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What was Mike Shanahan's Undoing?

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I was part of the minority that really wanted Mike Shanahan out as the head coach of the Denver Broncos. I have nothing personal against him, and I do hope that he gets another chance to coach or be a coordinator somewhere; I think he would make a fabulous offensive coordinator. There are a number of things that he did in the past three seasons that really bothered me. I am just curious what all of the readers and contributors at MHR think was the nail (or nails) in Mike Shanahan's proverbial coaching coffin. Was it the benching of Plummer in the middle of the 2006 season? Was it the departure of Gary Kubiak? Did Shanahan's ego get the best of him after he won two Super Bowls and three different running backs had 1,000-yard seasons in his system? Was it the imbalanced philosophy? Were all of his players truly happy to be playing for him? Did he have too much say over personnel matters? Or, was it something else?

I personally think it was an array of things that necessitated a change, the benching of Jake Plummer and the way he treated certain players being of most significance.

I would love to hear your thoughts because they are probably way more insightful than mine.

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This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Agreed

There was definitely an ego there, and I think it influenced his judgment heavily.

Check out broncosculture.com for articles, analysis, and opinions related to the Denver Broncos.

by broncosculture on Oct 28, 2009 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

He became Stubborn and attached

Sticking with Slowik, and I hear he is going to be Shanny’s DC at his next job, which shows his stubbornness. Also, he got attached to certain players and made them out to be better than they were. I love Ebenezer Ekuban for his effort, but truth is he wasn’t that great, but Shanny thought he was. Similarly, the team had serious discipline problems. Lots of Broncos in the news and in a negative way.

However, I don’t think anyone can underestimate the loss of Darrent Williams to this team. I think a lot of Broncos did not recover from that and I’m not sure Shanny did either, which would also explain some of his attachment to his players. Frankly if this is the case, I don’t have a problem with it, his death should be devestating, but maybe it’s good to get faces in here who aren’t still coping with that emotional trauma.

"No more my bad just make the play"-McJedi

by RockyMountainThunder on Oct 28, 2009 10:19 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Sticking with Slowik.

I think Shanahan knew it was time to go. By sticking with Slo, he ensured he would be fired- keeping his salary.

by Velveeta on Oct 28, 2009 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...we've been over this a few different times, but here's the short and simple off the top of my head:

1. Unwillingness to hand over the defensive reigns to someone who is very strong in that area.

2. Unwillingness to get either change his methods for drafting / free agency or bring in someone to help in that area (I know his last draft was superb, but for years there were many choices he made that left many of us scratching our heads).

3. Ego – While I think this is actually a strength of his, it ultimately hurt him as he couldn’t see his faults any more and take steps to correct them. I think his firing will help him address this and be a very successful coach again in the near future.

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 28, 2009 11:00 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I know this is old and irrelevant to some, but...

I am a youngin’ at MHR

AND it’s a bye week.

Check out broncosculture.com for articles, analysis, and opinions related to the Denver Broncos.

by broncosculture on Oct 28, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lost his voice

I am not sure I would go so far as to say “familiarity breeds contempt”…but in some sense, his longievity worked against him…he had been in Denver so long, and was so set in his ways that he sort of stopped adapting to the changes in the NFL. And I think his motivational tactics began to wear thin on players he had coached for any length of time….and that sort of spreads even to newer players…I also think he made personnel decisions that changed the culture of the franchise…players like Travis Henry, skill set aside, set the tone for the type of free agent he was willing to work with….the Broncos started having a lot more players having scrapes with the law. McDaniels came in and immediately started adding “leadership guys”. This is clearly a cause and effect sort of action.

None of this is a knock on Shanahan per se. It would be difficult for anyone to have so much success and not begin to beleive that their way was “right”. I really think in the case of the Broncos, a change was needed….Shanahan will lick his wounds and emerge elsewhere as a good coach….but how many coaches in the history of the NFL have managed to have big success at two different programs? ….Shula….Parcells…Holmgren to a lesser degree….the game changes, and it is harder for these guys to change with it.

When the Broncos fired Shanahan….I was initially stunned…mostly because change is often shocking….but I was happy…and I knew he would land on his feet…he is wealthy man and will coach if he wants where he wants….and as for the team, despite the initial turmoil, I felt all along they were on the right course.

What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?

by Hugo Norton on Oct 28, 2009 11:20 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Holmgren

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as head coaches haven’t Holmgren and Parcells had similar success? Sure Parcells has the reputation as a ‘master rebuilder’ but they both won superbowls with their first club and have only shown up in one since, right?

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still...getting there is pretty good

I think you are right…I was shooting from the hip on this anyway….the point is, most of these “great” coaches get one shot and that is pretty much it…few can say they have gotten anywhere near the top with a second team…I suspect Shanahan will struggle with that as well…..helps to have Elway along for the ride!

What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?

by Hugo Norton on Oct 29, 2009 1:07 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

First, perhaps you didn't mean it that way

but opining that Shanahan “would make a fabulous offensive coordinator” is quite a put down. In a similar vein I imagine Belichick would make an outstanding high school football coach. I suspect any team that offered him that job could forget about him coming to work for them in any capacity. Shanahan has already succeeded at a level higher than offensive coordinator. Why did he lose his job? Too many blow-out losses, and a historic end-of-season collapse that ended with one more blow-out loss? Why did his teams become mediocre? GM/control freak Shanahan took over more and more duties and gradually crowded out coach Shanahan, who wasn’t as effective being the coach and all of the above simultaneously. And when the team floundered he made things worse by delegating even less and trying to control even more. By taking more control over defense and special teams, which are not his strengths, he guaranteed that both would continue to underperform. I also question his player evaluations, including those on the roster. I think his erroneous evaluations of the play of Webster and Winborn in particular sent the wrong message to the defense as to what counted as “good play”.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Oct 28, 2009 12:06 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep

I personally still think they might have had success in taking away Shanny’s GM responsibilities but keeping him as the HC. Whether or not he would have been open to that role change, who knows. If wasn’t, then they made the right call. He needed to be taken out of a lot of the personnel responsibilities as it was pretty clear he couldn’t evaluate defensive players effectively any more.

I don’t think the Plummer benching had anything to do with it. It was almost 3 years before his firing and honestly I think most people supported him in that one.

by appleshampoo on Oct 28, 2009 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

He pulled a Carter when he should’ve been looking to Reagan for the answers. And I’m a bigger fan of the former, so the only overtly political part of this post is this sentence :p.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Putdown Intended.

I totally agree with you that ,for a guy with Shanahan’s track record, anything less than an offer for a head coaching position would be an insult. I wish him well wherever he ends up, as long as it isn’t San Diego. I guess the point I was trying to make was that his specialty was always offense (even in those mediocre seasons), and his defense often suffered. If he does become a head coach, the organization that hires him would be well advised to make sure that they have a strong GM and defensive coordinator in place so that Shanahan doesn’t become a micromanager in his next gig which would, once again, negatively affect his coaching.

Check out broncosculture.com for articles, analysis, and opinions related to the Denver Broncos.

by broncosculture on Oct 28, 2009 12:29 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

A major factor IMHO,

was his firing of Larry Coyer. He put the blame for a second half defensive slump on Coyer when it was pretty clear that the loss of Al Wilson was really the problem. Firing Coyer led to the hiring of Bates. That was a disaster, not least because we got rid of talented players that didn’t fit the run contain scheme. While he isn’t the greatest DT in history, trading Gerrard Warren to the Raiders still annoys me and represents the kind of silliness that prevailed with the Bates experiment. When the Bates experiment failed and Bob Slowik was hired we no longer had the personnel to run the 4-3 system we wanted to go back too. While Slowik is not a great coordinator, he didn’t have a whole lot to work with player-wise. Firing Coyer, to me, added to the instability of losing Wilson and was a huge factor in a defensive decline that was a huge factor in Shanahan’s eventual firing.

by jaffe28 on Oct 28, 2009 1:11 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

ack

that post down there belongs here

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

agree with everything but the implication that firing coyer was wrong

coyer couldn’t / wouldn’t make adjustments. remember roc alexander getting picked on all game against indy, where EVERYONE was wondering why he got no help, and coyer shrugged it off after the game saying they chose to shut down harrison? witness the same thing this year when miami rang up 239 rush yards and 45 minutes TOP on the colts this year, and the analysts were wondering why the colts made ZERO adjustments against the wildcat all game.

contrast to nolan, who seems to take input and make critical tweaks, resulting in stronger second halfs.

but generally i agree with you, shanny’s downfall was his miserable judgment of both player and coaching talent on the defensive side.

by ssc on Oct 28, 2009 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The loss of Wilson...

is probably the most tragic career-ending for a Bronco since TD. And had perhaps even more impact on the team.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 1:30 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

three different running backs had 1,000-yard seasons in his system

Actually, he had six…and four of those six did it more than once for him.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 1:32 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right

When I typed that, I was thinking post-TD, but I still didn’t even check on that. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Check out broncosculture.com for articles, analysis, and opinions related to the Denver Broncos.

by broncosculture on Oct 28, 2009 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

that

Is probably Shanny’s biggest contribution to the NFL, and what gets him locked in the hall IMO. He created the tandem back/running-by-committee approach that’s now used league-wide, and even by splitting time in an era of three-down backs he still had a 1000-yard guy every year.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Oct 28, 2009 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mike Shanahan's undoing is his old school philosophy

These young new coaching gurus are what’s happening.

by bfree2bronc on Oct 28, 2009 1:49 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if there was one thing. I mean, it started with the benching of Bubby and starting Greise in 1999, he really lost the locker room that year. Then TD goes down, that’s out of his control, but it led to his downfall. Not worrying about character until it was too late (Daryl Garnder, Dale Carter, Mo Clarett & Travis Henry), it wasn’t until the 08 draft where we started bringing in high character, high motor guys. It was the benching of Plummer while we were in a good position to make the playoffs with a guy who was winning 75% of his games. Or it was any other of the things mentions by other posters above. But you can nit pick any decision in hindsight. Any of those might or might not have had anything to do with how we played the last few years.

In the end it really doesn’t matter what happened, I will always be a fan of Mike Shanahan because he brought us and John Elway the Championship (twice!) allowing Elway to retire after an awesome year and Superbowl MVP. And while I thought it was time for him and the Broncos to part ways, I’ll wish him the best of luck coaching next year as long as he isn’t playing the Broncos.

Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960

by Darin H on Oct 28, 2009 1:59 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Living off of reputation

With a little distance now, can anyone honestly say that Shannahan accomplished anything of distinction after Elway retired? Without going back to check the stats I believe he won only one post season game after the Elway era. Not that he had that many chances – since we had a bad habit of missing the playoffs altogether. Mike got fired for the same reason Dan Reeves did – he went too long between SBs and Bowlen is paying people to get us there not to just fill the seats.

by Flunkie on Oct 28, 2009 2:52 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

He had a better record without Elway

than other superstar head coaches have had without their career-making meal ticket. The Broncos became mired in mediocrity only
after he finally got what he thought was his new meal ticket.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Oct 29, 2009 7:39 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I think it really had to do with two things

One was I think the team had tuned him out, I think that after last season and the meltdown, you could tell the team really didn’t care anymore, which I think is like Bill Walsh said, a HC really has about 10 years before the team just doesn’t listen anymore. The second issue was a reluctance to change coaching, I have seen the whole thing about bad drafts and bad free agents, but the reality is that the past few drafts under Shanny were actually very productive and he had signed some very good free agents too, but everyone remembers the high profile busts. But if you rip him for signing the likes of Travis Henry, then you also have to give him credit for signing guys like Weigman, Lynch, and Graham. I think that he would of been given an extra year had he been willing to get a decent defensive coordinator and defensive coaches.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
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by Broncoman on Oct 28, 2009 2:59 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree pretty much with everything everyone's written

So I guess my vote would be for: “Multiple factors” :D

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by BShrout on Oct 28, 2009 3:39 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

In my opinion

I too was one of the few that wanted him gone. I thought he should have been gone after 2007.

I think Shanahan had 3 things that ultimately wound up being his shipping papers:

1. Ego. You can’t build a successful team if you refuse to admit you have problems. Bob Slowik was a problem. Shanahan wouldn’t part with him, so that’s where that went.

2. Shanahan’s Country Club. You all know what I mean. Injuries can’t ever be avoided entirely, but a proper training camp can be the difference between 4-12 and 12-4.

3. Favoritism. Again, probably not a popular subject, but I believe Shanahan’s blatant favoritism became a problem. To treat your defense the way he did in the past couple years should have been a huge red flag about his ability to field a successful football team.

John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)

by Joe Medina on Oct 28, 2009 3:51 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Shanahan thought that he was untouchable

Shanahan got too comfortable and tried to make minor tweaks here and there instead of making sweeping changes especially on the defensive side of the ball. Nolan proved that sweeping changes were needed in terms of personnel on defense. Shanahan was trying to build an offensive team that could make up for a porous defense. When a coach is too comfortable things get stale and the players reflect the coaches attitude. All this spells M-E-D-I-O-C-R-I-T-Y.

by Adam Manter on Oct 28, 2009 4:47 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree about sweeping changes needed in defensive personnel

but it was McDaniels, not Nolan, who saw the need and made the changes. Nolan was the guy who McDaniels felt could install and run the attacking 3-4 defense he wanted to play, and he also felt that he and Nolan could communicate effectively in preparing game plans, which has been the case.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Oct 29, 2009 7:46 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great word choice

There is no better word (that wouldn’t be profane) to describe their defense from last year than pourous. I was thinking along the lines of “Charmin defense.” :)

Check out broncosculture.com for articles, analysis, and opinions related to the Denver Broncos.

by broncosculture on Oct 29, 2009 8:25 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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