stat sheets. You can't see all of them on TV. but the guys who do them and do them well tend to be winners. And that's something about Orton that no one can really argue against. When he plays, teams usually win. That's what you hire your quarterback to do. Heck, that's all you hire him to do.
According to denverbroncos.com, his 26-12 (.684) record as a starter ranks third in the NFL among active quarterbacks. All of the other arguments are vaporware.
Perhaps the thing that is most worth talking about is this: Josh McDaniels is turning Kyle Orton into the quarterback that he always could have been but never truly was. The folks who don't think that a great offensive coach with a lot of talent and knowledge at training quarterbacks can make a huge difference haven't studied history, which is rife with examples from Joe Montana to Steve Young to Kurt Warner. I honestly don't believe that we are close to finding out how good Orton is. It will take at least a year or so to completely be able to manifest the full playbook and even then he will continue to make improvements for quite a while to come. The continued improvement that Kyle has shown and is showing is simply a continuation of a pattern that has held true throughout his college and professional career. He's so surprisingly young, at only 26, that expecting that he will not continue to get better is a hypothesis without evidence, support or or logic. How far he will rise is the only question I still have. If this is only the start, the future is bright indeed.
So, go ahead. Marinate in that one for a while. Let it soak in. You'll be happier when you have.
The Coaches Corner (Courtesy of the Broncos PR Staff)
Please take a moment to read through this quote from Josh McDaniels. It explains something that we all need to be clear on moving forward.
On what allowed WR Eddie Royal and TE Tony Scheffler to have better numbers vs. New England than in previous games (my bold and italics for emphasis)...
"I don't think we have changed really anything that we do. That is the nice thing about what we try to do offensively is we haven't moved our players around and put them in one spot to get ‘that guy' the ball. We have great trust in-if (WR Jabar) Gaffney is playing the X (receiver) - they played a coverage that told us to throw to the X yesterday, and we threw it to him on third-and-three and he converts for a first down. Eddie is the X late in the game, (and) he gets a slant for a first down. (WR) Brandon (Marshall) is the X down there in the red zone, (and) they tell us to throw to Brandon. He is open. He scores. They let Tony have some space yesterday, and Kyle read the play out the right way and went the right place with the ball. When our offense is running really well, you will see a lot of different people touch the ball. It won't just be one guy here, one guy there. Yesterday, obviously, we threw it more so there were more opportunities. I think the guys kind of felt good because the ball kept going somewhere new, but it wasn't because we were calling plays to try to stuff it in there to Tony or stuff it in there to Brandon or Eddie or Jabar. They told us to go there with the defense. Kyle read the play the right way and threw it to the open guy. The good thing is we have people that can get open. When they cover four of us and the other guy is open because he did a nice job against single-coverage and we read the defense the right way, that is how a productive pass offense works. I think our guys really understand that now and are really into it. It was fun to see."
Now think about the italics. Whatever the defense tells him to do, that's what he does. If they take away one thing, he sees that as a chance to do something else. He doesn't go into with only a single, set strategy. His coaching approach is fluid and much like water; you can't really contain it. Grasp it and it disappears; strike at it and it envelopes you. That's the essence of the more modern version of 'Hit them where they ain't'. It's also how the great general Sun Tzu became famous, centuries ago.
By the way - Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War) also pointed out that in any protracted war, the side that held the moral high ground would inevitably win. This year, that's been the Broncos, where character truly matters. That's how you keep your poise, hold the line defensively, and score on offense.
Consider this also - QB Kyle Orton said the use of the Wildcat formation was designed to get a better read on the NE defense: "It was to get them into some looks where we could tell what was going on, and it worked for the most part."
In the same vein, consider this one from NFL Fanhouse:
McDaniels said of Royal's effort against the Patriots: "It was just some of the scheme they were using. A lot of reads took us to Eddie on the weak side. That is kind of the way this offense goes. We don't force it to anybody, and they told us to throw it to Eddie Royal and he did a great job."
McDaniels specifically defines roles -- some of the Broncos are still swallowing that approach. Eddie Royal, for now, is a possession receiver. And the Broncos are unbeaten heading to San Diego next week.
This is part of the constant cat and mouse game that Josh McDaniels loves to play. I was watching this while researching the 'Divining Josh McDaniels' series that nycbroncosfan and I wrote last February. McDaniels is constantly learning your tendencies, examining your responses, establishing patterns, weaknesses and matchups in order to confound you. Mike Nolan does the same on the defensive half. Competing against both of them intellectually is a tall, tall order. The players must carry out the responsibilities they are given, it's true; but they are being gifted with all of the requirements to succeed and they know and believe it. That belief carries with it an awesome level of confidence. Small wonder that they seem so good at coming from behind. To them, the battle is never out of reach.
It's no wonder that they win late - the more examples they have to chart, understand and create options for, the stronger they will get -- every game. That should give pause to every opposing coach on the schedule. Think about it.
The Golden Squash Award
The Bronco have another winner of the Golden Squash Award for the man who has the most (or best) tackles; he looks a lot like the last one. It's D.J. Williams again, leading the team this week as he did last week and notching 8 tackles plus an assist. Congratulations, D.J.! He now has 32 tackles and 8 assists, a sack, a forced fumble, a fumble recovery, 4 passes defensed. His best performance came in 2007 when he had 106 tackles plus 35 assists, 1.0 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 2 recovered, and INT and 5 passes defensed. He may well eclipse that record this season.
Right behind him was a surprise player who has been stepping up as he's needed. It's Jack Williams, with 8 solo tackles. Congratulation to the young man who is moving up in the game. Third was Brian Dawkins, with another 7. Andra Davis dropped to only 3 tackles, the same as Kenny Peterson, Vonnie Holliday, Darcel McBath and Robert Ayers. Ayers had a good game, by the way, but all of them did. After the first quarter, they were a wall. Nice going, guys.
Marshalling the Troops
A great stat unearthed by Lindsay Jones at the Denver Post:
Brandon Marshall — 2008: 104 catches, 1,265 yards, 6 touchdowns; Sunday: 8 catches, 64 yards, 2 touchdowns; 2009 Season: 24 catches, 283 yards, 4 touchdowns.
This really is the year in brief. Last season, the Broncos piled up the yards and didn't score. Brandon's numbers were indicative of that. This year he only has 24 catches for 283 yards but he's already scored 4 TDs as opposed to 6 for all of last season. He's probably not going to get the same numbers with yards and catches, but he'll probably score a lot more points. Seriously -- which would you rather have?
Brandon Stokley didn't have a catch this past week, but the same principle showed up -- if you cover him tightly, you're going to leave someone else open. Since each of our RBs can catch as well as block and carry the squash, covering the Broncos offense on passing downs becomes more than a bit problematic.
Taking Care of Business and Reworking Overtime
Count me as one of those who believes that overtime is just fine the way it is. One of the keys to winning in the NFL is having good play by all three phases of the game - offense, defense and special teams. If you lost the coin toss, your defense needs to step it up. If you win, your offense needs to punch it in and/or your ST needs to make a play to score some points. In any case - just be willing to accept that your whole team is on the line in overtime. Like anyone else, I'll revisit this if it costs the Broncos a game, but in general, I'm not into making huge changes in the way games are played -- and this would be a huge change - unless there's some reason that involves player safety.
Final Thought:
This is the first year in a long time when 'parity' meant that so many teams aren't good. I know that wasn't the intent, but that's been the outcome. This year, the concept has grown closer to 'despair-ity'.
Interesting thing -- we're seeing teams like Detroit, the Rams and the Chiefs stuck on the draft-day treadmill, running in circles like hamsters in their wheels and getting just as far. I used to think that a lot of that was the draft setup - the cost of those high picks, after more than two years, is exorbitant and seems to actually have the opposite effect of what was intended. I still believe that we need a rookie cap and a better draft salary structure.
But, one of the outcomes of Josh McDaniels/Brian Xanders work this past offseason has been to remind me that I'm occasionally very stupid. No one has forced these teams to refuse to trade down for more picks in better slots. There's always someone who desperately wants a high pick, usually for a 'franchise' QB. You don't have to overpay for players who aren't exactly what your team needs. If you've got a serviceable QB (and just for fun, try getting him excellent coaching and tailoring your offense to his strengths) and a pretty good left tackle, mostly you're better off using the leverage to fulfill your list of roster needs rather than adding one or two high-cost players.
Even more so - I think that the McD/Xanders experience reminded me of how well you can rebuild a roster in a short period of time. Yes, I would agree that having an O-line like ours was a huge advantage. We had some good WRs, too, and a few good players here and there. But over and over, the Broncos showed us how to pick your free agents, how to design the offense and defense to work with the players that you have and how much coaching really wins games. The players have to execute, but the coaches have to give them something to execute and get them excited about the program. If - or, I really should say, when - the Broncos continue in their winning ways, Josh McDaniels should be a lock for Coach of the Year, preferably awarded with a gold-plated scroll listing all the folks who cursed his name and laughed in his face about what a crap job he was doing, signed by the offenders underneath a blanket engraved apology. I'm gratified by the number of folks who have apologized.
But far more than that - it's all about winning. A truly bright coach with a talent for winning can turn a franchise around in 1or 2 seasons. Parcells did it (again) in Miami and McDaniels has done it in Denver, to mention a couple of obvious and recent examples. The real problem that bad franchises tend to have is that they seem to believe that just a couple of players and a new head coach will magically solve their problems, a failing that is also fatal to a lot of franchises who are several players away from a good playoff run but think that they only need 1 or 2. We, as Broncos fans, have been there.
Winning also involves being willing to look at the bigger picture. Are you getting the right players and structuring the contracts to keep a strong squad, even if you've been successful the year before? That was what Bill Belichick did in New England that was the most impressive. It wasn't just winning, it was keeping on winning, being a franchise that has a shot at the Lombardi, year after year. And let's face it - Josh McDaniels won't be satisfied until he's accomplished that. He'll do whatever that takes, adding a few players or a lot, just as the situation demands. In that, it's not dis-similar to the situational football approach - you just keep adapting to the situation and working out solutions. It sounds easy, but it's not.
That leads us to the final point: Accepting that you need a lot of players isn't fatal - it's often the solution much more than it is the problem. But figuring out who out there in free agency will make your team better is a tough thing to do over and over. That makes what the Broncos did this spring and summer even more impressive. Congratulations to Pat Bowlen, Coaches McDaniels, McCoy and Nolan, and to all the rest of the staff as well as the players who took what they were being taught and manifested it on th field. This is truly one for the ages.
Go Broncos!
26 recs |
133 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
You've been busy this morning
Another great job, Bear. I look forward to your Thoughts and Musings columns each week. This is way better than what you can get anywhere on this interweb thingie.
Thank you so much for you thoughts. I truly am excited about this teams potential. It’s been a heck of a ride so far!
This is our team, let's have fun with it! - dmitchell624
Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.
by solace on Oct 15, 2009 11:52 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Not to nitpick, but...
it’s interwebs… plural.
Richard Seymour is a girl.
by pubkeeper on Oct 15, 2009 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Experts often posess more data than judgment: Enter Josh McDaniels
Mr. Orton looked great last week. Terrific. I must admit, even after hearing multiple sources on this site (including yourself and John Bena) preach of the hinderence Kyle’s glove had on his performance, I still underrated its negative effect.
Great post, as always. Thanks for dropping some knowledge.
Oh, I was curious, does anybody know what Orton’s rating would have been without the *interception at halftime?
by elvisalex on Oct 15, 2009 12:10 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Around 112....not too bad!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 15, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't that make it...
Something like 9 QBs with Passer ratings above 100 this season? Manning, Manning, Brees, Favre, Rothlesburger, Rogers, Ryan, and Hasselbeck would be the other 8. Not a bad group to be associated with.
by Thnikkaman on Oct 15, 2009 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it be 105.4
and his QB rating for the season would increase to 99.1.
"Horton is win." -Horvil Tiki 4/13/2009
Jedi McD is my hero.
by jack_ on Oct 15, 2009 6:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Jack
Very late that I got back to this, but thank you. I’ll Rec that. I think this thread is gonna be gone pretty quick, so can you (or anybody) send me the formula for QB Ratings? I
by elvisalex on Oct 16, 2009 5:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've also noticed
that KO hasn’t had to throw the ball away much in the past few games. In the preseason and first couple of games, he was throwing it away a lot, which I think is an indication of a smart QB who is all about protecting the ball. Lately he hasn’t had to throw it away which leads me to believe that he is becoming more confident with the system, he is making better reads, everybody is getting on the same page, and our receivers are running better routes for him. Very promising as we move into some tough games.
by BigskyBronco on Oct 15, 2009 12:14 PM MDT reply actions 10 recs
Agreed BSB...+1
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 15, 2009 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that, too
I agree that it’s definitely indicative of the offense in general getting more comfortable with the playbook, and more confident with the reads and each other. And we’re only 5 games in! Wooot!
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 15, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I hadn’t noticed it, but now that you mention it… I haven’t seen many throw-aways, either. That is also reflected in his high completion % last week. This does bode well for the offense.
by BroncosBassist on Oct 15, 2009 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw it differently
I though Orton threw it away more in the Dallas game than any other (esp in the red zone). But I was impressed because he wasn’t forcing it even though we were losing (by a manageable deficit). Dallas had pretty good coverage most of the game (hence our low point total until BM went crazy), but Orton didn’t get overly aggressive or panic. Side note, I sure am glad our D is playing as well as it has and keeping us in these games where we fall behind in the 1st half.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see
That even with a 5-0 record, good to great QB play and a team that is growing up like a healthy son you, McGeorge still cannot bring yourself to say anything nice.
Just backhanded cut downs at our QB. Yeah, you’ll say they are compliments or that you alone see the reality of the situation.
I really do not care. I am just tired of the same old vitriol spewed forth by you and the other haters. I admit there are ocassions that you do extol something intelligent and good, but for the most part it almost seems like you sit there and hope for a collapse by the Broncos so you can say “I told you so”. I hope that is not the case, but it sure seems like it.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Oct 16, 2009 2:39 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it was a backhanded remark.
Let’s go after the opponents or the media, and be cool with each other. McGeorge is making an observation, and it seems both accurate and positive to me.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 16, 2009 7:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zip
Has anyone noticed the zip on the ball when he was throwing them? Kyle has plenty of juice to do well for a long time in this system. Go Broncos. Great Post, btw. rec’d.
calBronco1
by calbronco1 on Oct 15, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you have that kind of zip and you change the trajectory
You have plenty of arm to throw the deep ball. Orton needs only to work on not throwing his deep passes so flat.
Once he fixes that, he’ll be an absolute stud QB in this system. McDaniels knew it; many of us thought it was possible. Let’s hope he keeps making progress.
After all, he’s still a young QB — and I for one would be happy were he our field general for years to come.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, he's got the deep ball
His INT was very close to 60 yards in the air. And I didn’t think it was all that flat.
"I certainly don't put myself in [Tom Brady's] class. He's probably the best quarterback to ever play this game. He's got the rings to show it. I didn't beat him. Our team beat the New England Patriots." --- Kyle Orton
by Sharpe as a Tack on Oct 15, 2009 8:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is not only Orton though
The receivers seem to be catching up and are on the same page now for the majority of time. Against NE I didn’t see one “Josh killing stare” at a receiver as he trudged back to sideline, for taking the wrong route.
They are all understanding the meaning of “Just do your job”. From watching film, understanding this week’s tweaks and plays. reading defenses, picking up blitzes.
You can’t help but love it all can you?
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on Oct 16, 2009 4:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no doubt that McDaniels will win "Coach of the Year".
At least in my book.
But figuring out who out there in free agency will make your team better is a tough thing to do over and over. That makes what the Broncos did this spring and summer even more impressive.
Kyle Orton may not win MVP but he certainly had made enough noise for people to take a second look.
by bfree2bronc on Oct 15, 2009 12:22 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
KO to the Pro Bowl?
They were commenting just briefly a couple days ago on KOA radio that it was more than a fair chance Kyle could get his first Probowl nomination.
by CompUser on Oct 15, 2009 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem will be all the big name QB's in the AFC
Peyton is a lock for one of the three Pro Bowl slots. That means Orton would have to beat out all but one of the following: Phillis Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, and Tom Brady. It’ll be tough, but I think Orton can do it.
"Horton is win." -Horvil Tiki 4/13/2009
Jedi McD is my hero.
by jack_ on Oct 15, 2009 8:09 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damn Doc...you are on FIRE! Great piece my friend!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 15, 2009 12:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
As to the Final Thoughts section of this piece
It takes a lot of guts for a young, rookie HC to come in and turnover half of the personnel that Coach McDaniels did this year. So, I’ll second that congratulations to him, those he brought in to advise and assist him, and the players who execute and have shown it to be a winning strategy.
by elvisalex on Oct 15, 2009 12:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Have you noticed that his has not improved, but declined?
Last season, the Broncos piled up the yards and didn’t score.
20th in the NFL in scoring. And this in spite of the defense creating turnovers and not turning it over themselves. This offenses’ ability to score is borderline anemic. The offense is not the reason for this team’s success – in fact, I give it very, very little credit. I could not be more ecstatic about the defense: it’s like watching 11 guys who are living two seconds before the other team so they know exactly where every play is going before it happens. But I couldn’t be less impressed with this play-it-safe, only-take-what-the-defense dictates mindset. One of these days the Broncos will wind up in a shootout, and this offense will not be able to keep up.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 12:37 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
6th in total offense, 20th in scoring
Not to rain on the parade, but that is the identical disparity to last year. I repeat, this success is a product of the defense alone.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would give the offense a chance to learn the system, last week to me looked drastically different than the weeks previous and it was against a better team. 3rd and short has looked awful though. We need to get better but I am pretty confident it will get better. One of the issues with the yardage is our ST’s just are not getting us past the 20. It is hard to go 80+ yards every drive… even though we have a few drives where we did just that.
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
by Todd Jewell on Oct 15, 2009 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Offenses always take more time to gel than Defenses.
BTW, how often are there “shootouts” in the NFL? Not that often. How likely is it that our Broncos will be in a shootout given the quality of the defense thus far? Not very likely. It is unfair at this stage to say the Broncos could not “keep up” in a shootout.
by Endzone on Oct 15, 2009 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
"that is the identical disparity to last year."
I choose to look at that statement this way:
Kyle Orton on the upswing through five games, in a new system, with a bum index finger on his throwing hand, is just as good at QB as Jay Cutler was over the course of last season.
The pessimists will point out the disparity thus far. The optimists will point out that the entire offense is continuing to become more cohesive, our offensive weapons are beginning to emerge, and our QB is healing up and becoming more confident.
If those rankings are at or near the same at the end of the year, I’ll worry.
Right now, I’ll choose not to look for the cloud in the silver lining.
- Jason
Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI
by jubei on Oct 15, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite
The disparity is simply the difference in ranking between yardage and points scored. Also, I was wrong before: Denver currently ranks 22nd in pts/game. I neglected to note the two teams that have only played four games. Last years’ squad had a -14 disparity, this years’ squad has a -16 in this category. In addition, this years’ squad is also 4 spots behind last years’ squad in both categories overall.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome, improv
Given Orton’s numbers, that’s a pretty silly argument. Scoring when you need to is more important that running up the score on certain games and losing your cool on others when you need to score to win doesn’t help – and it didn’t last year either. If you really believe this – and I’m sure that you do – I think that we’re watching different games.
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 15, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm looking at it as scoring when they can, not running up the score
I’m not a bit surprised by this, but one of the heaviest critiques of last year’s squad during the offseason was the metric of yards gained to points produced. Suddenly the Broncos are staring at the exact same disparity, but no one wants to admit it since the defense is hiding this defect.
There’s running up the score – ala New England two seasons ago – and then there is coming away with TDs instead of FGs in the red zone. This offense is no better at scoring (from anywhere on the field) than last season’s version. Todd pointed out one good aspect, the continued wretchedness of the return game constantly supplying long fields to drive, but the bottom line is that this offense is not putting points on the board in spite of the ability to create yardage. The greatest weakness of last years offense is still intact, and in fact is nearly a TD per game worse. Necessity or no, they are not scoring.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Work in progress.
First of all, to say that “no one wants to admit” that the Broncos are still struggling to put points on the board is inaccurate. You’ll find (if you look) that there are quite a few folks on here who share the very same concerns.
However, I would safely say that most of them feel that with an entirely new system in place and a new QB coming back from injury, coupled with a defense that’s playing out of its mind, we’re doing pretty well. Most of us here will also look at the fact that many of the problem areas exposed in the preseason and early season games seem to be systematically addressed as the season progresses.
Obviously there is still much room for improvement. In fact, McGeorge points out my biggest concern below, in regards to the interior OL in short yardage and goal-line situations. What I find encouraging is that it seems like the coaching staff is picking up on the same issues that we are and dealing with them accordingly.
I guess I just like to bask in the warm glow of knowing that this offense is working harmoniously with this defense, and the result at this point is far better than that of last year’s team.
- Jason
Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI
by jubei on Oct 15, 2009 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another point to add:
Keep in mind that last years offense HAD TO score to offset the atrocious play of the defense. Even at that, based on the rankings you cited, they didn’t when it counted.
This years offense HAS NOT had to score, due to the stellar defensive showing thus far. So the pressure hasn’t been on this year’s offense to have to score.
Don’t you think that if McD had to win a shoot-out every game with a crap defense, that he would call his games just a little bit differently?
Perhaps the Patriot way of running up the score had less to do with McDaniels and more to do with Belichick.
- Jason
Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI
by jubei on Oct 15, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Perhaps the Patriot way of running up the score had less to do with McDaniels and more to do with Belichick.
This wasn’t an indictment of McDaniels, they were simply the obvious example.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, they have "HAD TO score"
after falling behind by 10 the last two games. And they have. More than their opponents.
Hence 5-0.
The offense and defense are playing complementary football. As the offense begins to click more and more, the team will take advantage of more drives to score points.
5 games is a small sample, and we’ve left a lot of points on the fields. But what we HAVE done is score when we needed to — and always more than the team we are playing.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well said jubei and rec'd.
We as a team have improve every week in certain areas, not saying that more improvement is needed, but that we can see improvement each and every week and that is what they are working on verses the old shanny cutser way of saying; “Oh well, maybe next year”.
by bfree2bronc on Oct 15, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think of it this way
McDaniels talks a lot about complementary football. This offense does exactly what this defense needs in order to win, and vice versa. Lots of yards equals larger TOP, usually, keeping your defense off the field. The defense ranks #1 in scoring D, which allows the offense to be more cautious with the ball and not put up 35 a game to win. They are two halves of the same whole.
+1 on your comment, by the way, jubei.
by BroncosBassist on Oct 15, 2009 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1.. just write this almost exactly as a reply and then read yours..
.. McDaniels is learning about what this team can and can’t do effectively and like others have said that is a process that can only happen with real game experience.. He made adjustments in the NE game and we wnet on two 90+ yard drives and got 2 TD’s in the game.. improvements are coming.. be patient.. especially because despite this we are winning.. Those stats you mention that people where using against or O last year was mainly used because we where losing and people wanted to try and explain why. But we are winning and improving from game to game.. be patient dude and enjoy the ride!
by HorseStance on Oct 15, 2009 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets remember that after the first 3 weeks of last year,,,,
We were 27th in scoring and averaged 17 a game….see stats can be used anyway you want to use them.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 16, 2009 6:54 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where I saw this critique leveled against last year’s team was when someone was trying to raise a ruckus over McDaniels trading Cutler. The argument went “We had the #2 offense last year!”. To which, the reply usually was “we had the #2 in yards, but the #16 in scoring.” The argument was that the offense wasn’t nearly as explosive as people thought, and that trading Cutler wasn’t dismantling the amazing machine that everyone seemed to think it was.
The truth is, that offense was good early in the season, but the defense was so bad that they had to put up over 30 a game to win. That isn’t a winning formula. This year’s (a stingy scoring defense and an efficient offense that can score ~17 a game) is.
by BroncosBassist on Oct 15, 2009 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lots of yards
by the offense gives our D plenty of time to rest as well… Our guys have looked pretty strong late in the game, which improves my confidence we won’t fall apart in the last 6 minutes of a game. I’ve also noticed an obvious lack of the Prevent defense, which is refreshing.
Still got your Creedence...
by OutOfYourElement on Oct 15, 2009 7:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take this outlook to task
Comparing last year to this year? Sounds like a half empty outlook to me. Consider this: Last year’s quarterback was in his 2nd year with his system – at the end of the year having rolled up what, 24 +- games as a starter. Most everyone on the team had experience with that system. This year’s squad has what, 5 games. Big difference if you ask me, and doesn’t warrant the this year = last year appraisal. And we’re not just talking quarterback. This is a team thing, unless you don’t believe McDaniels. Let’s not get all crapped out because the numbers seem to be the same. Give it a little time, anything new is never done right the first time, let alone an intricate, complex system. Everybody’s getting more in synch. It’s gradual, and gradually getting better.
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime.
"Losing stinks" - Josh McDaniels
by azbroncomaniac on Oct 15, 2009 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hear you Improv...
..and even agree, to an extent. But there are three variables that I don’t think you are considering.
1 – INTs. All of the comparisons to last year fall by the wayside when you consider INTs. Cutler hurt last year’s defense by putting them in bad field position so much. Many of those shoot outs were self inflicted. Shoot outs don’t happen when a team has good defense to slow the tempo, a good running game, and an error free QB.
2 – Cutler at his best wasn’t winning games, and Orton at his worst (new system, glove on hand) is winning games.
3 – Efficiency. Orton’s yards and scores are surgical, not over the top. Cutler put himself in positions where he HAD to throw down the field to catch up, or to make up for earlier turnovers that he created.
These subtle variables explain why some guys look good on paper but can’t win games, while other guys look average and just win. Looking at the stats as a pure statistician, I might be inclined to fully agree with you. But from a coaching angle, there are “lies”, “damned lies”, and “statistics”. Orton is being properly used in our system, and it won’t look “flashy”; many folks will think he isn’t that good. In fact, a game manager beats a gunslinger most of the time.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 16, 2009 7:50 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
We’ve left a lot of points on the field because our interior O-line is getting blown off the ball in short yardage running situations. Until we fix that or scheme away from that weakness of ours (I’m looking directly at Hamilton and Hochstein), we will have trouble scoring in the Top 10 of the league. We won’t always be able to score TDs in goal to go satiations when 11 defenders are near the line of scrimmage.
Denver’s biggest weakness in 2009 is our interior O-line in short yardage and goal line running situations. I’m hoping we activate Olsen on gamedays because I’m not sure Hamilton still has what it takes to get it done on key running plays.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vince Wilfork
Is one of the best DT’s in the league. I think if you followed all of the NE games you’d see that its not just our G/C.
Give Hamilton a game or two to get his head on straight.
I’m also not a fan of counters and/or pulling guards in short yardage situations.
by _Atwater27 on Oct 15, 2009 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we could not punch it in on Oakland or Dallas. No Wilfork in those games.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, i’d love to see Buck over the top or a quick pitch outside to Moreno and make him beat a guy in space.
Our Small interior OL is never going to just run the ball down your throat from the 2 yd line in.
Dallas has that huge DL Ratliff, he’s getting talked up all the time.
Oaklands run D is terrible, no excuses on that one..
by _Atwater27 on Oct 15, 2009 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hillis
Seems like we are forgetting about my personal MVP from last year, Peyton Hillis………He is going to be a monster, when McD lets him out of the doghouse…..If any of you folks don’t think he has game, I would like to hear your opinion…
by keb on Oct 15, 2009 8:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hillis!
I agree completely. I love everything the team is doing, and I am not trying to second-guess McD or Bobby Turner. But it is so frustrating to NOT see Hillis getting the ball on 3rd or 4th and inches. And the whole “he fumbled a kickoff” rationale is even more maddening to me, given Knowshon’s alarming penchant for coughing up the ball in the last two games. For whatever reason Hillis is in the doghouse, I hope he gets out of it soon. I still think, looking at the last year +, Hillis has the best hands on the team.
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rookie RB
I’m not disagreeing about the interior line, but Moreno(as well as most rookie RBs) needs to improve in this area. Also, the return game is one of my biggest concerns. Where is it? Our field position has been killed by the STs. Better field position, more points.
by rocko1 on Oct 15, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
You know it’s bad when you find yourself hoping Eddie makes it all the way to the 20 so you don’t feel bad about not getting a friggin touchback. That’s just sad. We really really need to work on our ST return game or the terrible starting field position is going to catch up with us. On the bright side, at least now Orton has proven that he can drive it 98 yards down the field and score when we are put in those positions.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 16, 2009 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard McD talking about this.
He seems to think they can fix the problem; I’ll take a wait and see approach: I want to see what happens running behind Larsen in those situations.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that were true
The offense would never score. And you won’t win many games where you don’t score.
Don't argue with fools. It's how they reproduce.
by TheMastermind on Oct 15, 2009 2:21 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yes the team needs to score more points
and they will. The scoring average has certainly not been the result of the excellent QB play. The biggest contributors to the scoring average have been the absence of a solid return game, failure in short yardage situations, and penalties in the beginning of the season. Throw in the fact that all players on the offense are learning a new system. There certainly is nothing whatsoever to be concerned about iprov. This offense will continue to get better and better.
by rocko1 on Oct 15, 2009 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Look at the Marshal stat for comparison
Yes, we are not racking up yards like we were last year, but we have become a more efficient offense. I haven’t calculated the stat, but I’m willing to bet that we are scoring more points per yard gained than we did last year.
by Thnikkaman on Oct 15, 2009 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
Last year: 1 point for ever 17.08 yards gained
This year: 1 point for every 18.98 yards gained – good for 25th in the NFL. And you DO NOT want to see our company at the bottom of this list.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Is that after 5 games for last year’s stat, or all season. I’m willing to bet that we will climb in this category.
by Thnikkaman on Oct 15, 2009 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's for the whole year
If we were to look at the number for just the first five games, the number would insane due to the amount of points the Broncos scored in the first 5 weeks.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 8:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup but at least the end of those drives generally end in punts, FGs or TDs
And not turnovers. Putting the D in good position. That’s still an effective O though not as effective as desired of course
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on Oct 16, 2009 7:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually we are 3 missed fg's and one turnover on downs from being around 10th
You just cant compare numbers you have to put the situations in context as well.
by Hoopforia on Oct 15, 2009 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you have to go back and make those adjustments for last year
and that is a fool’s errand.
by adamriggs on Oct 15, 2009 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only this offense seems to be getting better each week
…whereas last year they started out with a bang and ended with a whimper.
And yes, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t like the offense, and that at some point in the future the Broncos will be involved in a “shootout” and Orton won’t be able to win that kind of game.
Fine. But he’s twice now proven he can bring a team back from 10 points. If he has to bring a team back from 21, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
In the meantime, it would be interesting to see how the “franchise QBs” in the league have fared when their team got down 21.
Oh. And last season, the Bears did get into a shootout, with the Vikings. Orton won it.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto...
Bottom line, the offense scored when it had to…….The 98 yard drive against the Pats showed me that this team has the tools to get the job done……As KO and Company continue to progress, the Bronco’s are going to be an unstoppable ball control offense…..I have confidence that McD will figure out the red zone issues pretty quick…
by keb on Oct 15, 2009 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say anything about 21 point comebacks
I’m talking about a shootout (small or large) where the offense has to keep pace. As you mention, this team has twice managed to come back from 10-point deficits…with the defense stepping up and pitching complete 2nd half shutouts. In either case, if the defense doesn’t put up a 2nd half goose egg, it forces a whole different issue. I have no desire to make this a revisionist history lesson, but the defense will not pitch 2nd half shutouts all season and the offense will have to play keep-up, not catch-up.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 15, 2009 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
that the metric is touchdowns per yards per attempt? I could be very, very wrong and I know Cold, Hard Football Facts is always right so you should probably just read them…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
by Drizzt396 on Oct 16, 2009 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
CHFF keeps the same yards-per-point stat
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 16, 2009 7:25 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you are saying...AGAIN.....Improv is that Orton sucks/ Yep, this never gets old!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 16, 2009 6:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither does you attempts at humor and wit
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Oct 16, 2009 7:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about the disparity.
But it’s been only 5 games. We’ll see how that adds up over the course of the season.
by SkinnyPB on Oct 15, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This debate assumes facts not in evidence, your honor ;-)
And, it also ignores facts that are: a couple of obvious and key issues.
First: Orton just got a splint and a glove off his throwing hand. Since dropping the splint, he’s been throwing with a QB rating of over 100. Second, look at his 4th quarter numbers. I’m not at all worried about scoring. When we need it, we score. 5-0 trumps stats every time. He threw the cover off the ball and won against the best team we’ve played. I don’t really care if he does so 45-44 or 14-10. That’s one of the great ‘So what?’ stats. It’s meaningless unless taken in a much larger context in which it makes some kind of a difference. With a 5-0 record – that’s not in evidence.
Next, let’s get rational – Orton is both healing and is learning a new system. Every player is learning about others and the system. The improvement game to game is obvious. What’s the outcome, charted on a graph of the season? Vast improvement each game in a myriad of ways. Better routes, faster decisions, better throws, crisper play.
Finally – only if you have an axe to grind can you complain about your QB, who’s won 5 straight. Of course there are things to improve – see first and second points. Given the coaching job, why would any unbiased observer not expect them to improve on their weaknesses?
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 15, 2009 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Nothing more
than axes to grind by the “QB experts”. Btw, your posts are getting better and better. Just like the Broncos each week. Thanx for your huge contribution to this site Bear.
by rocko1 on Oct 15, 2009 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I’ll be gone at least on week, perhaps as much as three, but look forward to returning
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 15, 2009 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right as usual Bear
The one, the only, significant stat in all this reads 5 – 0. I don’t see another twenty-four teams unbeaten based on the ranking provided. Come to think of it I don’t see one unbeaten team with a schedule as tough as ours.
I cannot see the point of comparing five games where everything is new against an entire season where there is at least a year’s familiarity. Let’s wait until we are in a position to compare sixteen games against sixteen.
I would STILL like to know the difference in yards gained in the kick return games between last year and now with the removal of the wedge. Is it possible most teams are having the same problem or do we need to learn from them?
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on Oct 16, 2009 6:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
5-0 is ALL that matters.
I still lament how many ‘fans’ were so quick to burn Plummer at the stake, when all he did was WIN games in Denver. ( The playoff loss to the Steelers was brutal, but I won’t get into a debate about something that far in the past.)
I just hope we appreciate a winning, TEAM FIRST QB this time around… Keep plugging, KO!
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Offense Still Must Score Points
I may be wrong, but although the Broncos have a +6 turnover ratio, I don’t believe the defense returned any turnovers for touchdowns, which is the only way a defense can win a game. The Bronco’s have won because, in every game so far, the offense (not the defense) scored more points than the other team’s offense.
The Broncos probably will get in a shootout some week, and might lose the game. But since there have been only four teams (Chicago Bears twice, Miami Dolphins, and New England Patriots) in the history of the NFL to have undefeted seasons, it probably wouldn’t be the first time a quality offense got into a shootout, and lost.
by CompUser on Oct 15, 2009 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give me a break
Please, this an obvious veiled pro Cultler post. Last year the Broncos were 2nd in yardage and 16th in scoring. And what did that get the Broncos? They also had one of the highest amount of turnovers with Mr. Cultler accounting for 20 of them one his own (18 INTS 2 Fumbles)…actually 21 if you count the Hoculi Bowl. This year’s offense has had to play some pretty tough defenses in Cinncy, Dallas, and New England. One thing is clear, they are able to move the ball and score when they need it. I’d rather have a methodical offense (not unlike the Steelers) that just wins football games than some have gunslinger kill a late game drive by throwing an interception like Cultler managed to do in the Buffalo game. Your dear mancrush should have put the team on his back and sewed up the division in that game, but he didn’t did he?
by Moore Cowbell on Oct 15, 2009 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
great article
Your discussion about high draft picks really validates what the Broncos did last draft. This year they will need to resign Orton, Marshall and Dumerville. All will be expensive. There will not be enough money for that and 2 #1 draft choices. With the turnaround of the team they will also be able to attract top notch free agents which are also expensive. The Patriot way is to blend great experienced players with youth. When we look at what the FA’s have done for us this year we have to agree with that approach and continue it. McD’s over all plan just continues to impress.
by mauibroncofan on Oct 15, 2009 12:39 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Chicago’s pick will most likely be in the middle to latter part of a deep draft, guaranteeing the Broncos good bang for the buck. That we don’t have to worry about signing two number ones — at, say, anywhere from 21-50 million guaranteed (depending on where the slotting might have been) frees us up to resign many among Marshall, Doom, Kuper, Clady (his father says they’ve approached him about an extension), Orton, and maybe even Bailey.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pats Question
Since you mention reloading / redoing contracts, etc — they got rid of Seymour this year which is fine, except they did it at the wrong time to me. They didn’t allow their other players to become starters before they got rid of him. They needed to do something early in camp in my opinion. I think this is something which has really hurt them so far this year and may continue to affect them while their other players get better in the system.
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
by Todd Jewell on Oct 15, 2009 12:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post, Bear!
Thanks! Rec’d
" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "
by hairybear on Oct 15, 2009 1:04 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice write up, Bear! Thanks!
Really good stuff.
by Gristle McThornbody on Oct 15, 2009 1:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Hear him. hear him!
Thank you broncobear.
Especially thanks for the first part that ends with “Soak it in”. Much to my surprise I became unusually entranced early on with this change in the Denver Broncos. It was not just emotional enthusiasm but among other things I was seeing setups that reminded me of aspects of ancient Chinese warrior traditions. In old China there existed “masters”-advanced teachers with advanced teachings. The prime requirement for the transmission of their knowledge was a student or students who could “eat bitter”. This is what the players refer to as being humble and going back to continue more training. The Chinese term however, refers more to those times when your self image and pride get in the way of the instruction and this is an obstacle that must be swallowed. The higher the level of instruction the more this happens. In the West it is very hard to find students who can do this. Coach McDaniels seems to understand this and has made sure to get players who, to use the western term, can be “coached up”. As you mention in your post we just don’t know how far this can go. I would suggest it is pretty darn far.
by oncobronco on Oct 15, 2009 1:17 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Top 10 draft picks are only a blessing if your scouting department is capable. Look what Matt Ryan has done for Atlanta. He is worth every penny of his exorbitant salary. Getting a 5-star talent like Payton Manning or John Elway can insure your team is a legit for a decade+.
But for every Matt Ryan, there is a Glenn Dorsey and JaBust Russell.
And yes, the NFL needs a rookie wage scale in the worst way. The NFL should examine the NBA model.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 1:20 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Draft problem
There are a lot of fundamental issues with the way the draft works in terms of rebuilding a team.
If you have a bad season you get a high draft pick and the pleasure of paying that player a ton of money without knowing if he will ever perform in the NFL. But you only get one high draft pick, every other team in the league gets to draft before you draft again, so you can only realisticly hope to get a player who slightly better than the ones other teams get. At best you can marginally improve your team and that is only if you hit what is essentially a coin flip between success and disaster. To futher compound the problem, a hit is not as beneficial as a miss is detrimental. If you put it in terms of gaming theory you would be better off trading all your draft picks for players every year since you have at least some idea of what you are getting.
Think how much the Raiders are hurt by paying Russell more than 10 million a year, they can’t go and get a good QB even if one should become available and as a result they are not going to be able to right the ship for at least 2 more years.
The other problem with the draft is of course that the reason you are bad is as often as not that the people who run the team are bad. So if you have bad people make decisions they will more often than not be bad decisions. That is something that abundantly clear with teams like the Rams, Lions, Raiders and Chiefs.
If you really wanted to create a level playing field you should make GMs and coaches draftable, so if you have had a GM or coach for 3 years or more that person can be drafted by a team with a losing record, that would do much more to level the playing field quickly.
by gyldenlove on Oct 15, 2009 1:23 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
“You can only realistically hope to get a player who slightly better than the ones other teams get”.
This statement about the 1st round is not true. Some drafts have more 5-star talent than others. The difference between Payton Manning and the 20th pick in that draft was the vast in terms of value.
The 2009 draft, not so much. In the 2009 draft, the guys at the top of round 1 were not much better prospects than the guys taken 10 to 20 picks later.
Depends entirely on each draft class. The 2010 draft looks like it will have some great players to pick from near the top of round 1.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
2006 draft
The 2006 draft was considered a strong class, so I will take that as an example.
In the top 5, Mario Williams has had one really good season, Reggie Bush is a change of pace back with injury problems, Vince Young is a bust, D’brickashaw Ferguson is playing well in New York, but it not a dominant LT, and AJ Hawk can’t get on the field in Green Bays new 3-4.
In fact in the top 10 of that year, only Mario Williams and Ferguson are making a serious impact. Between 11 and 20, Cutler has 1 good season and Ngata is solid, the rest range from decent players to out of the league.
If you drafted 21 or later in 2006, you actually did better than if you drafted earlier. Santonio Holmes has a superbowl MVP trophy, Deangelo Williams had a really good year last year and looks solid, Mangold is doing well as is Kiwanuka.
That pattern is seen almost every single year. Even in Peyton Mannings draft in 1998, only 1 of the top 3 players have made a big positive difference. There isn’t even a big difference between top 10 and 11-20 in terms of quality players if you discount Manning who is a rare player.
by gyldenlove on Oct 15, 2009 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try that again with the 2004 or 2007 draft.
There can be amazing players found in the Top 10 of many drafts if your scouts know what they are doing.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you happened to pick up Ryan Leaf instead of Manning...
That was, as I recall, considered a coin flip at the time…
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
validity
as a Bolts fan , I wanna thank you for providing useful insight to a rivalry and match-up that always brings out the best and worst in these two teams. thank you for being objective and insightful in analyzing this match up. ill be rooting for the bolts and hope they dont come out flat footed like a bunch of pansies the way they have the rest of the season. keep up the good work and heres to what should be an awesome mnf game
by RiversDelivers on Oct 15, 2009 2:00 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
now here's a good example of the difference between Raiders fans and Chargers Fans!
Belief is accepting something because you’ve been convinced to do so, whether you like it or not. Faith is accepting something because you want to accept it.
by Hercules Rockefeller on Oct 15, 2009 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks, Rd
Should be a great game
Hillis/Moreno in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 15, 2009 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Classy
Thank you and welcome to the MHR.
calBronco1
by calbronco1 on Oct 15, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stay classy, San Diego! ;)
Welcome to MHR, and thanks for the way you represent yourself and your fan base!
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Anybody seen that pic McGeorge has of Neckbeard?
Funny azz shiv man.
by _Atwater27 on Oct 15, 2009 3:12 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Google Kyle Orton drunk, select images and enjoy.
Our new QB is a Playboy of the highest order and has excellent taste in his beverage of choice. Good on you Kyle. Orton looks like one cool cat to me.
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should order that shirt
Neckbeard is my bro. Classic
by _Atwater27 on Oct 15, 2009 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or this one of Orton:
Holla
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/kyle-orton-dancing.jpg
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Play on, Playa...
- Jason
Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI
by jubei on Oct 15, 2009 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
dayyyam! Nice! How can you NOT love a QB with that kind of game!
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 15, 2009 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is nothing behind the neck beard
Except another fist
Don't argue with fools. It's how they reproduce.
by TheMastermind on Oct 15, 2009 4:43 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
For your consideration
My friend (another die-hard Broncosmaniac) is starting a movement to change the name from “Neckbeard” to “Throatbeard.” His rationale is that “Throatbeard” sounds “more badass and piratey.” Thoughts?
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go get up.
For example: Orton with three blondes
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/X2TlLBsNG08/STM03UQuRgI/AAAAAAAAB4U/GvyhzjoyDc/s400/drunkkylewithladies.jpg
by McGeorge on Oct 15, 2009 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
And now Orton is my hero off the field as well.
lol
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Oct 16, 2009 7:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's married now.
So he sips the Jack at home with his wife.
I hear he hangs out with Griese a lot, too.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 7:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep...they play golf together!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 16, 2009 7:02 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey.. wait a second..
One of those girls is MY girl.. Damn you Orton!!!
by _Atwater27 on Oct 15, 2009 3:19 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
totally awesome bear, thanks & rec'd
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It
by BShrout on Oct 15, 2009 3:37 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Management Secrets of the New England Patriots
I just started reading this and “The Education of a Coach” Fantastic read so far!! The way Mcd/Xanders approached the acquisition of players is very similar to how Belichick first built the 2000-2001 Patriots. What I see happening is the team will be comprised of players who are not the highest paid, but are very good players because they play for the team. They won’t have as many well-known players (at first), but will eventually have more than their share due to consistent winning. This is the exact same recipe as the NE Patriots have and now that culture is being developed here. I like what I see happening and it is a great example for small and fortune 500 companies to follow!!
calBronco1
by calbronco1 on Oct 15, 2009 4:25 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
They tend to favor
Team oriented players with a variety of skills who may not all be first round picks but have the physical and mental abilities to excel within the system given proper coaching.
They are building a winning team around a winning strategy, rather than trying to hammer ramdomly selected players into a mold where they may not be equipped to excel.
I have always believed this is why Orton had only modest success in Chicago. Like a lot of players, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The current system is designed for a QB with his skill set to excel, and the same is true of most of this roster. There’s plenty of season left but there’s no reason to believe they will not continue to gel and yes – they will begin to start games faster than they have been.
It usually takes longer for the offense to develop. No reason for worry yet, IMO.
Don't argue with fools. It's how they reproduce.
by TheMastermind on Oct 15, 2009 4:49 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
It's like what Coach Herb Brooks said in Miracle (as played by Kurt Russel)
“I’m not looking for the best players, I’m looking for the right ones.”
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 15, 2009 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post mastermind...
Thats why anyone, with HALF a clue, knows that Orton has mad upside. A 21-12 record at Chicago, in a system that was NEVER a fit for him, with a bad O line and no weapons.
Hows does ANYONE not see this???? SERIOUSLY!!!!!
He gets put back in a system that is a GREAT fit for him and we only started seeing the tip of the iceberg last week against the Pats.
Haters need to get a grip and do some FRICKIN RESEARCH…..peanuts!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Oct 16, 2009 7:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Annnnnd....
not to bring up THAT name again, but look at all the whining JC did when he was not consulted enough, and when the owner dared to fire a QB coach. Now look at Orton, when he was benched after leading the team to great success as a rookie, then after not receiving a whole lot of support from management. Barely said a word. DID HIS JOB! I just think KO has “it” that makes teammates want to battle for and with him.
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, ncm42
I can’t type much right now, but I’ve really enjoyed your additions to the conversation. Thank you — I think that you’re making excellent points!
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 16, 2009 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Bear!
I’ve been trolling for like a year, but only started commenting in the last few weeks. I am still hesitant, because I have always felt like I know the Broncos inside and out. After seeing the level of REAL knowledge and passion on this site, I am constantly humbled and somewhat afraid of saying something very elementary and silly! But seeing as how great everyone is to each other here…even when disagreeing…I’m pretty sure I would get a mulligan from everyone. Proving yet again why Broncos fans are the best in sports!
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone here is more than willing to help each other out
That’s one of the things that brought me here and keeps me here. So many great writers and posters – nice to have you throwing in!
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 16, 2009 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto!
I’m in Vegas, so the closest thing to Broncos talk I got before discovering MHR was the DP and the RMN. I’m sure I need to say no more, but I just got SO tired of dealing with all the venom… MHR is truly a community, and makes me proud to know there are still TRUE fans out there…
by ncm42 on Oct 16, 2009 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
We do silly here — very well! Lol
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Oct 16, 2009 8:03 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another well written article, Bear.
All you MHR staffers make this THE best place to come, not only to learn about the Broncos, but to learn about football. PERIOD.
Rec’d + another Pot-O-Honey with Salmon bits mixed in for flavor!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on Oct 15, 2009 5:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Hear him. Hear him! Part Two
Great write up. Like you, the Guru, and others I’m drawn in to paying attention to what Coach says and always want to use exact quotes to get it right. No matter how much one may know about football, and this site is full of football knowledge, it seems everyone is learning more about football from having Josh McDaniels as the new head coach. Your comments on the chief characteristics of good quarterback play is a good example of this. Even though I’m not on the team I sort of look at him as my coach too because I’m learning from him. It’s also been pointed out that the Defensive Coach, the assistant coaches, and the players are also giving way more information than you get from normal interviews. Kyle Orton sure talks straight and tells the truth of things.
It’s odd that pretty much all you need to know about the new team has been stated succinctly and clearly in public by Coach McDaniels yet so many just can’t figure out what is going on with this Denver team. Pre-existing prejudices and closed mindedness getting in the way – maybe?
Anyway, excellent post . Much appreciated.
by oncobronco on Oct 15, 2009 5:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post Bear--Again,I love this site!
I’ve said this before this Defense gets me excited just like 1977.The objective, with Joe Collier’s defense, was to hold teams to under 17 points a game.We were so dominating defensively everyone(the fans) wanted the offense to get off the field so the D had a chance for a turnover resulting in a score(our offense wasn’t that talented but didn’t turn the ball over).Our running game was Otis Armstong,Rob Lytle and John Keyworth—No big names.We have much better RB’s now.Our QB Craig Morton wasn’t ever considered that good but he didn’t lose games for us(except for the interceptions in the Superbowl).
Orton is a much better QB.Our Offensive line was a bunch of no names,We loved them but they could not compare to what we have now.
Our TE were Riley Odoms and Ron Egloff—no where close to what we have now.
Our WR were Jack Dolbin,Rick Upchurch and Haven Moses—They were serviceable and we loved them but really compared with now there’s no comparison.
I loved that 1977 team as everyone at the time did but it was the defense that carried us.
Just as the defense is doing now but the difference is this offense is extremely talented(yes the majority are Shanny’s players but in a different scheme)and coming around and even though the principal of not making mistakes to lose the game is the same,is there any doubt that once this talented group of players we have on offense put it all together—well watch out.I really think there will be no stopping us
by Broncolorado on Oct 15, 2009 6:13 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
i noticed...
that KO only 3-4 times really “looked off” the defenders- and it was driving my dad crazy, as we watched the game.
but somehow he was still putting it into open receivers arms almost every time.
was this a product of his read on the defense? should kyle get “better” at looking off receivers, or is that by design that he doesnt need to, that he just know where to go and watches so as to be as accurate as possible?
"I just looked across the huddle to see the guys in the huddle with me: great offensive line, great talent at wide receiver, great tight ends, great running backs. If we execute and play the way that we should, it should be tough to stop us."
-K.O.
by denver_diaspora on Oct 15, 2009 7:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he needs to get better
…but I think that will come with more experience in the system.
I’ve noticed his begun turning his head to look off safeties, even if his eyes are still following a target.
Also, the way the offense is designed may have the read going quickly to one side of the field, making a look off icing, rather than cake.
by JeffG on Oct 15, 2009 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
San Diego here we come!
Great post as always broncobear. Your insight into the game is always refreshing. Orton has really proven to be a reliable quarterback and I have to say, I was cautiously optimistic when I read he was coming here because from what I noticed all the guy did was win. I’m excited to see how he grows with us and under McD’s tutelage. I’ll be at the San Diego game on Sunday. Surrounded by all those Chargers fans should be fun. My family loves the Chargers. I was at the loss in December which was not fun, hopefully I’ll get to witness a win this time around. Go Broncos!
by CalifornianBroncosFan on Oct 16, 2009 4:16 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm in Carlsbad - where are you?
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
by Emmett Smith on Oct 16, 2009 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in San Luis Obispo, California
My family lives in San Diego by 4S Ranch
by CalifornianBroncosFan on Oct 24, 2009 11:24 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Next Game
Web Stuff
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
