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Why History Won't Have a Way of Repeating Itself with the 2009 Denver Broncos

Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels signals a play during the first half in an NFL football game against the Pittsburgh Steelers Monday, Nov. 9, 2009, in Denver.  (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

More photos » by Chris Schneider - AP

14 days ago: Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels signals a play during the first half in an NFL football game against the Pittsburgh Steelers Monday, Nov. 9, 2009, in Denver. (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

Note:  This post is a joint collaboration between Douglas Lee and myself. You can't gather this much data in such a short amount of time by yourself.  So hats off to the guy that not only brings us "Horse Tracks" everyday, but gave me the very idea for this post.  

Now that the Broncos, Captain McDaniels, and First Mate Orton are sailing through some rough seas (a 2-game losing streak), you knew it was bound to happen.

Mutiny.

This shouldn't surprise you.  Perhaps you should be more surprised it took so long, given the unexpected sinking of the 2008 season, in which the Broncos drowned themselves after holding a 3-game lead through 14 weeks.  

The whispers are now circulating through all of Broncoland that something like this is going to happen again.  The sirens of the 2008 Broncos season are still with us.  Perhaps the current 2009 season is also destined to end with a shipwreck into a rocky coastline.

Star-divide

Even the landlubbers in the mainstream media, who had fallen all over themselves to praise the Broncos after a 6-0 start, are bringing up the idea of another late-season meltdown. Here is what Jason Cole had to say on Tuesday:

The Broncos and coach Josh McDaniels have been a great story this season, but I just don’t trust what I’m seeing. In particular, the limitations of the Broncos offense have been badly exposed the past two weeks against the Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers (Denver scored a combined 10 offensive points in those two losses). Quarterback Kyle Orton has done a nice job most of this season, but he’s simply too limited to beat good defensive teams when the Broncos can’t run. Denver also has four pretty tough games on its schedule (San Diego ChargersNew York Giants at home; at Indianapolis Colts,Philadelphia Eagles). That 6-0 start could quite easily become a 10-6 finish, if not worse."

And the boys over at RealScouts just this morning had this bucket of cold water:

A precipitous fall awaits the Broncos, who were the surprise of the early season, because teams have figured out Denver's soft spots. On offense, the passing game features a ball-control philosophy, and opponents have stacked the box, daring Kyle Orton to throw downfield. That's not his strength. Unless Denver can stretch things out a bit, the offense will struggle. The defense has also sprung leaks against no-huddle schemes. The schedule is not kind, either. The Broncos have road games against the Colts and Eagles and home games against the Chargers and Giants.

While it's true that Denver will lose another game or two, and furthermore, that Denver's schedule isn't exactly Ohio State's, the idea that the Broncos are going to finish worse than 10-6 is completely silly.  There are several reasons for this.  First, despite some perceived limitations, Kyle Orton's career winning percentage (66%) would suggest (not predict) that Orton will win 5 of the remaining 8 games.  Second, this schedule still has Oakland and Kansas City (twice) on it.   Third, the Chargers, Giants, and Eagles have been as erratic as a JaMarcus Russell seam pass.  So who knows which version of those teams will show up.  10 wins appears achievable and 11 wins possible.

Yet there's an even deeper magic at work this year that should put your mind at ease.  You might not even be aware of its obvious and awesome power.

This mammoth force is not Jay Cutler's ego.  It is Points Differential.  

As it turns out, the most important statistical measure of any team (aside from wins and losses, of course) is Points Differential.  This applies to all team sports.  Now, this isn't exactly a surprise.  I can see you saying, "Sure, the team that scores the most points wins.  Thanks for such deep insight. I think I'll go read another Orton vs. Cutler post." But before you do this, let me tell you that  we are not talking about each individual game.  We are talking about the size of the margin.  It's not a number we ever hear/read from NFL Network or ESPN or any other mainstream media outlet, which is exactly why you should focus on it.  Again, don't look at it as an individual game statistical, but as a running total.  It's this running total that will serve our purpose.

 

Correlation Between Points Differential and Season Wins

In a previous post on punting statistics and winning percentage, we explained the concept of the correlation coefficient.  It's a statistical method for understanding how one variable affects another in a linear fashion.  Throw this definition in the trash now (no need for more stats people in the world, they are like lawyers) and focus on the idea of correlation.   Just remember the scale runs from -1 to +1. As such, a negative number shows us a greater negative relationship between two variables.  A positive number shows us a greater positive relationship.  The greater the number as it approaches -1 or 1, the stronger the relationship between the two variables.

A quick example should suffice.  Let's say you wanted to know if there was a relationship between the number of punches thrown between coaches in a typical Raiders practice and the number of times Al Davis smiles during the day.  And after looking at the data you determined that the correlation between the two variables was .853.  This would indicate a strong relationship between Al's happiness and his coaches engaging in Raiders Fight Club. While we wouldn't say the fighting actually caused him to be happy (correlation is not causation), we would be pretty safe in assuming that the more more Tom Cable thrashes Randy Hanson, the happier Al gets.

So now that you understand correlation, let's go back to the correlation between Season Wins and and Points Differential.  For our data, we looked at all NFL seasons between  1999-2008, which is a very nice sample size. This is the result:

The correlation between Points Differential and Wins was 0.91

This is an extremely strong correlation.  It seems that it's not just scoring more points that matters, but how many more points you score.  Those that have the largest margins of victory win more often than those with smaller margins of victory.

A History Lesson

In 2008, we were conditioned as Broncos fans to focus on yards.  We heard countless times that the Broncos were the 2nd-ranked offense in football, that Denver was just an average defense away from being a Super Bowl contender. Several factors clouded our view of 2008.  First, the Broncos had the same won/lost record as the division champs (San Diego). Second, the season-deciding game happened to occur in the final week of the season. Third, Denver had a 3-game lead after 14 weeks. These factors all contributed to a very strong misconception among Broncos fans; we thought the 2008 Broncos were better than they actually were.

The 2008 Broncos scored only 370 points (16th-best out of 32 teams) despite having that "elite offense". They allowed a staggering 448 points, which placed them 30th in the league. This resulted in a points differential of minus-78; that is minus seventy-eight.

-78 is a significant number because when looking at the past 25 NFL seasons (1984-2008), a points differential of minus-78 means the 2008 Broncos were barely better than your average 5-win team. How's that, you ask? Since 1984, 62 different teams have managed to win exactly 5 games. The average points differential for those 62 teams was -84, which means the Broncos were a mere 6 points better than an average 5-win team from the past 25 years.   Have a look for yourself:


4102279012_b6eeff085b_medium

You can see that during the last 25 years the teams at the top of the NFL food chain have shown an average Points Differential of +195.  Further, their Points/Points Allowed Ratio was about 1.77.  This means on average, the top teams scored 1.7 times more points than they allow.  This is an important ratio and we will return to it shortly.  It's also interesting to see that 8-8 teams averaged a point differential of +4 and had a Points/Points Allowed Ratio of 1.01. This makes sense, since they were .500 teams.    Lastly, the teams battling for the overall #1 draft each year pick were  averaging a Points Differential of -174 and their Points/Points Allowed Ratio was .59.  In short, the worst teams in the NFL scored a little more than half of what they allowed.  

The point in giving you this information is twofold.  First, it's clear the 2008 Broncos were extremely lucky to be 8-8, with a gift win against the Chargers in Week 2 (Merci, Monsieur Hochuli). They were helped out by a missed field goal (our gratitude to Martin Gramatica) the next week versus New Orleans, and a dropped TD pass in Week 11 versus Atlanta (thank you, Roddy White). There were no games which went the other way in similar fashion; every Broncos loss was by at least a touchdown (four losses were by at least 20 points). So, take away those strokes of luck and the 2008 Broncos would have been a 5-11 team, or exactly what their points differential says they were.

The other reason for this chart is to show what the Points/Points Allowed Ratios are for each level of wins.  We can use this ratio to then look at our 2009 Broncos in order to assess if they are heading for the 2009 post season or for Davy Jones' Locker.

So let's now take a look at every team in the NFL through week 9 with at least a 5-3 record:


4101524363_05b10c2f85_medium

 

A few things immediately jump out from this table.  First, the Colts, Pats, and Saints really are the three best teams in football, with ratios suggesting they will each win 12 games. Second, Denver has a 4-1 record against the teams on this list.  This certainly would indicate legitimacy.  And third, Denver's own Points/Points Allowed Ratio (1.21) shows they belong with a least the second tier of elite teams in the NFL.

San Diego, in all fairness, isn't far behind Denver, with ratio of 1.15, so it's not as if the Broncos have a lot of room for error.   However, their ratio is lower, and likely signal a 9- or 10-win season.  Given that their schedule comprises games against Denver, Dallas, Philadelphia, and Cincinnati, one could easily see them ending up 9-7.

Of course, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the Chargers do if Denver simply continues at its current Points/Points Allowed Ratio, because their current ratio corresponds to a 10- or 11-win season through all 16 games. Since they already have 6 wins (instead of the 5 wins their ratio would indicate they deserve through 8 games), an 11-win season is more likely.

Relax, Broncos Fans.  There's no need to bring out your cutlass and force Kyle Orton to walk the plank.  Everything is shipshape in the capable hands of seadogs McDaniels and Nolan.  Brian Dawkins is in the crow's nest, and if he sees anything on the horizon, he's going to hold a team meeting so all the scurvy dogs fall into line.

This isn't 2008.   This is 2009, and these Denver Broncos are for real.  The correlation between Points Differential and Winning is simply too powerful to suggest anything other than a Division Title.

Go Broncos!!!

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You da man!

I too dabbled in pacifism once...

by waltersobchakbronco on Nov 14, 2009 11:50 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Solid!

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Nov 14, 2009 11:59 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Dude..............

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 14, 2009 12:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great work dude. I have been wondering about something?

Though I don’t believe the Broncos deliberately lost the game on MNF against the Steelers, do you really think the showed their whole hand? What I mean is, does anybody believe that our running game is that bad only making 27 yds? I don’t know and we may never know why they didn’t run more plays to outside especially when our offense kept their defense on the field 19:16 in the first half.

This takes me back to 1997 the year the Broncos would go 12-4 on the season and eventually beat Green Bay in the Super Bowl. On week 15 of that season the Pittsburg Steelers beat us 35-24 in Pittsburg. Some would say well there goes the season the Steelers can’t be beat. Well we went to beat the Jaguars in a wildcard game and then beat the divisional leader Kansas City to setup a rematch in Pittsburg. This time the outcome was different, we won 24-21 to meet the Green Bay Packers in the Super and we all know what happened there. I know people will argue that our running game was great then and it is absent now, but, back to my original question, is McD holding something back for the end? You tell me.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 14, 2009 12:25 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Bfree, this is an interesting point, and something I think deserves an entire post by itself

I think you can bet your butt that McD is not going to show Pitt or Bal (if they get in) anything similar as to these first 2 games. I wonder if we can get HT to weigh in on this. I will email him and ask him to do an article on it.

Your aren’t wrong to bring this up. I am of the opinion that McD does have more up his sleeve and did hold back some things. I’m not saying he played tentatively. I am saying he held back some of his playbook.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

held it back once he saw the writing on the wall

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 6:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

WHY

Would he hold anything back, thats crazy talk. Denver just got out classed in that game, and thats why they lost, no other reason and especially not because they are holding something back lol. Welcome to the land of not having a good enough QB to get the job done boys, and get use to it for at least this year. Orton’s arm isn’t good enough for long a passing game, it isn’t that hard to figure out how to stop that, and now teams are doing it. Being a old Bears fan i can safely say we both got screwed, but you got the pick’s. Doesnt a early pick in nexted years draft look better to you now? The bronco’s might want to think about drafting a QB next year.

by CPT.Caveman on Nov 16, 2009 5:39 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep. This was the dirty little secret of last season.

What I really like about this particular metric is that it tends to be fairly holistic, in that it encompasses all three phases of the game:

  • A defense that keeps the opponent from scoring, creates turnovers, and generates points.
  • An offense that is careful with the ball, is efficient in the RZ, and consistently wins the TOP battle.
  • Special teams that can provide good FP for the offense and the defense, and occasionally provide points.

Obviously you have to score more points than the opponent on a game-by-game basis, but in the long view, scoring differential/ratio is the better indication of consistency and balance, along with sustained success.

- Jason

I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV

by jubei on Nov 14, 2009 12:27 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Just realized that I never expressed my appreciation.

Thanks to both TJ and Douglas for the number crunching and the fantastic analysis!

- Jason

I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV

by jubei on Nov 14, 2009 5:49 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Jubei, thanks for the comments man. It is much more holistic to be sure and it´s very intuitive...I think

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 6:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey TJ, how much did that number fall in the last two games? I am honestly asking, not hating…

by m_d0231 on Nov 14, 2009 12:30 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

hey, bro, no offense takes, it's a legit point and question

The answer of course, is:

Denver: 17
Opponents: 58
Points Differential: -41
Ratio: .293

Clearly, a team that did this for a whole season would be on pace for a 7-win season.

Thank god we don’t go to Baltimore and play Pitt every week. God works in mysterious ways. He puts the Raiders on the schedule twice a year!

Your question also begs another question: what about strength of schedule? If I had more time I could have added this piece. However, in the post, we do touch upon the fact that Denver is 4-1 against these team and has 3 more to play on this list, so it’s not as if one can claim Denver’s strength of schedule skews their ratio in a positive way.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks guys!

Great post and Rec’d! Not that you need it be Rec’d, you’re on the main page lol.
But, I’m now intrigued to see what the schedules of the teams have been compared to these numbers. These numbers seem legitimate, and yet the patriots(1.96 Ratio) lit up the downright atrocious Titans for 59-0, and then the Bucs the week after 35-7. Their ratio is high, but their schedule is easier. And the Colts, who have the highest ratio, haven’t faced a real contender all year, the Texans being the best they’ve played yet. So, though our ratio indicates 10-11 wins, I think these numbers combined with our strength of schedule so far shows us a reasonable 11-12 win season.
Go Broncos!

by 3RingsHeProbablyKnowsSomething on Nov 14, 2009 12:41 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Great point three rings.

It’s clear from this post that Denver’s strength of schedule is very tough.

I suspect you will see our ratio improve in the next 8 games for two reason:

1) The players will continue to improve in learning the system.
2) Oakland again, Washington, and KC twice.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Great work. Im gald that im in stats class this year so i understand this! Hah.

Yah using the 66% winning percentage and then using the “Normal Appoximation” Method. (Geez who would of thought i would use school learning toward football?!) The chances that we will get from 10-11 wins(Playoff range) are 78.2%. Im not sure if this is right but it sound good and those odds are nice.

by Calibroncoboy on Nov 14, 2009 12:43 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

CB

Cool, my man. Do you think Champ deals in binomal distributions:-)??

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 11:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

We have not had an offensive explosion yet this year

That would be nice to see against Washington

by Whosbob89 on Nov 14, 2009 12:50 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Have faith, my Bronco friend.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 11:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant piece

As a staff member, I’ve had the unique privilege of watching this piece develop for the last 9 or 10 months. Doug started it, back long before there suddenly was a plethora of articles on effective correlation relationships. TJ came in in a bit and told me that he’d developed some correlations that were of interest and I had hoped that the two would unite forces. They did, and this one came out of it. Bravo! This is one of the best I’ve read. A perfect way to get – and keep – the Broncos situation in perspective. Thanks, gentlemen! Rec’d!

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 14, 2009 1:02 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Bear. Doug leaves his own set of horse tracks, from which I can follow.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:21 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Em

I know you’ve been wondering (forever) when this would show up…

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan

by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 14, 2009 5:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

All in good time, my (friend), all in good time…and it did. Congratulations – really great work.

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 14, 2009 5:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

New Site

Dane Noble over at WCG found a new football website for stat hounds.

ProFootballFocus

While ProFootballFocus is nicely put together with good stats, Dude puts it all into better perspective! rec’d.

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 1:05 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

TJ, I bet in your free time you put on your cape and SM costume, fly around Dentropolis fighting evil...

…and simply tip your head when people you save say, “Thanks Stat Man, you’ve saved the day again!”

I’m not giving up on 13-3. 13-3 Baby!! until it ain’t…

But I am giving up on Orton. I know I’m catching a lot of flack for this stand—but I also know I’m right. The reason we’ve lost our running game is because teams are stacking the box knowing that Orton, for whatever reason, is not comfortable with the deep pass. I’ll give you an example as to why:

That masterful catch and run Marshall had during the Dallas game was all Brandon…100%. I’ve looked at that play at least thirty times and had that same pass been thrown to any other receiver on our team it would have been an interception. I’ll bet you anything that Orton was holding his breath when he let that ball fly.

anyway, another great post TJ. Thanks for the stats.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 1:09 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

I'm of a belief that McD is holding the reigns on Orton.

I may be wrong but the play calling is one evidence of what has happened so far. Are we saving some bullits (deep passes) for a time when we need them. Deep down inside I surely hope so. I have faith in the HC that he will make adjustments to score more points, one way or another. And what we are now hearing that McD is a bad coach is pure hog wash. They will see.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 14, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

bfree, I hope you are right, and I know I've been a little 'Out of Character' on this subject, but I saw .....

….a lot of Joe Flacco in Brandstater in that final Pre-Season game. I’m not a "Orton Hater’ I just know that we have seen nothing deep to get excited about…nothing. This might be McDaniels’ plan—but I doubt it. If you look at New England’s offense over the last several years it has always included a handfull of deep passes….every game. Orton is a good ‘game manager’ I’ll admit that, but he is not a complete QB. Very strong statement I know….but….for some reason I think Brandstater is. I don’t buy the ‘let them watch for a year’ at all.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 2:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I too am an advocate of the long ball and have been disappointed that we haven't seen it. Yet.

Brandstater looked real good in the last preseason game and that leads me to believe that he will eventually be our guy. I have voiced my opinion on starting rookie quarterbacks in the nfl and the reason is, that the nfl is a whole different style of most colleges. He will learn McD’s offense on the sidelines this year and maybe be our starter next season. He is a very smart individual (masters degree in a short period of time) so that leads me to thinking he will do fine at this level. We remember all so well how Sanchez and Stafford were going to set the nfl on fire at the beginning of the year, but now we see where they really stand. Next year they may tear it up, we’ll see.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 14, 2009 2:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, but a guy that goes through four different coaches in four years, yet still improves his stats each year...

….then earns a Masters Degree in that four years…..can figure things out in a hurry. I’d like to see Brandstater take that step.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 2:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Mike, this is a hard one for me

because I think Brandstater is the real deal and I can’t wait to see what he has…

…but I love Orton too. I just like his toughness and I like to watch low scoring defensive battles. Emmett and I (and many many members of MHR) have discussed Orton’s struggles on 3rd and long (8+ yards), but QB rating doesn’t account for certain things a QB does, like the decision to NOT take a sack and throw the ball away. I rather enjoy watching Kyle throw the ball away and watch these games go 14-10 into the 4th quarter. Call me crazy, but I enjoy this team with this QB and don’t need to see 30 points a game. This is the team that is going to win the Division, my Kool-Aid drinking friend.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

TJ, I guess 'Stats' will tell the story. Funny me, Pre-Season I am 13-3 Baby! ..... period .....

now, until it ain’t, I want Super Bowl.

……………not going to happen with Orton. From the start of this season I’ve been talking about this funny feeling I have. I could be totally wrong, but think not. There is nothing wrong with throwing a rookie QB into the picture when you have a smart coach—and trust me—I believe McDaniels is smart.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 5:19 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Mike, is there any analysis that I can do of Orton that will convince you?

Or is this just a feeling that you have?

I know you’ve expressed your views about him not being able to throw the long ball and being skittish in the pocket. What am I missing?

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:41 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

TJ, I'm not sure which of the which it is. Just something I've noticed of Orton in the pocket. We should have no problem in Washington, yet, I'm worried...look at the eyes down...

something in Orton is worried.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 7:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I will have to think some more about how I can convince you about Orton

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 10:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

TJ, also I must say that TCU is beating Utah and I hate that also.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 7:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Lol Mike, you don´t even want to know my favorite MWC team

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 10:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know Mike...

Maybe it would have been an interception had he thrown it to any other receiver, but that’s why Orton made that particular pass to Marshall. Good QB’s know what kind of throws certain receivers can, and like to, catch. Watch the TD passes Orton threw to BM against New England again; they’re remarkably similar, just slightly over the defender where Marshall could pluck it out of the air and keep moving. He’s made that kind of throw to Marshall consistently so I think it’s as much Orton as it is BM.

Also, it’s a matter of the QB trusting his receiver to make the necessary play. Orton shows great trust in his receivers and more often than not, that trust is rewarded (as it was with Brandon). Interpretations will always differ, and since I respect yours very much, I’ll just say I disagree

.

by bowma101 on Nov 14, 2009 2:14 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

bowma, I also hope you are right...and thanks for being courteous with your disagreement...

I’ll be the first to admit that Orton is quite good with passes within the ‘ten-yards beyond the line of scrimmage’ range. That will not do however, Orton needs to stretch the field or teams will ‘stack the box’ every game every play.

Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

by Mike Clark on Nov 14, 2009 2:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

TJ's post

TJ – all I can say is “WOW”. This is the epitome of why this site is so da** great. I am finding my day is not complete without checking in to catch up. Thanx again.

by windblocker on Nov 14, 2009 1:30 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

glad we can help get you through the day windblocker!

Stats are useful to spot trends and relationships, but I’ve always admitted that “stats” bite on double moves:-).

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:27 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

I’m not much of a stats guy, but I like these features.

I sometimes wonder if I’m the only one out there that makes allowance for the fact that if the Steelers and Ravens play as well as what the Broncos got from them, other teams are going to get ‘exposed’ also— other good teams. Both opponents played extremely well all the way down to the details and nuance stuff.

As for the stacking the box thing, its a nice idea…but playing two safeties high for most of the game is actually the opposite of stacking the box. Throw in the heavy dose of off-man coverage both teams showed, and I’m very thankful that Orton has a thick enough skin and enough discipline to ignore these calls for him to force the old square peg into a round hole. Even if he wanted to force the issue, he hasn’t had enough time the last two weeks for anything to develop down field in order to please the Bronco Country masses. The fact is, Denver’s interior got dominated in both games and Tom Brady or the Vikings run game would have looked like crap had you been able to magically swap them out. The infamous Shannahan zone-blocking scheme has a long history of falling flat against attacking 3-4’s with strong front 3’s like Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

The ‘mutiny’ in Bronco Country is called ego defense. All those people that promised that the Broncos and Kyle Orton were gonna suck are going to grasp onto the slightest evidence supporting their previous bold claims and guarantees.

This team is going to be fine…although would stop short of calling them elite.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 14, 2009 1:31 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Agree, RE: Stacking the Box

Admittedly, I rashly deleted both the PIT and BAL games from my DVR, but I seem to recall neither team consistently stacking the box. Both of those front 7 units were good enough to shut down our rather anemic run game without much in the way of safety help. Yeah, Polamalu came up on some very obvious run downs, but other than that, the DL and LBs did just fine on their own.

Until we give defenses cause for concern with our run game, I would expect more of the same.

- Jason

I gather speed by you f***ing with me - EV

by jubei on Nov 14, 2009 1:52 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Stacking the deck

I loved how quickly this one about stacking the box and how you need the longer pass to defeat it has zoomed around the ‘Net yet again. The only problem with it is its lack of veracity – other than that, it’s a fine idea ;-)

Teams are, as PO points out, playing us 2 deep. You really can’t do both. What is being referenced is that teams are bringing extra linebackers because our Oline has been shaky. That permits them to stop the run and to blitz. What is being called stacking the box is just having the linebackers up at the LOS, which creates the impression that more men are being brought up close. They are, but it’s still the front 7. I wish they were leaving the safety at the line – the short passing game would be more effective.

When you read this kind of thing, please not that not a single example is usually mentioned. There are few – that’s why.

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 14, 2009 3:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

One thing that confuses me...

…and maybe you have some insight on this, Emmett (in fact, I think you brought this up somewhere else), is why they don’t use Scheffler more split out wide? This requires a team to either commit a S or one of the attack ‘backers to him. If they send a LB out, this should unclog the the running game a little. If they send a S, then you have more room to work mid-to-long routes. It worked very well against SD. It also utilizes an offensive weapon Scheffler who consistently produces when he’s part of a game plan.

All I can come up with regarding the last two weeks— with RH motioning from the TE position— is that McD decided that the match ups were so bad in the interior that they needed to get another lineman on the field to even the balance. It also extends the edges, but unfortunately KM remains in too much of a hurry and often tackles himself. But it didn’t seem to work. It just clogged up the running game.

Anyway, I’d be interested in your thoughts on this.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 14, 2009 5:02 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, good points

I’m in favor of using the TE attacks more than McD currently seems interested in. There are several offensive options that don’t seem to be a larger part of the current playbook. I don’ know the reasons for this, to be honest. I suspect that there is a lot that falls into the category of things that the coach isn’t going to let on, that he wants to keep away from other teams knowing as well. That will create a lot of speculation, and it’s justified. There seem to be possibilities that aren’t being used, and it’s not like McD hasn’t coached using them. In 2005, for example, the TE for the Pats gained a lot of yards. It seems to be a conscious decision, and I don’t know what’s driving it.

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 14, 2009 5:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

PO, Very nice post

McDaniels and Orton’s quotes this week were aligned with your analysis.

Pittsburgh was stacking the bock with a different look from their 3-4 almost every play. They weren’t brining the safety down into the box, but playing them 2 deep.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

That’s the thing, though— the logic that teams ‘stack the box’ out of disrespect for the Broncos ability to stretch the field doesn’t work…even if people are loosely using the term. I don’t know of any team that uses LB’s as back-half defenders. They see protection weaknesses that they can exploit. Add to that to the fact that the Steelers and Ravens almost always use LB’s aggressively (downhill), and the idea that Denver has been exposed as being too weak at QB is a complete non-starter. It doesn’t add up.

We’ve also played two teams with very good tackling S’s. They tried to kill the running game by attacking with backers and betting that their S’s will clean up any mistakes. They also generated tremendous inside rushes. Obviously Hamilton hasn’t played well— nor Wiegmann, IMO— and thats been far more damaging than pundits and vindication seeking Broncos fans want to admit. Its just a lot easier to pile on Orton again. Its one of the reason I pretty much ignore any analysis outside of here and NFP. The pundits no longer make any effort to get it right. They just go with the expedient route.

The good news is outside Philly maybe, Denver doesn’t face anymore teams that can as effective with this tactic as Baltimore and Pittsburgh are. They either depend heavily on outside rushers, have weak S’s, or both. Haynesworth is obviously a concern tomorrow, but Denver can work the edges and test their S’s. With more time, Orton can hit some double-move stuff and also get favorable match ups with Scheffler.

Sorry if I’ve been redundant on this point the last few days…but I have an allergy to all this missing the obvious to drive home an already debunked fallacy we see from the MSM analysts and the Denver media. I swear sometimes I find myself wondering what they actually do when the games are going on…

No more ranting from me on this. I promise.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 14, 2009 7:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot to add one thing...

…or expound on it— which is the historical weakness of the zone-blocking scheme against agressive 3-4 defenses. If people aren’t complaining about Orton, they turn the cross hairs on McD for abandoning a battle-tested running game. I agree with that to some extent on most Sundays, but history has indicated that Denver probably would have struggled in the running game against these two teams even had they stuck with the old running philosophy. Again, the running game has been solid enough most weeks. It is nothing new to see the Broncos struggle to run against these two teams. In fact, McD didn’t really even try to run against Pittsburgh. Nobody has been successful with that lately.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 14, 2009 7:25 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Help me out.

I was TERRIBLE at stats, both during my undergrad and grad days.

The first thing I noticed on the table was that Denver has the lowest points diff of all the teams listed. The second thing I noticed is that we are tied for second to last in terms of “ratio”. The last thing I noticed was that we are at 10 wins (on the first table) looking at ratios, but only between 8 and 9 wins if going purely by differential. In that light, the only “good” stat for us is that we are 4-1 against the teams on that list.

Where am I continuing to struggle with stats? lol

: )

(and rec’d, since I’m sure my math challenged mind is totaly missing the point)

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 14, 2009 1:41 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

HT, Anytime you weight in on a post, I better make sure to check my math!

But it’s a good question Doug and I faced. Does one use a counting stat (like total yardage for example) or a rate stat (like completion percentage).

Here we chose to use a rate state ( ratio) because we felt one can better apply this to the smaller sample size of an 8 game season (which, admittedly is not a large sample size).

But let’s, for the sake of argument, use the differential, 27. That would say we are 9 win team in a 16 game season. However, we’ve won 6 games already. So even if we apply the +4 differential of an .500 team, and we only win 4 of the next 8 games, we have a 10-6 record. This goes back to the 2008 season in which we had a few “lucky” wins. If we just use the cumulative number, one might say, if our number stays at 27, that two of our wins were “lucky” Perhaps one of those games is Cincinnati.

So your math is not challenged. It’s a question of picking your poison. The cumulative stat or the ratio. Doug and I essential made the call to look at the ratio because we felt it better applied to the 8 game current sample and the projection of the remaining 8 games.

This brings up an interesting thing I’ve found as I bring the weekly stats to people and also some of these stat “opinion” articles. Stats are actually easier to argue with than opinions in some cases. In order to argue with a stats article, one can simply:

1) Choose a different data set (say 1993-1998 instead of the 20 years that we did here).
2) Choose a different set of variables (instead of points differential, perhaps one might choose sack ratio)
3) Throw out the “correlation is not causation” mantra. I see this a lot, not just here, but everywhere. The answer is, yep. That is true. No one can ever say with 100% Iron-Clady certainty that one variable absolutely causes another thing to happen. We can simply say that it might suggest there is a relationship. So we just move on.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 3:03 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Got it.

So I wasn’t factoring in that we are already at 6-2, but we move forward with a stat that gives a a 10-6 record in any game we play. In other words, from this point on we should play 10-6 (or 5:3). So, put another way, we start at 6-2, with a proportion of 5:3 from here on out, and get a record closer to 11-5. (?)

I agree on the ration issue as well. I care less about things like total yards, and more about things like completion percentage and YPC. (Although there are several good arguments against YPC, I still like the stat). The one stat that I think is over valued is TDs to INT. But I won’t get into that here.

Thanks again!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 14, 2009 4:08 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

"ratio", not "ration".

That was my stomach writing.

: )

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 14, 2009 4:09 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

HT, I haven't looked at the correlation to that stat, but I will now!

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 6:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Cutler last year

The question is how did this super-powered offense (with Cutler) only end up 16th in points scored last season? I’d love to explore how much of that can be explained by Cutler taking “extra risks” when playing from behind. In other words, I wonder how much better our offense might have been in points scored, had our defense kept us close. This also goes both ways though, meaning how much of our defense’s problem was a product of poor field position given Cutler interceptions.

We have a strong defense this year, and we’ve seen how a couple of poor offensive showings can make our defense look more ordinary in the second half. I think it shows how in this case, a more effective offense can improve our defensive performance.

I’d like to see more disguised formations from McDaniels’ offense. We need more of that three tight-end formation, and then throwing out of it.

by tunesmith on Nov 14, 2009 1:47 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I Guess

Based on these statistics, the team that wins by more points on a consistent basis is the better team. Well. Gosh. That seems pretty intuitive. I really don’t need stats to confirm that.

It might be a good exercise to do a correlation on Pts Allowed. They say that “defense wins super bowls” after all. This analysis seems more focused on offensive scoring. Thus far, the Broncos are definitely not an offensive scoring machine. A Pts Differential analysis by default favors strong offensive teams. As an example the Orange Crush years had many extremely low-scoring matchups. Air Coryell put up massive scores. Marino’s Dolphins scored a lot of points but never made it to the big game. I am sure the result will be the same “well gosh” that the team that allows the fewest points wins.

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 2:08 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

EZ, I noted the same thing in the post.

However, size does matter:-)

And the most important thing you should take from this article is not that scoring more points is intuitive, it’s that championship and winning teams don’t just score more points than their opponents, they score a LOT more points than their opponents, and this is something you can use to apply to this year’s Broncos’ team.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 3:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Size of the Margin

I understand what you are saying and I saw your caveat in the article. I am just not sure I can fully agree with the suggestions from the data applied to this year’s Broncos since its predicate favors high-powered offensive teams. At best I think the data suggests that high-powered offenses with complementary defenses win more games. It is difficult to extrapolate any suggestions regarding a team with a low-powered offense and a high-powered defense.

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 3:24 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You are a hard man to please today, EZ:-) But I can understand how it might appear this way...

I would say that certainly the 8-game season is a small sample size. However, remember the 25 years of data that we correlated encompassed a entire variety of teams (2000 Ravens, etc). So this data isn’t just skewed towards high powered teams. 2009 does appear this way from the chart, certainly, but don’t be fooled, in the last 25 years there has been a number of Defensive Oriented teams that have had a good ratio.

That being said, Football Outsiders has said a number of times, and it’s a point I agree with: From Year to year, offenses are generally more consistent than defenses.

So I can appreciate your perspective, EZ, for sure.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 4:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

the data is just data - it's not skewed for or against

The entire game of NFL football is manipulated in favor of the offenses, particularly the passing game, in hopes of creating higher scoring games that are more fun to watch. Finding that the numbers reflect this doesn’t surprise me, given that fact.

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 14, 2009 5:49 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

a game of chance and inches

The problem with the high-powered defense, low powered offense team is it inherently will be a more risky strategy than the high-powered offense, decent defense team.

Keeping games close means that a single missed tackle, bad fumble luck, tipped pass TD (or Int) etc. could lead you to lose the game. Consequently, if you want to win consistently, you want to dominate the other team so thoroughly (high point differential) that “luck” becomes irrelevant.

Even the great Baltimore defense in 2000 (perhaps the best ever) lost a lot of games (11-5 I think?), because its low-powered offense left no margin for error.

I’m a big believer in point differential (a.k.a. “pythagorean wins”) as a much better predictive indicator of team performance than actual W-L record.

by cjfarls on Nov 14, 2009 4:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

EZ, I'm a bit puzzled

You use the Orange Crush as an example of an exception to our numbers. However, you obviously didn’t look at the Orange Crush’s numbers. In 1977, the Broncos scored 274 and allowed 148, which equals a 1.85 ratio – this puts them better than your average 14-2 team. The ‘78 Broncos had a ratio of 1.42, which is exactly the same as your average 12-4 team. The 2000 Ravens? 2.02 ratio. Marino’s SB team? 1.72 ratio, or less than the ’00 Ravens and ’77 Broncos.

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan

by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 14, 2009 5:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

Those are very interesting stats nyc. Food for thought indeed.

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 6:34 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

And you are right. I lazily did not look at the actual Orange Crush numbers. (blushing foolishly)

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 6:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

running game is the key

because it’s become clear we won’t see any down field passes to stretch the secondary if we get in a bind. That’s simply not the way that this offense is structured at the current moment. I’d like to see what they’ve come up with to free up some yardage in the run game.

I must dispute your “stacking” assessment. The Steelers weren’t stacking safeties to stop the run, they were loading up a 10 to 15 yard area between the line of scrimmage and the safeties. There were strictly used for blitzing and stopping the short passing routes. Their D line and linebackers were good enough to stop the run and drop into pass coverage. So the “stacking” wasn’t what we were used to seeing from a team just trying to stop the run. They were operating as if they weren’t afraid the Broncos would try to throw over their heads.

by jpage78 on Nov 14, 2009 3:10 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

The bottom line

To this poster’s mind there are two issues critical to Denver entering the playoffs with a real chance of winning. One, our offense has been limited in terms of using the whole field. Very simply, our running game and short passing game will become increasingly dependent on whether we can stretch the field. However, one defines it “stacking safeties” , 8 in the box, or whatever, defenses lick their chops when the field is shortened. Two, adjusting to the no-huddle defensively is a “have to” situation. We MUST have an answer to the no-huddle. Nolan will figure this one out but limiting our substitutions may mean our defense will not be as effective the second half of the season as we were the first. We need a couple of more studs on D to achieve championship caliber status.

by BroncoCUbuffs on Nov 14, 2009 3:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Two Issues

Stretching the field – that is not the issue here in my mind. It is that our Oline is not opening lanes for the RB’s. Defenses are dropping their safeties, not bringing them up. Thus they are taking away the long ball and forcing the short to intermediate game to the middle of the field. Defenses are then able to blitz and key on the passing game. I have to disagree with jpage that they were not afraid of the long ball. In fact, I think just the opposite. They were afraid the Broncos would throw over their head and so they dropped their safeties to keep the long ball in front of them. Effectively shutting down the run in the backfield coupled with blitzing gave Orton little time to throw further limiting the long ball and forcing the short and intermediate game. Our RB’s, WR’s, TE’s and Oline guys are not effectively blocking the most used counter to that kind of D which are screens and play action.

No-huddle – this actually creates good opportunities for us. No-huddle plays often misfire (penalties) and create mistakes. It is a matter of execution by the D and conditioning.

I don’t understand where you would plug in the “couple of more studs on D.” Where do you think the team needs improved personnel? I am not disagreeing. I am just not sure where you see weakness.

Finally, why are we talking specifics on this thread? The article is a statistical analysis leading to general suggestions regarding how well the team is doing.

by Endzone on Nov 14, 2009 4:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Follow up

I see D-end and a Malaluga type linebacker as the studs I’m talking about. Both positions tend to be “game changing” positions with the right “stud” so to speak.

The reason I posted this topic on this thread was indeed “off topic” if you will, but HT’s threads tend to make me think in deeper or alternate threads. That’s what I like about this site, people who write help me look deeper at my own thoughts about what I see as Bronco needs, now and the future.

by BroncoCUbuffs on Nov 14, 2009 6:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

While at the game on Monday

…I saw Pittsburgh drop the safties back in the first half….not the second. I heard McDaniels quote about them dropping their safeties back the whole game, and I was with a friend of mine who was also at the game and he said “they didn’t drop the safties at all in the second half, what is he talking about?” which is true. I reviewed the game again tape I have again and I didn’t notice the Steelers safeties dropping back at all in the second half. Polamalu made way too many plays for that to happen. In fact I only saw 3 deep routes the whole game, and two of them involved Stokely who was clearly a decoy.

by jpage78 on Nov 14, 2009 7:02 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome stuff Dude

With a degree in Econ and after taking countless stat and econometric courses through the years I can appreciate this piece.

by T.Dot_Bronco on Nov 14, 2009 3:36 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

thanks, t.dot, I am sure you can come up with a better mousetrap, but correlation coefficient is

an quick and dirty way to get a handle on a linear relationship between two data sets. Particularly useful for nfl analysis.

"Wait, let me explain something to you...I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or 'His Dudeness,' or 'Duder,' or 'El Duderino,' if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

by TJ Johnson on Nov 14, 2009 5:32 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

awesome presentation

I’m going to have to read it several times to absorb all of it’s implications.

If I could rec it more than once I would for the use of the sailing metaphor (given that I’m investing a great deal of time & $$ in earning sailing certifications :) )

"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by BShrout on Nov 14, 2009 7:29 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I've never been inside a college classroom.........

…and no, I’m not a Raider fan. I’m just trying to follow the logic and hopefully understand the pattern. After the first chart it says

This means on average, the top teams scored 1.7 more points than they allow

If it said the top teams scored 1.7 times as many points or 170% as many points, then I think I could say I understand and agree. Otherwise I’m still a little confused and in need of a few more math skills.

by sc31089 on Nov 15, 2009 4:06 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, SC!!!

You know, I thought I had fixed that, but perhaps I didn’t. You’re ABSOLUTELY correct and it should read 1.7 times as many points. Thanks for the catch!

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan

by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 15, 2009 7:09 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad to hear that

It all makes sence now. You guys did a lot of work on this.
Good job.

by sc31089 on Nov 15, 2009 8:22 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks SC - much appreciated

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan

by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 15, 2009 8:31 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs


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