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Petition for change to Zone Block Scheme


As we reach the halfway point of the season, I have only one glaring concern....the lack of a consitent running game has really hurt us. I keep imagining the runs that Buck and Knowshon could be getting if we were employing the same scheme we used last year. This has been mentioned by MANY of you, but I wanted to put it to a poll (If I can figure out how to attach one). Maybe if enough fans sign on, someone at Broncos HQ will at least give it a thought since our OL is built of zone block type guys who have had great success with it in the past!

 

So what do you think? Feel free to post pros and cons as you see fit!

Poll
Should Denver change back to a Zone Block scheme for the running game?
Yes! We have the proven guys to make this work!
81 votes
No! We need to stick with the situation and tweak the personnel!
12 votes
I just think the author is crazy and we should pass our way out of this...
5 votes

98 votes | Poll has closed

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

0 recs  |  Comment 38 comments

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Please, please. Someone needs to get McD to read this.

The fans want the zone block back. Well, three of us at this point. ;)

This is our team, let's have fun with it! - dmitchell624
Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.

by solace on Nov 11, 2009 8:21 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

what??? I thought McD was a member. lol

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 11, 2009 8:26 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Zone...At least through the end of this season...

Then, if McD wants to switch to more of a power OL then he will have the off-season to make the personel moves needed to get bigger and stronger on the interior.

by BroncoSense72 on Nov 11, 2009 8:23 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Thats what I've been thinking BroncoS....................

Lets use more of the Zone Block for now. If we are building towards more of a power running game in the future then we can make personnel adjustments in the offseason through FA and the draft. One question I do have though, if this offense takes 2 years for the QB to learn then how long does it take for your linemen to learn it? I wouldn’t mind hearing from some of our more knowledgeable experts on this site on this subject, maybe a breakdown on complexity for each position.

Our new DOOMesday Defense!!!! YOU LIKE??????????????

by Broncofan on Nov 11, 2009 9:16 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

BINGO!!

The Broncos do not have the personnel for a power running game. But one thing is for sure: Either come up with a running game, or watch somebody else play in the postseason. It’s that simple . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Nov 11, 2009 10:24 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

McDaniels is not going back...to anything.

Moving forward. This year is supposed to be a transition year. Right? Plus the Broncos are still winning? Bonus.

I think they are going to use some of the zone block, and phase it out. Should they use a little more of it? Yes.

by precisiontint on Nov 11, 2009 9:25 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Transition was over at 4-0

We are now honest contenders for not only our division title – but the superbowl as well. A great coach adjusts to the players he has while seeking out the players he wants. If Cutler had not been traded I am sure McD would have played to the strengths of Cutler while attempting to minimized the down side – if he tried to make cutler a game manager we would be at a whopping 4-4 right now. Likewise he inherited an O line that was built to do a certain thing very very well which was to carry on the Denver tradition of allowing old school marms to rush for a 1000 yards in a season. Gibbs – not shanny – designed the ZB. His first pupil was Rick Dennison who carried it to a level Gibbs would be proud of. Given McD’s rep as a pure student of the game I would think he would be open to really exploring one of the most successful line schemes in the NFL from someone that learned it first hand from the originator. And it works so well with the McD style of high percentage ball control football.

by Flunkie on Nov 11, 2009 1:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be nice, but...

Do you really think that a new head coach is going to change midseason to mimic a running style that his predecessor made famous? McDaniels is probably going to stay committed to his gaps/power running approach. Considering our OL and their experience, it would make sense to employ a little of it and phase it out slowly when the power running game starts to work more effectively.

I think we all need to relax. Baltimore and Pittsburgh are not the type of opponents you want to go against to gauge the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of your running game.

Precisiontint, you hit the nail right on the head. This is a transition year.

Please check out my blog, broncosculture.com. Followers needed.

by broncosculture on Nov 11, 2009 10:27 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Broncos Brother.

I like to enjoy my Orange Crush for what it is. Not what I want it to actually be.

Having said that…

Damn some Super Bowl would taste great! Fill it to the rim! Pass some to all of those haters! In your face Jamie Dukes! WOOOOOOOOO!

I’m back. Thanks for having me!

All Ready!

by precisiontint on Nov 13, 2009 7:31 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Reminds me of Hoosiers

The part where all the town’s guys were trying to tell the coach how to run the team.

by NDbronco on Nov 11, 2009 11:22 AM MST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Petition

I would like to petition the MHR staff (esp HT) to write an MHR University article on the difference between ZB and power blocking. It would sure help my understanding!

by Endzone on Nov 11, 2009 11:23 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

MHR University

HT, aka Steve Nichols, has already written an outstanding article on the ZB system HERE

by Endzone on Nov 11, 2009 11:31 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Another MHR University

Yet another great article by HT is “Smash Mouth Football” HERE

by Endzone on Nov 11, 2009 11:35 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

One of the great features of the ZB was the lack of competition for players that fit that system

the lack of demand for those players led to many good values during the draft and even during free agency. Any type of a strategic advantage is worth considering for retention.

I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.

by Arctic Bronco on Nov 11, 2009 11:49 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Let me play devil's advocate here

As a former OL, I can say the worst possible thing to do is change a blocking scheme mid season. For a good OL, the blocking and scheme has t be almost instinct, as there are bodies flying around and u have to know exactly what you are doing.

This reminds me of when I played in High School, except the opposite. We were known as a powerful pull and trap team, or for those who know, the Wing-T, and then we tried to switch to zone. It turned out pretty horrible as we had our worst season in school history.

I say we put in Hochstein or Olsen, as they are more power OG’s, while Hamilton’s more of a zone OG.

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:14 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I forgot to say after

“the blocking and scheme has t be almost instinct”, and you take that familiarity away by shifting schemes mid season

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

All of these guys have experience in the ZB scheme, save the rookies. I'm not sure about them.

Last year we ran the ZB scheme. So, really, McD’s new scheme is newer to them than the ZB scheme. Clady, for instance, played 16 games in a ZB scheme and only 8 in this one.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 11, 2009 12:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand

But, they have been learning the power game since Feb now. To go back to ZB would be pretty tough, its not as easy as you think. I really think Hochstein should start, cuz as u said, no1 has power exp, but he does. He played in NE, and they ran it there. Use him in there instead of Hamilton.

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:33 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That's true.

I haven’t seen much of Hochstein, but I do know that I would MUCH RATHER have him as a starting offensive lineman than a FB. lol

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 11, 2009 12:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

True

But he only played FB cuz Larsen was hurt. I have been dreaming of a Quinn, Graham, Larsen package for the 3rd and shorts. But seriously, he was a starter for those SB teams, and they ran the same scheme we do. I advocated the Hochstein to start in one of my posts. I will keep supporting him, as he has more plus side then both Hamilton and Olsen.

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like it.

I’m convinced that McD reads MHR. Why else would he have made this move??? lol

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 11, 2009 9:08 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, a problem I have with the zone

Is that the best D against it is a zone blitz, and that is actually becoming a very popular play, so to do that might not be the best idea.

In McD we Trust!!!!!!!!!

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:20 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Our running game was fine

until Harris went down and we faced 2 of the toughest run-defenses in the NFL. Stick with the plan, it will get better. That’s my 2 cents worth…

MARK IT ZERO!!!!
Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
You mark that frame an 8, and you're entering a world of pain.

by waltersobchakbronco on Nov 11, 2009 12:41 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I'd disagree

We have been getting decent yardage, but I’m not really happy wit the avg per carry, which is not impressive. It’s gotta improve

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 12:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Fine We Are

I agree walter. The problem, however, is that if we make it to the playoffs then we will probably be seeing the same or similar massive defensive fronts. Getting Harris back will help, but we need better play from the middle 3. I have seen them blown up far too often and far too often not opening running lanes. Right now I see us making the playoffs but not advancing far if we don’t fix our running game Oline woes right away. Teams are taking away our passing game in the redzone AND daring us to use our running game.

by Endzone on Nov 11, 2009 12:56 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point

Don’t you think if Harris gets back healthy and Olsen comes in we have a good shot at cleaning it up? Also, when is Hillis coming in? Is McD saving him for the playoffs? He and Larsen both? Are they our secret weapons?

MARK IT ZERO!!!!
Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
You mark that frame an 8, and you're entering a world of pain.

by waltersobchakbronco on Nov 11, 2009 2:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hillis had a personal issue on Mon.

And Larsen’s been hurt all year, I think he came back last week though

by DBroncs1414 on Nov 11, 2009 2:16 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

the point about the zone blocking argument

is completely due to our offensive line, god bless em, are not built for power formations. We had a problem blocking the Ravens D before Harris went down in the game…and I’ve noticed the disturbing trend of the broncos O line being unable to get 1 yard in the power formation. This has been happening all year. Within the zone blocking scheme you are looking for gaps, and a quick cut through the hole. In a power formation you are trying to out-physical the opposing D line, and quite frankly Weigman and Hamilton are not going to do that to guys who outweigh them by 40 to 50 lbs.

They have used zone blocking at times this year (specifically during the Oakland and Cleveland games) where you pitch backwards to the back and let him cut through the gap quickly.

As I’ve stated before, this won’t solve all the Broncos blocking issues, but it will improve it enough. Also…it would require using Larson and Hillis more….which I’m not sure McD is willing to do at this point.

by jpage78 on Nov 11, 2009 5:14 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

it also should be pointed out

that maybe the off season should be the time to address the power formation problem through free agency. I don’t see Hamilton surviving the off season if he makes it that far. My personal feeling is you go with the scheme that these guys are physically built for (zone) and you address the interior concerns later. Remember that Dennison and Turner are still here

by jpage78 on Nov 11, 2009 5:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Zone blocking

Doesn’t work in McD’s short/quick pass offense. The scheme is designed to open areas by having the D overcommit to one side leaving no defenders to give back side pursuit but the problem in zone blocking with the type of offense the Broncos are running is it leaves too many LBs unengaged and brings up the safties which causes disruption to the short passing game. The other problem is that you need a really mobile QB with a cannon against teams that use a zone blitz scheme on D, because of the use of stunts to bring pressure up the middle as opposed to the edge. McDs new offense along with Orton as QB and a zone blocking scheme would equal disaster and more turnovers than you ever seen.

by smalljaw on Nov 11, 2009 5:22 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I would agree if the Broncos hadn’t allready used the scheme this year (which McD said he would do). McDaniels scheme, according to him, changes week to week depending on the opponent (which makes the offensive performance against the Steelers doubly disappointing) He has a base, yes, but it’s molded to fit different objectives.

Yes, the zone blocking scheme disengages the safties and linebackers. However we had a problem with that anyway during both these games because we had zero running game and quite frankly the Steelers werent afraid of us streaching them. but let me ask you….in the power formation we essentially have Hamilton and Weigman (not all the time with Casey, definitely all the time with Ben) getting run over, and the linebackers and safeties come up the middle. Wouldn’t you rather be able to run the ball to offset the linebacker pursuit and get them off the short passes?

If you notice, in the Cleveland game and Oakland game there were pitch outs and end arounds…things that were used in the Zone blocking scheme. If I remember correctly these were the two best running performances the Broncos had this year.

by jpage78 on Nov 11, 2009 5:46 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Great points J.....and ypu an run a hybrid power form by going off tackle, and using toss and pitches. McDaniels has an infinity for between the tackles, which our O Line AND RB's are not built for!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Nov 11, 2009 6:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally disagree.....

The ZB scheme favors screens, underneath plays etc.
It also sets up well for the bootleg and the vertical threat….is that not what everyone is complaining about.
This then forces the CB’s and safetys to play softer and opens up the underneath game as you also have the threat of the vertical game.

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Nov 11, 2009 6:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

on ZB

I see a logical problem with the ZB and (not)-ZB assumption that underlies this topic.

I don’t completely dismiss the idea that there were changes to our blocking scheme that have contributed to our shortcomings in that area of the offense, but it would misleading to attribute our problems to adopting — purportedly — a non-ZB blocking scheme.

Here’s some other factors:

1) a drop-off in performance on the OL
2) regression to the mean (i.e., from last year’s anomalously good performance)
3) newness of the scheme (change = unfamiliarity)
4) last year’s success was in pass blocking for Cutler, the run game wasn’t used much
5) a misfit between personnel and the new scheme
6) changes at RB

I focus on the OL when looking for problems, and there have been numerous posts about Hamilton, as well as some comments on Wiegmann, that depict our problems as performance-related rather than scheme-related. I think that’s a substantial part of the story.

Also, on a related subject — much of the draft analysis here has focused on Interior-OL, primarily Center. My focus — however — has been on Guard, although I’d like to see us address Center, too. I believe it’s hard to change both positions without suffering adverse effects, so I’m for attempting to get one more year out of Wiegmann, as well as using Hamilton at Center and possibly as a backup OL, if possible. I’d like to see a higher pick used on an Interior-OL in the next draft (preferably a suitable Guard), and free agency can’t be ignored for solutions (in tandem with the draft).

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Nov 11, 2009 6:38 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

while I agree in principal

with the “performance” argument…I will say that both Weigman and Hamilton were far superior in the zb scheme because they weren’t asked to go “mano e mano” with larger 3-4 interior lineman. I believe what we have here is a “square peg in a round hole” event. McDaniels enjoys between the tackles running, however definitely our interior isn’t suited for such running. They just aren’t large or physical enough to do what’s being asked. Therefore we have the logical problem of not being able to get one yard on 3rd and 1. While that is never easy, the interior is being clogged up and run over…and it just won’t work.

However, like I said, this won’t solve all the blocking issues. These will be addressed, I’m sure, in the off season….now, IMO, we must adapt to the reality of the O line. Too small to do what is being asked.

by jpage78 on Nov 11, 2009 9:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

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