Shallow Thoughts & Nearsighted Observations
Happy Tuesday, friends. After being up late, and watching a hard-fought game go awry, I bet you're pretty bleary-eyed, and grumpy, but let's try to make this a good day. I don't want to think that the Broncos have fallen into losing habits here, and I really don't think that's the case.
Of course, those who speak, but don't know what they're talking about, will start screaming about how the Broncos have been exposed, and they're a fraud, and every other damn thing. A few persistent issues have emerged, but they can be corrected. If anything, losing back-to-back games against good teams can teach you a great deal about your own team.
Let's reflect on this, as I know the coaching staff is, and the players are. Next week, the Broncos face the Redskins, which presents a great opportunity to get back on the winning track. After that, San Diego comes to town. The Broncos still control the AFC West, make no mistake about that.
On the other side of the jump, we'll break it all down. Ready..... BEGIN!!!!
1. It's now midseason, and the Broncos are 6-2, and in first place by a game, and having beaten San Diego on the road. Think back to August, and if I told you that's where the Broncos would be, you'd be happy to take that deal, right? It's a little less great to win the first 6 and lose the last 2, but whatever.
I mentioned some issues, and I want to talk about them briefly. I think all are fixable in the second half of the season.
a. Ben Hamilton is getting to be pretty useless, and I think it's time to see what Seth Olsen has. Hamilton has gone from being above-average before his concussion-driven missed season, to average last season, to decidedly below-average this season. Every time the Ravens and Steelers needed to get pressure on Kyle Orton, they did it over Hamilton. Every other team in the NFL has seen that, and will try to replicate that strategy.
From former NFL scout Daniel Jeremiah, during the game:
I don't know what Olsen can do yet, but he's definitely bigger and stouter than Hamilton. I have to think he can anchor better than what we've seen from #50. I am pretty sure Russ Hochstein isn't the answer, but I'd like to see what Olsen looks like.
b. The Broncos need better execution overall on offense. The scheme is fine, and the players are fine, they just need to make the plays that they have a chance to make. They have had some bad penalties, some poorly-timed drops, some slip-and-falls in the running game putting them off schedule, and lately, some bad throws. Plays like Brandon Stokley coming just short of a first down, and Hamilton getting called for a (really questionable) holding penalty on a converted 4th-and-5 are what has been hurting the Broncos offense. The coaches need to send the message that if the players who are playing don't execute, they'll find somebody who will.
c. Signing Mitch Berger was a big mistake. I think it's worth working out some other punters, but really, I liked Brett Kern. If somebody better than Berger is available, I think he should be brought in. Getting a good punter needs to be a high priority in the offseason, too.
d. Interestingly, short-yardage offense has improved during the two losses, as the Broncos have shown a willingness to throw some in those situations. It is still a concern going forward, though. Olsen may help here, if he is given a shot.
e. No-huddle offenses have been problematic for the Broncos the last two weeks. They limit their ability to disguise coverages and rush packages, and they also make it hard to substitute as much as the Broncos want to. Not every team is effective in the no-huddle, but just about every team the Broncos might see in the playoffs is. They need to figure out who their best base defensive group is against the no-huddle.
I think my underlying thought right now is that the Broncos probably aren't quite ready for the Super Bowl, but they hung with a team tonight who is a real championship contender. They beat New England a couple weeks ago, who is a real championship contender. They beat Dallas and Cincinnati, who at the least are good teams. The Broncos have a ways to go, but as first halves of the season go, you have to feel pretty good about theirs. It's not time to start anything over, or blow anything up. It's time to make a few adjustments, execute better, and keep working toward winning games.
2. Information from My Eyes, Steelers at Broncos.
a. Did I mention that I think Mitch Berger sucks? Nothing has particularly changed for me on that score. John Bena coined a new term last night, Brett Kern-backers. I liked Kern, but I don't think I am a Brett Kern-backer. I am a guy who wants a consistent good performance from the Broncos punter, whoever it is.
Philosophically, not a single player or coach on this team means more to me than the team itself. I don't care who is doing it, I just want it done. As much as I love John Elway, the team always came before him to me, too. Part of his greatness, though, was that he'd never make you separate him from the team.
b. It didn't get mentioned a lot, but Tyler Polumbus struggled at RT, especially in the second half of the game. LaMarr Woodley got a lot of pressure and forced a few key throwaways. He'll be okay against most teams, but this was a tough situation for him. Ryan Harris's absence was most definitely felt.
c. I liked the work of both Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal in this game. They consistently did a good job getting open and catching the ball. Marshall had the one drop, but it was a good effort for him overall.
d. I thought D.J. Williams had his worst game of the year, by far. He was taking bad angles all night, and didn't look like he had a prayer of getting off a lot of blocks. I'm admittedly not generally his biggest fan, but he's had the best year of his career in 2009. Monday night, not so much.
e. Wesley Woodyard played a lot more snaps than he's used to, and I thought he wore down in the second half of the game. The Steelers played a tremendous amount of 3 WR sets, which kept Andra Davis on the sideline, and Woodyard in the game.
f. Kyle Orton was actually not too bad for most of the game. He had 2 bad throws, and about 3 bad decisions (one of them was picked off). He was pretty sharp the rest of the night. He needs to cut out the bad decisions, but I was generally a lot happier with his performance tonight than I was against the Ravens. (I don't care about statistics, of course.) Nobody is saying they're thrilled with his ultimate performance, of course, but there's more nuance to the situation, than just looking at the stat sheet.
g. Rashard Mendenhall was the primary reason the Steelers won the game. He got going in the second half, and it forced the Broncos to be more aggressive in the box. I used to think very little of Mendenhall, but he has improved a lot. He runs with vastly better patience and body lean than he did even just a month ago.
h. The Steelers also have themselves a find with Mike Wallace. He's very dangerous for a 3rd WR. They don't do a lot of traditional slot-type stuff, and in nickel offense, if anything, Hines Ward is their slot guy. (I think making definitive distinctions between #1, #2, and #3 WRs is silly.) Wallace has great speed, and he showed good route-running skills Monday night.
i. I liked what I saw of Ty Law in his limited action. Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins both mostly struggled in the game, neither making a great impact. Champ ought to be embarassed by letting Ward jump over him in garbage time. He knows better than that. He also got beat in man-to-man coverage several times by Santonio Holmes. Andre' Goodman was good in this game, though, even beyond his interception.
j. The Broncos use of the "mush rush" was very good in the first half, and very bad for most of the second. Robert Ayers played a key role in containing Ben Roethlisberger when he as assigned that duty, and that's what he was doing when Kenny Peterson knocked the ball free.
k. The Broncos got hosed on the Gaffney challenge, and also on the Haggan fumble recovery. Don Carey has joined my list of bad referees. I like how a return team becomes an intercepting team. I can't believe that he's related to Mike Carey, who is excellent. And he's the older brother? Wow.
3. Information From My Eyes, Other Games:
a. I watched a lot of the Green Bay-Tampa Bay game Sunday, for a few reasons. I haven't seen much of the Bucs this year, and I wanted to look at Josh Freeman, who I liked a lot coming out of college. He looked like a rookie at times, but he showed a lot of positives too. I thought he looked poised and confident, and I am not that surprised. I remember when he beat Texas as a freshman, and commanded the game. (My buddy lost a grand on the game, and he called me frantically looking for NFL advice for the next day, to "get back even." It was a debacle. I don't give gambling advice anymore, because of that weekend.)
Anyway, Freeman looked like a star that day in 2006, and he looked like he may be one someday in the NFL on Sunday. I think Tampa did the right thing, giving him some time to learn from the sideline, but it has to be Freeman Time the rest of the season.
b. I loved Raheem Morris's line after getting his first victory as a head coach.
Statistics are for losers, and today, we're winners.
And then, there's Chicago Bears lover/reporter/enabler/apologist Brad Biggs of National Football Post, after his beloveds got blown out again.
That's positive news? The Bears got smoked, again, Brad. Their best player, who is supposed to always play well, performed close to expectations. It's only positive news if he is on your fantasy team, which is why I don't really like fantasy football. (Well, that and the dorktastic "experts' you have to tolerate on TV.)
Cutler played alright, but he didn't do anything to elevate the play of anybody else, as usual, and the interception he threw in the 4th quarter did kill the Bears' chances of coming back.
It's amazing how the Bears team has assumed the personality of the 2008 Broncos. There's a good chance they'll get blown away on defense, and Cutler is almost definitely going to need to carry the offense. In my business, we contract with companies to take over non-core operations. We call it a lift-and-shift. You terminate your employees who work in a call center, and we'll instantly hire them. They'll work for us, and you'll pay us a fee that is less than what you pay for this operation. Meanwhile, we'll optimize, and reduce the headcount, and correspondingly, the costs.
Everybody considered Cutler's acqusition to be a lift-and-shift. The Bears got a franchise QB. Imagine what he'll do on a team that plays good defense and runs the ball. Football is such a multi-variate system, it's really amazing.
c. I would really hate to be a Bears fan. They have no high draft picks this year, and suddenly a lot of roster holes to fill. They need 3 or 4 new starters on their offensive line, to begin with. Orlando Pace is done, Josh Beekman and Roberto Garza were never starting-caliber players in the NFL, and Olin Kreutz is getting close to done. I don't care for Chris Williams, either. He's looked passable at RT, but if he was worthy of his draft slot, he would have bumped Pace, because it's clear as day that he isn't good enough. You wouldn't use a #1 on an RTO (Right Tackle Only), unless it was Jeff Otah.
They could also use some WRs, some secondary players, and a pass rusher. We're not asking for much, right?
Chicago has a cash-poor ownership group, and the cold weather and their ugly uniforms don't tend to help draw free agents. (Yes, both things matter. It's part of the problem in Cleveland too.) I just don't know how you can bring in enough players there to improve for next season.
d. On Monday I read a lot of epitaphs about the Chicago defense, which didn't get into a lot of the "why" they're so bad. As I was explaining to a friend a few days ago, a defense has to have all 11 players working well together, in order for it to be sound and effective. Because defense is fundamentally a reactive mission, there are many inter-dependencies among the three levels, and communication, like-mindedness through practice, and discipline make all the difference. That sounds simple, and it really is.
First of all, you'd better either be good against the run with 7 in the box, or have a big-time safety who can move 12 yards from a cover-2 shell to the line of scrimmage really quickly. The Bears can't stop the run with 7, so you know they'll have 8 in the box. Then, there's the passing game. When a team can't rush the passer with 4 players, they need to blitz with numbers. When they blitz with numbers, it makes it hard to play soundly in zone coverage, so you mostly have to start playing man coverage. When you play a lot of man coverage, you'd better hope you have the athletes to cover the other team's athletes - and chances are, their #3 and #4 options are better than yours. That's a simple fact of it being harder to find players with coverage skills than it is to find guys who can run a route and catch a ball, when he knows where he is supposed to go.
So you can't stop the run, you can't get pressure with 4, you can't play zone, and you can't play man. All that's left is to guess at what the offense is going to do, and play for that. The obvious problem there is what happens when you guess wrong. You get exposed, and give up huge plays. That sounds a lot like the 2008 Broncos' defense, right?
To apply this to the Bears, they used to get pressure with their front 4, but Tommie Harris is having a bad season. He was a healthy scratch for the Cincinnati game, reportedly because of some attitude issues, and they got lambasted. Then, he got ejected over some extreme foolishness 1 minute into Sunday's game. The Bears again got crushed. Harris is among the best 3-technique DTs in the NFL, when his body and attitude are right.
With no Harris, Alex Brown and Adewale Ogunleye have struggled to get any pressure, so the Bears have blitzed, ineffectively. They have all these tall, slow CBs who can't do anything except play zone coverage, and they got shredded in man-to-man on Sunday, as they did against Cincinnati. If you decide to be a cover-2 team, you'd better play a lot of cover-2, because your personnel can't hold up playing man.
If Harris can manage to get his body and mind right, and have a dominant second half, he could personally bring a soundness back to the Bears that could send them on a 6-2ish run in the second half to finish 10-6. The more likely outcome is that he continues to sulk, the Bears continue to get gashed, and they finish 7-9 at best. And the Broncos have a nice draft pick. Thanks, guys :)
e. Funny story. My brother Chris (who did join MHR as Chris911, incidentally) and I were talking on the phone the other night, like we do sometimes.
Chris: You know, Jay Cutler has a losing record in games where he throws for over 300 yards.
Ted: You know, Jay Cutler has a losing record as a starting QB in the NFL.
Yessir. I love that draft pick more and more every day.
f. Remember the spring of 2008 when many wanted Denver to become Vanderbilt West? It hasn't worked out so well for Chicago. Earl Bennett's ceiling is to be an average starter, if he puts it all together. He can't get off bump coverage right now, whatsoever. He also runs bad routes and drops the ball a lot. In other words, everything he was supposed to do well, he doesn't. Yes, I know he had 7 catches for 93 yards Sunday, but the vast majority of it was in garbage time, against soft zone coverage. (And, yes, wise guys, I know, most of the game was garbage time.)
Chris Williams, I already discussed. He has definitely been a disappointment. This year, the Bears took D.J. Moore, a CB, who is somehow not good enough to beat out any of the pu pu platter of guys who take turns opposite Charles Tillman. He has been a gameday inactive all season, and is not even a special teams contributor.
I watched the Florida-Vanderbilt game Saturday night, and was reflecting on this. Vanderbilt has no hope in the SEC. They can't recruit talent that is nearly good enough to compete, and most of their guys have tended to underachieve in the NFL. They are on my list with Texas and Ohio State of schools whose players I am naturally suspicious of, although it's all for different reasons.
I wonder if Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, Rice,and Baylor ever thought about forming a football-only, high-SATs conference. Actually, this year, Vandy would be in the bottom half of that league, too.
g. Staying with the college theme for a minute, the best all-around QB I have seen this season at any school is Cincinnati's sophomore backup, Zach Collaros. He has completed 76% of his passes for 1,229 yards, with 10 TDs and 1 interception in the 3+ games he has appeared in. He has also rushed 43 times for 281 yards, and 4 TDs, while only being sacked 10 times.
Cincinnati's original starter, senior Tony Pike, is expected to start this week, although head coach Brian Kelly did cop to it being a tough decision. Pike is likely to be drafted on Day 1 next spring. Collaros is going to contend for the Heisman Trophy next season, and he'll be a high pick too, when he decides to leave school. He's the total package, with an above-average arm, very good poise, and outstanding accuracy and athleticism. The only knock on him is that he's 6 feet tall, but he has some definite Drew Brees-like qualities as a thrower. This is a 75-yard TD run against a South Florida team with lots of athletes. The guy is real.
h. A guy I really like on an otherwise not-great unit is Atlanta Guard Harvey Dahl. He has been getting very good pad level, and driving guys, in helping Michael Turner have his best two games of the season. I beat up Sam Baker for his pass protection last week, but he did well in the running game Sunday, too. The Redskins are normally solid against the run, but Atlanta gashed them repeatedly.
i. Michael Lombardi stole my thunder, which is an occasional hazard of writing for Tuesday mornings. (The) Other smart analysts see(s) the same things and beat(s) you to talking about them sometimes. Ray Lewis definitely looks like he's doing it more on guile and want-to than skill anymore. I respect his effort greatly, and sometimes he makes a huge play, like against the Chargers, but he's clearly hit his downside. Big up Lombardi, for consistently seeing what the reporters don't see. (By the way, it's weird and unnatural to see Lombardi stand with a mic and interview players and coaches for NFL Network. Stop the madness, and be an analyst, Mike. You're better than some locker jockey.)
j. I was pretty critical of Dallas' Mike Jenkins earlier in the season, and he deserved it. Lately, though, he's been playing fantastic football. He did a great job Sunday night, and was the largest part of the Dallas secondary's outstanding effort not to give up the big plays that Philly wins with every week.
k. The Eagles are reputed to be a West Coast team, but they are not that, and never have been since Mr. Game Management, Andy Reid, came to town. Donovan McNabb isn't a West Coast QB, who does really well with timing throws. The Eagles are a vertical, downfield team, and they finally have guys in DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, and Brent Celek, who can get down the field and make the plays they want to make.
l. By the way, everybody knows I like Tim Tebow, but McNabb is the guy who Tebow most reminds me of. They played in similar-ish option-heavy offenses in college, and they have very similar profiles as throwers coming into the NFL. Tebow's stats are down this year, mostly due to bad pass protection, but he's throwing the ball better than ever when he gets some time.
m. The Chargers might be back. I haven't seen their LBs look as good as they did on Sunday in two years. Some of that may be due to the Giants offensive line, though, which is good in the running game, and below-average in the passing game. All this stuff about them having the best line is hogwash. (I've actually seen Michael Lombardi say that this season.) They have a natural LG, David Diehl, playing LT, and he gets owned by good pass rushers.
n. Brandon Jacobs looks really slow to the hole this season. He was never quick, but he's a different player. I have to wonder if he is hurt. Of course, I am prejudiced against tall RBs, because, definitionally, it's easier to hit them, than it is the compact guys. It's fair to say Jacobs has never been a favorite of mine.
o. I'd like to say that ST&NO favorite Alex Smith has established himself as a clear-cut solution at QB for the 49ers, but the fact is, they've lost all three games which he has played in. Two of the three interceptions he threw on Sunday were off the hands of his own players, so I don't really put those on him, personally. On the positive side, that play he made for a TD pass at the end of the first half was an All-Pro caliber play, that not many QBs could make. He kept himself alive with his feet, and made a perfect throw on the run.
This is what I know about Smith. His biggest problem is that he struggles with the mechanics of drops from under center which are more than 3 steps. It's not natural to him, and his footwork is slow, like he is thinking about it. That got him sacked on A-gap blitzes two or three times Sunday.
Smith is much more comfortable from the shotgun, and I think I would go to a medium-gun alignment with him, that is often called the Pistol. It's run a bit at some colleges, notably Nevada, and the Chiefs used it with Tyler Thigpen last season. The QB lines up 3 yards behind the center, with the RB 3 yards behind the QB. It provides better directional evenness to your running game than lining up in a full shotgun with the RB to one side or the other of the QB.
Smith can do all the things you need your QB to do; it's just a matter of putting him in position to be successful. I'll be interested to watch this game on Thursday night, against Chicago, because he could have a huge game.
p. I did like what I saw of Vince Young, again. He has played like he's fine with being part of a conservative game plan, which is what he needs. The option stuff he was running with Chris Johnson was effective, and he did hit Justin Gage deep on a couple throws. One, in particular, used all of Gage's vertical. He was actually a starter on Missouri's basketball team in his college days.
q. The Titans are suddenly playing some defense again too, especially Michael Griffin at safety. I also was impressed with William Hayes, who has taken over at LDE for Jevon Kearse, who may have finally had it, at this point. The Titans are a threat to make noise as a spoiler in the second half of the season. The return of Cortland Finnegan has helped them a lot, too. He's not the greatest cover guy, but he's a hitter, and he is always close to the ball. He compares favorably to Asante Samuel in that way.
r. The Panthers just make me shake my head sometimes. They are almost completely back to their 12-4 level from last year lately, except for their QB play. They really erred by not getting one, but John Fox and Jake Delhomme are almost married. Delhomme is going to cost Fox his job, for his sentimentality.
Remember when the Chargers whacked Marty Schottenheimer coming off the 14-2 record? It was the right move. So would cutting ties with Delhomme have been, after last season. Of course, the Chargers blew the second part by hiring Norv Turner. The Panthers will get their chance to do something in the offseason, but they have no first-round pick. If San Francisco decides Alex Smith isn't their guy, he'd be perfect for a team like Carolina, who runs the ball and attacks downfield off of play action. Marc Bulger might be a possible fit too, as the Rams will almost certainly be drafting a QB this year. The Panthers will likely need to get a retread, though.
s. The Saints deserved to get beat on Sunday, but they managed to win anyway. That's something championship teams do, is win without their best stuff.
t. The Texans are really close to being a serious playoff contender, but a Chris Brown goal-line fumble and a Kris Brown missed field goal have basically cost them two games. People haven't noticed, but Matt Schaub is putting up Pro Bowl numbers in Houston. Old friend Gary Kubiak needs to get his team to execute better in key situations.
u. I said I wasn't going to pick the addict Jaguars again, but I did on Sunday, because the Chiefs are horrible. The addicts then proceeded to almost give the game away. Shocker! ST&NO favorite Reggie Nelson had a very good game for the Jags, and so did Brandon Marshall's best friend from college, Mike Sims-Walker.
v. Matt Cassel was the bright spot for the Chiefs, again, and he continues to do pretty well with very little help. I guarantee that the Chiefs don't regret trading for him, especially at the price they paid.
4. In honor of Veterans' Day, I wanted to blaze a different path by doing something apolitical and propaganda-free. It's Tangential Story Time, in ST&NO. Yay!!!
Most regular readers are at least generally aware that I spent 4 years in the United States Navy. I don't think I have ever mentioned that going to sea is basically my family business, though. My dad was in the Navy for 14 years, and then has worked as an executive for companies which supply the Navy for the last 20+ years. His brother recently retired as a long-time civilian mariner for the Navy, and his other brother was a Marine, who rode a Navy ship or two. My youngest brother is currently employed as a Naval civilian mariner, presently working for a ship stationed in Gaeta, Italy. There's lots of salt in my family.
So, I woke up early on Sucker-Free Saturday, and a headline popped into my RSS reader that grabbed my attention.
Navy ship built with WTC steel to go into service
I clicked the link to read the article, and saw something very interesting in the first sentence.
NEW YORK — The Navy is commissioning its newest battleship with a bow forged from steel that once held up the World Trade Center.
The Navy decommissioned its last four remaining Iowa-class Battleships in the early 1990s, and I didn't think that they had any plans to bring them back, despite some misgivings from parts of the Marine Corps that current Naval Gunfire Support programs wouldn't be sufficient for a Normandy-like shore landing.
A Battleship is a specific type of ship, like in the children's game of the same name. The Iowa class had wooden decks, and three turrets with three independent 50-caliber 16-inch guns each, for a total of 9 guns. The shells were 16 inches in diameter, and weighed 2,700 pounds each. (Modern Cruisers and Destroyers have one or two (mostly two) 5-inch, 54-caliber guns each, by comparison. Those shells are 5 inches in diameter, and weigh 70 pounds.) Each Iowa-class turret took a crew of 94 men to operate, and I actually served with a guy who was working in Turret #3 on the Iowa in 1989, when Turret #2 exploded and killed 47 men.
Battleships played a large part in the Pacific theater in World War II, and somewhat minor parts in Korea, Vietnam, and the first Persian Gulf War. The primary missions of Battleships were shore bombardment, and ship-to-ship combat. The advent of precision-guided munitions (like Harpoon missiles, for ship-to-ship combat), and the reality that 5-inch, 54-caliber guns are considered by the Navy to be sufficient for Naval Gunfire Support, largely made battleships unnecessary, and the last Battleships were decommissioned not long after World War II, with a few held in reserve status. Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, and Missouri were each re-commissioned several times over the coming decades, with the Missouri being the last active battleship, being decommissioned for the last time in 1992. (The picture below is of the Iowa, shooting her guns to starboard.)
So, there's this new ship, called the USS New York, and the AP says it's a battleship. At first, I was skeptical, because I know that the Battleship mission is obsolete. Thinking about it, though, it is named after a state, like US battleships have historically been. I also know that the Bush Adminstration Pentagon had some meat-heads in high places of their procurement organization, who favored weapons systems with some badass factor to them, whether they were strictly necessary or not. But I would have heard about new Battleships, right? Hmmmm.
I called the guy who would know, my father Ed, who has appeared in ST&NO before, and I got my answer.
Ted: Hey, what do you know about this new ship, New York, that was partially built from World Trade Center steel?
Ed: Well, it's being commissioned this morning.
Ted: What kind of ship is it?
Ed: It's a piece-of-(bleep) LPD-17 class. A Gator Freighter. (Note: Gator Freighter is the
somewhatveryderisive name for Amphibious Navy ships which primarily carry Marines. Surface combatant guys, like me, don't think too much of Amphibs, or the people who ride them.)Ted: Oh, OK. This AP reporter called it a battleship, and it's named after a state, which lends that some coincidental level of plausibility. I was skeptical, so I thought I'd ask somebody who knows.
Ed: <Scoffs> The media doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
The media doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Hmmm... Where have I heard that before?
5. What's New In Cleveland Update:
We have a great local brewery here called Great Lakes Brewing Company, that puts out this great stuff they call Christmas Ale every year, at this time. It tastes like cinnamon, but it's 7.5% alcohol by volume, so if you're like me, and you drink them like they're just expensive Bud Lights, they can really creep on you quickly.
So, I was at a the Cleveland State University bar called Becky's last Thursday, for my fraternity's monthly alumni happy hour. I was pleased to discover that they had Christmas Ale on tap, which I would later find out was running me $18 per pitcher, times 3 pitchers. Whatever. I am drinking some fine seasonal beer, and one of the guys says, "Hey, that's Mike Trivisonno right there, like 5 feet away."
Trivisonno is the local Radio Idiot, who I have disparaged on here before a few times, as being part of the Browns problems. I am not sure what he was doing at Becky's, of all places, but he was hanging out with some uglo-Americans, who may or may not have been related to him. He's holding court, and talking about the Browns, and how the city is cursed, and blah blah blah. (I hate it when people say "blah blah blah" in a conversation, but for some strange reason I just felt the strong need to type it there, like my ex-wife possessed my body momentarily, or something. Deal with it.)
It seems the work of the Radio Idiot is never finished. He bloviates even off the clock. I wonder if Rush Limbaugh does too.... That was a little deeper than a Shallow Thought. Focus.
OK, here's the deal. There's no such thing as curses. There's only confusing hope for a plan (hat tip to Michael Lombardi). That's what they do here, in all sports - even the Cavs, to some extent. (Let's face it: the Shaq acqusition is all about hope.)
Randy Lerner, by all accounts, is an OK guy, and he wants to win. He doesn't know anything about football, and I don't think he particularly wants to, either. He's actually a soccer guy, and he owns Aston Villa. He needs somebody to establish and run a program for him. It can't be a Head Coach, because he's too hands-off for that kind of arrangement. (That works fine with appropriately engaged owners like Robert Kraft, Bud Adams, and Pat Bowlen.)
He needs a Bill Parcells-type situation, which is why he is reportedly pursuing Mike Holmgren. I think Holmgren is going to end up saying he'd rather coach than head a front office, but it's a good idea to try. Whoever ends up being the head honcho is going to fire Eric Mangini, and start over from scratch, again. This is increasingly clear. The trick is going to be hiring the right honcho, for the first time since they came back into the NFL in 1999.
Ron Wolf and Ernie Accorsi aren't going to want the job, but if I were Lerner, I'd put on a full-court press to get one of them to help me find the right honcho. A guy I would make a run at is Jimmy Johnson, but only as a team president, not a coach. You hire him, tell him he only has to work 30 hours a week, some of it from Florida, and let him hire a focused GM, (maybe Chris Polian, or Marty Hurney if he is let go at Carolina?) and let them decide what to do with the coaching staff. Then, the chain of command is clear: Owner, to President, to GM, to Head Coach.
As a side note, I expect Mangini to struggle to find future work in coaching. His credibility in the NFL is shot at this point, and what college is going to hire a guy like that? Can you see him talking a kid into coming to play at State U? Absolutely not.
6. So, I know you've been wondering what a guy like me does on a Friday night. My gameplan changes every week, like any good team's (except the Colts); and this past Friday, my friend Ashley was looking for somebody to go with her to a happy hour event at the Cleveland Museum of Art. It sounded like fun, so I emailed her, and we went.
I'd like to tell you that I am a really cultured, artsy guy, but the truth is that I'm not. I'm kind of a rugged football, business, and politics guy. Somewhat embarassingly, it was the first time I had gone to the Museum in 7 1/2 years of living in Cleveland. Ashley is really smart, though, and I figured correctly that I would learn some stuff from her.
There was a Paul Gauguin exhibit, which was included in the price of admission. I looked up Gauguin on the interwebz, and learned that he was a contemporary of Vincent Van Gogh. Van Gogh's brother Theo was actually Gauguin's agent, and he got them to work together in 1888. They spent 9 weeks together at Van Gogh's famous Yellow House in Arles, and they quarreled constantly, because they saw the right way to paint very differently. (At the CMA, there were several examples, side-by-side, where both men painted the same thing, and they looked extremely different.) Both men had bouts of depression and suicidal tendencies. When Gauguin fled the tense situation after Van Gogh threatened him with a razor blade, Van Gogh freaked out, and went to a brothel, where he famously cut part of his ear off. They never saw each other again.
When I saw the news that the Chiefs cut Larry Johnson on Monday, the thought of his relationship with Todd Haley made me think of Gauguin and Van Gogh. Haley is a talented coach, and Johnson is a talented player. Both men have reputations for being difficult, though, and many (including me) were skeptical about the pairing when Haley was hired. Johnson's actions, around callng out Haley on Twitter and using gay slurs, were stupid. Really, it's not too different from cutting your ear off, on the foolishness scale.
Haley couldn't have Johnson play for him again, just as Gauguin couldn't return to Arles to work with Van Gogh. If you're betting on futures, take Haley's (like it would have been wise to take Gauguin.) Johnson is 30 and well-worn, old for a RB; Haley is 42, which is young for a Head Coach. Van Gogh died two years after the ear incident, while Gauguin had 13 more years, and a lot of productivity after that. Go with the guy who knew it was time to cut the cord, rather than the one who cut off his ear to spite his face.
7. Retired for John Elway.
8. The worst thing about November is the jewelry commercials during football games. (Well, I guess I should be glad not to see Chevy commercials with any Mellencamp songs.) I have found the answer, friends, if you're into man-cavery like me.
If you have Sunday Ticket with SuperFan, the setup works like this. Watch games on a muted TV (or two, if you can manage it, like I do). Watch the Red Zone channel on a laptop, with SuperConnect, and listen to the sound on the laptop, preferably over some decent speakers. Red Zone has no commercials, so when they come on TV, you can just ignore the visual stimulus, and listen to the sounds of what's going on on the laptop screen. I spent the whole day Sunday with this, so I got to see a lot of football, without hearing incessantly about how you're no kind of man if you don't go to Jared, the Galleria of Jewelry, and that every kiss begins with Kay. Damn, it's great to be single. (This is Ourrrrrrr Country!!!!!)
Have a good week, and let's get ready for a Broncos victory in Washington on Sunday. No hysterics are necessary, let's just take some comfort in the fairly safe assumption that our coaching staff is driving the players to learn from and improve on their mistakes. See you next Tuesday!
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Comments
You had me at "Ben Hamilton is getting to be pretty useless".
I love Ben from the good old days with Jake the Snake, but as you atutely mentioned, it just doesn’t seem like he’s fully recovered from the nasty concussion a couple years back. I’ve seen both mental mistakes in protections and combo blocks, and I’ve seen him just get outright manhandled. Additionally, I worry about the pressure that his decline puts on Weigmann and Kuper. Regardless, he’s now a liability, and one that McD and Dennison can’t overlook.
I’d like to see Olsen get a few snaps, rather than Hoch, but that’s mostly due to the fact that Hoch is so versatile.
Anyway, great piece, and Rec’d.
STNO is balm for my wounded Bronco Fan soul.
- Jason
I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV
I've been yelling about this all year. It's good to know I'm not crazy.
I actually had a dream last night in which I relived the last two years of my life. Everything went the same (and well), but in dream-world, I learned that the Broncos had somehow stockpiled extra interior linemen in the high rounds of the draft over the past two years. Pathetic that I actually dreamed this, but that’s how high my level of frustration is.
by Chibronx on Nov 10, 2009 7:44 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
My question is
Is Hamilton’s problem the aftermath of the concussion or the change in blocking scheme from zone to power? My thought is it’s the latter – the entire line last year was pretty darn good, Hamilton included. Both he and Wiegmann are not as good this year.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
I think it is scheme and not his ability
Both Weigman and Hamilton are being forced to take guys on one on one and basically try to power a guy that is 40 to 50 lbs heavier, rather than taking an angle and then getting to the next level, just my thoughts. Although the pass blocking has been piss poor also, so that you can’t really blame on the run blocking scheme.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
yeah
Most of the problems I’ve seen with Hamilton have been in his pass protection. I haven’t seen too many issues from him in run blocking, they seem to be avoiding using him in where he would presumably be weaker, as the pulling guard in the trap. I think our tackles pull more than Hamilton does on power run plays…Kuper is also quite good at it, but I think they realize that zone block is where Hamilton excels.
It’s really hurting the pass protection, the fact that Wiegs basically has to check if Hamilton is OK on every play before doing anything else hurts not only Wiegmann’s blocking, but makes Kuper more liable to the blitz too. There have also been many plays where Hamilton is getting blown up and ends taking out Wiegs or Clady with his man and creating pressure, besides just getting driven straight back into the pocket.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Nov 10, 2009 1:04 PM MST up reply actions
100% agreed BM....the new scheme is KILLING Benny!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I agree
with Hoch vs. Olsen. Last night did well to elucidate the reasoning behind bringing in Hochstein (I was initially a little puzzled by the move)—we only had two active TEs, but Hoch played at TE and fullback extremely well; the 3TE set was clearly heavily gameplanned for last night.
Question now, what to do with Hamilton? Do we just cut him and bring up Erikson (from PS)? Can he be useful in taking up a roster spot if he isn’t starting (i.e. as a backup center)? Is Erikson any better than Hamilton? Will playing Olsen be a step forward or laterally?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Nov 10, 2009 1:11 PM MST up reply actions
Answering your question with another one...
If we dump Hamilton, who becomes the backup center? Given that we previously dumped Schleuter and Lichtenstieger.
"Remember, it's only a game."
great point
gotta keep him around.
it’s a shame hamilton cut his hair and didn’t magically get better.
Seth Olsen
Would be interested to see what this guy brings to the table.
a. not many teams go without a loss during the season; very few teams only lose one or even two games throughout the season (and we still have Washington, Oakland at home, KC x2)
b. our short passing game is fine & so is Orton. However, is there any harm in working Hillis into the mix? (I know many of us liked what we saw from him last year…are we crazy or missing something here?)
c. Really liked what I saw from Woodyard. I think having Dawkins around has really helped him become for physical.
d. I still really like this team, even is we are not “elite” (yet…). I like that they brought in good guys. Win or lose i feel like they are giving it every game, last year seemed like gys were “checking out.”
e. As always, great piece
Wow, that was long
I have to say Weigman alos is looking below average, did you see the play where he got jacked up by the LB, he ran him over. I think the blocking scheme is what is the problem, Weigman and Hamilton are just not suited to a trap scheme, they need to be in a scheme where they can run and move and take angles, not try to power guys 40 lbs heavier than them. Or we need a new C/G, which I am guessing will come, Olson may not be the answer, but I too would like to see what he can do.
Berger sucks, but I was not that big a fan of Kern, I would like to see an upgrade at P, but at this point, who is out there that you can say will be a legit upgrade (Saurabaun?).
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
he's playing in the UFL
with Tatum Bell :p
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Please no Sauerbraun!!!!
Anyone but hiiiiiimmmm!
freakin’ kicking Devin Hester… twice! *grumble grumble grumble….
=P
I am not a fan of the taxi man slapper
But I am just saying not a bunch of other quality punters on the market right now
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I know you were being facetious...
Just wanted to take my pot shot at hot head Sauerbraun. I loathe him…
why do we hate sauerbraun so much?
one incident with a taxi driver? the fact that he took roids and ephedra? frankly don’t really care about the substances (so long as he doesn’t get caught and suspended). he was a beast who was one hell of a last line of defense on runbacks. :)
Google his name
You’ll find the laundry list of issues with that guy ever since he came into the league.
I pseudo-jokingly hate him b/c by kicking to Devin Hester, he almost single-handedly lost us the game in what was my first live attendance at Soldier Field. If you remember before the game, he was also talking smack in the media about how he wasn’t afraid to kick to Hester.
That didn’t help my impression of him, but the real issues I have with Sauerbraun is that if you remember also… he got suspended for the ephedra incident, letting down his team. If you read in 5 Seconds of Panic, he came off as a complete a-hole about it also… not feeling contrite at all. He was then let go by Shanny after he got re-instated. Then re-signed by Shanny the following year. He vouched that he would be on his best behavior and a good teammate. We needed a good Sauerbraun to boost a perennially poor ST unit… and in the end let his team down again with his taxi cab incident.
Where is Colquitt?
I thought he outplayed Kern in training camp.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
something smells funny ...
right? i mean, if he didn’t out-perform kern in spring training, he was pretty darn close. yet no callbacks early in the season when mcd was sending a message to kern. gets leapfrogged by the flabby couch potato berger. if he hasn’t signed with anyone else either, i have to wonder if he’s got some mystery ailment, bad B.O., etc. i remember an MHR member indicating colquitt is an arse with a bad attitude since college, but i’ll take that with a good leg.
Great stuff, Ted. But what about field position?
Here is the list of starting field position for every Broncos drive last night:
22
18
23
21
16
Half
40
1
33
9
26
20
That’s an average (and median) drive start of the 21 yard line. I believe in the short passing game. But when you consistently have 80 yards to go, and when you’re doing it with guys who are new to the system, a touchdown is a herculean effort. Too many opportunities for miscues.
I agree, Chibronx
our ST are doing no favors for Orton or the rest of the O. And with absolutely no running game last night, it’s really no shock why we couldn’t get it done.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 1:32 PM MST up reply actions
Our ST is pathetic in KR and PR...but is average in Punt and Kick Protection......and thats not EVER going to be good enough!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I now there may be some Cutler hating
But in all honesty, he played well, the Bears defense couldn’t stop the Cardinals, it had nothing to do with Cutler. I watched that game, and he had some amazing throws.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Sorry "I know"
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Cutler's not Chicago's problem
We all know what he brings and doesn’t bring, dunno where i heard this from but it fits perfectly. Jay just magnified Chicago’s deficiencies when he went there.
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
I think there's been more Orton hating around here . . .
Orton should have a 158 QB rating, pass rush be damned . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
lol
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 11:02 AM MST up reply actions
You and I took exactly the same things away from last night’s game. We don’t have many holes, but our few problems are really freaking obvious. It rubbed me the wrong way when Bena coined the term Kern backers. Kern was never anything more than a ho-hum punter, but we all want decent punting. Berger is a horrible, inappropriate mistimed joke McDaniels is playing on us.
Agree that we got some very poor officiating last night. If Gaffney’s catch had come in the middle of the field, that chipmunk looking Carey would have ruled it a fumble. No doubt in my mind. Pitt got every single one of the 50/50 calls last night. The better and deserving team won the game, but the officiating really sucked.
Ty Law = limited action? Really? I thought he played a ton of snaps for a guy that we signed a few hours ago. I didn’t notice Alphonso Smith all night. Is Alphonso in the same dog house as Hillis and Richard Quinn? Did anyone notice Smith last night?
Where were the defensive adjustments to that damn weakside off-RT running play the Steelers must have gone to 5+ times in the 2nd half. Same exact running play again and again. McDaniels and Nolan ruled the 2nd half of the first 6 games, but they got their coaching butts handed to them in the last two games.
Ben Hamilton = washed up. Nothing more to say about this issue.
Our running game is below average. The blocking is poor, but Moreno has been a real disappointment the last few games and a slight disappointment on the season as a whole. He doesn’t look to be improving and his lack of effort or horrible technique in blocking must be corrected.
Prater quietly had a very good game in limited action. I thought our entire special teams played well with the exception of Berger. I thought Ayers had another solid effort and I agree on Goodman’s strong play. Goodman was much better than Champ last night. Renaldo Hill had one of his worst games though.
Our O has mustered all of 10 points in the last two games. Orton is not being asked to throw down the field. Pitt put together that great 4 play TD drive and it left me wondering if Denver could ever do something similar. Orton is an NFL QB with a very good career record. He doesn’t have Cutler’s arm, but he has an NFL arm. The training wheels need to come off. I find it impossible to believe WRs as talented as Marshall and Royal can’t be deep threats. Scheff is good in this role as well. Throw the ball down the damn field once in a while Denver. Sheesh. Pitt did many of the same things on D as Baltimore and it really shut us down.
Bailey laid a stinker last night. Oh well. Pitt has very good WRs and for the 2nd week in a row, our opponent got better QB play then Denver. I agree that Orton was better last night than he was in Balt, but he is being asked to execute a game plan that is too conservative.
I still think we win 11 games, but I can’t see us winning in the playoffs. Our offense is not a playoff caliber unit. It should be, but it is not. We can’t run and don’t go for the big plays. This unit has struggled too often in 2009 to give me hope we could score enough points on a good D in a playoff game.
This is my favorite website.
by McGeorge on Nov 10, 2009 7:52 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
Don't let the return teams off the hook.
Berger wasn’t the only problem on the special teams. We’re so used to seeing the return man stumble forward 5 yards and fall down, it doesn’t even strike us as a problem any more.
I only remember on decent punt return last night and it was when Berger out kicked his coverage. Barrett also made a great play to down Berger’s only great kick as a Bronco. Our kickoff coverage was excellent as well stopping their return man inside the 20 on all three kicks.
Berger was by far the biggest problem with the special teams in last night’s game. He is awful.
This is my favorite website.
I would say our KO coverage was good, but I was really surprised
that the returners were returning the kicks 5 yards deep in the endzone, which I will take if they are stupid enough to do that, most of the time you should be able to stop a guy before the twenty of he starts 5 yards deep in the end zone, credit to Prater for finally getting his kick off deep on a consistent basis.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I agree. The coverage teams were very good. But the return teams were awful, as usual. Royal’s two touchdowns against San Diego obscured the fact that the Broncos’ typical kick/punt return goes nowhere.
Seemed like a nondescript return game last night. We made no big plays, but nothing that stood out as awful.
This is my favorite website.
I guess it depends on how you define awful. The Broncos rank 23 out of 32 teams in kickoff return yardage. The kick returners last night averaged 21 yards per return. There are 31 players in the NFL with higher return averages than that. They weren’t getting tackled on the 5, but they also weren’t doing anything like breaking the occasional play to the 30. Not a back-breaker, but when you play a ball-control/short passing game, the consistent lack of any extra push from the kick returners is an issue.
You don’t need to convince me our special teams are an annual disappointment. The new special teams coach is not even much of an upgrade vs Scott “the antichrist O’Brien”.
It’s just that Berger was by far the main problem in last night’s game.
This is my favorite website.
I know you’re right. My expectations of the return teams are perennially too high. I remember hating on Ken Bell as a kid, only to find that he was a good returner in the scheme of things.
When I have time (like, after the season), I’m going to put on the stats cap and do a decomposition of where our terrible starting field position comes from. Is it the opponents’ ending drive position? Short punts? Hefty returns?
I think one of our problems is that a D which allows 1-2 first downs and always makes the other team punt near mid-field obligates the team to have a good punter (otherwise lots of yardage gets wasted on touchbacks). My feeling is that the Broncos lack a good punter.
let me know
I would love to see what the problem is, but I have the same feeling as you.
by Fan in Exile on Nov 10, 2009 11:01 AM MST up reply actions
9th ranked
punt return average in the NFL as a team. Eddie Royal, 6th ranked punt returner in the NFL. You’ve got a point on kick returns, but not really on punt returns.
“the Broncos lack a good punter” could be the biggest understatement of the season. There are only five punters people who have punted in the NFL this season with a worse net average. One of those is no longer punting for Washington. Another is Shaun Suisham, a kicker for Washington who has apparently been one of four punters for them this season (that experiment ended quickly—only 3 punts for Suisham). Another one of those five worse is Hodges, the punter Tennessee released in favor of Kern.
The only people with a worse In20 per No of Punts than Berger (3/15) are Paulescu (only 3 punts so far for Washington with 1 In20), Hodges (again, Tenn. releasee with a deplorable 1/22), Morestead for NO (5/27), and Rob Bironas, Tennessee kicker who punted once for 40 yards, which was downed, but not inside the 20.
Now THAT is some EPIC blowage.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Nov 10, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
sorry
Typo: Paulescu has only three punts so far but zero have been in the twenty.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Nov 10, 2009 1:39 PM MST up reply actions
yeesh!
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
He has been a disappointment hasn't he
Do you think its rust or old age ;-)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks for the comments McGeorge
To be clear, I wasn’t meaning to be critical of John Bena’s coining of the Brett Kern-backer term, just to be clear that my critical comments of Berger’s performance were not related to anybody’s name or personality.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 9:02 AM MST up reply actions
I was planning on writing up a lengthy comment somewhere with my thoughts on the game, but you pretty much echoed everything I would have said, McG. Like, everything!
I know we’ve had the articles here with the stats showing why Berger is doing as good if not better than Kern… But I trust my eyes on this one, and Berger is absolutely terrible. I don’t get what McD saw in him coming in. He has no leg, and is consistently bad in situations where he should put it inside the 20. I know some people on here like to hang their hat on the fact that McD has done a great job so far (which is true) and that he knows more than we do so we should just stop complaining and be happy with what we have, but in this case, McD made the wrong decision and brought in the wrong guy. We need to evaluate other punters this week and bring someone else in.
Okay, I’m done talking about the guy I could definitely out-kick… On to something else that I haven’t heard much of… I still love our defense. No defense in the league could hold up to the pressure our defense was put under the last 2 weeks. They have been consistently thrown into the fray with short fields against very good offenses with good QB’s. When our offense stalls and our “punter” squirts a kick 13 yards downfield giving the other team the ball at the 45, it is way too much too ask of our guys to get them off the field, over and over again.
It’s time to open up the playbook, Josh. We have way too many weapons on this team to look that bad over stretches in back to back games. Hamilton is done, bring in Olson.
I am starting to develop a serious pet-peeve with the routes that are run in this offense… I understand the philosophy of what Josh is trying to do (ball control, high percentage, etc etc.), but when every route ends with our receivers either standing still or coming back to the quarterback for the catch, it makes it almost impossible to get any yards after the catch… which, maddeningly, is something our top 2 WR’s happen to be very good at. There has to be some plays in the playbook that allow our guys to catch the ball in stride and break a big play every once in a while. Is this an indictment on Kyle’s ability to hit a receiver on the move? Is Josh just confident that we will be able to march down the field every time with consistent 5-12 yard gains? I am not a “flash” guy, I don’t require a hail-mary every play to be happy, but at some point you have to give your team a chance to make the big play… even if it doesn’t result in anything, the opposing D has to have that fear that you are at least capable of it. And we just plum don’t have that fear right now…
Disclaimer: I am not doom and gloom, I just hate watching a very bad player (Berger) consistently put the team in bad situations and watch an offensive unit with loads of talent underperform time and again. I’m glad we get to see Washington next week.
Your point out our conservative play calling is exactly why I pray Denver does not extend Orton during the 2009 season (which I don’t think Denver will).
If we have not opened up the playbook by the end of the season, I’ll know Orton is not the guy to QB Denver moving forward. He has played well thus far and I don’t know why we don’t try more down the field passing against teams like Balt and Pitt. Just one big play in either of those games would have made a huge difference. We were close thru 3 quarters in both contests, but when you try to sustain long drives vs good D’s like we have just faced, you are playing into their strength. I’d rather run fewer plays vs a good D than more.
This is my favorite website.
The screens on 3rd and long kill me
I don’t think it’s worked once but we still try it at least once, usually several times, every game. I’m not professing to know more about football than McD, but how about a few more TE slants in those situations? The only thing Berger would be good at is punting in Dallas, he just keep hitting the TV and give our Defense a chance to rest.
by rollinthunder on Nov 10, 2009 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Agreed...
The 3rd and long screens just come off as complete chicken-sh!&!
Here’s what we’re saying to the other team in those situations, “We don’t think our quarterback is capable of delivering a pass over 10 yards down the field to our receivers in key situations, just stay at home and bring lots of pressure, you’ll do fine.”
Berger @ Dallas comment
made me lol! Good play.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 2:44 PM MST up reply actions
Even a incomplete long ball every so often...
can at least strike a little bit of fear in the opposing defense and help loosen things up in the the underneath stuff.
But in the last two games, I don’t remember seeing a single attempt longer than 20 yards. And very few in the 10-20 range even. I could be wrong though… my memory is horrid. ;)
Or how about some double-moves, coupled with some pump fakes? I’m not the X’s and O’s guy like some of you are, but double-moves seem extremely effective when used at the opportune time (see Miles Austin SNF).
The Chefs should regret trading away J Allen for draft picks that all turned into busts.
Their vaunted 2008 draft is a farce. Dorsey is the next Ryan Sims and Fat Albert is nowhere near as good as his pre draft press clippings. Even Flowers has regressed. That team has about the same talent level as the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams. The Chefs are still two or three good drafts away from being a threat. I’m so happy we still have them on our schedule twice.
I’m not impressed with Cassel, but behind that O-line any QB would be have to evaluate.
This is my favorite website.
Totally agree
8. The worst thing about November is the jewelry commercials during football games.
Except not just November (December and January also) and not just during football games. Totally disgusting schlock, with a totally disgusting message: "Men, if you want to get you-know-what-tonight, you better run down to Kays and spend some serious bucks.
Sorry – Ted gave me the opportunity to rant, and I rant with it.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
me too...
As a woman I hate those jewelry commercials, especially during football.
by racer39girl on Nov 10, 2009 10:47 AM MST up reply actions
if they caused someone to buy you some would you still hate them ;-)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 1:52 PM MST up reply actions
not sure I would respect a guy who would buy me a gem solely on a De Beers commercial...
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 3:07 PM MST up reply actions
who mentioned respect ;-)
I was just kidding anyway…..
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 3:38 PM MST up reply actions
lol

"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 5:05 PM MST up reply actions 7 recs
Nice!!!! Comment rec'd
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 6:00 PM MST up reply actions
this reminded me of that movie
Crazy People (which only goes to show that i am getting old) and their Jaguar commercial, which i always found pretty funny
there is a clip on YouTube of it for anyone who needs a laugh
There's a video about going broke buying all the "show your love by getting the ............ diamond"s
by Troy Hufford on Nov 11, 2009 9:20 AM MST up reply actions
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=217479&title=timing-de-veers-diamonds
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 11, 2009 9:20 AM MST up reply actions
I'm gonna be THAT guy.
//rant
The guy that complains about the officiating.
Now, Denver played some really awful football, but that officiating crew was inept, blind, and sometimes downright stupid.
For starters, they seemed completely incapable of calling a false start penalty against PIT. Same goes for holding. Now I can understand some misses on the holding calls, since so much is left to interpretation, but a damn false start? C’mon! I counted roughly five missed FS penalties that on commercials, I would go back and verify. Five!
And if it wasn’t that, it was calling a penalty on a number not currently in use (68), missing a late hit on a punt returner ten yards into the sideline area, and some BS on the Gaffney fumble OOB review.
A few missed or botched calls I can excuse due to game stress, human error, etc, but the cumulative effect last night was profound. I think had the calls been made, Denver still would have lost. But the tone of the game would have been entirely different.
//end rant
- Jason
I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV
by jubei on Nov 10, 2009 8:15 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Holding my gosh yes......
I thought i saw several of our linemen tied up in ropes at one point. Dumervil had to ask for his jersey back once cause the LT ripped it off him. They don’t call them the “Stealers” for nothing….ask the Seahawks
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 1:54 PM MST up reply actions
He almost died
The NFL should be ashamed of the officiating crew last night. I literally though the head ref was going to pass out while trying to make a call. He was so out of shape and just couldn’t handle the altitude – his eyes were rolling around in his sockets as he tried to make a call for the camera. At least our boy Hochuli is in shape for goodness sake. When will they finally put a professional referee product on the field?
The call of block in the back on the interception return was correctly called on #68. #68 absolutely cleaned out number 90. One problem, the #68 in question was Kemoeatu of Pittsburgh (O lineman). The #90 who got rolled was Kenny Peterson, DE of the Broncos. The backjudge threw the flag correctly and basically hit Peterson as he was lying underneath Komengetyou. Then the Ref, who was suffering his bout of pulmonary edema called the penalty on #68, and backed us up to the 10 yard line! We should have been on the 35!!!!!! I was sure McDaniels was going to straighten out the situation (like in the Bengals game). But alas, backed up to our 10, 3 and out, Steelers score.
Mendenhall’s was absolutely a fumble – was against his leg as he was going down (not that it mattered at that point in the game, but almost cost me a win in my fantasy league which would have been total salt in the wound.)
Grumble Grumble Grumble.
by Bradoncadonc on Nov 10, 2009 3:13 PM MST up reply actions
Not to mention the lack of a helmet-to-helmet call on that hit on Buck.
Ryan Clark got penalized unnecessary roughness for a hit that was only shoulder-to-helmet a some time previously.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Confirmed
Back judge saw Kemo nail Peterson and reached for his flag. Hit Peterson with the flag. Referee blindly reported block in the back. Rewound it several times w/ slo mo. I was looking for somebody to bring this up. Crazy BAD calls! Amazing!
wow
Thanks for shedding light on the #68 call. When I heard that call I thought “no one on our team has 68, and if they did, they would be an o-lineman.” Then I figured they call the wrong numbers a lot, maybe that was the case. Then I got to looking, no number that could vaguely be confused with 68 is applicable (all the 60’s are o-linemen, 78 is Clady, 58 not in use, and 98 is McBean who was inactive). Now it makes sense.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Nov 10, 2009 7:36 PM MST up reply actions
That illegal block in the back on #68 during Goodman's INT
That was the worst call I have ever seen. I rewound it about 8 times and I am absolutely certain that #68 for the Steelers was the guy who hit our player in the back. You could tell by watching the ref and watching what he was looking at. The camera was in perfect position to see the ref see #68 for the Steelers hit one of our players from behind and as soon as that hit occurred he threw the flag. They then call clipping on us and say #68! If you have that game DVR’d take a look, we got a clipping call on us when a Steeler player clipped one of our guys. Unbelievable!
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Didn't see you guys pointed this out already
I’m glad I’m not the only one who caught that!
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
love where the team is overall, but if we're going to pick at zits ...
first of all ted, thanks as always for your thoughts.
(a) agree on holly hobbie (ie ragdoll) hamilton. the other weakness is RBs that can’t seem to pick up blitzers, which begs the question why we don’t play hillis more, who can block and actually catch the ball out of the backfield.
(c ) agree on berger, but i think the larger troubling trend is mcd’s lack of patience for young talent and preference for old veterans. trend continued by the signing and playing of ty law ahead of alphonso smith. uh, mcd, you’re not trying to put the last piece of a championship team together; how about improving your young talent for the long run?
(f) disagree on orton. as one of the announcers (i think it was gruden) rebutted last night: it’s not such a huge accomplishment to have a good completion % and low picks when you never throw past 10 yards. i know it’s not all on orton, and i equally blame mcd’s scheme and play-calling, but we need to stop being so easy on orton. he gets frazzled under pressure, has a poor feel for pocket pressure, and is risk averse to the point of being ineffective.
(g) mendenhall was good, but i would also blame le kevin smith and ayers for repeatedly vacating the edge and allowing off-tackle runs. i guess that just shows what a good job mcbean has been doing?
while we’re criticizing, i want to make a pitch for letting mcbath platoon with hill. hill’s ok but clearly botched a couple coverages in the last few weeks, and yesterday botched some tackles. i’m not hugely down on hill, but again, i prefer developing young talent. mcbath looks like the real deal; let him play. i promoted the idea of replacing royal on KRs with mckinley and i like that they did that last night. not because mckinley is necessarily going to be awesome, but because royal is not a KR, and mckinley should get some exposure. and as stated above, i’m totally down on playing law in front of alphonso smith.
I agree about Orton
I was in Tampa Bay to watch Josh Freeman in his first start, I know he completed less than fifty percent, but I was super impressed with his calmness in the pocket under pressure. There were so many times in the game where I could see Leftwich or Johnson tucking the ball the second someone broke through the pocket and running, Freeman on the other hand was mobile but never took his eyes off the receivers downfield, and because of that he made some excellent throws.
It seems like Orton has been falling apart the last two weeks when the defenses have broken through the line, or forced the pocket back. I don’t mean to be a doom and gloom guy, but Orton’s play last night had me looking forward to Simms or Brandstater, although I know it’s foolish to count him out after two losses to good defenses.
Also I wonder why none of the media world especially on Monday Night Football have mentioned anything at all about the fact that Denver has had to go through one of the most difficult parts of their season while having to play three opponents in a row after their bye weeks? Although you did hear them praise the Steelers for playing such a great game when they had two weeks to prepare for it.
There was also another point at the end of the game last night when he proclaimed that ‘now Pittsburgh is a championship caliber team’?? Did he not notice last year, when that team that all of the sudden is only now validated to him, won the Super Bowl.
GET ANOTHER PUNTER!!
Sorry rant over.
No problem on Orton . . .
I believe McDaniels is not so easy on him.
But let’s remember that Orton’s only eight games into a system Brady said it took him a couple years to master . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I love how someone thinks they have all the knowledge
about the bears and their D. Especially after their run D was gashed last night. We have had 2 staring linebackers out since game one and our tackle has been injured the entire year. Oh and we held the steelers to 308 yards. And Chris Williams is doing fine thank you, especially when they are asking him to play a new position to accomodate Pace since they did not have another tackle. He will back over to the left side maybe by next year. And by the way, here is a little nugget for you since you think Bennett is a bust..32 catches for 427 yards so extrapolate that for the year is 64 for 854. We are fine with that. And Royal? 25 for 232 or annually 50 for 454..That is okay we have holes to fill but we will be fine. Thanks for being concerned..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Forgot that one of those guys names is Urlacher...
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Which is one of the reasons...
….the Bears’ D is not as good as you all would like. Doesn’t mean that Ted is wrong in his analysis.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
I am not saying he is incorrect
my point is that their defense since the cincy game has been pretty poor and I think those 3 key injuries are really starting to take their toll. That and a bad secondary which he makes a good point.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Denver is still going to enjoy having the Bear’s 1st round pick in 2010. Those LBs won’t be back this season and Harris is not playing well at all. The Bears are both poorly coached and have a shortage of talent on the defensive side of the ball. 7-9 is about where you all will finish. Enjoy your 3rd round pick in 2010 (no #1 or #2).
Gaines Adams looks about as good as Jarvis Moss. El Busto’s.
This is my favorite website.
Yes
it doesn’t look good for this year but maybe that is a good thing and we can get a new coaching staff in here. I am afraid that Harris will never be the same and that is a shame. The cover 2 I think has seen it’s time, I would love to see something like the Broncos have engineered this year with their overall of their defensive scheme. Love the agressiveness. It is a little surprising that they played so well up until the cincy game against some quality offenses (GB, Pitt, and Atlanta) and then fell off the planet but I blame the coaching for not having them prepared for the last few games. I am however fine with the trade for Gaines Adams though, two of our ends are free agents and will probably move on so I think that was definitely worth the risk. Let’s not put anyone in the Moss category..yikes.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Norv Turner might be avaliable
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 1:56 PM MST up reply actions
Ouch!
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
just kidding
Ron is the last Turner Chicago ever needs ;-)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 3:40 PM MST up reply actions
Actually...
I’m pretty sure they don’t have a 3 either; if you recall, they sent us a 3 in return for the 5 which netted Chicago Johnny Knox. So unless they had two 3s, the Bears now pick first in the 4th round in 2010.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 10, 2009 10:59 AM MST up reply actions
Check that...
Clearly I’m confused. Chicago traded their 2009 3rd-rounder to Denver.
The Bears DO have a 3rd-round pick in 2010. Sorry about that!
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 10, 2009 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
Hey, you know what?
You think you know what you know, and I see what I see. I am not in the business of arguing, I am in the business of saying what I think. I love it when these guys from other teams come and tell me what I don’t “know.” It’s not knowing anything, it’s evaluating what’s on the screen. If they play better next week, I’ll say they played better, and why. Right now, they’re playing horribly, and I said why.
And by the way, if you think anybody would take Earl Bennett over Eddie Royal, you’re crazy.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
It is your opinion and no need to be hostile
I just find it hard to believe your opinion of Bennett when he has made quite a few great catches, in traffic mind you, over the year. And his production has been solid. Your opinion on him is way off. Plus I am simply pointing our Royal’s production, the stats are what they are.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Bennett also has zero touchdowns, and only 10 catches in victories (22 in losses) – just to back up what Ted said about Bennett racking up his stats in garbage time…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 10, 2009 8:55 AM MST up reply actions
Out of 8 games
only have had “so called” garbage time. Ariz and cincinnati so I am not quite sure I understand. They losto Gb in the last minute and failed to score at Atlanta at the goal line with 6 seconds. So outside of that they were all competitive games he helped in.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Don't be a troll tfrabotta
You called him out and he’s backing himself up.
Also, educate yourself. “Your opinion on him is way off.” Sorry, but no…that’s impossible. It is his opinion. You may disagree but that doesn’t make his opinion off.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
How is pointing out inaccuracies
trolling? Backing it up with what? It is a slanted opinion of a guy learning to play wr in his second year who did not play at all last year. He has been very solid all year and made a lot of tough catches. He has not dropped alot of balls. He has had issues with cutting routes off too quickly and again is learning the NFL on the job. So after an 8 game sample of which he has played very well he is doomed to average starter status? The bears have much bigger issues than Earl Bennett. Not trying to be smart but, not sure how I would have to educate myself about my team. I stated earlier that it was his opinion but the stats and game tape are different from his opinion. That is my point.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Go troll at the Windy City Gridiron
Sorry, I call BS. You are once again ignoring the direct content of my statement.
Educate yourself about the english language, not your team. Get a clue boy.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Classic
You come on here, post “you don’t know what you’re talking about”, and then get bent out of shape when the author returns fire. “What’s wif all de hostility?” asks the innocent victim.
Classic, just freakin classic
by AllBroncsallday on Nov 10, 2009 10:33 AM MST up reply actions
where am I bent out of shape?
“I just find it hard to believe your opinion of Bennett when he has made quite a few great catches, in traffic mind you, over the year. And his production has been solid. Your opinion on him is way off. Plus I am simply pointing our Royal’s production, the stats are what they are.”
Does that sound hostile? If it does I apologize but am confused you took it that way.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Nothing wrong with what you just quoted
Maybe some of us are a bit testy this morning. You’ve been a good visitor here, and I think Bears fans and Broncos fans have had many good and reasonable discussions since the Trade.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
That is why I would never come on to post about the trade or your game last night.
Just commenting about the bears stuff in the post.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
and where did I post
"you don’t know what you’re talking about"?
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
I think it was a paraphrase of this:
I love how someone thinks they have all the knowledge
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
But about the bears
and that is alot different then what was stated above. Again it his his opinion on this website, just trying to point out a different view from true Bear fans as that would not be the view at WCG of Bennett. The being a “horrible team lately” stuff? Yep that’s spot on!
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Gotcha
But, we’ve had some discussions here about how things said in print can be easily misconstrued (as opposed to a face to face conversation, complete with voice inflections, gestures, etc.) As a suggestion, if you had said “I disagree with this, Ted” instead of “I love how someone thinks they have all the knowledge..” you probably wouldn’t have gotten so much return fire. Especially the morning after a tough loss.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
The only people who would take Bennett over Royal are his parents ........ MAYBE
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 1:57 PM MST up reply actions
This is the NFL.
Injuries happen. TD isn’t in the hall thanks to that. Do you see me complaining daily? No. Do you see me using that as justification? No. His career on its merits alone is deserving of at least a nomination.
And come-on MHR guys, read the sig. So he took a combative tone in one sentence. He’s clearly trying to make points. Don’t start crying ‘troll’, win the argument if you disagree.
Example of a trollish comment:
“Broncos suck.”
“Ted you’re dumb.”
Example of an antagonistic comment that’s probably not going to be constructive but is intended that way:
“I love how someone thinks they have all the knowledge about the bears and their D. [further analysis]”
Example of a better way for tfrabotta to go about refuting Ted:
“Your eyes aren’t getting the whole story. [further analysis]”
Only the first two examples are trolls. Though you might not like the delivery, that does not make a troll.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
edit:
I should change WCG to MHR based on reactions here.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
And we held the Bengals to 7 points.
Who thoroughly destroyed you. What’s your point?
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
not sure what that has to do with anything that was being discussed
not comparing the bears to the broncos. I was commenting on the articles comments relating to the Bear defense.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
That was in response to:
Oh and we held the steelers to 308 yards.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Which was in response to the Bears defense being "horrible"
they have had 2 bad games as a defense this year. Unfortunately it is 2 of it’s last three which is not a good trend…
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
My mistake
I took it as a jab to the Broncos since we just got dominated by the Steelers. Here comes a Bears fan immediately after our loss saying “Oh and we held the Steelers to 308 yards”. Obviously that was not your intent so I apologize.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Funny stuff about the high SAT college football conference. It’s a good idea.
I have no idea why a great academic school like Vandy is in a conference with academic cream puffs like the Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, Tenn and Arkansas state schools. Lose Vandy and the SEC could take another academic cream puff in FSU. It’s a match made in heaven. Easy schools, hot chicks and great college football.
This is my favorite website.
makes you wish to go back in time..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Good and wide-ranging read, Ted!
Taking a little break here, and got more than I expected!!
Two (tangential) things – I’m not sure the SAT-league would help Rice. As an alum, it was pretty cool to see ’em win a bowl last year, for the first time in forever. But they lost that handful of good players (two NFL draftees in one year must be a record), and now are looking at a winless season. Interesting to see how such (low-end) teams rise or fall on the ability of just a few guys.
Liked the note on Battleships! I’ve got a photo of my grandfather on the deck of the Missouri in Tokyo Bay one long-ago September. As a medical officer, though, he spent a lot of time below decks trying to patch up what came down from above. Sadly, I was too young to pry much out of him about those days, and he wasn’t wont to talk about them. This week and every day: many thanks to all who have and those that are now working hard to keep things secure for us here.
Smashed Mouth?
I’m a frequent visitor of the site and especially to ST&NO, but this is my first post to any column. So, without taking a lot of time for introduction I will flush what’s been bothering me with our Broncos.
I can’t remember the post, but someone hinted to the fact that our offense may be stunted by playcalling more so than ability. I fully believe that our offense, if unleashed, can be a top tier unit. There are a lot of anti-Orton haters that will unleash after the last two games as examples of how and why we will never win with him. I consistently combat this argument with pressure on any QB makes them look like a dancing little girl with a flower instead of the field general we need to lead our offense. With that being said KO can do everything we need him to do. IMO we don’t attack enough. I’m not talking 40yd bombs and off to the races, but look what happened to our secondary in the second half. Pass rush/GREAT secondary and we still got abused down the field. Is there a HUGE RED LINE after 15 yards that we can only cross once a game?
Why is Buck not our starting RB? He hasn’t had the same pop that he had before a MAN COW BEAST landed on his ankle, but the dude is vicious and consistently gets more yards and is better in protection that Moreno. I love the kid to death, but there’s a reason they call them Rookie Growing Pains.
After getting that vent off my chest, this is what I see moving foward. I don’t see this losing trend continuing or coming back anytime soon. The two teams that eventually got the better of us couldn’t be more similar even if you made them wear similar jerseys for crying out loud. Looking at the rest of the schedule I don’t see another team that poses the same threat in all three phases: San Diego we’ve beaten and should beat again barring a melt down. NY has absolutely no one in the secondary and hasn’t been rushing the passer well against anyone (but could if they remember how), Indy and Philly are the two games left on our schedule that I see as toss-up games and for different reasons. Before I rant too long and make this impossible to read I’ve gotten my frustration out enough. Here’s to seeing our boys put together a complete game!
GO BRONCOS!
Aaron Rodgers is overrated. He is a career loser like Cutler and he takes sacks like his name is David Carr. Any talk of this guy being better than Farve or a Top 10 QB is total nonsense. Rodgers plays behind a horrible O-line, but that doesn’t excuse all of his many killer mistakes per game. He also plays his worst in the 4th quarter. His days of escaping criticism should be coming to an end shortly.
This is my favorite website.
I agree
although he takes sacks sometimes where Cutler should instead of making mistakes. I guess those are growing pains of young QB’s. I do think that Rodgers has been been exceptional considering his Oline and their lack of running game. Plus he is a tough kid with the beating he has been taking.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Ha, McG...
I think you’re a bit harsh on Rodgers… and if you’re gonna rag on Rodgers, you have to rag on Cutler also. At this point, I see there two careers as being largely similar. Both have the physical tools, puts up amazing numbers, but can’t seem to win, nor win in big games. I’ve watched Rodgers a fair amount… he does hold onto the ball way too long and takes sacks like nobody’s business, but so does Roethlisberger, yet he is praised to high heaven… why? Because he wins. But winning, as we all know, is a team effort.
I think both Cutler and Rodgers will eventually do well in this league. Right now, they just do not have the talent surrounding them to make that happen.
They both could use a decent Offensive line
that would be a good first start..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
Rodgers has a 93.1 QB Rating this year in the 4th Quarter this year. Last year, it was 87.8; those are pretty good numbers. The guy has a 103.3 overall rating this year, despite having taken 37 sacks. Yes, he is probably to blame for some of them, but we are talking about a historically bad O-Line up there in Green Bay.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 10, 2009 9:00 AM MST up reply actions
And I'll tell you what...
He throws a mean long ball. Beautiful tight spirals that are on target more often than not. If I was a GB fan… my only concern would be to not waste that talent on a bunch of mediocre teams for the next several years. They have several glaring holes on their team and to compound things 6-8 starters contracts are up this year.
Stats are his saving grace. For a guy that puts up great stats, he loses a ton of games and he is often at the focal point of the critical break down, which of course includes terrible O-line play.
My guess, one year from now people will not consider Rodgers much like they do a Trent Edwards or Matt Schawb. The more I watch Rodgers, the more I don’t see a Top 10 QB. He looks like the perfect QB for a perennially 7-9 team. A lot like Cutler.
This is my favorite website.
Rodgers' career QB Rating is 95.3
I understand that stats don’t ever tell the entire story, but that is a VERY high QB rating and one which is never, ever accompanied by a losing record. 95.3 is elite; I’m not saying he’s going to win a SB (who knows?) but he’s going to be a winner someday if he gets a line…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 10, 2009 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
I would concur... he is solid.
I would have definitely him in my Top 10 of current QB’s. He had an off game in TB, but so did the whole team.
Rodger’s is getting the Cutler treatment. But some of the W-L record should fall on him because of several poor (impactful) plays per game, usually sacks instead of a throwaway or audible.
I still say no one will be calling him a Top 10 QB at this time next season. Green Bay is going no where this season.
This is my favorite website.
Repsectfully disagree...
I have him as one of the few bright spots on an otherwise disappointing season for the Pack.
He’s still young, has nearly all the physical tools, but like Cutler needs to mature into his own. Learn the nuances of the position, the cerebral aspects, the value of the throwing it away instead of taking sacks, the leadership… if he can grow in each of those with each passing year. He’ll be a force to reckon with, even if their team is in somewhat disarray atm.
Do you remember there was one time early in Elway’s career, where he was taking too many sacks and we kept reading about how he needed to learn the value of the throwing it away?
Stats are his saving grace. For a guy that puts up great stats, he loses a ton of games and he is often at the focal point of the critical break down, which of course includes terrible O-line play.
My guess, one year from now people will not consider Rodgers much like they do a Trent Edwards or Matt Schawb. The more I watch Rodgers, the more I don’t see a Top 10 QB. He looks like the perfect QB for a perennially 7-9 team. A lot like Cutler.
This is my favorite website.
will consider Rodgers to be in the same category as Trent Edwards or Matt Schwab. My mistake.
This is my favorite website.
Edwards??
He is far below both Schaub and Rodgers..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
hey will you stick around just to check McG when he says things like that? :p
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Hey, I actually like reading what he says
quite a bit. He has posted some stuff over at WCG. It is not easy posting a differing opinion from the masses. It seems like people get on him a lot more than he does to anyone else. I just post opinion and stay away from “checking” people..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
I guess the Trent Edwards ship probably sailed. Maybe I should have used Sanchez. None of those guys are Top 10 QBs right now, but all three get a lot of great press.
Top 10.
Manning
Brees
Brady
Big Ben
Rivers
Ryan
Flacco
Carson Palmer
Farve
Romo
Rodgers, with great WRs and good skill guys finds a way to lose a lot more games than the guys above. He is not Top 10, just a stat producer thanks to good WRs.
This is my favorite website.
Not sure about
Ryan or Romo over Rodgers yet. Palmer is on a nice run right now but did not have a good year last year. I think if Rodgers had the other 2 guys OLines he would out perform them. Ryan has been playing very mediocre for the last month with a few too many picks. Romo has been hot but his weakest months are always Nov/Dec. I would replce Ryan with Rodgers at this point. He actually hasn’t really utilized jennings up to this point on a consistent basis. It has been Driver and his other 2 driving the passing yards.
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
We can have this discussion again at midseason next year. I’m telling you guys that Rodgers will be exposed by then. He is far from elite and does not belong in the conversion of best QBs. The more I watch him the less I like his game. He is far more hype than substance (i.e. winning impact).
This is my favorite website.
I just don't see any QB in the league winning consistantly with the Packers O Line
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Nice... I love Top 10 Lists... even if they are done ad nauseum ;)
I would pick any of these guys to start a team with:
Tier 1 – pretty much undisputed, no?
1) Peyton
2) Brees
3) Brady
Tier 2
4) Palmer (tho a bit injury prone more recently)
5) Big Ben
6) Phyllis (with begrudging respect)
Tier 3 – all of these guys seem to be inconsistent but very good when clicking
7) McNabb
8) Rodgers
9) Cutler (hey, as the resident Cutler apologist, I need to have him on my list, lol)
10) Ryan
I’m not sold on Flacco yet and Farve, while playing very well on a very talented team, could easily wear out at the end of the year.
Pretty close...
…to my evaluation.
I’d also put Flacco, Romo, Hasselbeck (at least a healthy Hass) and Eli up in tier 3, and maybe bump Palmer down to tier 3.
I think there is a lot of good QB talent in the NFL right now… With Brady/Peyton/Brees/Ben/Phyllis clearly the cream….
btw, it's not Sanchez to you buddy...
It’s Sanchise.
;)
by tunga77 on Nov 10, 2009 12:44 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Or Dirty Sanchise. Doesn’t matter to me. He got a lot of great press, but he has a long way to go. But I’d still take him over Rodgers. One is a winner and one is not.
This is my favorite website.
lol, right.
He needs to grow a mustache… ok, are we crossing a line somewhere??!
BTW, no way man… I’m taking Rodgers in a heartbeat. Too little of a sample size for me to trust “Sanchise” isn’t another Matt Leinhart… maybe in a few years, but not now.
Note, nyc
that his 4th Q rating is lower than his overall. That’s Cutler-esque.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
I'm glad they got that out of their system
great post, good insights.
I just hope the Broncos don’t look past the Redskins. Losing that game would be totally embarrassing and would show that Denver has indeed been exposed.
Why don’t they ever seem to roll Orton out? It’s not like he can’t do it. Especially when there’s a blitz up the middle against Hamilton.
And even though the executed well with the mid level passing game, they need to throw a few more deep passes.
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
Roll Out
Why don’t they ever seem to roll Orton out? It’s not like he can’t do it. Especially when there’s a blitz up the middle against Hamilton.
I posted about that after we first struggled in short yardage near the goal line early in the season. Several replied that basically McD was keeping his cards close to the vest early on and didn’t want to show too much to upcoming teams. Another suggested that it is easy to be armchair play callers when coach’s calls didn’t work as intended.
I know Elway and especially Plumber used to be deadly effective rolling out, and depending on what they see they can run with the ball and pick up a few yards more easily if there’s nothing down field.
I would guess a limitation to designed rollouts is that for most QB they probably limit throws to half the field – that’s just a guess, but announcers would always go gaga whenever Elway would roll right and then throw left across his body.
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
Yeah...cant roll out without a run game...yjay seels the roll out, plau fake abd bootleg!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
No Run Game
No kidding Boydy! Nothing works without ANY run game, and 27 yards is as good a definition of no run game as I have ever seen. Yikes!
But yeah, the boot/rollout that Elway and Plumber used to run always came on play action, which doesn’t work with no run game.
The whole line would pull left and the RB would fake left, while the QB and either the TE or FB would run right. The receiver would typically only be 5-10 yards from the QB and both would be running parallel to the LOS. If the play fake was effective, the receiver gets man coverage, with the defender stuck between the receiver and the QB, and is normally a SAF or LB. If the defender plays the reciever, the QB scampers ahead for a 1st or TD (this play was often run inside the 10). If the defender plays the QB, it’s a simple pitch and catch to the receiver.
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
Well on the bright-side, we are 3-2 in the “tough stretch” of our schedule. These last two games give us a taste of what we will face in the playoffs…
Ted:
Nice comments on the USS NY. I heard the same thing and knew the reporter had to be wrong. Then I found out this great tribute to NYC was going to be an LPD and thought “Haven’t they suffered enough?”
Has the insane number of Steeler fans at Mile High been discussed yet?
I haven’t seen it yet… but what the bleep was that? I couldn’t BELIEVE my ears when Heath Miller caught his first pass and for a split second, I thought I was going crazy and the game was actually being played Heinz Field!!!
I know Steeler fans are rabid and travel with the team really well, but still… that was disheartening to say the least.
Other than that, great piece Ted, per the usual! Thanks~!
It was discussed somewhat, but I agree, total BS
What really annoyed me was the amount of Bronco fans that left before the end of the game, that used to never happen.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Denver is a "Transplant City"
Whenever we play the teams that used to, or still do, win a lot we run into all of the fans that became fans of those teams because they were televised in more markets. The Dallas game was the same as the Pittsburgh game, it sucks when you lose your home field advantage to those transplanted fans, but at least we’re not fans of Jacksonville, I believe every home game has been blacked out in their local market… I just hope that the Thanksgiving game is decidedly in our favor as far as home field.
Yes, but I think that can be true of most major large cities...
Still, how did their fans manage to get soooo many game tickets for this one? I guess they are just that ravenous that they are willing to pay an arm and a leg on stubhub? But are our fans selling tickets for profits?!
I still can’t believe how loud the “Heath” chants were when he caught the ball. It seemed as loud, if not louder, than our IN-COM-PLETE chant (which I still can’t stand, lol).
You’re right though, it’s much better than being in Jaxx. That would be hard to swallow as a fan of that team.
McD is outsmarting himself
Don’t get me wrong, he still has my support. He has done 10x as many positive things in Denver than negatives.
But having said that, my position is that he is prematurely beginning to evaluate the O-line while we’re only in mid-season. I am saddened at the sight of abandoning what has worked in Denver for decades. Since this line is built for the ZB scheme, trying to evaluate their performance now is asking for the team to lose confidence and the momentum that they had built.
I anticipate replacements on our O-line next year to support the power running game. In the long run, replacing the LG and C are inevitable, and right now, needed. If I zoom out to look at the big picture, that will help us build a solid team, but I’d rather be seeing it in the offseason.
Since we now have a 2 game losing streak, maybe that chip we had on our shoulder will be back, right where it belongs.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
you mean the "boulder on our shoulder"????? LOL
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 9:33 AM MST up reply actions
Something like that
I also forgot to add, that we just played the past 3 weeks against opponents that were all coming off their bye week. What kind of S&M shmuck came up with this schedule?
Also, the last 2 opponents may very well have the 2 best defenses we will play all year.
Each of our last 2 opponents are in another division where they get to beat each other up, along with the Bengals. What are the chances that whomever makes it to the playoffs from their division will be healthy?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Just curious, Ted . . .
Why do you think the canning of Schottenheimer was a good move? Were I a Charger fan, I would have been pissed at that. How do you fire a 14-2 coach?
I agree fully with you on both Hamilton and Berger. Hamilton is done, IMO. He has repeatedly been tossed aside like a used newspaper. I don’t know how the Broncos could do any worse by throwing Olsen in there. And Berger? I backed John Bena on him as long as I could, but I think I ground the enamel off a couple of my teeth over Berger last night.
Good post and worthy of my rec.
P.S. What happened to the spacing between paragraphs?
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
There was a dysfunctional relationship between him and AJ Smith...
One of them had to go, and Dean Spanos decided (correctly, IMO) that Smith was more creditable for the Chargers’ success at that time than Marty was. Really, A.J. Smith is the top football guy there, and the Head Coach’s boss. It’s on Marty to get along with his boss, like it is for all of us.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 7:36 PM MST up reply actions
Good Read
We still lead our division and we’re in good shape. Yes, it sucks to lose two games, but the NFL is superior to Division I-A college football primarily because even if you do lose, you can still take care of your business if you win your division. My heart goes out to Texas Christian and Boise State who have to do everything perfectly to even get a shot at an arcane,mythical “championship.” It’s a bitter pill to take that at this juncture, we are NOT as good as the Steelers, but I do believe our mistakes are correctable. This is SO much better than denverbroncos.com. Those threads consist of Anti-Orton protesters who have come out of the woodwork for such a time as this. It bears mentioning that all NFL teams go through adversity. Watch the Colts and Saints drop a couple of games this season as well.
Brad James
Hopefully the Colts drop one to us : )
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Question from an ignoraant one
Couple of questions for those that know more than me
1) When our D line was unbalanced (to the defensive left a lot last night), and Pitt pulls that left guard/tackle to open the hole on the right side, whose responsibility is it to keep the RB inside? It looks like we are going to see that a lot from now on.
2) Could our lighter O lineman (Hamilton,for example) be used similarly until we get the personel for the scheme we are implementing.
And I totally agree that the last two games have been against very similar teams. They beat us in similar manners. It looks to me as if our ball control offense MUST function or the D wears down late- complementary football again. Both the Ravens and Steelers shut us down on offense, leaving us in troulbe in the 4th quarter. My concern would be if the Giants found themselves before we play them, otherwise I think we re OK with Washington, the two KC games, oakland, and we should be right in there with SD and even the Colts if their defense allows our ball control to establish itself. It also appears that the early advantage we had with conditioning is fading; are the other teams playing themselves into condition as the season progresses?
On the officials- anybody else think that was a fumble on the two yard line by Pitt at about 1:40 remaining? Didn’t affect the game, but sure got tired of having the calls go against us, and I’m pretty sure Champ would have appreciated it if the next play never occurred.
Unbalanced
A weakside run demands the weakside OLB, ILB and CB to stay at home. It is typically primarily the ILB that makes that tackle (DJ Williams) or the weakside OLB (Doom) if he sheds his block. The CB is usually the last line of defense until the safety sees the play and moves up. A lot depends on how the pulling guard takes his angle on the OLB./DE
Thanks EZ
Soooo, that makes DJ look a little shabby last night, right?
I’ll have to pull the second half up and see who it was that kept taking a step toward the center and getting cut off even before the pulling guard/tackle got there to blast the man holding the edge …(never wure what I was seeing and didn’t rwind…. too painful)
I thought it was definitely a fumble
but I couldn’t tell if Mendenhall’s knee was down at the time the ball came out. He certainly did lose the ball though.
"Remember, it's only a game."
I think it was just inconclusive
Not enough evidence to overturn the call. The Gaffney call of incomplete was complete BS though.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
hmmm
A lot of folks are complaining about the gaffney call, but I actually don’t think it was that bad.
Its largely a judgement call as to whether he made a “football move” demonstrating clear position/control, and the ball was clearly out before his knee came down in the replay, meaning its almost impossible to overturn on review.
There were some questionable calls monday night, but the Gaffney one seems far from the worst.
I think they said "Confirmed" on that one
Rather than “Stands”. Big difference between the two in my understanding. Confirmed = we confirmed that yes, the correct call was made. “Stands” = inconclusive, so the call on the field stands.
Personally, I got the feeling that the refs wanted the game to be over ASAP, so why bother giving the ball to Denver. They were just freakin’ terrible.
by AllBroncsallday on Nov 11, 2009 8:39 AM MST up reply actions
My question is simple:
When Brandstater played in the final preseason game, he looked deep quite a few times. We have the plays, are the plays being called and Orton is looking them off and going short, gets coincidentally pressure on said plays and doesn’t have the time to go deep, or are the plays not being called?
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
This is why I can't wait for 2011.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
He definitely hasn't had the time
whether the long pass has been called or not.
Good Read Ted.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 10, 2009 12:01 PM MST up reply actions
I would agree to a point
but let’s be clear that the play calling has been a part of it. You can’t be an offensive genius in my book if you can’t cover up for one bad guard and underpowered center.
Which leads to my next point that I trust that McDaniels knows way more than I do about compensating for weak o-linemen. So the reason that we haven’t been rolling out and moving the pocket is Orton’s lack of mobility. The reason that we haven’t been throwing even intermediate throws is Orton’s lack of pocket presence that would keep him from extending the play on his own. I mean he stepped up into a DT for crying out loud.
No he hasn’t had time and some of that is the O-line, some of it is play calling, and some of it is his own physical limitations.
by Fan in Exile on Nov 10, 2009 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
meh
a lot of times when he throws the shorter pass it’s his checkdown. Probably not the majority, but he seems super risk-averse.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Great stuff as always.
1a. The first play we got the ball back when we were down 10-21 he didn’t block anyone. ANYONE. He stood there and looked like a fish out of water. They got pressure and Orton threw the ball away. Almost grounded it. I dunno it it’s him or that teams have learned how to disguise their blitzing, because we just aren’t picking them up.
6. There’s a vague theory by some historians that Gauguin actually cut Van Gogh’s ear off.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
"6. There’s a vague theory by some historians that Gauguin actually cut Van Gogh’s ear off."
So that’s why Gauguin fled to Tahiti !
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
I had heard that, too
re: Gauguin
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 4:06 PM MST up reply actions
O-line woes
I’ll talk about this later this week, so not much to say on the Broncos problems here that hasn’t been covered. I did want to mention, however, that during the offseason, I noted that there was no evidence that that Bears had upgraded their line. That’s ‘evidence’, rather than conjecture. I took a lot of flack for that, too, from some posters who are familiar to MHR.
Omiyale couldn’t cut it in Carlina, so there was not reason to think that he would in Chicago. I liked Chris Williams, but didn’t know if he could make the leap or not. Not so far…Orlando Pace was over the hill a while ago and Chicago fans kept talking about a ‘Pro Bowl’ LT. Bennett didn’t catch a single pass last season and was supposed to suddenly be great because he and Cutler used to play together?
And that defense, which ranked 21st last season, was really just a player or two away from greatness again, despite a weak secondary and aging LBs who are developing injury issues. We see what we want to see, but Chi’s situation wasn’t hard to spot. Cutler is a hot-cold QB with huge gifts and limited outcomes, just as he was last season. There’s a lot of great lessons in watching not the fact that Chi is struggling, but why. Much of it has to do with whistling past the graveyard – convincing ourselves that the obvious isn’t really the imminent.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Quite a cornucopia today, Ted. Thanks, as always!
Still working my way through most of it, but…
1a. When we converted on 4th and 5 and it was called back for that penalty on Hamilton, Stu and I looked at each other and said, "He’s done." I’d love to see what Seth can do, because Hamilton has become a HUGE liability –and the rest of the teams on our schedule now clearly see that.
1c. I was trying so hard to give Berger a chance because I trust McD. But…yeah. He was and is a mistake. I liked Kern, too – but have to remember that he also wasn’t getting it done (and so I guess I’m not a Kern-Backer, either). I hope we can find a serviceable patch for the season, but agree that making it a high priority during the offseason is a must.
Oh, and I play fantasy football, and I can tell you it is altogether possible to put together a good team every week while also avoiding any and all of the dorktastic "experts’ on TV. :-)
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 11:43 AM MST reply actions
oh, and your thoughts on Gauguin and the NY Amphib
Were quite enjoyable! Thanks for those, too! Rec’d!
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 10, 2009 1:25 PM MST up reply actions
I know this is unrelated but did anybody else us the J and K shortcuts??
I just found out about them recently. If you hit J, it goes to the newest comment. You can keep hitting J to go through all the new comments. To go in reverse, you hit the K button.
Sorry it’s random, but if you don’t know about it, it is WONDERFUL. Saves lots of time spent scrolling down the screen looking for orange tinted comments.
Or maybe I’m just slow and everyone already knew about it. Either way, I just wanted to voice my love of this feature.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 12:01 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
from right above the first comment:
Press C to tab to new comments, Shift-C to tab backwards, X to mark as read, and Shift-A to mark all read.
The best: Z will simultaneously mark and tab forward, and R will reply to the comment that has focus.
like it says, z and r are the best
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
WOW. You all are geniuses. Z is better.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 12:53 PM MST up reply actions
Ayers
Was it just me or did Ayers look unbelievably slow running back that fumble. My contacts were giving me trouble, so I couldn’t see his number from where I sat. I was worried when he first started running, becasue he looked so slow that I thought he might get caught. when I found out it was Ayers, I was dumbfounded. That’s the speed of our 1st round linebacker?
He does weigh 272 pounds
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
Weaknesses
It happens every year. Give the rest of the NFL half a season of game tape and they’ll find your weaknesses – interior of the o-line, nickle-corner, linebackers, intermediate to deep passing game, etc.
Now that those have been exposed, teams will exploit them until the Broncos can make adjustments. If they can’t make the adjustments . . .
Agreed
In some ways, 2009 feels a lot like 2008, or 2006, or 2003, or 2002. Early in the season, we’ve been able to mask talent problems with spectacular coaching. But the holes will get exploited, and the Broncos have holes in tough places.
For me, the most telling part of the night was that killer graphic of 1st round picks on the Steelers. Every year, they go BPA. The team’s first rounders from like the last 8 years are all good players, and all currently on the team. We’ve got one guy from 2004, one from 2008 and two from this year. There is no getting around the long-term depletion of talent on the Broncos over the past decade.
I’m not sure what adjustment there is to help a left guard who gets mauled. I guess they could line up a tight end weakside every down and have Clady help him. The fact that they shut down the line of scrimmage on D with 5 guys means the ranks are thin for defending intermediate passes. Massive, massive hat tips to McD and Nolan for hiding the weaknesses early on. But talent catches up with you.
GREAT POINT...
On the Steelers’ recent track record with 1st rounders. When I saw that chart, I nearly spit up my beer.
/me insanely jealous
by tunga77 on Nov 10, 2009 12:43 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Me too, Tunga
The question is, where were you spitting up your beer? I was in Edgewater with neighborhood drunks and butch ladies yelling about their fantasy teams. Do you go out to watch games on the North Side?
LoL, hilarious...
I used to live in Andersonville and loooooved the neighborhood. I also loved all the butch-ness and edginess of “Edgewater”. ;)
Sadly though, we decided to move a few years back and moved down by the UC. We thought it would be another up-and-coming neighborhood, but then the economy went down the pooper and we are currently stuck in somewhat of a urban dessert. =/
So, usually, my wife and I will watch the Bears game from home and then drive the short distance to West End on Madison to watch the Broncos game. West End is a great sports bar btw. One of those places where they have a gazillion HD TV’s… and where in one section they have 4 TV’s in a 2 by 2 configuration, all tuned to different games. It’s pretty effin awesome. They also have a good beer selection, decent food, and attractive waitresses… wait, what did I just say? Crap… ;)
Anyways, if you ever want to meet up for our game, we’ll usually be there. If you live in Edgewater, it’s a bit of a hike though. =/
lol, I also just realized... it's about time I update my profile info
the “kicking to devin hester” thing is sooo long ago now. =P
salary cap nightmare
not only are you paying them bank, but you’re going to have to pay them even more to keep them
better than paying first-round money for seventh-round talent (I’m looking at you, Oakland) I suppose…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
paying first-round money for seventh-round talent is how I felt watching Moreno last night. What is wrong with that guy right now.
This is my favorite website.
Too it seemed like there was no push on the offensive line
neither him or Buckhalter had any kind of crease to hit.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
even if the crease is there...
if you fall down it doesn’t matter.
and if you absolutely miss blocks you won’t be on the field long.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
The #1 ranked D against the run was what happened to Moreno
Nobody has gotten it going against that run D. They are really, really good. He’ll be fine.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
by c_style on Nov 10, 2009 10:52 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Amen c. +1
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 11, 2009 7:07 AM MST up reply actions
that should be repeated in a larger font ! but since i don't know how to do that...
The #1 ranked D against the run was what happened to Moreno
Because they have a reputation for being coddled in college...
and having a hard time adjusting to being coached hard. Most have underachieved in the Mack Brown era, and it’s most often attributable to the coddling. Nobody even curses at players there.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 3:45 PM MST up reply actions
That is why
I’m not too high on Colt McCoy.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Ok, I mention this up at the top... but no one responded. =/
So I am posting it down here in hopes of garnering some thoughts. hehe…
Speaking of going deep… why do the Broncos not run any double-moves? Or have they, and I have just missed them?
Personally, I loooove double-move plays. When my friends and I start our flag football team next year, you bet I’m calling a bunch of double-move patterns. ;)
But seriously, I thought the Cowgirls ran one to perfection Sunday night against the Eagles. Colinsworth had some great analysis on it, recalling that to that point in the game, the Cowboys had been setting up the Eagles defense for a double move all game long, completing short and intermediate timing routes to Roy Williams and Crayton. Then when the time was ripe, they dialed up a really nice double-move to Miles Austin who, along with a nice pump fake by Romo, made Asante Samuel (I think) look plain silly. It was the score that effectively won them that game.
So, why do we not run any? Do you guys think we have limitations on offense that prevents us from doing similar plays? Or do the gurus here think double-moves are overrated / not nearly as effective as I think they are?
Perhaps McDaniels
doesn’t think his QB can throw it consistently. Also, I don’t think he likes any of his receivers as a deep option.
by Broncos_FTW on Nov 10, 2009 12:58 PM MST up reply actions
It does seem like a moderately difficult play to execute...
But, take for example the “out and up” …
I’m not a football technician so I don’t know the precise details of this play (help, HT/Styg?), but say for example the team has been running short out patterns all game long. Why can’t we then have a WR (Eddie) run a simple 7 yard out, the QB pump fakes, the WR then breaks up (presumably right pass the DB that just bit on the fake), QB throws a ~20 yard pass to the sideline, with the WR ideally catching the ball in stride and now with a perfect opportunity to make 1 last defender (a Safety) miss and take it to the house.
I’m sure I’m oversimplifying / overglorifying this … but can’t KO execute this type of play? We know Eddie can for sure… we saw similar pass patterns from him all last year!
Chi and Denver have the same problem with that idea
The Olines. In order for that to work, the QB has to have time to let that develop. Unfortunately, for both teams right now, there isn’t that much time available before the QB becomes the filling in a turf sandwich.
That also explains a great deal to the experts who keep claiming that Orton needs to throw deep more often. He’s getting hammered throwing short. Throwing deep would involve getting hammered more often and to greater extent. McD really does understand that problem just fine. There is an additional problem, by the way. Over the past 10 years, the bigger, small LB kind of SS has mostly left the game, although there are a few who have to speed. We’ve seen the advent of the ‘coverage’ safety – smaller, lighter, fast and effective in coverage. That also plays against the deep ball.
Many article have been written this year on why so many teams are going to a shorter passing offense, similar to the one McD has implemented. That’s why.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Thanks for the expertise, kind sir...
How long do you think on average KO is having to throw? And how long do double-move plays usually need to develop? (again, I’m not a football technician, so I have not studied these in depth yet)
For me, though, I would’ve thought a up and out wouldn’t take more than 3-4 seconds to develop and have the ball leave the QB’s hand (assuming the CB bites on the fake… big IF, I know).
So, 2 seconds for the WR to fake the out, then 1-2 seconds of heading upfield, that same 1 second being the time for the QB to reset and let go of the ball, hitting the WR at about 4 seconds total.
Again, I’m probably oversimplifying things… this is what happens when my friend and I start obsessing over potential plays we want to run in flag football (we’re really excited for it, if you can’t tell, lol)
Well,partle right, sure.
3-4 seconds – that’s exactly the problem. Most QBs have 2.5 seconds to get off the pass. After that, they’re toast.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Are you sure?
2.5 seems awfully short. For some reason, my brain tells me 3 seconds is the baseline for how much time on average a QB has… and that’s the baseline. Ideally, shouldn’t a QB be able to have 4, maybe 5, under certain circumstances (less blitzing)? Our OL from last year at least could do that! =)
Anyways, I go back to what I said last week. We should at least attempt some deeper passes! Sprinkle in little wrinkles like a double-move. If it’s not developing well (pass rush is heavy), audible out of it, check it down, or throw it deep, but throw it away. As I said last week, we need to try to keep defenses honest, and I just don’t see this type of playcalling / offense working very well against:
Pittsburgh
Philly
Giants
Indy
and any playoff team!
By the way -
The defenses among those teams listed are sufficiently different that this argument has kind of lost it’s impetus. If we don’t improve at O-line, none of it really is going to matter: the problems there are creating impossible situations both passing and rushing the ball.
I’m going to get back to your comment, though, only because it has become a common one. Attempting a low-success pass won’t improve our matchups. I know how common the belief is, but it’s still totally off base. Sorry. This is not meant critically – this IS a common statement.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Doc... check out this replay...
Not sure if you saw the game or not…
http://www.nfl.com/videos/dallas-cowboys/09000d5d8140d08d/Austin-49-yd-TD-grab
Romo lets go at around 3.5 seconds, ball travels ~35 yards in the air, Austin just needs to make the SF miss (which with the kinds of angles the SF is taking at that point, it is an easy cut to make!), and he’s in for the score.
I’ll admit… I’m a little fixated on this type of play, but I just feel like it’d be a good wrinkle to try to add in with our short game that we so predominantly run. Nothing ventured… nothing gained IMO.
Yes, saw that
I understand, believe me – folks are frustrated and what something to change. Me too – but unless it’s the Oline, Orton won’t be upright at 3.5 seconds. SF isn’t the strongest team in the league in its secondary (although they do have Mr. Bly who was misused in Denver) and that helped, but the Dallas Oline made that play, even though they won’t get credit.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
You mean Philly...
Who have stellar CB’s (Sheldon and Asante), but your statement would be accurate for their safeties. I have no idea who Sean Jones or Quintin Mikell are….
Anyways, like you said, hopefully the OL can tighten up a bit and soon thereafter we can see some shots downfield….
Is it Sunday yet?!?
Because they're not containing the rush anyway
That’s kind of my point. The line isn’t blocking, whether the picket is moving or not. It’s kind of lipstick on a pig, as it were.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Agree with most your comments Ted.
But, as a old Navy guy I have to tell you Battleships, while active during the Gulf War, were very minor to it. And while the 16inchers are impressive they were not very accurate. Of course when you lauching something that large you don’t have to be. Not all vessels with state names are or were battleships. In the modern era state names were used on the Ohio class of ballistic submarines. Amphibs are generally named after battles, so New York is fitting for this one to a degree, although I might have actually named her the USS Trade Center.
RIght, I am aware of the boomers...
I only meant that battleships were named after states, ie Iowa, Wisconsin, New Jersey, etc.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 10, 2009 3:47 PM MST up reply actions
Good comments, but
I just don’t understand why everyone is so willing to give Orton a free pass all of the time. Unless the D continued to be the second coming of ‘77, at some point in time the team was going to need a QB who could make plays. And Orton just isn’t that QB. At all. He has “game managed” the offense to 7 and 3 points in the last two weeks. He accounted for 7 points for Pittsburgh last night and set the table for another 7. He was bloody horrible when pressured, and frankly, I"m pretty sick of 3 yard passes on 3rd and long. His lack of ability has been in full view of the nation the past few weeks, and I’m not saying he’s 100% to blame for the past two beatings, but he sure as hell hasn’t done anything to respond to them.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
Free Pass
IF his receivers would get open and not drop balls.
IF his running backs would run, block and actually catch balls
IF his Oline would block for the run and maintain the pocket
IF his TE’s would block AND not drop balls
IF his supporting cast would actually execute properly
THEN I might be willing to dump him.
HONESTLY! Do you really truly believe that the QB is the end all and be all of football and ALWAYS carries the team on his back? Cripes! Let’s just put the QB on the field and forget the rest of the team.
EZ, how long have you followed the Broncos?
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:36 PM MST up reply actions
Hint where I'm going with this
John Elway never had a pair of receivers even close to B. Marsh and Royal before Rod and Eddie Mac and he took those teams, sans other talent, to 3 Super Bowls. Not saying that I expect Orton to be John Elway. But his inability to make plays is such a stark contrast it just sickens me.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:43 PM MST up reply actions
yes, and remember what cutler did with this exact OL and WR/TEs
endzone, this is the exact free pass bob’s talking about. all of a sudden, it’s not orton but the rest of the offense, which is unchanged from last year (except for UPGRADES at RB)? please. cutler has an inferior OL and inferior receivers in chicago, and yet he’s still slinging the ball and putting up points.
It is a mystery
Agreed. The only rationale I can believe is that McD’s play-calling is not suited to the personnel. Trying to game-plan a power blocking scheme using zone blocking personnel. Yet for me it is not “all of a sudden it’s not Orton but the rest of the offense.” We have had issues with our running game since preseason. You can’t open up the passing game if defenses don’t respect your running game.
Your reply is kind of a counter-free pass…give the offense a free pass and blame everything on Orton. In a complex sport, I believe we have to look at (1) execution by supporting players, (2) play-calling, (3) quality of opposing defenses.
But isn't that what alot of Cutler haters do with Cutler?
That he was the sole reason why we couldn’t punch it in from the RZ last year?
I totally agree with what you say btw… you gotta look at the overall picture. That’s why I never got super down on Cutler and am still a fan of his. That’s why I’m not super down on Orton (yet), but am concerned about a certain aspects of his game and how that might impact our peformance for the 2nd half of the season.
agreed
Cutler haters have used that argument. For me, that is an error. The MSM makes this into a “QB driven league” but I do not see it that way. Cutler is a good NFL caliber QB. He is a bit wild and unpredictable for McD’s style of play and throws too many interceptions, yet the plan was to use him here until he whined his way out of town.
Having said that, there are good reasons to point a finger at Cutler for the lack of touchdowns last year in that he would throw too many INT’s in the redzone. Those kind of plays can often be laid at the feet of the QB. Even then you have to factor in the play of the supporting cast and defense.
Of course...
And Kyle certainly didn’t help our cause last night with 3 picks… 1 pick-6 and another deep in our own territory. Every QB will have bad games every now and then. It’s the good ones (and the good teams) that can overcome those errors and bounceback in the game or in the following week. We’ll see how we respond in Washington… gawd, is it Sunday yet??!!?!
BTW, like I don’t blame Cutler solely on our RZ troubles last year, similarly I don’t blame Cutler entirely on how he left Denver. Again, big picture. Both sides contributed to the cluster-you-know-what that led to him getting traded.
But then again, I’m a Cutler apologist, so don’t listen to me… ;)
Agree
Cutler never was the biggest problem in Denver… he’s a VERY good QB, with a few holes in his game that are/were exacerbated by the lack of running game and playing from behind. For the situation he was in, he played great last year.
Orton is not as good as Cutler, and never will be… that doesn’t mean that Cutler didn’t sign his way out of town, that Orton can’t succeed here, or that the deal made was not a good one for Denver. We got A LOT from Chicago… but we also gave up a very good QB.
Cutler is the MOST over rated QB in the NKL...bar none....he has lost games in the same fashion since college and has shown no improvements.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
That's not at all accurate
it’s not orton but the rest of the offense, which is unchanged from last year (except for UPGRADES at RB)?
I don’t know where folks are coming up with these. The team is changed in a lot of ways. Hamilton (who was weakening last season and hs gotten much worse), Hockstein (who hasn’t played that well in relief) Polumbus, Wiegmann a year older and less effective, Harris is out, Gaffney is in, Royal is not playing as well, a new system, a new QB with new players and a new system to learn – doesn’t ANY of that sound vaguely familiar? Sounds like a lot of changes to me.
A couple of losses shouldn’t be a license to twist things. Orton hasn’t been perfect, but many of the problems have nothing to do with him. That’s the part that you don’t like.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
sure if you put it that way, the biggest change was ... the QB
yes there were changes, and yes everyone gets older. but as far as continuity in the NFL goes, the broncos have the same starting OL, WRs, and TEs — you don’t normally get that kind of control group.
yes, the scheme changed, but cutler is also playing with a new team and new scheme, with less continuity in their starters. you don’t have to watch a lot of chicago and denver games to realize that cutler’s and orton’s games have pretty much traveled with the QBs. cutler is still slinging the ball downfield (for better or worse), evading pressure with aplomb, and generally moving the offense in big chunks. orton is just like he was with chicago, dinking and dunking, missing long balls, not scoring many points.
so yes, we can obfuscate the truth by writing off the analysis as being very very complicated, with lots of complex factors. or we can apply occam’s razor and say, hmm, is it more likely that cutler is what he is (a dangerous gunslinger) and orton is what he is (painful to watch)?
Actually the biggest change was at HC/scheme
Occam’s razor doesn’t apply to increasingly complex systems. The idea that simplistic answers are more accurate is a deliberate obfuscation of the principle.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Are you starting to question Moreno’s ability yet? I am afraid I am. He flashes some sick skills from time to time, but he also looks very average on a lot of plays.
I want to believe he is a Pro Bowl talent, but I’m not seeing what my heart wants me to anymore.
A lot of rookie RBs over the last few years have played much better than Moreno has in 2009. The rookie excuse for RBs doesn’t work very well.
This is my favorite website.
He looks average on plays? Which ones? The ones where he is met in the backfield or stuffed at the line????
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 2:59 PM MST up reply actions
Not in his first 2 years learning the offense
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Nov 10, 2009 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
But he’s not a rookie either. So far, what offense is there for him to learn? WR screen? Check. Three yard out on 3rd and long? Check. Short slant? Check. Rare 15-yard hook only if given time for Red Sea to part? Check. Again, I don’t care how much “book learnin” he still has to do. I don’t see any talent. You can only put so much lipstick on the pig that is Kyle Orton before you realize, hey, he’s still a pig.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
This is precisely why it's useless to argue with certain people.
To begin with, they don’t understand what the QB does.
And it’s all downhill from there.
Yep
There’s really no point in engaging those that made their minds up long ago- it’s a complete waste of time and energy.
by AllBroncsallday on Nov 11, 2009 8:58 AM MST up reply actions
hmm funny that you should say that ...
for all the good teaching and thoughtful analysis on this website, there is also a whole lot of smug attacking of anyone who dares to not love every little thing about the team. the amount of cutler hating (not the person but the player) on this site is absurd, and speaks more of pettiness than a sudden (and coincidentally timed) epiphany about his worthlessness.
there is so much scorn here for those duh thtooopid denver post orton haters, but i gotta say, the rabid orton-loving is equally as rampant here. sure, you guys try to dress it up, but really you’re two sides of a coin.
Huh
Interesting that you should take that as some attack directed at you. Sorry, but it’s not always about you.
I’d like you to show me exactly where I’ve posted “rabid Orton-loving”? You won’t be able to, because I haven’t- nice try.
Not that I need to explain myself to someone I wasn’t talking to or about, but I guess I will. I was making the point that I believe it’s useless to engage those, like Bob, that made their mind up loooong ago that Orton sucks. They won’t be convinced otherwise, despite how he’s done so far. They’re simply waiting for what they think is “the proof” that “they were right” about their gloom and doom predictions. I guess they think they have that proof after these last two games.
I think that is ridiculous.
I find it revealing that posters like this were largely absent from this board when Denver was winning, after being very vocal about their displeasure with the QB, coach, and team from March to August and telling us all how bad they’d be. Yeah, how’d those predictions work out, again?
After the team has lost 2 games and Orton hasn’t looked as great, here they are again, letting us know how badly Orton sucks, again.
If that’s what floats your boat, more power to you I guess.
Me, I just don’t see a point in engaging those people. Sorry if you don’t like that.
by AllBroncsallday on Nov 12, 2009 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
To begin with, they don’t understand what the QB does.
Good point, Jeff! How ridiculous it would be for anyone to desire a QB capable of, get this, making plays! Thanks for setting me straight there!
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 11, 2009 1:35 PM MST up reply actions
Steeler fan perspective
Look, I’d take Elway over anybody. I think the guy was the best QB, not just for Denver, for anybody. It’s completely unfair to ever compare another player to him. So to evaluate Orton, the last thing anybody should do is bring up Elway.
As for Orton, I’ve seen three Broncos games this year: at San Diego, vs. New England and vs. Pittsburgh (plus a bit of the Ravens game). Orton, to me, is a player that will play up to the level of the players surrounding him. He’s a serviceable guy, but he needs a scheme to put him in favorable situations and he needs Marshall and Royal to make plays with the ball once it’s in their hands. Against New England and San Diego, Orton was able to execute plays where the Broncos had mismatches. The TD to Scheffler particularly comes to mind.
Against Pittsburgh, I thought the extra o-lineman actually did Orton a disservice. It didn’t help at all in the running game, did little for the pass protection and took Scheffler off the field. Although the play action to Royal was effective early on, when the running game fell flat, it seemed the Broncos had no replacement for the play action as another effective method to attack the Steelers defense.
As for the Broncos, I’d say they’ve got a great left tackle, some other serviceable offensive lineman, one great WR, another very talented (but mysteriously unproductive this year) WR, a decent TE, but issues in the backfield. Orton might be a long-term answer, but for that to happen, the offensive needs to go from “solid” to “superior” and either Moreno has to become much better than what I’ve seen from him or a legitimate franchise RB would have to be acquired.
My bigger issue, if I were a Bronco fan, would be that the personnel decisions, at times, appear to be change simply for the sake of making change, any type of change at all. I don’t know what Brett Kern did to get replaced by Mitch Berger, but unless it was trying to stab Elvis Dumervil, I don’t see how that was a good move. Ty Law? I know Denver didn’t exactly light things up in Baltimore, but why make such a substantial change after only one loss? To take a player off the street and immediately install him in such a prominent role in a game that has future playoff seeding implications gives the impression of, panic is too strong a word here, but maybe nervous applies.
by pghnorthside on Nov 11, 2009 8:47 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, to address the Ty Law signing, it was pretty simple.
We have been getting killed by the third WR in offenses. So, we needed someone who could cover the third reciever better than Jack Williams. McDaniels thought Ty Law could do it and he did. Ty Law covered pretty well on monday night.
It wasn’t necessarily panic, it was just plugging a hole, albeit a temporary plug. Eventually Alphonso Smith or another free agent will fill that role as Ty Law ages and can’t cover it anymore.
The offensive side of the ball is interesting. For the most part, the offense struggles as the offensive line struggles. Orton doesn’t have time for longer throws, so the defense comes closer to the line of scrimmage, which stops the run. Since we can’t run it because of the offensive line, that opens up the playbook for the defense and makes our offense look like amateurs.
It all starts up front.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 11, 2009 8:57 AM MST up reply actions
Obviously the offseason is long gone at this point, but I was surprised during free agency and the draft that the Broncos were bringing in so many (to use a basketball term) “perimeter” players (Dawkins, Goodman, Gaffney, Buckhalter, Arrington as free agents, Smith, Moreno, McBath as draft picks) but seemed to spend far less resources on the guys up front on both sides of the ball. I know Ayers was a first rounder, but unless I’m mistaken, he’s a linebacker.
The one that really stood out to me in April and was magnified after the game on Monday night was taking Moreno in the first round. I don’t want to sound too critical since I haven’t watched that much of him, but I think that pick deserves to be questioned.
by pghnorthside on Nov 11, 2009 9:35 AM MST up reply actions
You may, very well, be correct on that thought.
We drafted offensive line last year, with Ryan Clady. We also got Tyler Polumbus recently and Seth Olsen from Iowa in the draft. However, like you said, we haven’t really gone out in free agency to pick up a lot of offensive linemen. We’ll have to see how these young linemen turn out. Depth on the offensive line is always at a premium, so drafting more linemen or picking some out of free agency may definitely happen with the Broncos.
We did get some defensive linemen in the offseason. McBean, Fields, Holliday, etc. and they have been doing very well. We got value with pickups such as those and they are playing solid football, but we really don’t have a dominant presence on the defensive line……yet. Most of these guys haven’t seen a lot of NFL playing time, so we could see some of them step up and be freaks of nature in the coming years. You never know.
Note on Ayers. He played was listed as DE at Tennessee but we play him at OLB. So technically, we drafted a DE. lol
Moreno can’t be questioned……yet. The offensive line hasn’t given him a lot of openings in the last few weeks and his production has gone down. He was Rookie of the week 2 out of the first 6 weeks. He’s doing fine, but until we see him in space, we can’t really pass judgement yet. I will say one more thing about Moreno. He is running with a LOT more power than I thought. He fell forward on every tackle at UGA and he’s falling forward on most tackles in the NFL. I am impressed by that.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 11, 2009 10:07 AM MST up reply actions
i've been confused by this also !
My bigger issue, if I were a Bronco fan, would be that the personnel decisions, at times, appear to be change simply for the sake of making change
great points
But he went to 3, without TD, without Rod, and without Eddie Mac. I still say he is the greatest football player ever, any position, based on that fact.
I’m not expecting Orton to be Elway. I don’t think Cutler will ever be Elway. Actually, I firmly believe that nobody will ever be Elway. However, in the NFL, unless you have the best defense ever (like the 2001 Ravens) and a great running attack, you do need a QB capable of making some plays. I haven’t seen anything from Orton indicating that he can.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:59 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, weren't they blowouts too???
Elway threw 2 TDs and 6 INTS in those three games combined. You can only go so far without players around you………
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 2:03 PM MST up reply actions
Yes. The last two were especially ugly. And highlighted the fact that it was a miracle that someone had been able to will that team, minus D, receivers, running games, and other talent, to those super bowls. But this Bronco team is not so devoid of talent. Except at QB.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 2:05 PM MST up reply actions
I think that we're still sufferring from a lack of Elway.
It isn’t very common to have a QB that wills his team to victory. Elway was the master of the comeback. Nobody did it like him and nobody ever will. I’m not discounting that, at all.
However, there are other ways to win games. In today’s NFL, it’s very hard to have your roster stacked with amazing players at every position. We have talent at places other than QB, right now. That’s fine. We are fine. Orton may not be flashy and he may not be able to take control of a game and will his team to victory, but he doesn’t handicap us and cause us to lose. Last night, a lack of protection and a lack of opening running lanes caused us to lose. Orton is becoming the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the offense, which is ridiculous.
You don’t have to like Orton, but don’t make your measuring stick off of Elway, because nobody will ever measure up.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
Good points. The only reason I brought Elway into the conversation was EZ’s post described Elway’s early career to a T. This part of what he said:
Do you really truly believe that the QB is the end all and be all of football and ALWAYS carries the team on his back?
Pretty much described Elway’s early to mid Bronco career. I think we are spoiled. But personally, I would rather have a QB capable of making plays than a “game manager.” Makes the games a little more exciting, no?
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 2:19 PM MST up reply actions
Of course, it does. I'm with you, too. I would love to have Elway 2.0 on the 2009 roster.
Unfortunately, it’s not that common. You don’t find these guys all over the place. While it would be nice to have a quarterback who can take a team on his back and win games, at the moment, we are being successful playing a ball control offense with a dominant defense.
The saying is “defense wins championships”. Honestly, I think you need both, but at the very least, defense gives you at least a chance to win every game.With a defense like this, we need our offense to make a few plays a game and limit mistakes to win it.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 2:24 PM MST up reply actions
Just because you say you aren't expecting Orton to be Elway
doesn’t mean you aren’t. Because every post you make criticizes Orton for not being, well, Elwayesque.
wow
so in one fell stroke, you’re poo-pooing elway, trashing the broncos offensive personnel, and laying nothing at the feet of orton. interesting perspective.
poo-poo-pah-do
I would never poo-poo Elway. I am of the opinion that the offense is not executing (as supported by McD’s postgame comments) and am not saying Orton cannot improve (as supported by Orton’s postgame comments). But Bob is completely overlooking Orton’s statistical facts and appears to be expecting perfection from Orton while discounting the contributions of the team. Even Gruden was impressed in last night’s game by Orton’s early performance. That was until we could not get the running game going. A plethora of bad things begin happening when you cannot run the ball effectively.
I think you answered your own comment, here.
He has “game managed” the offense to 7 and 3 points in the last two weeks.
Okay, so he had bad weeks in week 7 and 8. What is similar about those weeks? He went against OUTSTANDING defenses. Of course we will look like we regressed if we go against teams like that. Protection has been a big problem.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 10, 2009 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
Outstanding defenses that both had an extra week to game plan and study us
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
I'd just like 1/10 of what Elway could bring
Not sure Orton even has 1/20th.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
And another response to your comment
Why? We already brought back Griese!
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
So Jeffry
You’re happy with Kyle’s performance last night? What part of the scintilating 3 offensive points excited you? Or was it the 14 he gave Pittsburgh?
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:55 PM MST up reply actions
Griese was a PRO BOWL QB!
I thought that’s all we looked for around these parts.
But to answer your question, I was happy with Orton’s performance in the first half. Even without a run game he was able to move the ball well against a good defense coming off a bye.
It’s his job to get the ball to his playmakers in space. He was something like 16-21 for 160 yards in the first half. I’ll take that every time.
After all, he didn’t drop passes. He did his job, in other words.
As QB, he gets the blame for the offensive woes. Give him protection and the threat of a running game, and he’ll get you wins. And it won’t cost you $15 mil a year.
Oh. And it’s 8 weeks into a season that has seen a QB change, a coaching change, a scheme change, etc. Were Orton missing wide open receivers running free deep down the center of the field, you’d have an argument. As it stands, you don’t.
In my opinion.
And my name is Jeff, not “Jeffry.”
by JeffG on Nov 10, 2009 4:34 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you remember Matt Robinson?
He was the QB to save the franchise, back in 1980 (pre-Elway). We traded the Jets a 2nd round pick for him. He was recently written up at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4518 for having one of the worst seasons in history. We had to bring back Craig Morton halfway through the year.
My point is, Bronco fans got so spoiled by having Elway, especially in his later glory years, that we have no memory of REALLY BAD quarterback play. I’d say all the post-Elway QBs (Griese, Brister, Plummer, Cutler, Orton) were better than all the pre-Elway ones (including ring-of-famers).
"Remember, it's only a game."
Your namesake did have a very interesting career
according to Wikipedia, he backed up a Heisman winner at Notre Dame, then was an all-American himself his final year; a first draft choice into the NFL, played with the storied Chicago Cardinals and Dallas Texans, then spent seven years in the Canadian Football League.
Came to the Broncos to be Assistant Coach and ended up as quarterback. Threw the first TD pass in AFL history. He was the first pro QB to throw for over 3000 yards in a season! I was dismissive of him because he had the two highest INT seasons in Broncos history, but it was a different game back then.
I take it all back. Tripucka, I honor you.
"Remember, it's only a game."
On another note,
McBean being absent seemed to be a missing key to our defensive line as well. Kind of limited the rotation there and may have contributed to them wearing down.
Olsen may be the fix for Hamilton, I certainly like his size. That is one thing about our line I thought really showed up last night was the smallish guards and center we use. Someone else mentioned zone blocking seems to have gone to the wayside. This line is too small overall to not use it in the running game IMO. But, the zone blitzing up the middle sure showed Hamilton’s best days are behind him. If you can’t win in trenches you won’t win the battle.
Great Stuff Ted
The Gaffney call could have gone two ways- Fumble out of bounds (ours ball) or Incomplete. I am not an expert in any way but there didnt seem like there was enough evidence to overturn the call.
THE BOGUS CALL OF THE NIGHT – “Illegal Block in the back #68 intercepting team” WE DONT EVEN HAVE A #68!!!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Yeah he screwed that up
- 68 on the Steelers was getting blocked in the back..
Roach love the run stuffin', but don't forget about the TE over the middle!!
- "Original WCG Power Poster!"
No, #68 for the Steelers hit #90 for the Broncos in the back
I watched that play more than a half dozen times and it is obvious the ref saw #68 for the Steelers clip a Bronco and somehow we got penalized for it. Unbelievable!
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
it was the goodman pick i think
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Nov 10, 2009 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
Nope
They erroneously announced another penalty on a punt return as being “after the interception.” Not a good moment of prime time exposure for the ref there.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Nov 10, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
its not that big of a deal
Ref’s get numbers wrong all the time. I thought the more embarrassing gaff was when Carey said “intercepting team” for the penalty on the punt.
Guys, we can’t blame the refs … not that many of us are, but just like we said last year after the SD game… errors by the refs unfortunately are part of the game. Now, if we could just get Hocculi to ref the rest of our games, we’ll be set. ;)
yes, these are not particularly good examples of bad officiating
so they got the number wrong and the situation wrong: the penalties were correct.
i thought the gaffney call was a bigger error. i’m fairly certain he actually was about to put his THIRD foot down when he lost control of the ball (i didn’t bother rewinding to confirm this). control going to the ground doesn’t matter once you’ve taken three steps and then fumble the ball.
Good point... the penalties were correct in both cases...
Maybe this particular ref just gets stage fright in front of an audience. ;)
I remember another gaff in the SNF game where the ref was facing the wrong way when he started the call. He had to turn around and re-do it. haha….
They called it right, and then penalized the wrong team
I watched it over and over. #68 clearly laid a vicious block in the back. However, it was Pitt’s #68 (Komeatu – O lineman). He laid out Kenny Peterson (D end). The backjudge was johnny on the spot and threw the flag right at teh situation. But when the enforced the penalty they got confused between offense and defense (it was a turnover situation) and enforced it on us. We should have been on the 35 and ended up on the 10. I was screaming at my TV. So aggravating. (Sorry to repost, I posted similar with more detail up above before finding this discussion).
by Bradoncadonc on Nov 10, 2009 3:24 PM MST up reply actions
Oh wow... I didn't see that
Ok, yea, that’s BS. But not to repost also… but I think this is still valid: we can’t blame the refs … not that many of us are, but just like we said last year after the SD game… errors by the refs unfortunately are part of the game. We can’t not say that now…
That said, blaming or not blaming, a blown call like this and potential other ones sure are frustrating!!! =/
Good Post
I agree that the O-line has had a lot of problems the last two games. And I am very unimpressed with the punting. I’m not one to say it was the Refs fault, but there were some calls that were pretty poor. Specifically the fumble call. I can’t say that is the reason for the loss, because its hard to win when the offense can’t score, the punting is lousy, and the defense is tired and inconsistent. This team is better than that, and I have faith they will only improve on the problems. There were good things in the game that I noticed but as we all know, “You win as a team, and you lose as a team”. Fortunately this is just the halfway point of the season, so there is plenty of time to grow from this.
If we cannot find a way, we will make a new one. -Hannibal
by AvalancheRescueDog on Nov 10, 2009 1:42 PM MST reply actions
ARD - Hey, what county?
My 1st guide dog and I were friend with Hasty when he was handling Summit County.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Good points again Ted
I especially agree that: there has to be more talent out there at punter than Berger. I agree that DJ had a pretty poor game – this is two weeks in a row where he seems half a step slow to react and establish position. Also, someone (McG?) noted above that Hillman had a pretty poor game. Champ had a tough game and was really beating himself up last night – you’re going to have bad days here and there. I also don’t understand the play-calling – McD deserves some grief for this. Orton’s still learning the system and his teammates, but his current pocket presence is pathetic – he’s panicking a couple of ticks before there’s anything to really panic about and his ability to make something out of nothing seems pretty lacking. I thought that Law was OK at best and looked pretty lost out there a number of times – in fact, cost us a timeout. I’m not buying this theory that Hillis didn’t play because he didn’t practice – how does one explain Law then? If, and it’s a big if, we can re-establish some rythm on the offensive side of the ball, we should be able to right this ship.
Thanks again! Go Broncs!
It's "just" football
champ did have a tough game BUT
to be fair to him, he never gets safety support. so he has to protect against the deep ball and can’t gamble on cutting the short route. that being said, and everyone calls me an idiot when i say this, but he’s clearly lost a step. yeah yeah, he’s still a very good cover corner and an excellent all-around corner, but when he’s constantly left alone out there, he’s going to give up some yardage.
Agree 100%
our shutdown took a beating last night, no respect for him last night. He was beat all night long. Now I know how the raiders felt last year when thier corner was destroyed by Eddie… He will be back but just won’t be holding the title “shut down corner anymore”
yep
I saw a lot of plays that the “old” champ would have made that the current Champ was just a moment slow on (a number of those curl/come-back routes to Holmes). Holmes is very quick out of his breaks, but Champ’s key abaility for years has been his ability to play off coverage, but then react and breakup the in’s,outs and curls. Last night, he was always just a split second slow where he allowed the catch before making the tackle….
I said Goodman had a nice game and Renaldo Hill played poorly (in the 2nd half).
This is my favorite website.
You're right
I somehow made a contraction out of our new guys from Miami – I meant to say Hill and agreed with your assessment.
It's "just" football
Great Post
I do agree with you on your statement about execution. If our players don’t then we must replace them. Only problem is we dont have enough players to replace our problems the past couple of games.
All three parts of our game had a couple of players that could have been replaced for a bit anyway. We just looked terrible in the second have of both games. We were owned and really looked lost and confused. The confidence has been disappearing from us the last two games. We all keep talking about who it is that is having a bad game and that is when all the opinions and bias’s come out, that is where I start to become lost.
It is the OL, Defense, special teams, puner (which I totally agree with) the OB, no running game, poor tackling, (bad angles and all) total lack of offense and ability to get into the redzone and when there cant make a TD, rookie coach, new players…..etc etc…
I don’t know if anyone can really argue about everyone of these points because at one point or another they have all been true and some games all of them have been true.
All that I can say at this point of the season is that I am very surprised we are where we are and I am damn happy about it. I do believe where the frustration comes is that we started to believe that we were ready for the big dance after our great start.
Well, time to get back to the real world, we have learned a lot about our team the last two games and it is we have a ton of work to do before we are ready to compete for the center court game. Not only a ton of work but we are seeing that we need a few more pieces to plug in before we have a complete team that is ready to take on the better teams.
We have to many areas to fix and a few more positions that need to have better personal before we are there. I do believe we can still win our division but I also believe we do not any easy games in front of us. We can win any and can lose many, that depends on how we rebound from the past two beatings.
I see us going 10-6 and that is about 5 games better than I thought we would get after pre season. I love my team and I want to win them all but we must be real, we are not a top tier team at this point….my opinion only and that probably means nothing…Go Bronco’s
thanks ted
u are much better than peter king no time to panic
okay i have cereal palsy arhrtis and chronic fatiue as well i have a grea life loveing folks some days are better that other days i got a make a wish in 2001 saw my favorive team the broncos was the trip of the lifetime i wish everyone couild gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that ok but i bleed organ and bule
ESPN Power Rankings are out
I think this is the first week that we are not the lowest rated team of the same W/L record. lol….
Grr.... I spent waaaaaay too much time
Obsessing about the Broncos today, and doing waaaaaaaay too little work. Damn you, Ted!!!! =P
Excellent!!!...random thoughts.
1) Agree on Hamilton— if I was game planning against Denver, I’d attack the interior oline all game. The thing is, I’m not sure we could have worse match up problems in back to back weeks than the Ravens and Steelers. That said, I expected better against Pittsburgh.
2) Agree mostly with those concerned about Orton getting uptight and frazzled, but I can’t help but to go back to my first point. The guy hasn’t had time the last two weeks to reasonably expect anything to open up downfield…heck, or even mid-range, for that matter. I stick to my belief that McD isn’t being conservative but rather practical in his play calling. Hayensworth presents another match up problem, but I think we’ll see a more dynamic attack from here on out just because most our remaining games are advantage Denver Oline. That said, there have been times where I have felt that Orton was not as composed as you’d like to see, which bothers me some.
3) Is it just me, or does anybody else wonder if the cost of having an ‘older’ secondary has been to struggle against smallish, quick receivers. I wonder if Eddie Royal tears those dudes up in practice. From Santonio Holmes, to Kelly Washington and beyond, the quick guys have killed us this year. Remember, a guy loses quick twitch before he loses pure speed. I’m hoping we just saw an off day from Bailey…but I wonder. This might very well be a weakness that can be exploited all year. Come on Phonz!!! We need you to develop quicker.
4) I’m not as impressed with Woodyard as most. He either got washed out or didn’t react quickly enough on that trap that Mendenhall got most his yards on. I wonder if Pittsburgh wanted him on the field and knew that three-wide takes Andra Davis out of the game. I think Woodyard is decent and promising an all, but IMO he was a big weak link last night.
5) It is hardly time to panic. We went toe-toe with a fantastic team last night— a team that makes the most of opportunities— and Orton gave them too many. The final score sucked, but it was a product of an opportunistic team and great second half adjustments by the Steelers. The Broncos simply wore down of defense…but man, they gave Pittsburgh all they wanted for the better part of that game. Few teams are Pittsburgh on a good night.
by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 10, 2009 3:24 PM MST reply actions
Agree with most of your points
but really have a hard time trying to agree with your statement on us going toe to toe with a fantastic team. We did great the first half as we did last week with the ravens but then it was a complete melt down after that.
As the team was saying and doing up until now was keeping the mind set of playing for 60 minutes and not a second less. that is a great attitude which all loved and believed in, but that is not happening the past two games. I could agree with you that it is not time to panic if it were a tweak here and a tweak there or a bad day here and a missed opportunity there, but we were like two complete diff teams in the two games in the second half.
Don’t know what the cure or answer is but it is definately time to look at the game tapes and see what team has been coming out in the last 30 minutes because they have started to resemble what we all seen two much that past years…..
Getting burned out from practicing to hard or just losing focus or losing our belief in ourselves, don’t know what it is but we need to get back to the hunger and desire for the full 60.
And it is time for the offense to cure its inablitlty to score points. Our running game is most definately time to start the panic mode. As stated earlier we only had 27 yards, that is beyond a bad day at the office…. But then again we have all the reasons to explain why we are having a slump and I really don’t want to hear any of them, that is like going down to the “refs really had it for us this week” BS….. Play hard for 60 and win or lose it is what it is at the end of the day… Our team is a work in progress that we just got to enjoy a 6-0 cinderlla start, now lets get real and back to the drawing board. As Josh and the team has been saying all year long “We have a lot of work to do yet”
And that is very very clear now with the tough stretch we have been faced with….We can still win the division so lets go Bronco’s……. 60 minutes nothing less…
Not trying to minimize...
…but I think the D wore down the last two weeks because of offensive futility. We played two, big, physical teams. I don’t think we even tried to establish the run against the Steelers, and the game plan was actually pretty effective save a few very key screwups (the Gaffney ‘drop’, the Hamilton hold, etc) that stopped promising drives. Orton, of course, didn’t have his best effort.. Pittsburgh realized that we couldn’t protect Orton, adjusted coverages, and kept the Broncos offense off the field, wearing down the D.
If you think about it, Denver’s offensive line has always struggled against effective 3-4 defenses. It’s the weakness of the zone-blocking scheme because the personnel necessary to be an effective zone-team trade size/ability to hold ground in exchange for mobility and athleticism. Mix in the Hamilton’s poor play, and I don’t think you can under estimate the match-up advantage the Steelers and Ravens exploited. I’m not sure that many other teams have those match up advantages. That’s why I’m not in panic mode.
I guess from my perspective, I’ve never mistaken the 2009 Broncos for a sure fire contender. I think McD inherited a worse team than most are willing to admit. Thus, they are still very much in line with my most hopeful expectations. I’m not panicking and I still expect them to win the AFC West going away.
by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 10, 2009 4:16 PM MST up reply actions
Gotta agree with you
I am sure I got caught up with the way we were playing. Didnt really think we were going to do as well as we started so started to turn my wishful thinking into expectations. I am enjoying this ride so far no matter how we end up from here. We are going to get there I am sure.
Being weak at the interior O-line...
…is doubly problematic when you have a pocket QB like Orton. He’d be better off getting pressure from the outside so he could step up into the pocket.
Can Ryan Harris play guard?
Woodyard
Woodyard is what he’s always been… a small, quick former safety playing LB.
Woodyard is a great nickel LB (or 4-3 WLB) because of his coverage skills and speed flowing to the ball, but he can get washed out in running plays because he doesn’t have the strength to get off blocks. With A.Davis (who is the opposite – strong but slow), we have a nice tandem if we can dictate personnel groupings and playcalling by getting ahead in the down/distance groupings (3rd & long, etc.). It is the key to the “situational football” that we were complimenting McD and Nolan on for the first 6 games.
Unfortunately, Pitt did a great job in the 2nd half of forcing the DEF into situations through those pull-block plays and the no-huddle, where Woodyard had big-mean O-lineman in his face. It was great scheme by Pitt, and one I expect other teams to try and replicate… the trick will be if the DEF can stay out of situations where Woodyard and Davis can play to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
Great points, cjfarls!
Also, it helps if your pulling lineman gets to leave early without a false start penalty. Saw more than a few of those Monday night.
Still, PIT dictated terms to our defense when it mattered. Maybe that’s part of the reason why they are the champs?
As for the damage done with the no-huddle, I’d love to see a post from HT on how we counter that option. That’s two weeks in a row, and one in our own house. Ouch.
- Jason
I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV
Therein lies the rub...
Maybe the weakness we have to worry about is the heavy dependence on situational substitutions. It was not lost on me that Pittsburgh— of all teams— seemed to want Denver in its nickle package as much as possible. They didn’t throw well against it early, but they certainly ran against it with great success. Denver clearly wanted LK Smith to hold ground, Ayers to contain the edge and the ILB’s to make the plays. Woodyard consistently failed to do that because he’s more of a WS 4-3 guy (flow to the ball) than a stack-shed type, which is usually the primary role of a 3-4 SILB I would be very surprised if we don’t see a heavy dose of that trap out of a 3 wide package from here on out. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Denver go towards subbing in Barrett at S to handle the coverage role Woodyard has in the nickel package and keeping Davis on the field.
by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 11, 2009 12:31 PM MST up reply actions
27 yards rushing and a tired D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27. That has got to be an all time low for Broncos, and maybe NFL? Inexcusable, and a serious sign of concern- I don’t care who you are playing.
Also, the D is out there a lot due to throwing every down and going quick 3 and outs or 6 and outs. They are wearing down (and have been in pads since training camp). They need an easy week or it could start to snowball badly.
I heard that 27 yard performance was the 4th lowest total for the Broncos ever
I agree that it was pathetic, but 4th worst for us, probably not even in the bottom 20 for the overall NFL.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
This team rocks!
Great post
Just want to say that i love to read all the insightful information that can be found on this blog. From what ive seen from other SB blogs I feel privileged to be a fan of such a great blog.
The 2nd half of the schedule looks to me that we will have a lot more wins than losses.
Especially as well as the team has played against the last 2 teams. I feel that we where one to two plays away from winning despite the score.
Personally i dont think we will when in the playoffs, on the other hand, im confidant that we will get there and would love to see us go all the way!
That would really make the trade with Chicago lean in our direction.
But hey, what do I know..I love to watch the game and not big on strategy!
"Iron sharpens Iron."
My favorite teams are:
Broncos
and anyone playing against Da Bears!
meant to say win not when.....
“Personally i dont think we will WIN in the playoffs, on the other hand, im confidant that we will get there and would love to see us go all the way!”
"Iron sharpens Iron."
My favorite teams are:
Broncos
and anyone playing against Da Bears!
you rule
Ted, informative and entertaining as always.
I want to apologize for something
Two weeks ago I lost my old, beat up but beloved Broncos cap on a soccer field. I’d just played a game and then forgot it. When I went back it was gone. I emailed everyone about it but no one turned it in. So I bought a new Broncos hat. Anyway, since that morning I lost the hat the Broncos are 0 and 2. The new hat has not brought new good luck.
It’s all my fault!
If anyone wants to contribute money so we can hire a private investigator to track down my old hat, let me know! Otherwise, I just pray this jinx ends soon. If not, I may go hide somewhere before y’all track me down.
;-) (Hey, you gotta blame something right?)
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
PS: Thanks for this post Ted
great as always. Painful to revisit the game but good stuff here.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Been that way a while now
I was at the last MNF game vs. the Steelers in ’07. Same thing; felt like an away game.
Game was even similar: defense wore down 2nd half. The major difference was the QB rallied the Broncos to a last second win. Seems to have changed numbers and lost the ability to throw since then.
Did that former NFL scout..
…call Kuper a weak spot of our O Line? Since he’s a former NFL scout I guess I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant just Hamilton. If not, then he really isn’t much of a scout.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793

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