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Around SBN: Jim Irsay: We Can Make It Work With Peyton Manning

Last year's Roster: Only 7 Ex-Broncos are still in the NFL

I was curious to see how ex-2008 Broncos players were doing.

 Using the opening day roster for 2008, plus the current player database at NFL.com, and Wikipedia and Google, I was able to track down all the players who are no longer with the team.


The thought was, if these players had value in the eyes of 31 other team's personnel offices, those players would be playing on other NFL rosters.

The findings were sobering:

31 players on Denver Broncos' Game 1 Roster in 2008 are no longer on the team
Only 7 players of that group of 31 are still in the NFL
6 Game 1 starters are out of football
15 members of the Broncos' 2008 defense are now out of the NFL
10 members of the 2008 offense are now out of football

Star-divide

Key: 

* game one starter
OF (out of football)
cut (still listed on NFL.com database)


DEFENSE
*John Engleberger (OF)
*Dewayne Robertson (OF)
*Boss Bailey (OF)

Nate Webster (OF)
Ebenezer Ekuban (OF)


Louis Green (OF)
Josh Shaw (OF)
Josh Mallard (OF)
Alvin McKinley (OF)
Paul Carrington (OF)
Steven Harris (OF)
Jordan Beck (OF)
Vickiel Vaughn (OF)
Larry Birdine (cut, Titans)
Sam Paulescu (cut, Cowboys)

Jamie Winborn (cut, Atlanta)

Marquay McDaniel (CFL Hamilton Tiger-Cats)

*Dre' Bly (2nd string, 49ers)


OFFENSE
*Selvin Young (OF)
*Cecil Sapp (OF)
*Darrell Jackson (OF)

Andre Hall (OF)
Ryan Torain (OF)
Clifford Russell (OF)
Mitch Erikson (OF)
Brett Pierce (OF)
Samie Parker (OF)
Darrell Hackney (OF)

Keary Colbert (cut, Lions)
Nate Jackson (cut, Browns)

P.J. Alexander (UFL Florida Tuskers)
Michael Pittman (UFL Florida Tuskers)
Erik Pears (2nd string, Raiders)
Tim Crowder (cut, Broncos; signed, Buccaneers, 3rd string)
Glenn Martinez (3rd string, Texans)
Montrae Holland (2nd string, Cowboys)
Patrick Ramsey (2nd string, Titans)
*Jay Cutler  (starter, Bears)

Might have missed a bit, as there's a lot of data represented here, but sure you can draw a number of different conclusions.  Yet to be studied are how the above compares to a typical Bronco year, or to a typical changeover from one season to another for a typical NFL squad.

Feel free to slice and dice.  

 

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 51 comments  |  15 recs  | 

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That is unbelievable. This makes me feel a lot better about our current roster.

"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".

"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.

by broncoholic on Oct 2, 2009 3:57 PM MDT reply actions  

Another alarming statistic about the Shanahan regime:

Of 63 players drafted between 2000 through 2005, only 2 remain on the team. Don’t count 06 on because those guys are still in rookie contracts.

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Oct 2, 2009 4:06 PM MDT reply actions  

What

Exactly were we doing? Were we trying to aim for the record of most players that don’t have nfl talent.

"Pleased? We are excited about the proposition of going forward from where we are right now. Pleased? I don't know if you want to say pleased. You may want to hang your hat on pleased. I don't want to hang my hat on nothing right now."

-Brian Dawkins, on the play of the defense

Once he gets his hands on you, there's not much you're going to do. Then you can't outrun him, you can't run around him, you can't really run him over -- so you've just got to deal with it."

Elvis Dumerville, on Ryan Clady

by milehighnation on Oct 2, 2009 4:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Just Kinda Bums Me Out...

These were all Broncos. I rooted for everyone of them, even to keep them benches toasty warm. Seriously, I hate thinking that Selvin Young is shleppin’ mobile phones with Tatum somewhere. I reckon most of ya’ll have also at least once in your life jumped up and yelled “run Selvin, RUN!!!”

I miss Simon Fletcher!

by puddletown on Oct 2, 2009 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, mhn, and we were successful

Well, if anyone wanted a single article that best defined why we needed to make the changes that we did, this is that article. Rec’d! My hat is off to you for the research: Thank you. Now I’m going to go take some nausea medication…

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Oct 2, 2009 4:46 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd both.

OP and you, bear, for pointing out the only thing nativeson left unsaid.

Anyone who still feels all pi$$ed off/on by the ousting of ye olde ‘Shanny regime members’ would do themselves a lotta good by reading this post (unless they just still can’t unhinge their Cutler love, then… Well, I’m just not gonna go there).

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and we oughtta let someone else have a fair shot : )

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Oct 2, 2009 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Don't forget

Dre’ Bly. He plays for the 49ers and I think he starts. We played him in preseason.

by SpeakEasy on Oct 2, 2009 4:53 PM MDT reply actions  

The Only One

Bly is the only one that has the talent to play, imo. Martinez, Holland, Ramsey, Pears & Crowder are all second or third stringers at best.

by Endzone on Oct 2, 2009 4:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yep, had Dre on a list, but he disappeared from sight.

Dre’ is 2nd string for the 49ers. They are trying to groom two younger CBs.

So that makes 7 still active in the NFL… will edit the post.

by nativesun on Oct 2, 2009 4:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

thanks for doing the homework

I can’t believe webster did not land on a team…… :)

"3 and Out Baby" I ride the short bus!

by scottwchicago on Oct 2, 2009 5:48 PM MDT reply actions  

and lost his helmet

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa

by KaptainKirk on Oct 3, 2009 12:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Uh, I'm a die hard Broncos fan...

and I don’t even REMEMBER the vast majority of those names.

Sad.

by quinnsdad on Oct 2, 2009 6:04 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Yea I know.

Who on earth is that Cutler guy? Are you sure he was on the active roster?

To have striven, to have made the effort, to have been true to certain ideals - this alone is worth the struggle. - William Penn

Tom Arnold, of Fox Sports Net's Best Damn Sports Show Period, said this about Warren Sapp: "Hey, Warren, the Raiders signed you to a seven-year deal. I guess Bill Callahan was right --- they are the dumbest team in America."

by Philistine21 on Oct 2, 2009 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

A large group of no-talent players...

combined with a few key “super stars” (i.e. Cutler, Marhsall, Royal, Clady…) looks an awful lot like the raiders, doesn’t it.

by BFF46350 on Oct 2, 2009 7:08 PM MDT reply actions  

As you end your post with....

We really need to see the normal turnover for a team to know for sure. Some of those guys listed above were even scrubs on our bad team and some were at the end and ready to retire (Ramsey, Robertson) to name a few. The turnover is very high in the NFL and the career expectancy is very low…but I have a feeling these numbers may still be terrifying even if somebody can do the research.

by bonaire on Oct 2, 2009 8:13 PM MDT reply actions  

Shanahan's GM/Coaching incompetence has been ultimately validated by his peers...

Over 30 of his players cut & released into the NFL job market. His professional peers (NFL HCs/GMs) evaluated, and then rejected a large majority of players Shanahan had determined were good enough for the Broncos roster. This is the ultimate validation.

Mastermind? Not according to the 2009 rosters of all NFL teams.

by BFF46350 on Oct 2, 2009 8:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

still wish him well

Can’t forget those sweet SB wins

by si_ice on Oct 2, 2009 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

But we still do not know the normal turnover....

so I don’t know what you mean by validated. As Nativesun pointed out, there are limitations with his research, and that is what we are talking about here. Excellent job by Nativesun to point out limitations; as somebody that occasionally rights articles for peer reviewed journals, it is important to point out limitations. To be validated, we need to know the average.

I’m still amazed at how fast people have turned on Shanny. I actually thought he should have been replaced a couple of years ago but most around here would have defended him then as hard as most are defending McD today. We seem to be very willing to throw anybody no longer with the club under the bus. I agree with BFF, he was very good for us for a while so he should deserve our respect and thanks.

by bonaire on Oct 2, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not true.

I haven’t been excited with Shanny for several years now. I’ll always love the guy, we all will. But, he had clearly not put together a competitive football team recently. And since he had all the control in the organization, I’ve known for a while he needed to go. I was relieved the second I heard Pat had let him go, with no reservations. Same with Cutler, I was completely over the guy by midseason last year. Point being: We don’t all just dump on our ex-Broncos after they leave, I was unhappy with those two while they were still with us.

by aLuffabo on Oct 2, 2009 10:40 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Validated...

If Shanahan was an excellent coach and gm, his players would be highly valued by the other coaches/gms in the nfl market. Not because of what the msm says, but because the other coaches/gms also review tape and evaluate the players themselves.

Now, 30+ of Shanahan’s players are cut and only 7 of them are “re-hired” by the other coaches in the nfl. This indicates that the rest of the nfl does not think these 24 players had enough talent to be on the rosters of the worst teams in the league. But they comprised nearly 50% of the Broncos roster!

Nearly 50% of the 2008 Broncos players lacked enough talent to make the rosters of the 2009 Lions, Browns, Raiders, etc.

This is the peer validation I was referring to.

Now consider our current Broncos roster. If 31 players were released today, do you think 24 of them would not be talented enough for any nfl roster?

by BFF46350 on Oct 2, 2009 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm really not trying to start a fight.....

so sorry if I come across that way. I actually think you may be right about what it says about Shanny as a GM. But to be validated you need to be able to tell me that you have researched some other teams (a random sample or all teams) and found that this same trend is not happening to the other teams. Can you tell me that other teams have not seen this kind of turn over and not had similar numbers or percents of players out of football now? Probably not without doing some research. Validating of research or data/databases, software, means you have to challenge/test your results to see if they hold up. This has not been done.

by bonaire on Oct 3, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm honestly not offended - enjoying our discussion!

A a reliability engineer, I understand the DOE (design of experiment) process very well and use it on a daily basis in my work activities, so I can appreciate your technical discipline in defense of formal data analysis. However, I am communicating in a football blog, employing the term “validated” in a social sense, not a scientific one.

I think we all get off track when we freely exchange terms like analysis and opinion, conclusion and observation. People with diverse backgrounds will interpret (and use) these terms quite differently. You and I, and others with technical backgrounds, will tend to enforce the rules of scientific analysis – respect the formal process.

So, I agree with you…No, it’s not a true validation based on formal DOE analysis. Would you agree to calling it a “logic-based-observation”?

No need to apologize earlier. I wasn’t shouting. Maybe I shouldn’t have used bold in my statement. I’m not a big blogger, so I’m not up on the etiquette. Sorry.

by BFF46350 on Oct 3, 2009 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

How about “Hypothesis”…. = )

I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok.
Shaquille O'Neal

by tannji on Oct 3, 2009 9:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

interestingly, both employed

Manuel in Detroit, McCree with JAX. I thought they would have trouble finding employment as it was one pathetic pair of safeties, but apparently league is really thin on talent in this position

by si_ice on Oct 2, 2009 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good point, si_ice

I’ve read just that – that the safety position is thin and that teams are hurting for them. After watching those two – even though I will cheerfully give the lion’s share of the blame to Slowik – I was surprised to see both playing. I wish them well – neither of their teams is exactly a powerhouse, but I hope that both do well.

Meantime, how’s that thing with Dawkins and Hill treating us?

Hillis/Moreno in '09

by Doc Bear on Oct 2, 2009 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Manuel is in Detroit now

After seeing his piece on NFL Network, I really am pulling for him to come through and do some things in the league.

"FLAG! Fail on the field. Re-do." -Disco_Stu

by Joe Medina on Oct 2, 2009 10:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bell

Think he is on one of the UFL rosters

by Scotto on Oct 2, 2009 9:38 PM MDT reply actions  

Battle of the Bells

Tatum Bell, of course, was not on the opening day roster. He is currently with the UFL Florida Tuskers, so you can stop looking for him at the mall. The Tuskers have three 2008 Broncos in P.J. Alexander, Michael Pittman, and Tatum. Gotta be some Bronco connection on the Tusker staff.

Mike Bell was not on the 2008 Broncos. He signed briefly with Houston, but was cut prior to the first preseason game. Although he is making waves now with New Orleans, take a look at this news item about his being cut from Houston…

Texans Waive Mike Bell, Sign OT Tucker
8/8/2008 — One day before they begin the preseason schedule against Denver at Reliant Stadium, the Houston Texans placed former Broncos running back Mike Bell on waivers and signed free agent offensive tackle Torrin Tucker. When Bell was signed last week because of Chris Brown’s back injury, he showed up out of shape, then suffered a hamstring injury and wasn’t able to participate in practice.

by nativesun on Oct 2, 2009 10:14 PM MDT reply actions  

Wow

There are 9 or 10 names that I don’t even recognize. No wonder they aren’t employed.

"You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough, in the second half you give what's left." – Yogi Berra
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; We grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw
Breaking jaws or the NFL in Oakland who cares? Fall on your pirate’s sword - Ponderosa

by KaptainKirk on Oct 3, 2009 12:23 AM MDT reply actions  

Great research.

This is the kind of in-depth stuff I love. Interesting (if depressing) to see just how far we’d fallen without realizing it.

Easily rec’d.

At this point in the season, all the Rockies' numbers are magic.
"If you do it right 51 percent of the time, you will end up a hero." - Alfred P. Sloan

by Duncan1800 on Oct 3, 2009 1:05 AM MDT reply actions  

Thanks for the info

Wow, that is pathetic. This is more proof we were a really, really bad team.

The only ex-Bronco that I have heard a lot of is Mike Bell. I know he is injured for the Saints, however he was doing quite well over there before he got hurt.

2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Oct 3, 2009 1:29 AM MDT reply actions  

At least....

We won 8 games last season with these guys :-/

Any movement in history which attempts to perpetuate itself, becomes reactionary.

- Marshal Broz Tito

by BosnianBronco on Oct 3, 2009 3:34 AM MDT reply actions  

Great Research

Thank you for taking the time to research this.

The MSM has nothing on the writers of this website.

by Future Bronco DC on Oct 3, 2009 5:55 AM MDT reply actions  

Funny

Patrick Ramsey was just released by the Titans…

(just to make room for a CB from the practice squad, he’ll probably be signed again once Finnegan is healthy again, but still ;) )

Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands

by BroncosNL on Oct 3, 2009 1:21 PM MDT reply actions  

I did the same analysis about a week ago, using the end of the 2008 season roster.

The results are just as sobering. Since player rosters are fluid, and the online databases are not always accurate (I used ESPN), take this with a grain of salt. Players not included on nativeson’s excellent post: Hamza Abdulla, Tatum Bell, Corey Boyd, Nic Clemons, Vernon Fox, Herana-Daze Jones, Niko Koutavides – Tampa Bay, Mike Leach – Arizona, Kory Lichtensteiger – Minnesota, Calvin Lowry – Detroit, Marquand Manuel – Detroit, Marlon McCree – Jacksonville, Chad Mustard, Karl Paymah – Minnesota, P.J. Pope, Jeb Putzier, and Roderick Rogers. Overall, 38 players from the end of 2008 are not on the roster in 2009. 20 from the defense, 17 from the offense and 1 special teamer. When I looked, of these 38, 13 were on the rosters of other teams.

"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey

by db8632 on Oct 3, 2009 3:13 PM MDT reply actions  

I heard Lichtensteiger was just cut a couple days ago by Minnesota………..

Broncos 2009 AFC West Champs!!

by milehighinTO on Oct 3, 2009 6:32 PM MDT reply actions  

Ramsey cut

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Wilson-Titans-cut-Ramsey-promote-Williams.html

Lichtensteiger was also cut recently (I just now saw someone else’s comment to this effect).

I posted a comment previously on this idea — of the poor success of our ex-players — so I obviously agree with this argument.

I also noticed that Dre’ Bly’s position on the Niners was partly the result of a rule that cuts the cap hit for a veteran, and this rule was instituted to help veteran players whose minimum salary is a disincentive for teams. Contrast his current $845,000 salary (which counts at about half for cap purposes) with his $3.250,000 salary (not including substantial bonus money already earned) and you get an idea of how little other teams valued our former players.

We can argue about the degree to which our former players have failed to succeed but the overall message is clear. Other than Leach, whose leaving was controversial, I can’t think of a single former player we cut who has become a starter anywhere — which is significant.

Many people have focused on our lack of success in the draft, particularly earlier in this decade, but our failings seemed to occur more in our evaluations of pro talent, which is less a product of luck. Our success in the draft wasn’t that anomalous even though there were a few years that stand out as glaring failures. This alone did not account for our decline, but it was obviously part of it. Our failure to mitigate our decline through free agency at the same time that we were failing in our drafts was a critical failing. And it’s likely that Shanahan bore responsibility for this failure.

One statistic that few people seem to be aware of is the number of UFAs in recent years who were no longer wanted by their previous teams. The 2009 Broncos Media Guide (How the Broncos were built) shows how few UFAs in recent years were still being pursued by their previous team once they became UFAs. A few players who were relinquished found success — such as Stokley or Haggan — but this year’s crop of UFAs stands out in sharp contrast to the last few. Added to that, we often overpaid for that talent — such as Travis Henry.

The point is — poor evaluation of pro talent combined lax restraints on salary led to failure, and this was exacerbated by failures in the draft. Our recent success in the draft (starting in 2006) provided a nucleus of talent that the current team enjoys. And added to that group, we now have a new group of UFAs who were evaluated by the new staff and they don’t appear to be like their castoff predecessors.

This is the story of this team, and it’s invariably missed by the MSM. It’s a tale of feast and famine.

"spontaneous method of irrational knowledge based on the critical and systematic objectivity of the associations and interpretations of delirious phenomena." - Dalí

by Colinski on Oct 4, 2009 10:53 AM MDT reply actions  

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