Enough of the who won the trade debate already.
by diviesti on Oct 26, 2009 1:06 PM MDT
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Everywhere you look, read, or listen the debate "Is Orton better than Culter, and did Denver win the trade?" Am I missing something, did we trade Cutler straight up for Orton? If we do win the trade, do we get a cookie or something for it? This started as a comment on Windy City Gridiron, and I felt it should be a post.
Being a Broncos homer of course I want us to win everything we do, even when we play charity basketball games against the blind. So ya I want us to win the trade, for whatever that means. The problem with saying this is how can you quantify something like this. You can throw out hundreds of stats, Ortons passer rating vs.Cutlers, W vs. L, on and on. The truth is if Cutler wins a Super Bowl, that doesn't mean we lost because he would have won here, same thing goes for Orton. We are comparing apples to bananas. Lets be honest here, before the trade happened we all felt we could at least get two first round picks and a quaterback in return, thus meaning Culter is "better" than the quaterback we would recieve. Yes Orton has played better games so far than Cutler, but then the great debate of Wr's, O-line, and Coaching ensues.
The trade isn't even over yet, we still get their first round pick next year. If Chicago falls apart this year and we end up with a top ten pick, then that pick is a very expensive bust(Ryan Leaf) or a holdout(Crabtree) then some could say we loose. I know, I know, before everyone flames me for saying such a thing about Mcdaniels/ Xanders not trading down for better value, drafting quality(Moreno) players over gifted( Reggie Bush) players. It could still happen, every bust was a sure thing to the coach's months before. Depending how you look into it, our defense could be very different as well. Say we didn't get Ayers, I'm not to sure we would have traded away our 1st next year for Phonz, kinda the cart before the horse theory. Then we can start mumbling 30 different things, that could of, would of, or should have happened that did or didn't happen.
For now lets just say it's worked out great for us, and who cares how it works out for Chicago. Other then the draft pick, I could really care less what Chicago does(standard for me). A few debates I would like to have however; how we won the "free agent" coach's market by getting McDaniels to work for our team, if Orton will be first team or second team in the Pro Bowl. Lets just stop debating about something that is so hard to reference, imposible in fact.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Who Cares...Anymore.
He who will not be named is not coming back.
Besides, Joe Flacco is getting his house ready for some Mile High Visitors!
Lets worry about that.
All Ready!
RIP
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Oct 26, 2009 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions
I admit I was pretty annoyed at the way the entire HWMNBN saga initially began to play out.
But I do believe things happen for a reason and they usually work out as they should. I am done with the entire sordid affair…..
I was on record here and on WCG that I hope the deal works out for both franchises, and I still feel that way. But it looks like the Bears may have issues that run much deeper than just the QB position as was previously thought.
(Too bad they don’t have those draft picks to help with the rebuild….the picks are looking better and better.)
Blues. Cardinals. Broncos. Rockies (when not playing St. Louis!).
Drinkin' the orange kool-aid since the day McDaniels was hired.
Go DU hockey! Go Mammoth!
My thoughts exactly.
It is becoming clear (even to Bears fans) that they are no longer a QB away from being a superbowl contender. They are really going to have to find good value in the mid-late rounds of the draft next year or they are going to be another year behind.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
This trade had and will continue to have a huge impact (good or bad) on both franchises for the next 15+ years...
expecting people to stop talking about it about it 7 weeks into the first season is very unreasonable.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
Ya, and it *really* gets some folks over on WCG riled up.
Granted, it seems to usually be brought up during a Bears game right after HWMNBN throws yet another interception……
Given the timing, I’d be annoyed too.
Blues. Cardinals. Broncos. Rockies (when not playing St. Louis!).
Drinkin' the orange kool-aid since the day McDaniels was hired.
Go DU hockey! Go Mammoth!
by HockeyHippie on Oct 26, 2009 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions
agreed...
when I needed a bye week pick-me-up yesterday I took a lurk over there to see how they were reacting to the disaster in Cincy…good times.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
sign of irration cutler faith #uncountable:
“Peyton Manning couldn’t win behind this line.”
Quote from WCG
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
WCG
I got some good chuckles here from reading our posts yesterday about what they were saying over on WCG. So went over there and lurked a bit.
Pretty amusing :-)
I suppose I shouldn’t gloat though, when you are just a fan, you really can’t control what “your team” does or doesn’t do, it could have just as easily have been us. Thank goodness we have a great TEAM to root for this season!
Oh and thank GOODNESS I’m not a Faiders fan =-O
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
It is irritating
but a lot of us were that way last year too. In a season or two, even Chicago fans will see Cutler for who he really is.
"Horton is win." -Horvil Tiki 4/13/2009
Jedi McD is my hero.
every once in a while :-)
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 27, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Talk about the trade unitl the day you die if you want
I was more concerned with folks saying we won or lost the trade. Didn’t know it was something you could win or loose. I’m actually glad Cutler is no longer are quaterback and Orton is for that matter. One thing that irkes me is when people compare Ortons stats straight to Cutlers stats like that tells the whole story. You point exactly about 7 weeks, its only been seven weeks and we call it a case closed we won.
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
There is a lot of football to be played before (if ever) a winner can be declared...
but we totally won Herschel Walker style ;)
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
I'm sorry but something that is so directly related to the future of this team..
IMO is worth discussing.. I’m not really interested in cussing Cutler.. I do watch his play with interest.. I don’t think he and McDaniels would have made a good match and I’m much happier with McD over Jay..
I do feel like we got amazing value for Jay and that if the trade happened now that same value wouldn’t be there.
There where a lot of things that went in to Jay’s pro bowl year, O-Line, WRs etc but he got most of the credit.. and that worked out well for us.. I would attribute it to fantasy football inflating his value based on worthless stats but i’m sure the bears FO must have watched enough tape of him to know what they where getting and be confident that they could iron out some of his wrinkles.. unless they thought he didn’’t have any which i find unlikely.. add to that that Ron Turner fell out with Jay at college and you have to question the bears FO forward thinking..
I know many people here and on the bears site are tired of hearing about this.. most of that is based on fan vs fan/ team vs team competitiveness IMO but I’m not really trying to say we beat the bears in the trade.. just interested in examining and questioning the trade and celebrating how well it has turned out for us.. so far!
Also i find the pictures you used interesting.. They kind of imply that we 'won' the trade..
.. a depressed.. losing Cutler.. a happy.. winning Orton
Just saying..
Regardless
I will still consider it a win. The bears can win also, but I hated Cutlers demeanor and love how Orton carries himself. I think Orton is a better fit and so it was a good trade. The draft picks are icing on the cake.
by NDbronco on Oct 26, 2009 3:06 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Thats the key right there.. we can both win..
.. except this year.. when we win, period, and they win, occasionally, preferably about 8 times.. leaving us at around the 12 pick.. ;-)
by HorseStance on Oct 26, 2009 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I refuse to buy into the meme...
… that the Broncos traded Cutler for Orton. In fact, the team sent a disgruntled former employee to Chicago for 2 1st round draft picks and a 3rd round pick. You could argue that McD used those picks on Ayers, A Smith and Quinn. Or you could argue we got Moreno, Quinn and next year’s #1. As much as I like all 4 of those guys, it’s still too early to say for sure how that trade worked out.
Then because he needed a QB, McD also traded a 5th round pick for Orton. As far as I am concerned, Orton has proven he is definitely worth more than a 5th rounder.
Speaking of trade winner/loser...
Are we still waiting for a verdict on the Champ for Portis trade? I think both teams came away pretty happy with the trade and nobody can proclaim themselves a clear winner.
Good point,
Hard to say what player has helped their team more, and the longer they have each played for their respective team the more people have forgot about the trade all together.
The more weeks that go by, the less I remember Cutler as a Bronco. So in 5 years when each team has had the ability to adjust their roster accordingly, and for the drafted players to mature it will be a moot point. It will be a tiny memory in everyones mind except for Collinsworth’s, just might be the highlight of his life on replay.
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
If you are interested, I projected that we did based on several factors, but it's an interesting debate
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/8/17/992826/the-dudes-abides-who-won-the
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
Not gonna lie
I still talk abou that trade with my Dad all the time. In the beginning I thought it was horrible but noI realize just how awesome Champ is and how much better he makes the team.
"Can I see Uranus too, Lavender?" -Ron Weasley
I thank the media for hyping Jay Cutler up so much that we actually got Two Firsts and Orton for him….I still say we got way more for Cutler than we should have. :)
Considering how he has played and his history of blowing it in big games…oh wait, Eli Manning had a “history” of blowing it too until he won a Super Bowl.
What matters, is the Broncos win early… :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Cutler is the most OVER RATED QB in the NFL...bar none....lots of hype not much substance....Orton is the Anti- Sulker!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
When your talking about a precieved "franchise" QB...
there is so much at stake that the only relevant factor is the precieved franchise QB’s performance. In this case:
1) If Cutler does not turn out to be a perrenial pro bowl and multiple super bowl champion type guy (i.e., a franchise QB), then the broncos win the trade, regardless of how the draft picks or Orton turn out. If you pay a guy like a “franchise” QB and he is not actually a “franchise” QB, the cost to an organization is so great that it can set it back for years. This situation arises when QBs are drafted #1 overall and bust. Those huge contracts strangle the teams that drafted Couch, Alex Smith (although he looked good Sunday), Carr.
2) If you let a Tom-Brady-or-Peyton-Manning-type player go for any amount of compensation, you lose. These guys are too valuable.
Personally, I think this topic should be discussed, and history will judge this trade favorably for the Broncos, but it’s still early.
I guess a better question would be
If Cutler becomes a “Franchise Quaterback” and wins a Super Bowl or two, does Chicago win the trade. Right now it appears the trade has worked out to our favor, but it’s only 7 weeks into the season. It takes time for teams to build rosters and allow the draft picks to become great NFL players. At what point does it stop being about the player that was traded, and be about the team that was built after the fact. Thats the whole problem with saying who won the trade, it takes time to judge the results. Then when you give it time, to many things will adversly change the outcome anyway.
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
by diviesti on Oct 26, 2009 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Disagree
I like to look at the trade as an organizational and management decision. Remember, Cutler would have played in Denver solely on his contract. Bowlen understood the importance in establishing immediate credibility for the young McDaniels. No one in MHR can nor should pretend they were open to the concept as it developed (its equivalent to complaining about the Duks, Claytons and “insert MSM pundit” for having been negative in the first place.
Organizationally speaking, I think Chicago is at the cusp where change is going to start from the top. Not only is Orton playing well (as he did as a rookie and last year; middle year Grossman received he nod from the coaching staff). S Mike Brown’s talent or ability hasn’t been replaced or addressed via Free Agency or the Draft. LB Lance Briggs isn’t even half the player that was, for a year at least, the better LB and now that Urlacher is down for the year, maybe career as a Bear, hasn’t established himself as a leader let alone the player worthy of any iconic praise. Tommie Harris DT hasn’t been healthy dating back to last year. Take into account Benson is playing great football right now and Forte, who was doing so well last year, and you’ll see the difference in coaching principles and how management ensures key positions such as OL/DL are crucial.
I understand your bias and love for the Broncos, we all have that love affair for our team. I am more grateful that in the midst of change, we have an owner that doesn’t mettle in football operations and simply surrounds himself w/people who live, breathe and live football. No more to say than that.
What has impressed me about Chicago however is the development of Hester and Bennett as WRs. The OL is atrocious and its really sad that a storied franchise such as the Bears have continued to address issues on their team when they’re actually a problem. This is where Denver is a cut above the rest, to see the product for what it is now and never stray from the big picture for tomorrow.
Say hello to my fast...
Cutler = George
Marty Shottenheimer said that Cutler is reminding him of Jeff George, who he coached at Washington. He particularly referenced how George and Cutler are so moody.
Ocbronc
Can you give me the link for this freference? I still enjoy following Marty so that he will stay out of our division. He wins too many games.!!
Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
I'm more interested in the pick results
I mean, I love KO and I’m glad we have him instead of that other guy, but the way the draft picks turn out is what I’m really looking forward to, and hearing the speculation and analysis and projections about those.
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime.
"Losing stinks" - Josh McDaniels
It's more than just who won the trade
Obviously the fact we have next year’s Bears’ pick keeps this on everyone’s mind, but for me it’s more than just who won the trade. IMO Jay is one of those players who you only like if he’s on your team (much like Rivers). With his pouty demeaner on the field and irritating behavior off it, I just can’t help but root against the guy.
His quotes about not really practicing for the Pro Bowl were just embarrassing for Broncos fans and then his comments about how his teammates wouldn’t stand for him to be traded (or something to that effect) set a new level of self-centeredness. The smartest thing the punk ever did was hire someone to help him with his public relations perception. I firmly believe that the complimentary comments he said about McDaniels prior to the Bears preseason game were written by his PR guy. I almost puked when the MSM said it appeared Jay had matured based on those comments.
by gimmee2 on Oct 26, 2009 6:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Trade is always a win win
Trading in football is just like any other trade. Whether its me trading money for a burger or a kid trading his slingshot for a soccerball. Both parties have to feel it’s in their best interest to trade or it wouldn’t happen.
Therefore nobody can win the trade, BOTH teams are better off and they both won. We got a quality QB and some picks which we needed. Chicago got a lot of raw talent at QB.
Any debate that is directed at who won the trade should really be centered on who took the most advantage at what they got from the trade. At the answer to that hands down is Denver…so far. One day Cutler may humble himself enought to be coachable and be a great QB, if Chicago takes advantage of his skills they may end up taking better advantage of the trade.
But to say one side won and the other lost is just playing the part of this ridiculous zero-sum game myth people always perpetuate. Just cuz I win doesn’t mean you lose in most things. In checkers and football games it applies, but in few other things.
by Rain on Oct 26, 2009 7:28 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 26, 2009 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
This trade is just like a draft…you really can’t tell how good it is until at least 2-3 years after the fact.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
Unless you are the Redskins under George Allen
The Ken Houston trade comes to mind.
The Herschel Walker trade also.
Fact is that the Cutler trade has hurt the Bears for years. No first round pick for two years hurts a lot. Also, the missed third rounder is at least a good backup and in the past Bears drafts would have been used on a DL or LB, two areas of concern this year.
Just sayin’
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Oct 27, 2009 3:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I do think that we should implement a self-enforced ban on commenting and posting at WCG. There is absolutely NOTHING positive that is going to come out of posting over there. Even comments/posts written with the best intentions are bound to turn out bad right now. It’s best just to stay away…unless you want a thousand giddy Bears fans at MHR the first time things don’t go according to plan for the Broncos (and they are bound to at some point).
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Oct 26, 2009 7:55 PM MDT reply actions 7 recs
totally agree, PN!
Rec’d
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 26, 2009 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I think we can have a good conversation
I am right now with my post they seem to be ok with it
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Oct 26, 2009 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I saw that. I’m not sure I’d say they’re “ok with it”…there are some pretty hostile comments from the natives. They seem to be “ok” with you; however, my concern is the downward spiral that’s bound to occur when another Broncos fan goes over there and gets chippy when he reads all the anti-Broncos fans rhetoric. I guess we’ll see.
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
by PosterNutbag on Oct 26, 2009 8:58 PM MDT up reply actions
We're ok with it!
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
as long as we keep it as logical as we do here on MHR
we can have good conversations.
you don’t go pee in your neighbors yard unless he is a raiders fan!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Oct 27, 2009 1:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Rec'd
When a fan from another team makes a comment, we put up our guard before we rationalize what was even written. They could say how great Denver is, but we will try and read into it deeper. Even comments with the best intentions can find theirselves on deaf ears, human nature I guess.
What bothers me the most is when a Denver fan who rarely posts on MHR goes to other teams blogs and rubs salt on the wound. Then they become a representation of MHR :(
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
by diviesti on Oct 26, 2009 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only winner
Was the media. I have to believe they got some big offseason numbers in football fans tuning in for the “drama”. I’m glad they won though. It inflated hwcnbn’s value and duped Vegas into giving me 40:1 odds for the broncos to win the superbowl.
I don’t mind discussing the trade though. It’s an interesting side note conversation here and there.Judging by the number of commentsit seems to still be an interesting topic to people.
by BroncoInExile on Oct 26, 2009 9:24 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
After what we had to go through this past off-season with every member of the MSM/ Chicago Bears fans disrespecting the Broncos and McD...
I’m going to gloat, and hell yes I’m happy Cutler is sucking it up in Chicago. Every interception he throws, every game he loses brings joy to my life (not to mention help with our first round draft position). I’m so happy with Orton and the 3 draft picks we have received. If you want to ignore the bruhaha regarding this situation, that is fine. But I’m going to shout it from the mountain tops…
THE BRONCOS HAVE WON THIS TRADE!!!
WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pay back is a b*$%#. Go Broncos!
I agree
Paybacks for them signing Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus, both Broncos DC’s in the 1960’s.
Yeah, I’m old.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Oct 27, 2009 3:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Better Quarterback
Cutler is a better athlete. Better arm, More mobile quarterback.
Orton is a better on the field coach.
It’s like the Nuggets. Allen Iverson might have been a better athlete, but Chauncey Billups came in and was an extension of the coach on the court and we went to the Western Conference finals.
"Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel's life. His breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted. " - Tyler Durden
by Plummer's Union on Oct 27, 2009 2:46 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Great analogy.
Blues. Cardinals. Broncos. Rockies (when not playing St. Louis!).
Drinkin' the orange kool-aid since the day McDaniels was hired.
Go DU hockey! Go Mammoth!
by HockeyHippie on Oct 27, 2009 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions
+1
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Oct 27, 2009 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
There are no clear winners per say.
These two athletes are still young and maturing, they both might have exciting careers, we won’t know for years to come. To go over abd crash someone’s party (WCG) just to be vindictive is very wrong and childish. We have the classiest sbn site on the web, let’s keep it that way. You don’t go disturbing a hornet’s nest.
we won the trade, absolutely no question in my mind. We got rid of a self-centered child who was in no way a team leader, in my opinion of course. In return we got Kyle, who is a fantastic leader and a winner and protects the football, to boot. Furthermore, we are getting a first round pick next year, and we got a shot at drafting Robert Ayers, who can be a contributor in our defensive system for years to come.
by JarredBroncos88 on Oct 27, 2009 12:19 PM MDT reply actions
AI to the Nuggest = JC to the Bears
I don’t know how many of you are Nuggets fans as well but if you were think back to the AI trade from Philly. Remember that we had a significant number of Philly fans coming over and thanking us for taking AI off their hands. They told us he was a volume scorer and would never be a winner. And every time they told us that we’d deny it.
“George Karl will make him into a premier passer.” “This is AI’s big chance to play on a talented team!” “We have the best starting 5 in the league now!”
Sounds familiar doesn’t it? The Cutler trade is exactly the same. We saw what Chicago was getting and all they see is the sizzle. Sometimes fans have to learn the hard way. I learned it with the AI trade, growing up in Chicago I hope that Cutler works out much better than AI did here but it’s too hard not to notice the similarities.
by Baelnic on Oct 27, 2009 1:39 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
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