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MHR University - The 4-4 formation, and Wildhorse (Wildcat) References

I get a lot of questions regarding three formations.  The first is the 5-2 variant of the 3-4 (such as employed by the Denver Broncos).  My last MHR-U was on this topic, and several members and staff have written on this issue.  Since Denver uses it, you can expect MHR to be on top of it.

I also get a lot of e-mails about the wildhorses formation.  I've told several members that I would write on this, but many members have stepped into the gap and written excellent posts about the formations and how they are used.  For my part, I am going to put together a reference guide so that the inquiring scholar may look up all of the information he or she needs in one, easy to find place (below).

The 4-4 is a common formation at many smaller HS programs, and a great number of middle school programs.  It isn't really seen at the pro level, but an understanding of this formation is a building block for anybody's knowledge of a good defense.  I'll discuss the two main variants of this formation, and how the formation was used at one middle school program that I was associated with.

Star-divide

Wildhorses

Yi Zhang's email is typical of the dozens of requests I get for word on the Wildhorse.  The offense we saw on the field against the Patriots for several plays was not the wildcat, but has some points in common.  He asks for a look at the wildcat, as he was impressed at how it was used to beat a good (NE) team.  Let's take a deeper look.

From a comment by SlowWhiteGuy, one of our members who also has a coaching background -

...while a lot of announcers seem to want to compare the Wildcat with the Wild Horse they are actually two entirely different systems. The only similarity is the direct snap.

The Wildcat is a Spread Option attack from the shotgun. The tailback (Brown) lines up in the shotgun and a wingback (usually Williams) comes across on a jet-sweep action. The TB reads one of the defenders, usually the frontside or the backside DE, and options off the read. If the player bites on the jet-sweep, Brown keeps it; if the defender stays home he hands off on the jet-sweep. The defender is always wrong.

The Wild Horses is not an option based attack, but it does force 11 on 11 football. When Orton moves out from under center he forces the defense to account for six skill positions instead of the usual five. This forces the defense to show its hand a bit. That gives Orton a second pre-snap read and he can decide to continue with the direct snap or, he can motion back under center and get a third pre-snap read. It’s really about unmasking the defense.

Now we may see more wrinkles, like some jet-sweep action or some flee flicker action off this concept. But, while the Wildcat is primarily about creating option dilemmas for the defense the Wild Horses seems to be about unmasking the defense to exploit the holes.

SWG is entirely correct.  I couldn't say it any better, and he stole my thunder for this article.  I have nothing to add, except for an excellent breakdown on how to use the wildhorse.  Funny thing is, I can't take credit for that either.

As used by Denver in the Patriots game, the Broncos used the wildhorse to probe the NE defense.  Here is the excellent play-by-play background on how this was done, by member LebowskiBronco as part of his excellent series "The Dude Abides" -

Link

As you can see, the wildhorse is less of a formation with an intent to move the ball (such as with the wildcat), and is designed to see what the opponent is doing.  Both formations (wildcat and wildhorse) have the word "wild" in them, and both have the direct snap (to a RB), but beyond that, they are entirely different.

If anyone has any questions on the wildhorse, or even on the wildcat, this is a great time to ask in the comments section below.

The 4-4 formation

One of the emails I got on this subject was from George Rowland, a young man who will be playing football at a university in the United Kingdom that runs a 4-4 defense.  This makes sense, since the pool of players to pull from isn't going to be as diverse as in the USA.  In a UK program, the plays are likely much more oriented towards running the ball.  I hope you will all join me in wishing George the best at his studies in academia as well as American football.  (As an aside, I wish George extra special good luck.  I went to a university in the United States, and had to learn rugby!  In that sense, I feel a special bond with George in learning a sport that is different from what one might have grown up with).

The 4-4 is a common defense at the middle school level (where there is much less passing) and at many smaller HS programs (where the pool of players presents fewer opportunities to find QBs and WRs for the offense).

There are two main variants.  The first is called the "4-4 single", and the second is the standard 4-4, which is often mistaken for the 46 defense.  While the 4-4 standard sounds like it would be more common (being called "standard"), it is the "single" that many programs run nationwide.

In the "single", we have four linemen (DE - DT - DT - DE) and four LBs (OLB - ILB - ILB - OLB), 1 cornerback, and two safeties.  Many early age programs will oversimplify, and call the OLBs "DEs", but this isn't technically correct.

Here is how the middle school program that I was associated with ran our 4-4 (single variant).  We put our biggest guys at DT.  We put our fastest guy at CB.  We put our toughest guys at the two ILB positions.  We put our smartest kids at OLB.  Our best all-around athletes took safety and DE, with the smarter kids going to safety.  I am being very, very simplistic here for the sake of brevity.

In every play, without exception, the CB played man coverage.  He never blitzed or zoned.  He started in "on" coverage (halfway between "off" and "press").  The FS played deep zone, and his only job was to ensure that no offensive player was further down the field than he was.  The SS played over coverage on the WR with an eye towards the TE.  We didn't blitz our SAFs.

The DTs and DEs had only 3 plays to remember.  Slant right, slant left, or straight up.  Straight up was a rare call (once or twice per game).  It was used to allow our guys to get a "hit" or "jack" on an opposing linemen.  While not a completely sound call, it had the value of pumping up the line, and taking the OL off balance.  The emphasis for the DL was to fire out of their stances quickly, and punch through (an underarm-punch motion) to get penetration between O-Linemen.  This was entirely a one-gap proposition.  Every gap was occupied, and the QB harried.  Even on run plays (the vast majority), we often disrupted plays in the backfield.  With advanced kids from year to year, we might introduce the "swim" (an overarm technique).

The OLBs had to be smart.  Every play, they played run contain to the edges.  The had to have the discipline to NOT make the tackle until a runner turned back to the inside of the field (where the remaining 11 defensive players are).  Their number one focus was to ensure that a runner never, ever reaches the side of the field where he can then streak up field.  With enough discipline, no sweeps or reverses would throw off our OLBs, forcing opposing teams to take the run up the gut.

The ILBs had only two assignments - zone the run, or blitz.  So there were only 4 plays.  Blitz right, blitz left, blitz both, or stay at home.  Blitz both was rare, and stay home was most common.  I'd guess we ran "stay" 70%, blitz R or L 25%, and blitz both 5%.  On blitzes, the ILB chose his gap (he knows better than the coaches which kid on the offense he can handle).  On a double blitz, the two agreed ahead of time on their gaps.  (The only time I was predictable was when an opposing team was backed to their own goal line.  Our penetration with 4 players was almost always enough to do the trick, but double blitzes scored a lot of safeties for us.  I don't recall getting burned on any plays for 90 or more yards).

Now, as the defensive coordinator goes, we had a very simple hand-signal system (which changed each quarter).  We could call plays with the parameters being limited to the DL slants, and the assignments of the ILBs.  Here are some samples of our simple system:

Slant right, blitz right / slant right, stay / straight up, stay / etc.

Our focus was simplicity, character, toughness, endurance, and an elite mastery of the basics.  We didn't go into "fancy" plays or gimmicks.  This made our kids very marketable to the HS we fed into, because our kids had the basics down.  At the middle school level, our program never had a losing year.  It was not unusual for our defenses to hold teams to negative yardage, and without any blitzing.  System-wise, we were a run contain (the OLBs), bend don't break system.  We didn't give up big plays, and rarely blitzed.  Despite this, our teams were dominant enough to stop most plays at or behind scrimmage.

  1. Simplicity - What you see is what you get.  We aren't hiding anything.  You have to beat us to score.
  2. Character - You talk smack to an opposing player or a ref, and you're done.  If you can't be self disciplined, you won't be coach-able.  Grades and off-field behavior determine if you even get a chance to play on this team.
  3. Toughness - The other school's team isn't here to play ball.  They're here to tear down our flag, to take our cheerleaders, to spit on our families and our friends, and to desecrate all that is holy.  We are guardians of all that is just and right.  We will knock these thugs on their butts, or die in the last ditch defending our school.  Sounds silly, but our guys were always amped to play hard, and they saw the opposing team as an invading army.  They took games personally.
  4. Endurance - We will never tire or wear out.  We won't sweat, or get out of breath.  We keep coming at opposing teams full speed on every play, and this is because our conditioning program requires it.  Everyone does weights, but everyone also runs, runs, runs, runs, runs....
  5. Mastering the basics - Every basic concept is drilled ad infinitum.  Tackle drills, stance, how to fire out of a stance, batting down passes, fumble recoveries.  We didn't focus on intricate plays, multiple assignments, or trickery.  Kids didn't get much at all in the ways of Xs and Os.  We hit the basics everyday, and don't let up.  We don't introduce concepts beyond the basics.  (Again, the HS team got kids from several middle school programs, but our kids were featured because they were coach-able and didn't need reviews).  We were teaching "football", not Madden.  We were playing to win, but playing to get our kids into the HS program.

The other variant is the 4-4 standard.  It looks just like the 46, and some may call it that.  The formation features 2 CBs, 4 linemen, 4 LBs, and 1 safety.  I don't call this a 46, and here's why.  The 46 is not just a formation, it is a full-blown system (run notably in previous years by the Eagles, and years ago by the Bears).  One of the OLBs is almost always a strong safety by trade.  In a true, standard 4-4, the 4 LBs are true LBs and play any system other than a 46 system.  (Note - good coaches will differ on this interpretation which is based almost entirely on what region he is from).

Like the single 4-4, it is based on stopping the run.  In this case, the 4-4 provides a little more pass protection, but the deep pass is a threat.  As with the 46, the FS must be elite.  (The Eagles had Brian Dawkins, which allowed them to run a 46 for many years).

You now have a good, basic grasp of one formation strategy for a middle school level (7th, 8th grade) program.  Of course, tactics (teaching proper techniques) and management are still issues that take years to learn.  You know now quite a bit about the 4-4, though there are many approaches to using a 4-4, and I've only explained one (and a very simple one at that).  And, of course, HS level football is light years ahead of this.  But I hope that this article has given you an idea of how the 4-4 can work, and you can use the knowledge as a building block towards understanding how these principles evolve as we move up the ladder towards HS, college, and eventually pro-level play.

All the best,

Steve (formerly Hoosierteacher) 

Poll
I played in, coached, or watched a program growing up that ran a 4-4...
Yes!
103 votes
No.
101 votes
I'm not sure.
32 votes

236 votes | Poll has closed

10 recs  |  Comment 46 comments |

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Great info.

We ran a 4-4 in high-school because we played in a primarily run-happy league. I was a lanky 6’1" 165lbs cornerback and when I was on the field, my horrible task 80% of the time was run-containment. That usually meant I got destroyed by some full back or pulling guard. Yeah….fun times.

I thought the announcers were calling it “Wild Horse” as a joke. Now I know, and knowing’s half the battle!

by SinDonor on Oct 24, 2009 11:46 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

It is a thankless job to take run blocks as a cornerback.

But doing the thankless work is what empowers the team to win. You ARE the team.

Thanks for your HS effort, and thanks for being a part of MHR!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks HT.

Keep up with the great articles and I’ll keep on being a part of MHR!

by SinDonor on Oct 24, 2009 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

We ran the 4-3 when I was a sophomore, which was the extent of my playing time.

Here’s a bit of comedy for all of you:

I was a 6’2" 170lb DT/OT! Our school wasn’t small by any means, but that year we just didn’t have any big bodies to play on the line. I desperately wanted to play tight end, since I could catch most anything they threw at me and I was pretty decent as a blocker. But there was a dude that was 6’4" and about 200lb that was our starter at TE. He was moved to LDE on defense, so our front four consisted of him, myself, my buddy who was about as big as I was, but a little shorter at RDT, and another skinny guy at RDE. Needless to say, we got blown up against the inside run. We actually did pretty well against outside runs and the pass, though.

About the only thing I remember was exactly what Steve mentioned for the linemen: slant right, slant left, straight up. On offense, it was pass-block or run-block, no pulling whatsoever, since we never pulled tackles. All in all, I finished with a bad taste in my mouth, and that was it for me.

Nice article, Steve! Thanks! I’m really looking forward to the progression from middle school to the pros!

- Jason

Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI

by jubei on Oct 24, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You get a better taste when you win.

In a program that isn’t winning, a good coach goes one of three ways.

1 – Makes a commitment to winning. This is high risk, and depends on what he had for resources and what the other programs have in his area. If he commits to this route and still doesn’t win, he may lose his job. For a small program in a competitive area, and without intense support from the athletic director and town, this may not be possible.

2 – Make the program as “fun” as possible. Do what you can to recruit and retain kids from the student body, and place “fun” as a high priority. This isn’t a bad way to go either. It may not lead to a lot of wins, but the program may just not be able to compete localy.

3 – Emphasis on teaching – You can’t ensure wins, but you can ensure that each player is learning the game well, getting in shape, and getting to letter in a varsity program. This helps kids with resumes and applications for work or college. Nothing wrong with that.

But as they say, winning cures everything. Kids in a winning program feel good about themselves, get an excellent health benefit from playing and training, learn valuable concepts like teamwork, fair play, and effort, and get the experience on paper.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the reply, Steve!

Unfortunately, our coaches weren’t very effective in any of those areas, or the ones mentioned in your original post. If you imagine all of the negative stereotypes associated with coaching, you’d have probably seen most of them in our staff. At the time, I used that as an excuse to be bitter, but now it just serves as a point of contrast. It makes me respect what coaches like yourself are doing with these kids by providing a positive experience for them.

In fact, recently I’ve seen one of our local HS teams become very successful behind a coach that preaches accountability and toughness without becoming a tyrant. He seems to understand that he has a responsibility as much to his players as a mentor and authority figure as he does to the community to generate wins. Not only does he turn out great players, he turns out great young men as well.

It can be done, and part of me wishes that I had the opportunity to play for a coach like that.

- Jason

Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI

by jubei on Oct 24, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't stand tyrant coaches.

We coached against a few. They would yell at the kids, and be explosive. The funny thing was, it was often the coach himself that was doing a poor job, or the kids weren’t very good BECAUSE they hadn’t learned the fundementals well (the coach’s responsibility). And they wondered why they lost!

We didn’t do much yelling. There were exceptions.

1. Safety. During a game, a young man has a lot of adrenaline flowing, and is preoccupied with a combination of fear and excitement. He may not be listening to the coach, and has a “deer in the headlights” look. but I may be trying to tell him something to keep him safe. I might yell, “Keep your $(&9ed head up on that tackle!” in order to get him to listen to me, and to protect his neck from getting broken making a “head down” tackle.

2. Behavior. I never, ever allowed a kid to jeapordize our standing with the officials, the public, or our administration. If a kid mouthed off to another player or an official, the whole stadium was going to know that kid made a mistake, and so would he.

3. Motivation. In the locker room you could be motivational with a loud presence, and sometimes, a soft presence did the trick even better. When I did yell, it wasn’t “at” someone. It was in general.

I left a middle school program I was briefly at when a coach yelled at one of our special education kids. I talked to him after the game (in a friendly manner), and the coach decided to yell at me too. My other experiences were with excellent coaches from top to bottom.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love the Pic, Speaking of knowing...

How come you changed your name Steve? I loved HosierTeacher

by broncboy on Oct 24, 2009 11:30 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

All of the staff at MHR went to their normal names.

It was felt that it elevates the site to a more professional plane by dropping the blog like handles.

: )

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you very much Steve

One more semester of these and I’ll be ready for my Freshman exams at MHR-U!

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Oct 24, 2009 11:47 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You kidder.

There’s always a faculty member posing as a student. I guess we never stop learning.

: )

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the post!

and thanks for mentioning me :D

does the 4-4 do okay against the pass? i understand that high schools run the ball a lot but have you met a team with a good QB/WR that decided to pass? In the link you put up lebowski mentions at the end about a RB throw, which, for some reason, i feel like would be so amazingly effective lol. I probably need to rewatch the game and see how the patriots reacted but during lebowski’s extensive analysis of the first drive, it seemed like the patriots brought a lot of men into the box while leaving corner and safety to account for deep threats. i feel like in those situations, if you sent a man deep (marshall, gaffney) and another one underneath (royal or scheffler), while using an outside toss run, you could probably get a pretty easy lob throw to a wide out open guy underneath as the deep go route guy draws double coverage. At the same time, we’d probably need someone the defense believes would be able to throw the deep ball.

by march20 on Oct 24, 2009 12:11 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Very good questions.

Yi,

The 4-4 is not designed to handle the pass, but it can. If a team brings out a second corner, we shifted the SS to the weakside to cover that corner. I would advise such a 4-4 team to call more blitzes to increase pressure on the QB in such an instance. In an area that features a good passing program though, I would avoid the 4-4.

I rarely encountered a combination of good QBs and WRs at the middle school level. At the HS level, we were a 4-3 team. There is a giant jump just from 7th to 8th grade believe it or not. (If you have a hard time buying that, go watch a 7th game opener for an 8th grade main event. The game is MUCH faster and hard hitting. The jump to HS ball is HUGE!) At the HS level, especialy with large programs, there are many excellent WRs and a few good QBs.

Always remember, in the wildhorse you are going to run almost every time. A RB throw is a very risky option. If the match-ups are favorable, you can bring the QB back to pass. Also, while the QB is not someone you want to risk to injury, you CAN throw to him on a short route, and almost any QB will catch the ball. However, he must be clear of any close coverage, and should take a knee right away to avoid the hit. Unlike the wildcat, the purpose of the wildhorse is to see what the defense has planned, not to run a single wing option play for the sake of it.

Good thoughts all Yi!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

My apologies...

“If a team brings out a second WR…” NOT “If a team brings out a second corner…”

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, the memories!

Back in the 60’s in a small school we played a 5-3. We had a NT, two DT’s and two DE’s. We had two OLB’s and a MLB with two corners and a Safety. In a run-dominated era facing a “T” and a “Split T” it was effective. The key was the MLB. He had to be fast, tough and smart. The five down linemen played a one gap. The NT would choose which side of the center he as going to line up on and could switch or line heads up on the center and play a two gap. The DE’s could put their hand on the ground or stand up, whichever made them more comfortable. The Corners played Zone and the safety never let anybody get deeper. The MLB had to read pass/run and cover any pass across the middle as well as help the NT stuff the run in the middle of the line.

I know it sounds goofy, but sometimes this year when Dawkins moves way up we almost look like the 5-3.

Another great post HT. Thanks and as always, highly rec’d.

It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09

by firstfan on Oct 24, 2009 12:34 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Great stuff First!

Writing this story brought back memories for me, and it seems to have stirred that with other folks too. You are right about Dawkins and the look – it DOES look like the 5-3 that some programs run!

(Some teams in our area ran a 5-2 against very obvious runs. We toyed with it, but never made the move. We did play a couple of 5-3 programs with your variant – 2 SAF, 1 CB).

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great teaching as usual.

One question, what are the different “wrinkles” to the WildHorse formation since all we got to see was Moreno taking the snap and running stright up the middle or Orton coming back under center for the snap. What else can they do with this? Add a FB (Hillis or Spencer)? Wasn’t Royal a QB in high school, what about him with a latteral pass option? Are there other options? So much for one question huh. I get goose bumps just thinking of all the posibilities.

by bfree2bronc on Oct 24, 2009 12:36 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

There are plenty of variants for a wildhorse.

But rember, you don’t want to get cute with this formation. When you bring a QB on the field, then move him out to the slot or wide, you don’t have room for error. Your primary goal is to read the defense. If they don’t account for the heavy run that the offense shows, you ram it down their throats. So likely, the defense adjusts to the run, and you get to see their “goodies”.

At that point, you should either commit to the run, or bring back the QB. If you really, REALLY want to run out of this kind of formation, split the RB and QB so the defense doesn’t know what you are doing (wildcat) and direct snap to either player. Or just play one of the classic single wing offenses (or 3 TE for that matter) and use the many wrinkles that they can present. I wouldn’t get cute with the wildhorse, and you’ll notice that McDaniels didn’t either.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

We run a 4-4 defense...

for the flag football I coach defense for. We use the 4-4 standard formation. We don’t get too complicated this is only 5-7 year olds. However, we use our ILB’s too do two things. First we have one of the ILB’s shift if they other team goes into a “power” formation to their side. If we play a team that passes more than most teams, then we’ll have them also cover the TE’s on any routes they may run. We usually have our safety play 7 1/2 yard off the ball unless there are obvious reasons to play further back.

We’ve played this defense all year, and have played pretty well defensively. We got our first shut out of the year today, so I’m pretty darn happy right now.

by dpurvis on Oct 24, 2009 12:36 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Congratulations on the shut out!

I haven’t done much at all below the middle school level, but keeping it simple (as you point out) is key.

At that age, “fun” is everything. I like the approach where you show the kids a few little things, but back away during the games and let them play. This is hard if you are competitive (like I am), but at this age we like for kids to learn to like sports, to have fun, and to build esteem.

You are a true community hero for stepping forward to help out the kids. From a law enforcement perspective, I salute anyone who helps kids to have a good time and shows good role modeling skills. The more that kids can participate in organized activities (sports, church groups, scouting, etc) the better the chance they have for a good future.

You rock!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the kind words

At this level, we are trying to get everyone to play at least one entire drive a game on both sides of the ball, to learn the game, and to have fun. We have 18 kids on defense we have to get in, which makes it more fun for all the kids since they get to play. My 6 year old (our backup OLB) came out this past week and said to me “Daddy, I want to coach when I get older.” I just smiled and told him to keep playing and he’ll learn.

by dpurvis on Oct 25, 2009 4:32 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a great age.

I remember my daughter playing soccer at 6. Those were great games. All I remember was parents of both teams (all sitting together) spending the whole game laughing, and kids doing funny things like waving at their parents and the ball would go right past them. That’s a wonderful age.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 25, 2009 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

HT, You are very kind to include me in this along with SWG. Honored quite frankly.

As always, thanks. I particularly liked to hear your thoughts on how you were using this formation in middle school. You can always learn something from going back before going forward

Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.

by TJ Johnson on Oct 24, 2009 12:51 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Aw shucks.

The truth of the matter is, you and SWG write great posts at MHR, and folks learn a lot from you two. I don’t need any credit if I can point a good questioner to other people who have written good works. Many MHR members write excellent posts, and sometimes those posts don’t get enough readership because of the high volume of posts that we have. In particular, I feel bad when a member posts something, and it gets few comments or “rec’s” despite the excellent work that went into the post. In many cases, I don’t get to read many member posts. At least for you and SWG, you guys have built up a lot of credibility, and your posts often get comments and recs in spades. But the staff at MHR wants to give credit where credit is due, and that means directing readers to our fan posts, where much of the quality work at MHR resides.

For me, the point is to teach, not to get credit. In today’s case, I wanted to highlight the work that you and SWG did so that more people know about the game of football, and that beats getting center stage anyday!

You guys rock!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

HT is correct.

We all learn a lot from you and SWG and several other posters here on the MHR. Thank you all. But in my opinion HT remains the best of the best.

It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09

by firstfan on Oct 24, 2009 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well that makes you the best of the best HT fans!

As you know, I love the sigs that you use!

Thanks again, as always, for your kind words.

: )

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

THANKS

great post my high school nettleton raiders are 1-7 0-5 in the 5A east in arkansas they run a 3-4 here their plom no size speed althtem death while most 5A EAST SCHools have 60 players we have 35 their plom also is no falut of their players i bevelive there is a power studdle between the A D and the coach see our A D now was our coach for 20 years 84-03 his name is darrll dover great guy me and him are close but he is also a assintant on the football team our coach now is donnie tennion GREAT GUY a man of high chather was my jr high assintant pricepal been coaching for 30 years all around the state of arkansas was a loyal assintant to dover named coach in 04 almost took us to state in 06 but dover meddles he remind me of al davis because dover ran a fiexbone wishbone type of stuff but tennion spead u out in the shotgun and runs which i think is geneis at the high school level google nettleton raiders jonesboro arkansas 2009 football and u will see how awful we are

okay i have cereal palsy arhrtis and chronic fatiue as well i have a grea life loveing folks some days are better that other days i got a make a wish in 2001 saw my favorive team the broncos was the trip of the lifetime i wish everyone couild gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that ok but i bleed organ and bule

by j-man on Oct 24, 2009 2:55 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Another fine post, HT

You’ve made me so much more knowledgeable in the last 7 months! I know that I can count on you to keep up the good work!

Thanks and rec’d.

" Life is what happens while you're making other plans "

by hairybear on Oct 24, 2009 3:37 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you!

And remember, the best way to learn is to find a local problem and try your hand at being a volunteer assistant. You can learn a lot, help a lot of kids, and perhaps work into a coaching gig.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can see how occasionally shifting into a 4-4 might work

with the Broncos, considering their personnel, namely, Josh Barrett and Wesley Woodyard. Both are exceptionally fast and of small LB size. They could play in the box or shift out of the box and run deep safety.

Nolan, are you listening?

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Oct 24, 2009 3:41 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks AZ!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would likely get chewed up by a pro offense.

Pro level offenses would pass when they saw it. The closest you might want to get would be to run a 46 (which looks like a standard 4-4, but then you would need to run a full blown 46 system to match. You might be able to run it at some smaller college programs, but I wouldn’t expect it to survive a pro level offense.

Running a 3-4 system and a 46 system on the same defense would be near impossible, so I would stick with our 3-4 (5-2) or just go all out 46. As for me, I’m not a big fan of the 46 at the pro level. It can be done, but requires the right people and is very hard to pull of properly. A HS or college program can do it much more easily with success. Just my opinion.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that's what I was getting at with Barrett's and Woodyard's size and speed

At least a 4-4 look or a type of 4-4 shift, where a player such as they, who has the speed to do so, could drop into coverage if an otherwise running play turned out to be a pass.

You are right in that a pro team would destroy a straight 4-4, but a variation of such might be quite effective for a defense such as that of the Broncos, with their personnel.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Oct 25, 2009 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

We ran a 3-3 in my high school football days

Then again – I had a graduating class of 14 and we played 9-man football. It created quite a different feel when you face an offensive line sans tackles. On the flip side, it opened the field quite a bit and the Mike/SS had some work to do.

I love these – thank you once again Steve! Learning to watch football in an entirely different way.

by BroncoTalon on Oct 24, 2009 3:50 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I love the "less than 11" programs.

A lot of heart goes into making a very small program work. Recruiting is very tough, but the style of play is a blast. THe kids also play both sides of the ball, and that is a challenge too. Hat off to you!

BTW, I think the Canadian version of American football features 12 on 12. That must be weird!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great as always HT, but I have one important question?

Don’t you think Mustang formation would have been a better name? It implies the wild horse part and it sounds cooler.

by ThorpeBroncosfan on Oct 24, 2009 5:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

But heck, I think there should be a “hoosierteacher” formation too. We don’t get the naming rights. lol

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I played in a 4-4 my freshman and sophomore years

….but only because my HS played 8 man football from inception all the way up to my junior year. Our first year in 11 man, we got destroyed in every game, as we had 12 people on our team and everyone else in our division sent 45 + to every game.

So, I guess we ACTUALLY played a 4-2-2, rather than a real 4-4…

by ncm42 on Oct 24, 2009 6:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

We use a 4-4 on the MiddleSchool Team I coach.

The high school we feed players to runs a 4-3 cover 2, we run that as our base but since passing is minimal in middle school I roll into a cover three and blitz a corner or we just line up in a cover three to start with. In that case the SS comes up as the fourth LB and we are in a 4-4. Our 4-4 winds up differing a bit from yours in the sense that we run 4 DL, 4 LB, 2 Corners, and 1 safety. Corners have pass coverage responsibility for the outside thirds of the field and the safety takes the middle third. DT’s penetrate and disrupt in the backfield. DE’s penetrate and attack the outside shoulder of the ball. LB’s flow to the ball. Thats the base, and we run several different blitzes out of the 4-3 and the 4-4. Great post Steve.

Our new DOOMesday Defense!!!! YOU LIKE??????????????

by Broncofan on Oct 24, 2009 6:24 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Good system coach!

Knock ’em dead!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Oct 24, 2009 8:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never been in a 4-4 system

but occasionally we used a 3-3 or even a 3-5 type system, depending on how the play was recognized. Great write up Steve, I appreciate it!!

John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)

by Joe Medina on Oct 24, 2009 6:42 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL I played 8-man in high school.

We ran all kinds of stuff. 3-4-1; 3-3-2; 4-2-2; depending on personel and talent available. Mostly we ran 3-4-1

Our new DOOMesday Defense!!!! YOU LIKE??????????????

by Broncofan on Oct 24, 2009 6:49 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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