Thoughts, 01.11.09
6-1. Not bad by any margin, but it'd be easy to leap off the bandwagon because, OMG, the Broncos somehow lost! To a desperate Baltimore team! In Baltimore!
Seriously, though, where you play and whom shouldn't be an excuse, because at the end of the day, you just have to do your job (to steal from the new Broncos mantra) and execute. The Broncos did, in spurts, but not enough to beat their opposition.
BAD THOUGHTS (IT TOOK US TWO DAYS AND WE HAD TO GO TO FIVE OR SIX DIFFERENT PLACES, AND WE STILL FAILED TO GET ISIS TICKETS):
The First: The failures of the O-line.
It's disconcerting to have to discuss this sort of topic, considering how everyone felt about the line before, but they were playing well below their usual standard. Although he was only sacked twice, Orton was constantly being hurried. People were already dogging him, saying he clearly couldn't make the deep throw (short memories, eh?), but I can't believe people actually think he's supposed to stand there in the pocket and patiently wait for Marshall to go deep while a man is rushing full speed at him unabated. Especially after we've seen what's happened to a very good Green Bay team this year.
Anyway, unfortunately, the problem for many seems to have been Hamilton. He was the weak link last year (as we all know), but this was because of the standard maintained by the rest of the offensive line; he isn't getting any more love this year than he did last season, though. Someone even asked how long it will be before Olsen or Hochstein starts in his place. A portion of the pressure on Orton came through Ben, and the Broncos' short-yardage problems are being blamed on him, so all this is rather bitter to swallow, because I really like the guy (because of his NFL Europe connections), but his future on the team remains to be seen.
I commented on Mocking the Draft recently, as it so happens, that the team's biggest need right now is interior OL, and recommended drafting a guard early. Guess this shows just how much I know, because in the vacuum of a draft site, I had thought about future players and ignored the ones already on the team, namely, Russ and Seth. Perhaps the Broncos have already addressed this need with them? They have played well from what I've seen (which, admittedly, isn't much), but have they performed well enough?
It must be said, though, that the Ravens' D-line isn't one to be sniffed at, but, again, this isn't an excuse for playing poorly. Not from this O-line, anyway. They're supposed to be dominating the D-line, not the other way around.
The Second: Special teams - tackling
How's this for a hypothetical situation:
Denver scored on their opening possession of the second half. What would it have taken for Knowshon's 1 yard run for a score to give Denver their first lead of the game? Simple. A single tackle. 6-0 up, Lardarius Webb took the Ravens' opening kickoff of the half to the Broncos' endzone for a TD, giving them, a 13-0 lead. All they had to do was make a tackle. Sure, the guy is surprisingly fast, but Larsen's (welcome back!) thundering hit on his next return shows that he wasn't too fast.
Okay, hypothetical thinking is how a loser rationalises his loss by proving to himself how close he actually is to winning (if the ball was batted down, Stokely wouldn't have caught it and taken it to the Bengals' endzone...), so we'll move past it and simply state that kickoff returns for touchdowns are unacceptable. Special teams touchdowns are unacceptable. I thought we were good on ST's now?
I want to say they were just lucky, but that touchdown probably was the difference. The Broncos were playing tight football until then, always within a single score (this is how you win these sorts of games; play it safe, always hanging close, until you turn on the burners right in the end and grab the W.), but taking such a huge lead changed the game. I wonder if the Broncos game-planned for another tight half, and suddenly finding themselves down 13 caught them off-guard.
The Third: Second half team didn't play to reputation.
I wonder if that'll be in a headline tomorrow. It'd certainly be true, although the final score may suggest more of a meltdown than a lack of execution. I'd suggest it was the latter, though... the offense wasn't on the field long enough to give the defense a rest, and Baltimore's offense was happy to capitalise, putting the offense in even more pressure. Their last touchdown, really, could be chalked up to this; the defense, by this point, had been worn down and struggled to put up much of a fight. It would be easy to see the scoreboard and assume the defense simply gave up. It didn't (which I'll get to later). The offense, besides the one long drive, didn't come into its own as it usually does in the second half, and didn't give the defense a chance to rest.
The Fourth: Injuries
Ryan Harris went out with a toe injury. Renaldo went down in the 4th, but later returned. McBean, too, got injured, but I can't verify his status; he walked off under his own power, so he possibly just got winded.
GOOD THOUGHTS (WE GAVE UP IN THE END... WHEN OUT OF NOWHERE, SALVATION CAME IN THE FORM OF ONLINE PURCHASE. D'OH!):
The First: Special teams - punting
All right, some or most people may disagree with me here, but I think the punting wasn't that bad. Folks were complaining that Berger has no leg, as he kept kicking 30 yarders, but I love the alternative: no returns. Unlike previous games, by the time a Baltimore returner got the ball, someone was already waiting for him. Yes, there were times where the returner overestimated Berger's kicking power and had to dash some ways forward to catch the thing, but he didn't threaten to take it all the way. There weren't moments where we all had to breathe a sigh of relief because we were just saved from more special teams embarrassment by a trip.
Besides, hate the punter? That's what stats are for. (Using numbers to distort peoples' perceptions and make them see things your way. ;) )
|
2009 Avg. |
Vs. Baltimore |
|
|
32.5 |
36.3 |
|
|
44.3 |
38.4 |
As everyone already expected before the game, Berger can't kick as far as Kern (although how much of his performance can be attributed to a lack of in-game kicking?), but not by a whole lot. It's a lot closer to 40 yards than 30 yards as many people quipped during the game. (Side-note question: Denver's gross average last year was 46.7. Does anyone know if Kern out-kicking the coverage was responsible for the punting woes last year? I have a short memory, eh.)
Net yards, a more valuable stat, is improved. Not by a whole lot, but enough to warrant Berger's acquisition. At this rate, the Broncos will rise out of the pits of the net yards stat (currently ranked last) some half-a-dozen places.
I agree that even this performance wasn't satisfactory (I want them ranked in the mid-teens, at least), but a lot of people were complaining (every chance they got, yo), and I think it was unjustified. We were calling for Kern to come back, and even Colquitt. Forgetting why they were released in the first place. Such rash decisions and reactions aren't supposed to be rearing their heads in a place like MHR.
The Second: The D.
My biggest worry going in wasn't Baltimore's defense, but their offense. As misguided as this may (or may not) have been, I felt like the biggest things preventing a Broncos victory were the likes of Ray Rice and Joe Flacco. I don't know why, but I just like this would be the most threatening offense we'd face yet. The Patriots may have them beat (wait, we beat the Patriots, and the Patriots beat the Ravens... so... does that mean we're actually better than the Ravens? :p ), but that means I was just as worried about facing Flacco as I was Brady. He's a "playmaker", as you - I mean us - humans like to say, and he certainly showed that ability in this game. But when the defense was given the chance to properly show its stuff, it didn't flinch.
Broncos turn the ball over in their own territory? Sure. The D hands them a 3 and out and a field goal attempt. Thank you, come again!
I'm really proud of this D, because, yeah, in the end they were tired, and they were spent. But when it was a full-strength offense going against a full-strength defense, they did their job. I don't blame them for giving up points in the end, and I hope you don't, too, because when they had given their all to keep it close, the special teams kicked them in the teeth, and the offense showed them a glimmer of light before leaving them in the darkness.
And, no, they didn't give up. They didn't just roll over and die. You can see this in the dying minutes of the game if you want proof. They were giving up yards, yes, but not without a fight. Running backs with fresh legs pounded the ball past their clasping hands as they gasped for air, but they still got up. And they would still fight on the next play, pushing over the O-line and taking down the backs in their own backfield. No, they were tired, but they sure as great Hades didn't give up.
AND SO, I RANDOMLY MUSED, THERE ON THE STEPS AT THREE-TWENTY IN THE MORNING, THAT I STILL HATE CREDIT CARDS, BUT THESE RANDOM OBSERVATIONS MAKE UP FOR IT IN AWESOMENESS (OR: ISIS WAS BRILLIANT. REALLY):
1) Onto special teams again... Berger's second punt was nearly blocked, and it's crazy how close it came. At first, it looked like Ed Reed either got there late or just missed it, but it actually went between his outstretched arms. Between his arms! Seriously, an inch in any direction and it would have been blocked.
2) Phonz got away with a really doozie. He clearly held Mason's shirt on a play, and not only didn't the officials call DPI, but Mason let his emotions and get the better of him and got flagged. He was furious, and after complaining to them unsuccessfully, he threw his helmet on the sideline, drawing the flag.
It was a bad call by the refs, honestly, but Mason should have kept himself in check. They were balancing their calls anyway by letting the Ravens hold Doom and get away with it all day long (I kid... mostly).
3) I hate the word "paydirt".
4) The Broncos one turnover was a Moreno fumble on a screen. I really don't know if it could have resulted in anything else. Knowshon didn't see Reed's hard hit coming as he turned and didn't even have the ball probably set yet. Coach McD challenged if it was a complete pass, but the ruling on the field was upheld. Ed timed it well.
5) Orton, with all his immobility, managed to scramble for a cool 11 yards. He felt the pressure coming (obviously), and scrambled out of trouble before outrunning all the defenders for a 1st down.
6) The song played after the 1st quarter was Underoath's Coming Down is Calming Down. I'm not a fan, personally (though I do know them), and I never really pay attention to the songs they play (except for a Chicago song they played on Monday Night Football, I think, that sounded really cool. Sadly, I never got the title of this song to listen to it properly) when they go to the break because I've muted by then (or before), but I had no idea Underoath were that popular. They certainly aren't here, far as I know (and I don't know much, because I'd never have figured something like deathcore to be as popular as it appears to be), which is probably like Gallows, who're a punk band from the England I suspect to be not quite as popular outside the country as inside.
7) This number is older than Elway. And so should be retired. For Elway.
8) BDawk could have had a sack, but Flacco got lucky with a bail-out throw to his running back that went for a respectable gain. He tried it again later, but ended up doing some ballet move and getting whacked by Le Kevin Smith.
9) The defense really beat the Ravens' offensive line on a good number of plays. Although their numbers aren't too shabby (most of them came in the end during clock-control time), Baltimore's running backs were getting slammed in the backfield more than they would have liked. "Garbage" players like Kenny Peterson blowing past his man for a tackle for a loss is always great to see. These... uh... Garbage Men are doing a good job of cleaning up the field of ruddy quarterbacks and running backs.
10) Evidently, at his ripe, old age, Ray Ray still hits like a train.
11) So, let me get this straight, the NFL needs official air-fresheners?
12) Although we'd hoped he learnt to start just running downfield in previous games, Marshall still danced a couple times today. He needs to have a couple lessons with Bobby Turner...
13) Hillis had 2 catches for 10 yards. Well, it's something, right? Same amount of catches (and yards) as Eddie, and one more than Scheff. Hopefully, now that Spencer's back, this'll trend up.
14) Speaking of Larsen, how's it hangin', man?! Spencer had a couple hard tackles on special teams (he had a big one to stop the Ravens' second kickoff return cold) and already made his presence known out there in his first game back.
15) One of the plays in which Orton had enough time to throw it deep ended with a DPI call on our old buddy Foxworth. I can't say whether it was the right call or not (my feed had started lagging), but at least he got the win in the end (which must be some sort of weird consolation for me, I guess...). I've always liked the guy, so I hate to see him getting hosed by the officials (or not, depending on your perspective).
16) After a running play, Knowshon got up and went to the huddle with Ray Lewis hounding him. You could clearly see the intensity in Ray's eyes, and Moreno just laughed it off (or tried) on his way back.
17) Something happened to my, um, friend, during the game. He saw something on his girlfriend's shirt and, thinking it's cough syrup (she has a cold, he... uh... tells me) wiped it off with his finger and licked it off. Turns out, although it did taste like cough syrup, that it was actually, eh, lube on her shirt. So I, uh, I mean, my friend, went and tested them both for taste similarities, and yup... if you ever wanted to know, certain brands of personal lubricant do actually kinda taste like cough medicine, for some reason. Who'd have known! Well, my friend does now...
WOWZERS, NOW THAT'S LATE!
Well, it's about time I head off.
If someone tells you the sky is falling, they're probably right, unless they're referring to the Broncos. This was a hard loss, but it will show what sort of team this is. Bad teams crumble, good teams learn how to become better. If they're as good as we think they are, they'll have learnt something about themselves, and they'll know it's time to get back to work. Because they have a job to do.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
12 recs |
68 comments
| Add comment
Comments
I think u have a point about our dee
So we let up 6 points in one hawe cant blame the kickreturn td on the Dee and the last td was just b/c we were dead worn out. So im blaming them for 10 points in the second half and 6 in the first. Not bad at all especially considering Flcco pulled out a couple rabits.
by Calibroncoboy on Nov 1, 2009 11:34 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Well, you can't really blame them for the 6 in the first half...
Only 3. The other field goal came off a turnover, and all they did was force a 3 and out…
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 6:27 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
very true. so i blame them for 13 points. not too shavy.
by Calibroncoboy on Nov 2, 2009 6:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all.
This just goes to show how much an offense can be responsible for a defense’s performance (as if we didn’t learn this last year…).
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 6:30 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Was it wrong to root for Rice to score the last second TD?
I have Rice on my fantasy team and even though he chews up yards between the 20’s,TD’s are few and far between.I wasnt cheering or anything but I wasnt too disappointed when Rice scored the last TD
by OrangeCrush4082 on Nov 2, 2009 12:05 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with Spock here.
Rice not scoring that TD would have made the defense’s stats look a tad prettier. :p
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 6:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with most points.
Especially this one:
3) I hate the word “paydirt”.
It’s so freaking annoying. I hate it. HATE IT!
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
by Joe Medina on Nov 2, 2009 12:18 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
It's like they got tired of "endzone" and needed to invent some trendy new word for it.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 6:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
nice job man - rec'd
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Nov 2, 2009 7:33 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Tim/Zappa.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 6:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
As a progressive metal fan
I have to admit that I am not aware of Isis, but I will check them out now that you have made me aware (I’m listening to Dream Theater’s latest effort as I type this).
Looking at the stats I was surprised to see that the TOP was only 33 to 26. It felt like BAL had the ball a lot more than the Broncos did.
by DE_BroncoFan on Nov 2, 2009 8:00 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, they're a little harder to categorise than simply "prog".
Their earlier albums can be considered “sludge metal”; their two mid-period albums, Oceanic and Panopticon, are “post-metal” (they pretty much helped invent or at least firmly establish that genre with those two); and their last two are somewhere between progressive and avant-garde.
So, this said, I’m not sure if they’ll appeal to you. Post-metal isn’t nowhere near as technical as the likes of Dream Theater, it’s a lot quieter in places and way louder elsewhere, and perhaps even straight-forward (although this can be debated) compared to them, but it’s really enjoyable to listen to when you get the hang of it. ISIS can be a very rewarding experience if you give them time to grow. It’ll feel like you’re floating in an endless ocean… before evolving into a psychedelic journey through an overdriven bass and thumping tribal drums.
I’m listening to Dream Theater’s latest effort as I type this.
What do you think of it? I’m not yet sure if I prefer it over Systematic Chaos, but I have to say, I’ve probably had as much fun listening to this one as anything since Scenes of a Memory. The lyrics may be as cheesy as ever, but they’re still on top form.
Looking at the stats I was surprised to see that the TOP was only 33 to 26. It felt like BAL had the ball a lot more than the Broncos did.
The difference doesn’t feel that large to me, but I know what you mean. That drive in the 4th just felt like an eternity.
(By the way, if anyone is interested in exploring something new, give maudlin of the Well’s Part the Second a listen.
motW (sic) released two brilliant albums in 2001, before breaking up while writing their next one in 2003. Most of the remaining members went on to form Kayo Dot. Anyway, they got back together for a short time this year to record Part the Second, which was funded by 87 fans.
It’s only available in digital form, and is free to download on the band’s website. So, basically, the only thing it will cost you is your time.)
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 7:16 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd send you a PM to discuss music, but I can't figure out how to do it here
It still sounds like I would like ISIS since I enjoy Tool, Porcupine Tree and Lacuna Coil; thre outfits that I wouldn’t classify as true “prog” either. I gave a listen to two tracks on youtube – Holy Tears and Not in Rivers, but in drops. I tend to like more discernible vocals, but this is a small sample set.
What do you think of it? I’m not yet sure if I prefer it over Systematic Chaos, but I have to say, I’ve probably had as much fun listening to this one as anything since Scenes of a Memory. The lyrics may be as cheesy as ever, but they’re still on top form. bq.
BCaSL is a very enjoyable listen. Musically DT is in top form and I particularly enjoy the instrumental sections of TCoT. Lyrically this is DT’s cheesiest album, but being a fan of Shadow Gallery, I can usually look past cheesy lyrics and still enjoy the songs. I like the album more than SC. The only prog outfit that I found that is NOT writing cheesy lyrics recently is Pain of Salvation, who I would recommend highly to any DT fan who hasn’t given them a listen.
by DE_BroncoFan on Nov 3, 2009 11:53 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't actually think you can.
Oh, I love Porcupine Tree, The Sky Moves Sideways was stellar. You may be out of luck with ISIS, then, because vocals aren’t a very high priority for them. In any case, try Dulcinea, Wills Dissolve, and, a heavier track, Threshold of Transformation. Try not to dwell on the vocals, though, and just try to “get” the atmosphere they’re trying to put forth.
BCaSL is a very enjoyable listen. Musically DT is in top form and I particularly enjoy the instrumental sections of TCoT. Lyrically this is DT’s cheesiest album, but being a fan of Shadow Gallery, I can usually look past cheesy lyrics and still enjoy the songs. I like the album more than SC. The only prog outfit that I found that is NOT writing cheesy lyrics recently is Pain of Salvation, who I would recommend highly to any DT fan who hasn’t given them a listen.
I’ve never really minded the cheesiness, at all, it’s become a part of the music, so you can’t expect it to not be there.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 3, 2009 1:17 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys should check out:
No doubt you’d like ’em:
Andromeda
Age of Nemesis
Kopecky
Tyr
Koyaanisqatsy
Symphony X (<— probably already know those guys)
Opeth (see above)
Blind Guardian (see above)
A bit of a stretch, but probably more up your alley than most’s:
Obscura
Nevermore
Zero Hour
Korpiklaani
Spiral Architect
Cynic
Twisted Into Form
Exivious
Sorry I recently lost both of my hard-drives with no backup, which means I lost my entire 15,000 song library, so those are just off the top of my head.
DT=meh shrug IMO solely thanks to LaBrie (and it’s not just the lyrics). LTE is soooooo much infinitely better. That’s why I loved the box set of their latest release—instrumental versions disc.
New Album Side Note: On Rite of Passage (or w/e, the first track if that isn’t the name) Portnoy was going to have Michael Akerfeldt (of the aforementioned Opeth) growl that side-poem thing at the end. Instead, Portnoy rapped it because, “if I’m going to do it live anyway I may as well do it on the recording.” If there’s one thing worse than LaBrie’s vocals it’s Portnoy’s.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 4, 2009 9:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahahaha.
LOL, funny that you mention Cynic. I’m a total Cynic geek (note the avatar), they’re my favourite band (ahead of King Crimson and Intronaut).
And I recognise a good amount of those names. What do you think of Atheist and Textures (because of their relation to Cynic)? Textures is an interesting listen (especially one of their singles, Awake), what I’ve heard, anyway.
Sorry I recently lost both of my hard-drives with no backup, which means I lost my entire 15,000 song library, so those are just off the top of my head.
Wow, sucks, man. Hopefully you can get to rebuilding it soon.
DT=meh shrug IMO solely thanks to LaBrie (and it’s not just the lyrics). LTE is soooooo much infinitely better. That’s why I loved the box set of their latest release—instrumental versions disc.
New Album Side Note: On Rite of Passage (or w/e, the first track if that isn’t the name) Portnoy was going to have Michael Akerfeldt (of the aforementioned Opeth) growl that side-poem thing at the end. Instead, Portnoy rapped it because, "if I’m going to do it live anyway I may as well do it on the recording." If there’s one thing worse than LaBrie’s vocals it’s Portnoy’s.
I know exactly what you mean. LaBrie’s vocals are really divisive; it’s a cliche, but you either love them or hate them. I happen to love them, but I know many people despise the music just because of his voice.
Hm, nice story, I didn’t know about that. Opeth actually toured with DT again for the 2009 version of the Progressive Nation tour, so he could have well come out to do that part for them. And although I agree that Mike should probably be singing less on their albums, I’m not entirely surprised that he chooses to (disregarding his ego). He’s a character on stage. At their Manchester show, he pretended to pick his nose with a drumstick before singing that part, so it just seems wacky enough for him (although the above logic makes sense, too :p ).
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 3:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike is awesome...
a model of how a star should interact with his fans. Though I found Akerfeldt funnier in Calgary at PN ’08.
Atheist is good, though for that tech-thrashy-ness I like Watchtower a bit better. Saw Cynic this year too, too bad it wasn’t with Malone. It was, however, with Textures’s old bassist; he along with another Textures guy and Timon and another guy from Cynic (can’t remember the specifics right now) just released the debut album from their new instrumental ‘fusion metal’ band Exivious. You’d love them. Haven’t heard much Textures, from what little I’ve heard they’re another band (worse so than DT) where the vocals are, for me, a block from enjoying the music.
FWIW I love early-DT, including the vocals. Hell I still love DT despite the vocals. Train of Thought is the album that opened my eyes to the pure awesome that is progressive metal (of all stripes). In the studio, he wasn’t too bad until he started favoring some super-poppy vocal styles.
If you like all these bands, you’d love Obscura. Imagine Cynic and Necrophagist and Atheist and Death all thrown together in one chaotic jumble, with a little dose of Opeth on the top.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 5, 2009 5:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I agree.
I love his inter-song chatter. And all the sexual references. (Hahaha.)
Aah, okay. No, I doubt Malone would tour with them, he has time to write music, but he’s too busy teaching to go touring.
Yeah, I have that album (I do enjoy it, although it does sound a tad like Spiral Architect without the vocals and Steinbergers instead). The drummer (Stef Broks) is in Textures, and Tymon helped record Traced in Air while Robin is Cynic’s touring bassist.
On Textures, it really depends on which album you’ve heard. Their first album (Polars) featured a heavy death metal sound, but they have trended towards a slightly poppier, proggier sound since then.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 6:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my next question is...
is there a band that I listed you hadn’t heard yet?
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 5, 2009 7:16 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh...
Kopecky, Koyaanisqatsy (not the band, anyway), and Korpiklaani. So… basically… anything with a “k”. :p
Oh, and Twisted into Form.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 6, 2009 9:19 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
One of the few things to look forward to this Monday!
Love your posts, man!
I’ll admit that yesterday I was completely underwhelmed by Berger’s performance. My concern however, was not as much with his distance as his windup. The man takes an eternity to get the ball off.
I’ve since realized that I need to remain aware of some context here. BAL has always been good at blocking kicks, and Reed is one of the best. So perhaps Kern would have struggled to get the ball away against those guys as well. Who’s to say?
Anyway, perhaps I just need to give the Mitchster a few more games before I vote to run him out of town.
We’ll see.
- Jason
Horton is WIN - HORVIL TIKI
by jubei on Nov 2, 2009 8:34 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Jubei!
I’ve since realized that I need to remain aware of some context here. BAL has always been good at blocking kicks, and Reed is one of the best. So perhaps Kern would have struggled to get the ball away against those guys as well. Who’s to say?
Great thoughts right there that I hadn’t considered. Colquitt, too, would (or may) have had some trouble there, because his windup is also too long, so that’s something else to consider.
I’m not into endless apologies, but I do believe in patience. And we need some of that with, eh… the Mitchster.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 7:45 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks TB!
Great post as always.
The First: The failures of the O-line. Yes, Hamilton is not playing well. But I saw Ryan and Kuper on their behinds a couple of times yesterday. Against another team our OLine might not have had the same problems, but the physicality of the Raven’s DLine overwhelmed us yesterday. Right now I agree that OLine guard(s) will be high on our draft/FA need list.
Offense in general. The Oline needs better play. But our WR’s are not running good routes, blocking well downfield, etc. The TE’s are ok, but the WR’s need coaching.
Defense. I’m not overly worried right now.
Special Teams. This group needs serious coaching and motivation. What was Eddie thinking coming out of the endzone and being tackled at the 10? Mitch Berger did fine.
by Endzone on Nov 2, 2009 9:10 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Eddie was think 100+ yard TD
I think his 2 returns in the last game carried over to his judgement in bringing that one out this week. I know he’s trying to make a big play but he still needs to know when to take a knee.
People can use statistics to prove anything, 87% of all people know that.
by c_style on Nov 2, 2009 6:10 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Endzone.
The First: The failures of the O-line. Yes, Hamilton is not playing well. But I saw Ryan and Kuper on their behinds a couple of times yesterday. Against another team our OLine might not have had the same problems, but the physicality of the Raven’s DLine overwhelmed us yesterday. Right now I agree that OLine guard(s) will be high on our draft/FA need list.
Sucks to hear (as I’ve said before, I like the guy), but I guess everyone reaches that point in their career. People wondered if the phyisicality would be too much for the Broncos, it appears it was (though hopefully not overwhelmingly so). I just wonder about Olsen, though… just how far he is in his development.
But our WR’s are not running good routes, blocking well downfield, etc. The TE’s are ok, but the WR’s need coaching.
This is news to me. I’m not really one to follow the WR’s during the game, so I’m relatively ignorant of their overall performance during a game, but I hope it isn’t so. It would explain a few things, though…
What was Eddie thinking coming out of the endzone and being tackled at the 10?
I’m thinking the same thing as c_style. I think Eddie had the word “jackpot” running through his head when he got the ball.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 7:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
look at the Eagles
They went to Oakville and lost to the raiders! They beat the Giants pretty soundly yesterday. It happens. The players and coaches, rightfully so, won’t admit that Baltimore was just more into playing well across the board than the Broncos were. Orton was flat. Royal danced around too much on returns. Berger wasn’t that good, but he did get in some game time practice!
Without looking, I’m pretty sure the Broncos lost all 4 of the Stats that Don’t Lie.
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
by Trogdoor on Nov 2, 2009 9:29 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Patience
If the Broncos lay an egg vs. Pittsburgh on Monday, then I’ll be worried. I think they’ll play well, and win. If they play well, it’s close and they lose, I will be much less concerned, than if they play again like yesterday. It’s a huge test coming up Monday.
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
by Trogdoor on Nov 2, 2009 9:39 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’m putting a lot of yesterday on the long trip east, combined with the clock change. But I think the defense played well against a very good offense. Let’s see what monday night brings.
IT is, and it's impossible for IT not to be.
Parmenides (5th Century B. C. Greek)
by bradley on Nov 2, 2009 10:01 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree, Trogdoor.
Only bandwagon fans and idiots are thinking about jumping out of the back window of the bus right now. Like you said above, it happens, and the most important thing to consider is how they react to the loss, not if they’re suddenly doomed to a losing season.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 7:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
The term "Any given Sunday" means what it means.
We got beat in every area and that’s it. We lost. We can analyse this game till hell freezes over and the result will be the same. We lost. Now it’s time to move forward and learn from our mistakes and face an equally tough team. The Pittsburg Steelers. We can beat this team with sound fundamental football. Time of possession, Turnovers and 3rd down execution.
by bfree2bronc on Nov 2, 2009 10:58 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Well said, Bfree.
And all true.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 7:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks TB
I missed the game because I was in rehearsal, so its useful to see a level-headed evaluation of what happened that I couldn’t see for myself. I’m concerned about our special teams – second game in a row we’ve allowed a return for TD. That’s a huge concern. But I’m not overly worried right now. We are 6-1 and we lost to a very good team on the road. Now we get a chance to see how our Broncos handle a loss. I hope we take the experience and use it to improve on the mistakes and weaknesses that were exposed.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 2, 2009 11:41 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
No problem, CK.
It’s what I’m here for. :p
I really think they weren’t expecting the returner to be that fast. I mean, he was seriously quick, and he didn’t waste any time switching on the burners. They weren’t caught napping the second time, though, and he didn’t get anywhere on his next return.
I hope we take the experience and use it to improve on the mistakes and weaknesses that were exposed.
Agree.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 8:02 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice observations, TB
Some random comments: I voted for Institute of Science and International Security. Shows you what I know. Although Berger doesn’t have as strong a leg as Kern, the difference isn’t as large as their gross averages suggest. If you hit the ball with the same amount of force, but with a higher trajectory, it’s not going to go as far. If Kern’s gross had been 42 rather than 44, his net probably would have been 4-6 yards higher and he’d be on a 6-1 rather than a 1-6 team. What worries me about Berger is his windup is as slow as Colquitt’s. I’m not too worried about the other deficiencies that showed up Sunday. When the other team is more intense your strengths are negated and your weaknesses magnified. If we play them again I expect our pass-blocking will hold them at bay and our run-blocking will open holes, but not this time. They needed and wanted it too badly. That’s not an excuse, just a reason. They had more to lose from a loss.
If every game they’ve both been in before Sunday it seemed to me Buckhalter was more effective than Moreno. I don’t know what their stats were Sunday, but for the first time I thought Moreno edged ahead of Buckhalter. Several times he made something out of nothing. I didn’t blame him for the fumble. Anyone on the team, with the possible exception of Orton, would have fumbled on that play. (How Orton manages not to fumble, even when he takes a completely unexpected hit, like on the first play, is pretty remarkable.)
I wouldn’t say we have a weakness on the offensive line, because Hamilton would be the best lineman on some teams, but he’s our least dominant one. He and to a lesser extent Wiegmann are the last vestiges of our previous pattern of small, athletic linemen. He’s just too light to withstand bull rushes from the monster tackles in this league. Clady, Harris and Kuper are the strengths of the line. Hamilton might be pretty effective if moved to center when Wiegmann retires, and one of the back-ups (Polumbus?) or a yet-to-be-drafted player could move in at left guard. But Hamilton might not be that far from retirement himself. He doesn’t seem to be as effective as he was two years ago.
I’d like to see us beat Pittsburgh handily, not just eke out a win. If we lose or even struggle to win I’ll worry. i don’t want us to pull a Giants and go into a tailspin. I don’t think it will happen. McDaniels is too good a coach. I think the special teams TD was less a sign of continued weakness in that phase and more a sign of how much Baltimore’s intensity gave them an advantage in all phases of the game.
All in all a nice summary of a game I couldn’t wait to erase from my DVR.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 2, 2009 3:36 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, spock, and wow, what a great post.
I voted for Institute of Science and International Security. Shows you what I know.
You weren’t the only one, so don’t knock yourself too hard. ;)
If Kern’s gross had been 42 rather than 44, his net probably would have been 4-6 yards higher and he’d be on a 6-1 rather than a 1-6 team.
Wow, that’s rather amazing. Denver would be ranked in the mid-teens, then. It’s really disappointing that he just couldn’t adjust to get a higher trajectory.
When the other team is more intense your strengths are negated and your weaknesses magnified. If we play them again I expect our pass-blocking will hold them at bay and our run-blocking will open holes, but not this time. They needed and wanted it too badly. That’s not an excuse, just a reason. They had more to lose from a loss.
Good thoughts, and true. Denver’s defense might not be the best, talent-wise, but their intensity (courtesy of Dawkins – Mario Haggan, apparently) makes up for it. It’s easy to see how Baltimore could have won when considered like that.
If there’s a rematch, say, in the playoffs, I may have to remember this.
If every game they’ve both been in before Sunday it seemed to me Buckhalter was more effective than Moreno. I don’t know what their stats were Sunday, but for the first time I thought Moreno edged ahead of Buckhalter. Several times he made something out of nothing. I didn’t blame him for the fumble. Anyone on the team, with the possible exception of Orton, would have fumbled on that play. (How Orton manages not to fumble, even when he takes a completely unexpected hit, like on the first play, is pretty remarkable.)
I completely agree. (Buck had 16 yards on 8 carries, and Moreno had 39 on 10 carries.) Moreno just runs harder, to me, and gives a little bit more effort on every run, but isn’t making something out of nothing what makes a good back great? It’s what made Barry Sanders great. For all the yards he lost during a game, he would still pass up going through daylight (Bobby Turner would have had a heart attack trying to coach him) for a wall of bodies, only to evade every tackler and go for a 50-yard gain. Some players just have “it” (for lack of a better word), and perhaps Moreno is beginning to show that (if he hasn’t already).
I remember someone saying Knowshon may be branded a fumbler now or is getting close to it, but this one really can’t be what proves he’s a fumbler.
…and one of the back-ups (Polumbus?) or a yet-to-be-drafted player could move in at left guard.
Isn’t Olsen the back-up at left guard, with Hochstein at right guard? (Lol, I probably look like I’m on Olsen’s street team, but I need some more knowledge on the guy.)
McDaniels is too good a coach.
Honestly, this is what I’m asking myself. Something I always remember is Adam Schefter saying (paraphrased), “A league source (it was possibly another coach or a GM) I spoke to said McDaniels will be one of the best coaches in NFL history.”
It’s a bold statement, and one that struck me hard on the forehead during the off/reloading-season. It’s much too early to think like this, but it does make me think. Just how good is he?
Again, great post. You really gave me a lot to mull over (as you always do).
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 8:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
More on Moreno
Thanks for the stats. I see my impression wasn’t totally off the wall. Moreno has run harder and with more power from the beginning, but until the Ravens game Buckhalter read his blocks, picked his holes and timed his initial cuts better, and those abilities, products of his experience as a pro, outweighed Moreno’s raw talent. But Moreno has narrowed the gap enough for his raw talent to give him the edge. He doesn’t have blazing speed but is extremely quick (and powerful for his size) and if he breaks through the line clean he’s 10 yards upfield in an instant. His most striking skill is his ability to make tacklers miss his legs as he cuts upfield. Somehow he moves them out of the way without dancing. His below-the-waist agility is remarkable, and since he avoids tackles without dancing or slowing the rest of the defense doesn’t have time to close in and help. As he develops his ability to read blocks, pick holes and time his initial cuts he’ll have fewer short gains and more breakaway runs, and will put enough stress on defenses to make Orton even more effective.
Marshall could learn a lot from Moreno. He’s trying to change but still dances too much. Remember the pass he caught heading toward the left sideline, in which he tried to dance as the tacklers converged, and the run sort of petered out? Moreno in the same situation would have used quick, subtle lower-body fakes while trying to slash between tacklers. Marshall has amazing agility for his size but not Moreno’s quickness, so in his case it would be nice if he’d just lower his shoulder and knock people backwards. Consistently finishing pass plays that way would tend to fire up his teammates and demoralize opponents.
I can’t help wondering if Schefter’s league source was Belichick. Whoever said it, it’s a amazing statement and looks prescient given the remarkably rapid and thorough turnaround McDaniels has engineered. That’s how great coaches typically start out. They know exactly what they want to do and the effect is immediate and electrifying. I’ll say one thing. Opposing teams who think they’re snookering McDaniels (da Bears?) had better keep checking their pockets.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 3, 2009 11:26 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
I knew Polumbus wasn’t the backup at left guard, but I just like the guy and took a flyer. I wondered how good he might be if they switched him to guard. Call it a not necessarily well-informed guess. I’ll be very interested to see what McDaniels actually does
do next year, as I think we need more power at that position.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 3, 2009 11:37 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent perspective on Moreno.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 3, 2009 9:02 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
TB
Can’t rec this quick enough!
1 brief comment on punting. There is a high correlation between winning and net yards than there is between gross yards, so your instincts are spot on!
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by TJ Johnson on Nov 2, 2009 4:43 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Dude!
Good to know I my line of thought was right. You won’t believe how long I spent googling the difference between “net” and “gross” yardage because I never think about the punting game!
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 8:47 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Isis isn't prog
:p how were they btw?
And I think that Underoath’s popular because they’re Christian. And because the ’x’cores are mistaken for metal here in the states because they’re so much more popular than real metal.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 2, 2009 8:42 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Depends on your definition of prog.
And this means we could be here all day. :p
“Progressiveness” is such a difficult thing to define, especially with its relation to avant-garde and technical music, but anyway, my one-sentence definition of it is something that attempts to “progress” a genre of music and shape it into something better (“better” is relative, though). Avant-garde differentiates from prog in that it uses non-standard instrumentation while prog doesn’t normally, and technical metal, say, is just highly technical but not a conscious decision to try to change a particular genre.
So, I do consider ISIS prog, because Oceanic, although it may be a poster child for post-metal now, helped change a part of metal when it was released. And, in any case, I can’t consider Wavering Radiant true post-metal. There are elements, but geez, it’s just something else… something… I dunno… the same thing I felt when I heard King Crimson for the first time. Whatever it was.
The best way I can describe it is as a religious experience. They don’t talk to the crowd at all, and hardly even acknowledge them. Essentially, they’re in their own little bubble on-stage; and you’re forced to create a bubble of your own. So, instead of following the singer or clapping along or whatever, you just close your eyes and let the music take you. It’s crazy. The guy next to me actually apologised after a song for bumping into me a couple times, because he had found more in the music than I could have. As the songs evolved, he would sway wildly and seemingly follow the flow of the music in a subconscious state. He looked like he was in a trance.
It’s weird, because I’ve never witnessed this before, but they just offered you the music, nothing else. I noticed a few people just headbanging along and trying to create a moshpit (seriously), which I guess was their thing, but the people close to me (we were right by the stage), they weren’t interested in anything but the music. And, you know, the music was awesome, but the atmosphere is what made it. It was just two different entities feeding off each others’ energy, the crowd would be moving to the rumble of the guitars and Aaron Harris’ beat, and the band (especially Turner) would keep getting crazier as the night went on.
Like I said, a religious experience. A roomful of people opening their bodies and minds for a higher power known as music.
(ISIS isn’t my favourite band – though they’re close – but the show was that good. And sorry if I’ve gone a little too far now, Broncos fans. :p )
And I think that Underoath’s popular because they’re Christian.
Well, that would explain it.
And because the ’x’cores are mistaken for metal here in the states because they’re so much more popular than real metal.
LOL. There’s a -core for everything now, it’s like you can’t be popular without playing in a -core genre. And when Cryptopsy forsakes technical death metal for deathcore (and Flo Mounier trades in his long hair for a fashionable, short haircut), it’s only a matter of time before Slayer decides to become a thrashcore band.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 2, 2009 9:56 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I am big fan of Underoath and am as surprised as you were to hear their music playing in such an odd setting. I would never have thought of them as wildly popular, especially since their last two albums have been more metal then their earlier works. They have shifted from metalcore to more metal over the course of their last two albums.
Also, love the Gallows. I am always happy when it pops on my iPod. It is good punk music that is a tribute to the originals.
by Ramblin'man on Nov 3, 2009 7:56 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Aah, okay.
I haven’t heard them in a long time, to be honest, probably since 2005 or ‘06. Didn’t really click with me and I moved on.
Also, love the Gallows. I am always happy when it pops on my iPod. It is good punk music that is a tribute to the originals.
Yup. This way of doing things has been missing lately, too many popular bands are obsessed with their image and leave the music as an afterthought.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 3, 2009 9:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I am assuming the last album you would have heard is They Are Only Chasing Safety, circa 2005?
I hope the Gallows keep making music and do not return to tattooing anytime soon. They need to stick around for a good while. It would be nice if some of their music, or attitude even, would rub off in the current punk scene. It could use a good cleansing.
by Ramblin'man on Nov 4, 2009 6:42 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably, I guess.
Totally agree. These bands need a good kicking, to remember what good punk used to sound like (and that it didn’t die in the 80’s).
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 4, 2009 9:18 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my lawdy lawd.
I need to make a confession here, MHR…
You should never ask me anything related to film or music, because this is what happens. I lose control of my self control and the ability to keep my posts short and precise. It’s a disease, I tells ya!
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 3, 2009 9:06 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 3, 2009 9:23 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm finding your musical discussion fascinating
albeit elusive. My tastes must be pedestrian and dated compared to yours: Pink Floyd, Scorpions, Def Leppard, Ozzie, Phil Collins, Elton John, Moody Blues, early Dylan, and much more that I can’t think of or don’t know the name of, some of them recent discoveries (probably shouldn’t have admitted that). One thing, though. I find Metallica extremely annoying, as they seem to prefer to growl atonally rather than sing, or is it just the hostility in their music I’m reacting to? Two of my daughters love them, so maybe I’m just being my Dad. He used to think rock was just noise.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 3, 2009 11:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
If you think that that Metallica (James Hetfield) is growling atonally
then the “lyrics” in a lot of the music that had been discussed here would sound like the grunts made by dying animals. :-)
by DE_BroncoFan on Nov 4, 2009 6:25 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Those aren't pedestrian at all.
Great music doesn’t fade in quality with time, and you just listed some great bands right there. Pink Floyd’s The Wall happens to be the right on the top of the stack of albums next to my desk right now (although it isn’t by far my favourite Floyd album). And Scorpions, Def Leppard, Elton John, Moody Blues, and Bob Dylan are all artists I appreciate (some more than others, though).
Something I’ve learnt while listening to music, especially since I’m still quite young, is that age isn’t related to quality. The younger generation often eschews bands formed as recently as the 90’s because they’re “old”, while the older generation refuses to let go of the music of their youth and embrace newer bands.
Both generations suffer from this, because they end up missing out on a lot music they may otherwise have enjoyed. That’s why I recommend you google any of the bands here that intrigue you (or click the motW link – ;) – which is actually closer to Pink Floyd than it is Metallica), because you never know if you’ll actually end up enjoying what you hear.
On Metallica, I can’t blame you, but a key difference between pop and heavy metal is that your focus has to be on different things. Pop is about melody and vocals (i.e. it’s about the singer), while metal is about the riffs (most of the time) and occasionally melody. So, although James Hetfield’s “singing” does get incredibly annoying, you should be listening to the guitars instead, because they’re what makes the music enjoyable. The same goes for a lot of other metal bands, they prefer to emphasize the instruments more than the vocals, and listeners, not being aware of this, may listen to their likely sub-par singing (compared to the best pop/jazz singers) and immediately judge the music to just plain stink.
However, as aforementioned, I can’t blame you for not liking Metallica. There was this stretch from the mid-to-late eighties where everything they produced was made of gold (they made what I’d consider to be masterpieces in Master of Puppets and …And Justice for All), but they soon abandoned metal and the resulting music was, to be honest, horrible. They’ve been trying to recapture that edge they had back then, but it’s mostly ended in failure.
That said, and trust me on this, there are many things worse than Metallica that your daughters could be listening to. At least they used to be artists once, unlike a fair majority of popular bands that prefer to follow trends.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 4, 2009 1:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Good answers TB
I agree with most of this. especially the comparisons between generations. I am 47, and I enjoy a great variety of music. I grew up in a house that had C&W from one parent, and Classical from the other. Up until Middle school I was a “Bubble Gummer” and listened to AM pop music. Just before High school it was Zeppelin, Deep Purple. Then later moved to UFO, Ozzy, (Michael Schenker and Randy Rhoads are great guitarists) Scorpions, Tesla, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, (Steve Harris is my favorite Bassist). From there it was anything from Testament, Metallica, to Anthrax, Metalchurch, and on into DRI. I’ve moved on to Flogging Molly and Street Dogs, but still I like a lot of blues too. Eric Clapton, BB King, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Kenny Wayne Shephard, Storyville. I also dig a lot of Irish stuff too. Anything from the Pogues, to the Corrs, Gaelic Storm, Sinead O’Connor and Enya. I like U2 also, but IMO, their stuff is turning to crap. Melody and harmony mean just as much as the instumental, but a good riff drives it home.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 5, 2009 9:09 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Kirk.
The bands you listed do indeed come from a great spectrum of genres. Besides Pink Floyd (and their influence here is marginal), I didn’t inherit any of my parents’ musical taste.
Melody and harmony mean just as much as the instumental, but a good riff drives it home.
This is so true. The first part, especially, is evidence of the fallacy in judging music before you’ve heard it. Everyone has different taste in music, because they prefer one thing over the other, but they can’t really say if their music is “better” than any other person’s, because each facet is just as important as the other. We, and the musicians, just value one over the other, and that’s where our preference lies.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 4:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 5, 2009 5:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
All of you make good points
I followed Drizzt‘s suggestion below and did some comparison listening on amazon.com’s mp3 section. Listening to Necrophagist and then Metallica made me realize I overstated my aversion to the latter. They do sometimes annoy me but The Unforgiven, for instance, is a great song. I just bought it, in fact. For me at least Necrophagist’s vocal style is just awful. The atonal, monotonic growling comes across as an affectation, besides being a pain in the ear. And every song sounds like the same drum solo, with the drums being way too busy. I like a distinct, heavy beat and good guitar instrumentation, such as at the end of most Pink Floyd (e.g. Comfortably Numb) and Dire Straits (Brothers in Arms) songs. Led Zeppelin can be nice that way, too. I really like the reverb in MBD’s Let Me Out (from the movie Cursed), the kinkiness of the Weird Al Yankovich-produced If God Smoked Cannabis, and the intensity and general sound of Cinderella’s Nobody’s Fool. I like bands and songs that are novel and fresh, and don’t care much for groups such as Green Day and especially Cold Play, whose sound is pleasant, inoffensive and boring.
I run across interesting songs in various settings. While watching a movie about Solidarity the instrumental background as the workers poured into the docks, with metallic clashes and clangs serving as the beat, blew me away, and some sleuthing revealed it as Jean Michel Jarre’s Industrial Revolution Overture. At the end of an episode of Friday Night Lights the local HS band’s forgettable music fades out as the slow, heavy, sensual beat of Soulsavers’ Revival fades in. I knew instantly I HAD to have that song. I rediscovered the Marmalade’s Reflections on my Life as the credits rolled on a movie about the making of Deep Throat and the attendant social issues and pressures.
I really don’t focus on vocals much unless they’re annoying enough to intrude, although I tend to be aware of Elton John’s or Phil Collins’. Although I don’t go out and pursue new music experiences as avidly as I do history, philosophy, sociology, rhetoric, etc. of science, or cognitive developmental psychology or medieval history, I do get nice surprises from time to time by following links or suggestions in my various discussion groups, including this one. Hence my tastes aren’t as broad or as knowledgeable as those of some of you in this thread, I enjoy being surprised with new sounds.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 6, 2009 8:05 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Listen to Emperor or Necrophagist, Spock.
Then go back and listen to Metallica. You’ll find you have a different outlook on Hetfield’s vocal style.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 4, 2009 9:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, leave Emperor alone.
Some of their stuff is pretty brilliant. This, on the other hand…
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 4:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I like both those bands
I’m just saying that Hetfield has a melodic singing voice in comparison.
And isn’t ‘Christian Black Metal’ an oxymoron?
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 5, 2009 5:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone except the people making Christian black metal thinks it's an oxymoron.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 6:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue...
there’s a difference between ‘prog’ and progressive. Or that there’s a difference between progressive/prog rock/metal the genre(s) and rock or metal that’s progressive.
Prog metal is a direct descendant of prog rock (Yes, Marillion, etc.). Its songs are longer (usu. considered ‘too long’ for mainstream play) and though they (usually) have a singer the length tends to be a product of long, sometimes technical instrumental sections.
‘Pure’ prog metal/rock bands (in my book; god I wish I had my music library as a reference):
DT, Andromeda, Age of Nemesis, The Flower Kings, Yes
Bands that fall under the umbrella defenition, but aren’t necessarily wholely described by it:
Zero Hour, Obscura, Opeth, Tyr, Moonsorrow, etc.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 4, 2009 9:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Hm, interesting point...
I understand what you’re trying to say, and agree to a degree (I used this very argument when discussing the “progressiveness” of Between the Buried and Me and whether they should be considered prog). However, I want to know, what’s your definition of prog versus art-rock versus avant-garde?
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 5:40 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Er, I forgot...
I just noticed one thing, a fair number of those bands appear to subscribe to the “Fates Warning” sound.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 5:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
According to my Rock History textbook
Art rock=prog rock. So I dunno. Above all genres just generally suck in that they make me tend to go overboard. I classify (-ied I guess tear) my library by [Genre] – [Subgenre], and I think I had ~40 different metal genres :p. For me avant-garde is a bit overused. By your model the Beatles were. Somewhere along the line I’ve gotten the sense from something that avant-garde means incorporating highly technical/far-off/way out there jazz elements. Think Weather Report. So Cynic would be a prime example by my standards (and, according to yours, wouldn’t be—besides the vocoder).
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 5, 2009 6:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean, lol.
Sometimes I get so obsessed with having to fit bands into specific sub-(sub-)genres, that I’ve gotten to the point where I try not to think about it as much. Bands like Tiamat and Ulver just give me headaches.
And the biggest problem is the subjectivity. We both have different definitions and standards, so it’s impossible for us to agree (e.g. I disagree that Weather Report is avant-garde; I’d call them jazz-fusion), unless we both come upon a definition we both agree on (and even then, the definition will likely still be subjective).
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 5, 2009 7:11 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I hate...
the Music Genome Project (pandora) so much. I wind up hearing Slipknot on my Cynic playlist because they both contain ‘overdriven guitars’. They look only at elements, have no real expertise on any underground genre, and don’t analyze who influenced who at all. All in an effort to ‘objectively’ categorize music which can’t be done.
Oh and I think Weather Report is first and foremost jazz fusion. I was just giving you the weird, probably not-at-all accurate idea that pops into my head whenever I hear ‘avante-garde’.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Nov 5, 2009 7:20 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right.
They don’t seem to understand one of the most important aspects of music (and any other art), i.e. humans. Calculating all these elements may be an interesting endeavour scientifically, but it doesn’t matter realistically, because they don’t analyse the soul of the music, or the philosophy of the musicians or what they’re trying to convey.
For example, ISIS may well fit into the same category as Cannibal Corpse because of their guitar sound, but in reality, they’re closer to Godspeed You! Black Emperor (love this band), not because of their connection in the post-rock/metal genre, but because of how they effect their listeners. They strive to achieve the same amount of emotion in their music (not that I’m saying CC doesn’t, it’s just a different emotion, then), and this provides an obstacle in trying to create a perfect categorisation through some mathematical algorithm without human interference, you need humans to categorise music. Because the most important thing is how it affects us, not the “Funky Dual Guitar arrangement” in some song.
Aah, okay. No problem, then. :)
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 6, 2009 9:44 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
If that's what heavy metal is
I guess I’m not part of its constituency. I guess my daughters would say I just don’t understand. :)
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Nov 4, 2009 7:29 AM MST reply actions 0 recs































