Horse Tracks 11/16/09 - Broncos fall to Redskins and into tie with Chargers; Orton injured and could miss game vs. San Diego
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 16, 2009 6:06 AM MST
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Well, it was another rough weekend for the 2009 Broncos - and for several reasons, this was the worst. For the first time, the Broncos lost to an inferior team and struggled all day long to stop the run. (Me, I wasn't worried about Ladell Betts beating us. Apparently, the Broncos felt the same way...) Kyle Orton injured his ankle at the end of the first half, and Chris Simms was unable to make accurate throws or move the offense. In a stunning example of being out-coached, the Broncos' special teams allowed a fake-FG touchdown on 4th and 20, despite having seen the look prior to a Washington timeout. Personally, I was shocked to see Simms try to go deep on play action and throw a killer 4th-quarter interception. With Albert Haynesworth having just left with a leg injury and Simms already looking like a guy who hadn't gotten reps in a long time, I figured the Broncos would just run the ball for the rest of the game and go ball-control for the win. Yes, it sounds great to be aggressive and try to catch the defense playing the run, but with a backup QB who is already struggling? To me, that was where the Broncos lost the game. Knowshon had been running well, the score was tied, and Denver had great field position (just past midfield). Ugh. Well, Sunday brings the streaking Chargers in a showdown for the AFC West lead. Heal up, Kyle - although many didn't realize it before yesterday, we need you...
NFL - Redskins 27, Broncos 17 - Highlights with radio calls
DB - Redskins Postgame: McDaniels - Broncos TV
DB - Redskins Postgame: Report - Broncos TV
DPP - Broncos dealt 3rd straight loss - Mike Klis
DPP - Broncos lose at point of attack - Jeff Legwold
DPP - Simms doomed by lack of practice reps - Mike Klis
DPP - Krieger: "D" leads downfall
DB - Stepping In Under Center - Gray Caldwell
DB - Fourth Quarter Spoils Fast Start - Chris Gentilviso
DB - Redskins Postgame: Orton - Broncos TV
DB - Redskins Postgame: Simms - Broncos TV
NFL GameDay - Broncos vs. Redskins highlights - Video
DPP - Kiszla: A whiff of panic
DPP - Armstrong: Gut check time for Broncos
DPP - Going deep stuns Redskins - Lindsay Jones
DPP - Bye week break means bye-bye to early success
"In addition to Kyle Orton (ankle), defensive end Kenny Peterson (leg) and linebacker D.J. Williams (neck) briefly left the game, but returned. Both will be evaluated today."
CSG - Broncos lose third straight game - Frank Schwab
CSG - Tired defense fails once again to stop the run - Frank Schwab
CSG - Sunday's Broncos breakdown - Frank Schwab
CSG - Broncos notes: No passing the buck - Frank Schwab
KDVR - Tanaka's take: Losing month for Broncos
DB - Tough going in D.C. - Mark Cooper
ESPN - Denver Broncos drop third straight as offensive woes continue - Len Pasquarelli
ESPN - Falling Broncos, rising Chargers to collide - Bill Williamson
Redskins News
WP - Redskins buck up - Jason Reid
WP - Redskins' Ladell Betts fills in for Clinton Portis, has big day against Broncos - Rick Maese
WP - Planets align for Redskins on fake - Barry Svrluga
WP - Thomas Boswell: Sunday's performance was better, by a mile
WP - Mike Wise - A sign of positive change
NFL Results
NFL - Philadelphia Eagles 23 at San Diego Chargers 31
NFL - Kansas City Chiefs 16 at Oakland Raiders 10
NFL - Atlanta Falcons 19 at Carolina Panthers 28
NFL - Tampa Bay Buccaneers 23 at Miami Dolphins 25
NFL - Detroit Lions 10 at Minnesota Vikings 27
NFL - Jacksonville Jaguars 24 at New York Jets 22
NFL - Cincinnati Bengals 18 at Pittsburgh Steelers 12
NFL - New Orleans Saints 28 at St. Louis Rams 23
NFL - Buffalo Bills 17 at Tennessee Titans 41
NFL - Seattle Seahawks 20 at Arizona Cardinals 31
NFL - Dallas Cowboys 7 at Green Bay Packers 17
NFL - New England Patriots 34 at Indianapolis Colts 35
AFC West News
SDUT - Tomlinson delivers - Kevin Acee
SDUT - Defense bends, but doesn't break - Kevin Acee
SDUT - Rivers' barks cause Eagles to bite - Kevin Acee
FH - Unexpected Gift Rejuvenates Tomlinson - Nancy Gay
CBS - Extra motivation helps Tomlinson turn back clock - Tom Krasovic
FOX - Eagles' red zone issues give Chargers boost - Terry Bradshaw
KCS - Charles leads Chiefs to 16-10 win over Raiders - Adam Teicher
KCS - Raiders do major favor for Haley - Jason Whitlock
KCS - Brown and defensive reserves make big plays for Chiefs - Adam Teicher
KCS - Bowe, Chambers give Chiefs some stability at receiver - Kent Babb
KCS - Chiefs benefit from struggles of Raiders’ QBs - Kent Babb
KCS - Chiefs blitz: Succop again proves he’s a weapon - Kent Babb
SFC - Raiders hit bottom with loss to lowly Chiefs - David White
SFC - Ostler: Russell shows no improvement
SFC - Punt returns leave something to be desired - David White
OT - Cam Inman: When it comes to the Raiders' 'Chosen Ones,' it's better to laugh
OT - Monte Poole: Web of Raiders' despair on full display in loss to Chiefs
OT - McDonald: Tom Cable is losing faith in Raiders' JaMarcus Russell, but what about Al Davis?
NFL News
FH - Titans Owner Shoots Double Birds at Bills - Clay Travis
NFL - Speculation surrounds Westbrook’s latest concussion - Steve Wyche
NFL - Seattle RB Jones hospitalized as precaution after breaking rib
NFL - Steelers' Polamalu undergoes tests after re-injuring knee vs. Bengals
NFL - Bengals RB Benson sidelined vs. Steelers with hip injury
NFL - Colombo breaks leg, but not ruled out for season by Cowboys
NFL - Saints lose another cornerback when Porter leaves with knee injury
NFL - Panthers LT Gross breaks right ankle vs. Falcons
NFL - Falcons RB Turner will undergo tests on injured right ankle
NFL - Dolphins' Brown unsure about status after ankle injury against Bucs
NFL Opinion
NFP - Sunday rewind: Week 10 - Matt Bowen
SI - Bill Belichick made wrong call in Patriots-Colts game - Peter King
SI - The Jets are all talk; the Bengals are A-OK in the North - Don Banks
Y! - 'Salute' by Adams deserves a reprimand - Charles Robinson
CBS - Week 10 Judgements: Take it easy on the Eagles, OK? - Clark Judge
ESPN - Last Call: Wrapping up Week 10 - John Clayton
NFL - Bengals lead tandem of teams with statement games in Week 10 - Bucky Brooks
NFL - Chargers and Bengals emerging as legit threats in AFC - Steve Wyche
NYT - Maurice Jones-Drew’s Very Smart Play - Toni Monkovic
SI - Belichick's errant gamble may haunt Pats for entire year - Don Banks
CBS - Colts make Pats pay for Bill's unusually dumb decision - Pete Prisco
FH - Spygate to Stupidgate: Belichick Blunders - Jay Mariotti
NYT - Defending Belichick’s Fourth-Down Decision - Brian Burke
FH - Bengals Are Dysfunctional No Longer - Dave Goldberg
FOX - Bengals didn't follow Steelers' script this time - Alex Marvez
SN - Bengals sweep away Steelers, skepticism - Clifton Brown
Y! - Small things lead Bengals to big win over Steelers - Jason Cole
CBS - Bengals home free only if Ochocinco keeps it buttoned up - Gregg Doyel
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This Bronco team is in real trouble. Yesterday was a coaching debacle. The successful fake FG that was so poorly executed that Washington had to call a TO after showing their hand was the worst single piece of coaching I’ve ever witnessed as a Bronco fan.
It reminded me of Shanny going for the 54 yard FG with Prater vs. Buffalo last season. It killed that game and doomed our season.
Simms looked like a capable and competent passer on 0.00% of his passes yesterday, but McDaniels was thinking outside the box when he called for a passing play with Haynesworth on the sideline and Knowshow having what was easily his best game as an NFL RB.
A three game losing streak, getting blown out by good teams and losing close ones to bad teams, soft run D, terrible coaching, losing the TO battle, poor QB play, disgraceful ST play. This kind of reminds me of latter half of 2008.
This is my favorite website.
couldn't agree more
Josh isn’t the Mastermind we thought he was.
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
I don’t know. He sure laid a coaching deuce yesterday.
I think our entire season hinges on the SD game. Norv doesn’t scare me, but I can’t believe we got outcoached by dead man walking Zorn. That was a horrible loss.
This is my favorite website.
hey keep your heads up
Seriously the broncs are playin good ball…yall got Dawk, and hes the kinda leader that wont let a team falter for long (trust me us eagles fans miss him so much cuz of that leadership). Josh, well hes not Bellichic…YET, but he discipled under the man so hes had to have learned quite a bit….hes just getting his feet wet. I really think you guys take the West …………..and PLEASE STOMP THE CHARGERS FOR US!!!1
f@#K DEM COWBOYZ.....F#%K EM!
by northern eagle on Nov 16, 2009 11:07 AM MST up reply actions
Nice post!
Thanks, northern. Our attitude exactly.
And the cowboys stink.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
dont they
Cowboys stink…..dont know whos worse their fans or their owner
f@#K DEM COWBOYZ.....F#%K EM!
by northern eagle on Nov 16, 2009 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
Amen
Jones looks just like the German bad guy in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Somebody has to make an illustration out of that.
Coyboys are the Chargers of your division: soft, pampered, egomaniacal…and with the horrible habit of winning from time to time.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 1:06 PM MST up reply actions
that "Fake FG" TD was awful
but coaching did NOT lose this game…Kyle’s injury did…now I’ve read many of your posts here and @ Denver Post…you are a very smart fan…I agree with most of your stuff but I believe you have been pretty critical on KO’s preformance…well the fact of the matter is our season DEPENDS on him…if he is not under center come Sunday against the Bolts…the AFC west will elude us once again…
by PolarBear14 on Nov 16, 2009 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks Doug...
No idea where our team goes from here, they were terrible yesterday. Some of the worst coaching and tackling I have seen in a long time.
Man, O hope Kyle is OK! Him, Moreno and Marshall were our only shining lights!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Yep...his leg looked LIVE yesterday!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
what about royal
orton was a shining light? granted, he threw 2 deep balls to marshall but he could have helped put the game away with a completion to royal which would have certainly been a td.
Perspective
I learned a while ago not to get to too high or full of yourself when things are going well and not to get too down when things are bad. This would be the latter. We’ll bounce back.
The Schedule
isn’t getting easier, so we’ll see. The Jury is out, and sure hope I get back to eating crow about my 7-9 preseason prediction soon!
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
I agree Ralph
It’s good to take it one week at a time.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 16, 2009 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks Doug for all you do on tracks, that said...The Sky is falling, The Sky is falling,
I know, after a painful lose like yesterday, what now.
Maybe, were not as good as we thought.
Maybe were in a mid- season slump.
Just remember, were not the same team as last year, we will improve.
Next Sunday, I promise you, we will play a complete game, especially if our
Denver Bronco Fans show up. Well….are you gonna root for Our Team?
Fan or Boobird, you deside…
GO Broncos
Real Power, comes with the realization that One cannot change the Moment;
only ones perception of it: Atitude! JQM
Go Broncos!
I will always be a Go Broncos! guy, even if they were 0-9, I never give up cheering for them, but reality bites. The D was a sieve, the O was horrible with Simms. The Special Teams, well, aren’t they special?
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
Is there an unwritten rule that states the Broncos must have the league’s very worst special team unit/coach. Is there another team in the NFL that loses more games than us because of special team fiascos?
I’d give my right arm for us just to be average in this area?
This is my favorite website.
Is there an unwritten rule that states the Broncos must have the league’s very worst special team unit/coach.
That’s a great line, man! I was wondering the same thing. I almost think there’s a curse over the special teams.
by Gristle McThornbody on Nov 16, 2009 9:11 AM MST up reply actions
Late report on Orton
The last I heard from Vic and Gary, Orton was wearing dress shoes and walking without the crutches.
MRI today.
Barring any serious damage, I suspect Orton plays against SD. They haven’t been rushing the QB particularly well, so if the Broncos can give Orton a pocket, they have a good chance to move the ball.
And even if Orton can’t go, I think Simms, given a week of snaps, can shake off enough rust to run a less complicated version of the offense. The running game has to show up next week, though.
Is the game a flex game? Anyone know? Those extra 5 hours could be crucial.
not gonna be a flex
They were hyping Philly and Chi last night for next weeks SNF game.
by Broncoholic_07 on Nov 16, 2009 7:31 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Can we get a protective piece for his foot???
Everyone knows that the foot is the hand of the leg. He needs a foot glove. lol
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 16, 2009 7:32 AM MST up reply actions
I know. Being sarcastic si_ice........
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 16, 2009 8:21 AM MST up reply actions
SD's pass rush...
This is what kind of worries me. They weren’t doing so well earlier in the season, but Merriman had two sacks (I think) last week after having a pretty good game the week before. Honestly, I didn’t see how SD’s D did against the Eagles, as I was refusing to look at the tv at that point. Did Merriman get to McNabb at all? Or is he saving his next ‘cycle’ for Broncos week? ;)
At least deep ball appeared
That was amazing to see… sure two were blown coverages, but we also ran the play that I specifically was calling for last week… a double move pump fake to Royal, which if not for the grab by the CB could’ve been another TD. I hope the more dynamic pass plays stay in the arsenal…
D is becoming suspect again… as someone pointed out, this is eerily reminiscent of 2005, when our D started so strong and faded so fast. Let’s hope Nolan can right things in a hurry.
Simms is way overpaid. =/
You guys have covered the gambit of that fake-FG. What an absolute embarrassment. I read somewhere that the players heard the Redskins sidelines shout “let’s just punt” and bought into it. Really guys?? Really?
In other games, did you guys catch the super heads up play by MJD to take a knee at the Jets 1-yard line instead of going in for the score. We need heady play like that on our team, especially on ST!
And what about that SNF game. Awesome finish… gutsy call by Bellicheat; reminded me of Shanny’s call for the 2-pt conv. Get killed by the media if it fails, get canonized if it succeeds.
Orton was playing awesome yesterday. He throws a nice deep pass. I hope we see a lot more of it since Marshall looks to be back to his dominant ways.
What a weird and unnecessary loss. Priefer should have to hitchhike home after that fiasco.
This is my favorite website.
20 laps?
I think one pink slip is more appropriate and would make Denver instantly better (or less worse) I know that is a misuse of the English language.
This is my favorite website.
Heh, was just going for the more humorous and yet pretty humiliating approach...
Imagine seeing a ST coach doing laps at practice for all to see as punishment for poor coaching?
Orton clearly has the arm
But his deep ball is a bit flat. He needs to put a bit more air under the ball — but he can certainly throw it down field.
His bombs yesterday were on the money. Even the pass to Royal was good if not for the illegal bump and Royal’s bizarre route running.
This is my favorite website.
Agreed
“A bit flat” Really? Looked like three clean Superman/Brady/Manning arcs to me. And 67% on mega-drama deep balls is pretty darn good.
I had to re-wind the 75yd Marshall pass several times, reminding myself each time of the (unnecessary) knot in my stomach after reading, here, in mid August, how Orton “has not thrown a spiral since high school”.
Guess we can scratch the “Orton can’t throw deep and thus the team is doomed” theory. Like all oversimplifications it was a pointless diversion.
Perhaps we are just a young team with promise (a lot IMHO) but not quite yet fulfillment. Really no reason to be shocked.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:01 AM MST up reply actions
Orton has exceeded all my expectations. He is having a better season than Cutler and there is no question about that.
This is my favorite website.
Agreed. Hard worker. Smart. Leader.
Now my only concern with Orton is injury. Is he injury-prone? The dislocated finger at the beginning of the season is one thing, but that ankle worries me if for no other reason that it happened LAST year, too.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 16, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions
there is something to this kitten
but I would limit the concern to lower leg injuries, or injuries from falling awkwardly. When he scrambles, he looks like he is running on a conveyer belt going in reverse. It reminds me of a child learning to walk for the first time, and if you don’t catch up to them quickly, before you know it they are an awkward mess of arms and legs lying on the floor after colliding with the recliner (if you are lucky).
The dude has two left feet. I would not want to dance with him!!!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 11:42 AM MST up reply actions
Hhahahhahaha...
I can’t shake the mental image of KO running on a conveyer belt going in reverse! Great mental imagery for a Monday morning. I am a Team Orton guy, but kudos on this comment!
not to nitpick
but he was really 50% because of the other deep pass to Marshall that was nearly picked off by Hall.
good catch
but either completion % is near double Jamarcus Russel’s on dinks and dunks.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:49 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, flat. He throws the deep ball on a line
Not a bad ball, but the lower trajectory means he has to be more accurate, and it makes the jump ball more difficult.
It’s not a bad ball — and I’m a big Orton supporter — but it’s a place he can improve.
Jeff
That was the problem with Simms pass. Too much air.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Nov 16, 2009 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
I think Simms threw it late
The pass to Royal, while disrupted both by the (uncalled) hold and Royal’s stutter stepping, might still have been caught had Orton just laid it up a bit more.
I’ve noticed that on several long throws to Marshall, where he seems to have trouble going up and holding on to jump balls because they are still traveling forward moreso than coming down, if that makes sense.
Again: minor criticism, and an aspect of his throwing game that I think Orton can improve upon with more chances.
The D gave up a well scripted first drive TD and a 4th quarter drive for TD after a terribly deflating interception with a long return.
Don’t be down on the D. They are getting NO help from the ST and not enough help from the offense.
This is my favorite website.
true, they're not getting help... but run D is a concern
We’re letting too many long runs, too many 3rd down conversions, and some sloppy tackling. I would argue that even if you are not getting help from your offense and/or ST, you respond by getting a stop and getting off the field…
I’m not saying they are horrible (yet), just need to tighten things up some.
This happens when you have guys like Haggen, LeKevin Smith and Peterson in your starting front seven. These guys play hard and are doing the best they can, but we are still missing some talent on that side of the ball. The D has clearly outperformed based on good coaching and great effort.
But we are not missing talent on the offense or ST. We are underachieving in both areas. So I find fault where it is warranted.
This is my favorite website.
Good point
I actually missed the McBean injury … what exactly happened to him and when is he supposed to be back?
He has a minor knee injury and should return soon. But he has not been some mega stud or anything so I don’t expect an immediate improvement when he gets back.
We don’t have the talent to be a great D every week.
This is my favorite website.
Thanks.
Yea, I was thinking the same thing early in the season as well, but as we continued to dominate, I think maybe I fooled myself into thinking that this was a dominant D.
The NFL is a strange strange world… one week, you’re hot, the next week… you’re not. I’m still hoping Nolan can work some new schematic / coaching magic to turn things around and we can get back to our dominant ways on D. And hopefully, the ol Dennis Green quote won’t come true for us: we are who we thought we were!!!
I’d prefer for our offense to just play up to their talent level. That is the real problem with Denver and fixing this would solve so many other ills.
Our lack of scoring is losing games for us and so is awful ST.
Not poor D.
This is my favorite website.
That would be my 2nd preference
But it would be too similar to last year’s team for my tastes.
My first preference would obviously for the entire team to play better… like how they were playing vs SD. That would be most ideal. =P
McBean
He may not have been some “mega stud,” but if you go back and really watch him during the first few games, he was making a lot of plays that don’t appear in the stats, just generally causing havoc in the trenches. I don’t think it’s coincidence that our run D has become horrible AND that Elvis has almost disappeared at the same time that McBean was injured.
A silver lining?
Watching the replay of the fake punt….repeatedly…I was at least a little cheered up to see big ol’ Marcus Thomas busting his ample buns downfield, trying to make a play. Then I realized he got there at almost the same time as the DB. :(
Assuming Marcus didn’t blow his assignment leading to that TD, I just wanna say: Way to hustle, big fella!
A. Smith
It looked to me that A. Smith blew his assignment. He waved to M Thomas to cover the receiver and stayed up to defend the run. He should have dropped back to cover the receiver and let M. Thomas defend the run.
That isnt true.
Smith was the deep guy in case the ball was punted. He was nowhere near the line of scrimmage. He was the one that hit the receiver at the goal line.
Right....
but if he was the deep guy, how did Sellers get all the way downfield without our deep guy keeping tabs on him? I could only see half the field, so was Smith dealing with another deep threat on the other side? I think the pass was in the air for….oh, 45 seconds or so? I figured Smith had the speed to recover. Either way, I still think Thomas showed some hustle on the play.
Smith drifted to the right with the rest of the team when
the line and punter drifted over there. By the time the ball was thrown, he was over on the entirely other side of the field.
Regarding the play itself, I posted this yesterday in the postgame thread:
watch the plays again
they are two different trick plays, and I think that the plan all along was to use the first one to get Denver to show how they would react , and the second was designed to take advantage of it.
Ont eh first play, one guy flared out to the left before the timeout. This caused a coverage guy to rotate over to him and for another player to drop back to play a safety role.
On the second play TWO players flared out to the left, and Denver did exactly the same coverage. As the second player flared out, the confusion at the line was obvious. Several Broncos were standing and looking to the sideline and into the backfield, even as the ball was snapped. When the play drifted to the right, you could see only one guy in underneath coverage on two receivers on the left….one or the other was going to get open. The defender stayed underneath, that uncovered the deep receiver, the rest was history.
On the snap before the TD, I thought, "Priefer is out of my doghouse, look at how prepared the Broncos were to cover that trick play, great situational awareness." But then they came out and lined up the second time to do the trick, and as soon as I saw the confusion at the line, my heart dropped. Priefer might be able to train and teach certain situations during the week in practice, but he doesn’t seem to be able do it in the heat of battle. I think he is out of his league, and he is being outclassed by opponents on a regular basis.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks Jeremy
I missed that the first time, as I disconnected from all media after the game ended yesterday. Good take on the play, though.
I agree Styg,
Smith drifted to the right where all the action was and didn’t see Sellers until it was too late. I’ve watched the play a bunch this morning and if we’re looking to point the finger at someone, it’s probably not Phonz. Allow me to explain. Here’s the NFLN’s highlights to see what I’m talking about in the following analysis.
Washington pre-snap:
Initial lineup: standard field goal formation.
First motion: the left edge blocker (wide) and kicker (slot) split out to the left, holder lines up in deep shotgun.
Second motion: #87 goes in motions to right, leaving kicker alone on left. The formation is essentially a 3TE set with two WRs- the kicker split left and #87 split right. Sellers— who eventually catches the TD— is the TE anchoring the offensive right side of the line, another TE anchors the left side, while a third TE lined up off the LoS immediately to Sellers’ right.
Denver pre-snap:
Initial line-up: semi-standard FG block formation with edges loaded to rush and a couple guys just off the LoS.
First motion: Phonz immediately goes back to play punt returner/deep safety, Bruton splits out to man coverage on #87, and the rest of the D is in a standard nickle/prevent look with four down lineman, one LB @ the end of the LoS (DJ), two safeties about fifteen yds off the LoS (champ and McBath I believe), two CBs (Bruton and Goody), and A Davis is playing behind Dawkins and McBath in what appears to be a deep zone.
*Second motion: Bruton follows #87 across the field as he goes in motion. Dawkins has responsibility for the kicker and is lined-up over him about 20 yards off the LoS.
Once the ball is snapped, Sellers—lined up @TE on the right side of the line— pulls behind the offensive line to the left, while all other WAS receivers and TEs flood the right side of the field where the punter had rolled-out to. Dawkins takes the kicker and McBath takes the single TE on the left side of the line, while the D-Linemen drop into a short zone— everyone is covered at this point. Sellers breaks out in the flat and DJ thinks about following him, but motions to Marcus Thomas— a D-Lineman— in a zone drop to take him. We know the rest, Marcas cannot cover Sellers and Smith doesn’t see it in time, probably focusing on the flood right.
All indications are that the other players on defense were playing zone (the DL drops, Davis settling in his deep middle, Dawkins not coming to the line to cover the Kicker), but Bruton followed the motion man across the field indicating he thought it was man-to-man. If he stays @ home, he would be the guy chasing Sellars from the LoS, not #79.
I’m not confident enough in my defensive football knowledge to know if Bruton should have stayed home, so I don’t want to really point the finger at him either. Bottom line, someone should have been responsible for either Sellers man-to-man, or for the deep offensive-left portion of the field. To me, it seems more plausible that it should have been either Bruton or Dawkins, rather than Phonz.
That said, the more I watch the play, the more I take my hat off to WAS for great design and execution.
by ButteBronco on Nov 16, 2009 12:46 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
And I take my hat off to Butte...
…for GREAT analysis. I only wish it was on a more Broncos-friendly play. But rec’d for the breakdown…
Agreed... thanks Butte!
Also, one more thing that I’m not sure if anyone’s brought up yet…
That was an AMAZING throw by a freakin’ punter. In fact, I think it would’ve been a solid solid throw by a starting QB, but to expect a punter to make that…. wow…. just wow.
That was roughly 40 yards downfield and nearly the complete width of the football field (~50 yards?). So what is that… by my math, roughly 65 yards total!!
I think that could partially explain the D’s abandonment of Sellers too. It could be that Marcus and Phonz both respectively thought: “no way in hell is he gonna make that throw”
The more I review it… the more I agree… great design, great execution, and a PHENOMENAL throw by Hunter Smith. Man, maybe they should put him instead of Cambell. ;)
by tunga77 on Nov 16, 2009 1:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
It was a 4th and 20 trick play that we saw coming. And we still failed to defend it.
That is a pure coaching debacle and I’m saddened that Priefer was allowed in the building today. That guy is a huge liability.
This is my favorite website.
oh, btw...
Please don’t construe my comment above as necessarily absolving our ST players and coaches of all blame. I just wanted to point out that it was a heckuva throw by the punter as well, and perhaps that was part of the problem (defenders thinking it was an “unmake-able” throw by Smith).
Nice Butte!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Without the replay
I was not watching the player numbers very well. But whoever the DB was that was defending the weakside line is the one I am talking about. Someone told me it was A. Smith.
I don't know for sure either. It actually looked like a linebacker
You are right, the lineman shouldn’t have gone with that guy, but it was a well designed play. They had the flanker and the outside guy on the line roll with the punter to the right and had Sellers (I don’t know where he started, but it was on the right hand side of the line) leaked out to the left and went vertical. Smith, as the deep guy, followed the action to the right opening the far side of the field.
That play actually reminds me a lot of the play the Broncos run where the TE pulls behind the line and runs with the quarterback who is rolling out and is wide open along the line of scrimmage. Good use of misdirection.
Having said all of that, there is no way that play should have worked given the circumstances of them showing the play and then calling timeout.
There were so many screw ups and so much confusion that you can’t lay blame on a single player. When this happens, you only look at the coach.
This is my favorite website.
Disagree
The players on the field are the ones who actually play. I will agree laying some blame on Priefer, but not all of it.
When you have 11 dudes running around like morons on that play, you either have the wrong players or the wrong coach.
But you are right that players play. Alphonso Smith was way out of position and didn’t pick up the Sellers until it was way too late. Smith has really disappointed thus far.
This is my favorite website.
Whe I watch the replay, I didn't see 11 dudes running around like morons...
they actually lined up like they knew what they were doing. The bottom line is, someone blew a deep zone coverage, or if it was supposed to be man-to-man, someone didn’t follow sellers across the formation and cover him. The rest of the play was covered pretty well.
There certainly wasn’t any widespread confusion (“11 dudes running around like morons”). When the defense adjusted to the first motion, the players reacted as if they were coached on what to do, as they immidiatly shifted to precice spots and were calm during the second motion.
I’m not sure who blew the coverage, that’s beyond my football knowledge. I would be more inclined to blame the coach if the palyers did not adjust to the first motion so well and acted confused, but that simply wasn’t the case on that particualr play.
I understand the desire to want Priefer out of here, as he deserves a huge chunk of blame for a very under-performing ST unit all year. I would not be upset if he was shown the door today. I blame McDanials for that as well. First of all, he hired the guy and second of all, he’s ultimatley responsible for what happens on the field during games. Blaming this play entirely on the coach, however, just seems lazy to me at best.
4 Plays that Changed the Game
1 – Orton missing the wide open Eddie Royal
If he makes that throw – or if Eddie ran faster :) – the Broncos are up 21 – 7 and the game is over, as Washington couldn’t be more deflated.
2 – The Fake FG
This has been covered enough .. but how does that happen? But kudos to Hunter Smith for making that throw.
4 – Kyle Scramble
Throw the ball away son — throw the ball away. That injury costs us any chance in the 2nd half.
5 – “The Bomb”
They got the ball on the 40 thanks to a – Shuisim if you got em – kickoff out of bounds. Moved it to the 50 and were running the ball well .. and then for no reason Simms tries to force a long ball and misses badly. I don’t blame McD on this play, because it’s worth a shot – but the QB has to know not to throw that ball.
Orton did not miss Royal
Eddie was interfered with. He recovered. Then he slowed down (wrongly) for the ball and mis-timed his leap.
On Simms’ deep ball, everyone here and in the stadium was expecting a run to Knowshon. That’s a great time for a play fake. But there’s never a great time to throw the ball into double coverage, especially if you’re going to chuck it to the middle of the endzone, and not the corner, where an INT is harder to make.
+1
Eddie was held, then he stuttered and mis-timed his jump.
Marshall, on another deep try from Orton, short armed a ball that he could have caught and the play was broken up.
But at least they were taking their shots. And clearly, Orton has the arm.
Was Simms (at any point) playing well enough to call that play? That one falls on the play caller more than anyone else, including the woefully ineffective Simms.
McDaniels talks about knowing the smart way to approach critical game situations. The game was in the balance and Denver had the upper hand with Moreno running so well and Haynesworth hurt. It was not the appropriate play call in that situation. In fact, there was an entire playbook of plays that would have been better choices than the play that was called in that situation. If Simms had thrown even one decent pass all game, I could understand, but I believe you should win/lose with your best players.
In the 2nd half of that game, Moreno was our best player. Simms was undoubtedly our worst. That is all play calling.
This is my favorite website.
Not sure that play is designed to go to Marshall, specifically
That may have been one of the reads. Simms himself said he had him open but was late delivering the ball.
Still, he needs to know the game situation there; short pass, control the ball, take time off the clock with runs, grind for a score.
He - as in Josh McDaniels.
“Still, he needs to know the game situation there”
“he” – as in Josh McDaniels needs to know the game situation there.
Simms was nothing but terrible yesterday and should have never been provided such a careless opportunity to lose the game.
This is my favorite website.
originally i defended the play,
but watching the replay, it is a boot with marshall being the only real option.
i still have trouble questioning McD (i just dont know football that well, certainly no where close to McD), but we can probably assume that was at least the marginal attempt, to throw deep.
maybe thats ok though, maybe McD trusted his qb, for better or worse, to make the play or not throw at all.
moreno was running really well, which was even more a reason to use the boot.
all this hindsight sucks. i want to be looking back on what they did right to win.
"I just looked across the huddle to see the guys in the huddle with me: great offensive line, great talent at wide receiver, great tight ends, great running backs. If we execute and play the way that we should, it should be tough to stop us."
-K.O.
by Jay Fin Anderson on Nov 16, 2009 9:19 AM MST up reply actions
Word
i want to be looking back on what they did right to win.
Come on, SD. Does the aging, unsympathetic and bloated king deserve one more pointless year of self-righteousness upon his tawdry, pleasant-climate throne?
Or should the once and future shining, bracing city on the hill assert itself a year too early and wear this crown a size too large…to grow into.
This is good drama.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
Haha...
This is good drama.
Now, that’s the silver lining for sure! Our losing and SD’s winning does make for good TV.
But I still hate SD with all my being. Grrr….
Exactly
the “rivalries” with awful Oakland and KC just aren’t satisfying.
Absolutely agree re SD. We’ll all become rabid if Denver goes to 6-4 next weekend. Setting up fan rivalries for the next generation.
But if we win?
All is forgiven, McD is a genius again, Orton’s gutsy performance deserves Pro-Bowl looks, etc etc etc. I kind of liked those conversations, and am looking forward to participating in them again. It would sure make Monday easier to face.
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:44 AM MST up reply actions
This play was obviously huge yesterday's game...
but when you factor in all the circumstances, I don’t see how blame falls directly with McDanials.
Let’s look at the situation:
*Bonehead kicker gives us ball at 40 with 10:40 to go, tied 17-17.
*1st and 10: three yard run KM- Fat Albert gets hurt.
*2nd and 7: eleven yard run KM, first down.
*1st and 10 from the Washington 46: KILLER INTERCEPTION
We often criticize coaches for playing not to lose, and this playcall is the opposite. After two good runs, the WAS defense should be playing the run, and first down is always a great time to take a shot down the field using play action. Plus, WAS has been beaten deep three times so far in the game. Why not take a shot?
It’s not really that risky of a play— if a Marshall is running free or has man-to-man coverage, take the shot, if it’s not there, throw it away. It’s not that huge of a stretch for a coach to trust a QB— even a backup QB who is struggling— to take the shot if it’s there and throw it away if it’s not there. Perhaps the fact that Simms was struggling and ineffective was the reason he took the shot— if Marshall runs free, it’s a TD and we probably win the game no need to worry about Simm’s inefficiancy (a long throw to a wide open target is high percentage to say the least, even for Simms yesterday). If Simms throws the ball away, it’s second and 10 from the 46 and you run the ball.
There are plenty of reasons to criticize yesterday’s coaching and the playcalling, game management and overall coaching of Josh McDanials over the past few weeks, but this sticking point is a head scratcher to me.
by ButteBronco on Nov 16, 2009 11:09 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You said it better than me, Senator.
Everybody says that Simms shouldn’t have been trusted in that situation. But if you can’t trust your QB, no matter how badly he’s playing, not to chuck it up blindly like that, the enterprise of coaching isn’t going to work at all. Yesterday, I wouldn’t have trusted Simms to make throws in traffic or do too much where he had to read the defense in detail. But no matter how rusty you are, that’s a bone-headed throw. It’s easily reminiscent of that other guy, whatshisname.
This line of criticism has been weird to me. I agree that the Broncos called too many passing plays in the second half yesterday. But it was a good time for a shot down the field. Simms made a terrible decision. But if he does the moderately mature thing there, it’s either 2nd and 10 (throws it away) or 2nd and short (after a checkdown). And they’ve got more shots with Moreno and Haynesworth off the field.
I hear you guys...
For me, the great field position and Haynesworth’s injury meant the Broncos were in a great spot – as soon as I saw big Al hobbling off I envisioned a clock-killing drive, maybe running off another 4 or 5 minutes and pushing around the Redskins defense. Up until that point, Simms was making some awful throws. I didn’t think he was going to win the game with his arm, but once Haynesworth went down I thought, “That’s it. Game is ours – we just keep running.”
I understand the idea of going for the kill, but to me that makes more sense with Orton in there. Playing conservatively and running the ball there in the fourth quarter is not what I’d have called “playing not to lose.” I thought it was just the smart thing to do…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 16, 2009 12:00 PM MST up reply actions
Yep. If you are scratching your head ButteBronco, tead this one by NYC again and again. The only head scratcher is why we put the game in the hands of our least effective player.
What did Simms possibly do to earn the trust of his coach based on his play yesterday. He, at no time, proved capable of making plays with the pass.
Run the damn ball or throw nothing but short stuff. Win with your best players, not your worst. It is that simple.
We didn’t go down fighting, we went down by shooting ourselves in the foot.
This is my favorite website.
Don't forget Ayers dropping a certain pick 6
by Broncolorado on Nov 16, 2009 4:43 PM MST up reply actions
That's not fair...
expecting a LB to pick off a hard throw from point-blank range (3 yards, maybe?) is not reasonable. I’d call it a great play call by Nolan and good execution by Ayers. A LB picks off that ball probably 1 in 50 times.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 16, 2009 4:55 PM MST up reply actions
The O looked really god in the first half, evcept for buckhalters fumble
it was nice to see us going down feild a lot. Simms was a joke in the second half. What has happened to our D. We cant stop the run and it looks like our secondary is always out of position. Our run D up the middle is a joke, we cant stop anyone. McD and Nolan need to put there foots down this week!!!!
live and die blue and orange
on top of the loss
I had to (ok, I could have switched to KOA) listen to Gumble and Dierdorf, my God, they are the worst pair ever. They really really love the Redskins.
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
I tried that, too. The 850 AM internet feed for Denver radio is unreliable, but the ultra-reliable
Washington radio station (ESPN 890 or something) was abysmal. Sounded like two hungover highschool commentators.
Amazing insight like “Denver has always been an offense team, but the Redskins sometimes have good Defense, too.” “Both of these teams look like they’ve never played Defense before” (that in response to Washington’s second three-and-out)
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:15 AM MST up reply actions
Can we stick Simms in the backfield with a Juggs machine?
He can just point and fire. Someone send Kyle a massive pink & glitter filled get well soon card!
by legendarywalton on Nov 16, 2009 9:08 AM MST reply actions
Anyone know what the espn insider article says about the Broncos… says something about “the new plan for Denver post-Orton”
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
Here you go.... it's just some more ESPN "analysis"
After spraining his ankle during Sunday’s embarrassing loss to the Washington Redskins, Denver Broncos QB Kyle Orton’s prognosis runs a pretty wide gamut: he could play this upcoming Sunday in what’s become a crucial game against the San Diego Chargers or he could miss up to three weeks, per the Denver Post. As NFL Insider Adam Schefter reminded us on SportsCenter on Monday, Orton suffered an eerily similar injury last season while with the Bears, and he “was never the same QB the second half of the season.”
That means it could be Chris Simms time in the near future — by the way, don’t adjust your set, he’s intentionally using his left arm to throw. While his status as a Southpaw is visually jarring, his performance also left something to be desired: Simms went 3-for-13 for just 13 yards, was picked off once and sacked thrice.
There aren’t any inspiring players on the free agent market, so the Broncos are hoping that Orton can make it back by Sunday, or that Simms can make some huge strides this week in practice.
"I am not one of those who think that coming in second or third is winning." -- Robert F. Kennedy
by Ted Bartlett on Nov 16, 2009 9:13 AM MST up reply actions
thanks — you can kill your post now so we don’t get in any trouble =)
would rather just use brandstater — get rid of simms’ salary for next year
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
He got the foot off the turf.
The reports I heard were that he was walking with crutches while he had the ice wrap on his leg, but that later he was in his street shoes.
We’ll know more after the MRI. But if there’s no ligament damage, I expect Orton will play. SD doesn’t rush the passer well, and with a week of rest, there’s a chance Orton can go and be an effective pocket passer.
One thing he’s done exceedingly well recently is the play action fake. He’s actually much better at that than most QBs I’ve watched. That’s a pleasant surprise.
Now, if we can establish the running game, those occasional double moves will really open up the field.
And of course, that in itself will symbiotically help the run game.
Sigh. Just when things were coming together offensively…
Easy now...
Easy with all the “sky is falling” wrenching of hands. A performance like that yesterday is not uncommon coming off a short week plus having to travel east. Couple that with the fact that they played a hard physical game on Monday night. You get what you saw yesterday a flat team…
Get back home, regroup, rest and heal. That’s all we need for this weekend.
hard to avoid sky is falling
after 3 weeks of exactly who we hoped they aint.
but next week is a new week, against another team. time to move on, and hope for a great game in denver vs the dolts.
"I just looked across the huddle to see the guys in the huddle with me: great offensive line, great talent at wide receiver, great tight ends, great running backs. If we execute and play the way that we should, it should be tough to stop us."
-K.O.
by Jay Fin Anderson on Nov 16, 2009 9:21 AM MST up reply actions
The schedule has been brutal
Not necessarily the teams — though we did have a very rough stretch — but playing teams coming of their byes, short weeks, etc.
The Orton injury could mean a 3-game swing if he misses SD and NYG.
Like I said, though. Karma.
Next time maybe some Denver fans will think twice about wanting to bench a guy who is 6-2 — and who played poorly only when he had interior lineman in his face, or a gash on his finger.
True Jeff
I’ve had Orton’s back from the beginning, but tools like Woody Paige (although I appreciated Paige’s anti-BCS column today, perhaps he should only write about college football) were clamoring for Simms. Thus, those loyal Orton supporters among us, suffer a grievous price.
Brad James
by the Bradfather on Nov 16, 2009 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
FYI Frank Schwab of the CSG wrote me back on twitter re Berger
This is his tweet (and my tweet) if yer interested:
fs3142
The 65 yarder may save his job RT @craigary Any odds that M Berger’s a goner this week? Colquitt or Paulescu please
Seriously? One good punt and he’ll stick around?
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Simms was soooooooooo bad. How did he miss a wide-open Marshall on that 4th down? Ugh. If KO can’t go, Brand-Starter!!!! I don’t buy the no-reps argument, maybe that’s a valid excuse if he was missing reads or miscommunicating with receivers. 3 for 13 for practically negative yardage against the redskins? Seriously? Brand-starter cannot possibly be worse. Let’s hope KO’s ankle is OK…I knew he shouldn’t have shaved!
Is it entirely possible that Simms looked bad because he hasn't played in a game
in forever? I think people are judging him way to harshly.
I also continue to find it amusing how many people wanted Orton benched for Simms like, oh, a week ago (not saying you were one of those, just commenting) and now Orton’s injury makes everyone appreciate him (as they should) and denigrate Simms (as perhaps they shouldn’t). He’s been good in the past, if he has to sub for a game or two he just might be up to the task more than he looked yesterday.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Freeman's Doing Fine in Tampa
and Brandstater’s even smarter than Freeman (he got his master’s at Fresno State), so if Orton can’t go (CRAP), I wonder if Tommy B’s the way to go.
Brad James
by the Bradfather on Nov 16, 2009 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
I like Brandstater too...
…but I think the comparisons to Freeman aren’t exactly fair. Freeman is in a no-lose situation. The Bucs fully admit they are in a re-building phase for 2 or 3 years, so why not let the kid learn by taking his lumps, a la Peyton Manning? Where our boys are still in the thick of a race for a division title and playoff positioning. Not to mention, KO is young and still may be the future of this organization, so there is no urgency for the Broncos to find out who is their future.
Absolutely
Orton is the best case scenario. I could hear things worse than “questionable,” to describe an injured player. Thankfully, that’s all McDaniels called Orton at his presser.
Brad James
by the Bradfather on Nov 16, 2009 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
Pressure to see what he's got.
Not to speak for Jeff, but I think there is usually more pressure for coaches to get 1st round picks (especially QBs) on the field. This is especially true for tight-fisted organizations, because they want to see if the 1st rounder is worth the investment. There’s not so much pressure to “find out what you have” in a 6th round QB who is admittedly a “project.”
Btw is there any reason for me to watch the 2nd half?
I saw much of the 1st half yesterday (missed last 8 minutes) then had to leave, was going to watch the 2nd half online on NFL Rewind last night but tat was before I heard about the game. So I skipped it. Is there a reason to watch end of first half and the 2nd half or should I pretend it never happened? ;-)
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Okay thanks
I think I’ll catch up on Tivo tonight instead. My TV’s not that nice but I can’t afford a new one. ;-) Heh heh h…sigh.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
3 things that need fixing
Lose that punter – he is one of the worst and for sure the slowest I’ve ever seen. Lose DJ Williams and play Woodyard. DJ makes some “tackles” but that is automatic playing ILB. He is below average at best folks. and #3 play Peyton Hillis more. Change those 3 things and they make make the playoffs.
I was at a bar again, so hard for me to concentrate
But did I see Hillis in civilian clothes yesterday?! I know he’s had his problems this year, but it still boggles my mind that we haven’t played him more…
He was also gone from football for a week
due to a death in his family…
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
DJ makes "some" tackles?
DJ is the leading tackler on our team and his 73 tackles are the 10th most in the NFL right now. He also has 2.5 sacks, 4 passes defensed and has forced 2 fumbles. Recently our D has shown some problems but DJ Williams definitely is not one of them.
We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793
Rematch
Hi Ralphie,
I’m coming over to your place for a rematch. I know you kicked my hind end last time. But I’m felling better now. My pass rush is back, the O-line is making holes for LT. And Philip Rivers is just being, well, Philip Rivers. I’ve got two cornerbacks that shut down the deep ball game, and also this small little guy who wears #43 who tears it up on Special Teams.
Hope to beat you soon,
Sincerely,
Scut Farkus
Thought that would be a fun post Bronco Fans. I hope KO is healthy for it. As a Charger fan I’d rather play against your A squad than back into the division lead against your second team.
What IS IT about the Chargers and Broncos. My team starts slow every single year. Drives me nuts. Your team starts hot every single year. Then at the halfway point they switch places. Nuts.
Going to be a great game this week. Good luck.
it's gonna stink
if Scut beats up on Ralphie this week. I hope Philip Rivers sticks his tongue on a frozen pole!
It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. -- Thomas Sowell
LMAO ! ! !
I hope Philip Rivers sticks his tongue on a frozen pole!
This conversation is taking a turn for the better! Good attidude Broncos Fanatics! And thanks for stopping by to fuel it JYBaritone!
Go Broncos!
"Aggression, discipline, accountability, effort" Brian Dawkins 9/29/2009
"Life is a daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller
"He will always be a slave who does not know how to live upon a little" Horace
by PositivIntegral on Nov 16, 2009 10:47 AM MST up reply actions
Hahhahahha....
Good post….even if it IS from a Bolts fan! ; )
My only question….why didn’ t the sked makers put DEN/SD on for the last week of the season again?
haha well played!
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 16, 2009 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
I live in San Diego and their gloating is %$$#&&&(**!!! KILLING ME!
GODS OF FOOTBALL I BESEECH THEE TO BRING DOWN A BLIZZARD ON SUNDAY THAT PREVENTS ANY PASSING GAME FROM BEING POSSIBLE SO THAT VERILY WE MAY SHOVE THE BALL DOWN THEIR $#$#^%$%^$^& THROATS PLAY AFTER PLAY AFTER PLAY!!!!
WHAT SACRIFICE DO YOU DEMAND TO GRANT MY PRAYER? (please say the blood of Woody Paige and ten Orton haters please please please please)
Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.
Aww :-(
That’s the worst.
I honestly don’t know how SD fans get so gloat-y and cocky, it’s not like their team has done anything in the playoffs or ever, you know, won a super bowl. But every year their cockiness is reborn anew. Best way for that to end for now is, yes, Broncos win next Sunday. I feel for you, and it would make me pretty damned happy too.
Maybe you could find a Philip Rivers voodoo doll somewhere?
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Thanks Doug
Well November hasn’t been good to us. The bad news is that we have two more November games. C’mon Broncos, Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Biggest thing now is confidence
yeah, we have issues, but if the players don’t believe anymore, and have lost faith in themselves and the team, then we won’t win those tough games.
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 16, 2009 5:10 PM MST up reply actions
WOW
The comments blow my mind….Bench DJ Williams? Hillis would solve all our problems? WOW.
After this game i predicted 5-4 though we won. We are 6-3.
Good call for those of you and the media who wanted Simms to start!
We lost, but how many teams do you know that can win with their back up Quarterback? I realize Brady did well and so did Cassel, but our Backup is not a guy who hasn’t had opportunities, he was tried and found needing in Tampa Bay.
We have room to improve yes but jumping ship now when our team was supposed to be awful and we have a winning percentage greater than 50% seems foolish. If we go 6-10 I support this team…do you?
Thanks Doug for the Horse Tracks!
GO BRONCOS!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1014
interesting article about Simms, from 2006 right before he had his spleenectomy
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
by Todd Jewell on Nov 16, 2009 11:26 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
If Orton can't go, then give Brandstater the start.
He is the future. Simms was brought in to hold a clipboard. Lets see if he can do that without costing us the game. (yes I know there was plenty of blame to go around but if Simms can just keep the offense on the field, we win that game in spite of any other shortcomings)
Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.
by MrFNSunshine on Nov 16, 2009 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
But is he the present??? That's the big question.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 16, 2009 1:13 PM MST up reply actions
What is our present honestly?
Even with Orton, we have a long way to go before we are a team of Superbowl winning caliber. We still have a lot of work to do personnel-wise that we need at least one more offseason to address. If Orton can’t go, we really don’t have much of a chance of outgunning Rivers with Simms. Blood Brandstater and give him some experience in a big game with a divisional rival. We might even be pleasantly surprised at what we see. Winning the AFC West is a booby prize these days anyway. The Chargers aren’t going far in the playoffs regardless.
Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.
by MrFNSunshine on Nov 16, 2009 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
Superbowl winning caliber???
What part of this team, six months ago, said that we would be in a position to even make the playoffs, let alone win the superbowl???
At this point in the season, I’m pretty satisfied with where we are. We have 6 wins. If we can get to 9 or 10, that puts us in a great position to get into the playoffs. This season, I think you have your expectations way to high if you think we have an inkling of superbowl aspirations.
Josh McDaniels took one of the most historically pitiful defenses and turned it into a pretty good unit. He took a disgruntled QB and turned it into a game managing QB and a boat load of picks.
All in ONE offseason.
Frankly, I’m just thrilled to see the direction that we are taking. We may not be able to win the superbowl this year, and that’s completely alright. What makes me excited is that this team is building into something greater. This offseason, we are going to have trouble, thinking about who we should sign extensions with. That is a great problem to have.
We are moving towards a superbowl, and although it probably won’t happen this year, McD/Xanders are putting us in a position to win a few in the near future.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by Troy Hufford on Nov 16, 2009 1:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
And I'm thrilled with how quickly we're turning it around.
I’m saying that if we lose Orton for any significant length of time, my optimism that we are going to win many games with Simms as starter is greatly diminished and we are already in “next year” mode. Therefore, starting Brandstater to see what he can do in a real game makes sense. (To me anyway. Maybe I’m the only one.)
Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.
by MrFNSunshine on Nov 16, 2009 1:49 PM MST up reply actions
Orton is “questionable” as of right now, from the McD press conference going on
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
if he can’t go it will be Chris “for sure”
A truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity.
by Todd Jewell on Nov 16, 2009 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
Questionable is Coach Speak For
he’s playing. I’m not worried.
Brad James
by the Bradfather on Nov 16, 2009 11:51 AM MST reply actions
Let's hope
But of Orton can’t go, my vote is for Brandstater. Simms had a 7.5 rating?? And he looked, on the sidelines, like he’d been inhaling something.
He felt like the man that drew the first circle. Simple, and perfect.
From The Big Law, by Chuck Logan
I agree dude.
“Questionable” is exactly what I want to hear right now.
by ButteBronco on Nov 16, 2009 12:50 PM MST up reply actions
People complaining more about the called play than the actual interception must have loved the fourth down play calling in last nights game…
by lolcopter on Nov 16, 2009 11:58 AM MST via mobile reply actions
I didn’t watch last night’s game, but it’s a different situation. I understand Belichick going for it – your defense has been struggling, and now you’ve only got to gain 2 yards and it’s game over.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on Nov 16, 2009 12:04 PM MST up reply actions
omg, you missed a great one
Another great Brady vs Manning showdown! Regarding the Bellicheat call (sorry can’t help myself hehe), I said above that it reminded me of Shanny’s call for the 2-pt conv. Super gutsy… and you get killed by the media if it fails, get called a genius if it succeeds.
The only problem I have with it… is what potential message does it send your defense.
Yup
It was a great game. I also agree it COULD send the wrong message to the D, but I think BB has a pretty simple way to get his D to deal with it. He simply should ask them:
“If you were the coach, would you trust Tom Brady to get two yards in a crucial situation?”
Obviously, they didn’t get it done last night, but I think Brady has earned the right to be trusted in that situation.
Which brings me to another Patriots/Broncos offense question:
Why do so many 3rd and 4th down routes get cut off at the first down marker, or call for the receivers to run a comeback from the marker? A cardinal rule for every team I ever played on was to get at least 3 yards past the marker, so you had some wiggle room. I notice a lot of our routes (and the NE 4th down play last night) are run right to the marker on third and short. It frustrates me, but I wonder if there is a philosophy behind it?
That is a good way of dealing with it.
Also, I think this was the “Peyton Manning” effect. It’s pretty insane, but I think the threat of Peyton made BB make a call that he may otherwise not make in 10 / 10 games.
Agreed completely
The thought of Manning with ‘only’ 70 yards to go and 2 minutes left probably had BB clenched pretty tight.
I think they cut them off
at the first available opportunity. Time in the pocket, especially lately for the Broncs, has been a precious commodity.
In theory, wiggle room would be nice, but I think in practice, teams are lucky to make it to the marker in the first place.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 12:37 PM MST up reply actions
Styg...
Those are timing routes, aren’t they? So, in order for them to work, the QB has to let go of the ball before the WR even makes his break out or back towards the QB. As a result, doesn’t the WR have to break at a certain agreed-upon point (agreed upon by the play call)? I just don’t see how you would break it off at the first available opportunity and have the QB throw to the right spot (again, having to throw before you even make your break).
It’s funny… as I mentioned a bit last week, my buddies and are practicing for flag football next spring. And when I QB, those timed out patterns are sooo difficult to get right. The next hardest throw I find is the touch pass to a flared out RB.
LoL… not that I’m in any way shape or form anywhere near a real QB, but as we are conducting our “minicamps” I have obtained a new found appreciation of how hard the QB position can be. ;)
IF they are timing routes
than this wouldn’t apply, but lots of routes aren’t timing, “throw to a spot” based.
And when I say that the break them off at the first opportunity, I don’t mean that the receiver makes a choice about where to break it off (though he does make that choice to some degree, within limitations), what I mean is that they playcall is designed to coordinate the QBs drop with the distance to first down.
So on 3rd and 9 for example, they would call a play with receivers breaking off routes 9-10 yards deep, on the premise that the defense is going to be expecting a pass, and that they may not have time for the deeper drop that would be required for the WRs to break off 12 -13 yard routes. And of course a well rounded playcall would have a pressure relief outlet, such as the RB checkdown, and maybe one longer developing route in case the QB steps up or out of the pocket.
And good luck ont the Flag football!
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 2:57 PM MST up reply actions
In other words
the margin for error inthe NFL is so small, that I don’t think they want to compound the problem by trying to take more than they need in most situations. It is hard enough just to get the minimum amount needed most of the time….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 2:59 PM MST up reply actions
sure sure...
I guess your “cut them [the routes] off at first available opportunity” phrase didn’t make sense to me… because I thought you were talking about the receiver.
I think we are saying roughly the same thing, though my use of “timing route” may be off as well. On an Out or Curl route, the QB is throwing to a predetermined spot that the WR will need to get to. The QB will throw before the receiver breaks from the fly pattern, so really the receiver can only cut off the route at one spot and one spot only… otherwise, they risk the pass being picked off.
So I think what you were saying originally to ncm42 was that it is the coaches who are purposely deciding to shorten these routes a bit due to protection issues the last few weeks… not the receivers.
Cut them off a bit shorter and trust the receiver’s ability to break a tackle and pick up that extra yard. Just like that one football cliche… “get the ball into your playmakers’ hands”
we are definitely on the same page
Two thoughts, in addition to the above: the curl is frequently a route wehre the QB sees the receiver’s numbers before he makes the throw. Receivers like these types of routes because it allows them a moment to adjust to the ball, increasing the likelihood of a reception.
The other thought is about your comment on trusting a receiver to get that extra yard if need be… I believe it was Bill Walsh (Bear probably knows if that is right or not) who said that half of a teams receiving yardage comes after the catch…and he thought this independent of any particular style of passing game. So I would say the issue is greater than an issue of trust, though trust is still applicable. It is practically a matter of principle.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 4:47 PM MST up reply actions
Cool...
I’ll call the curl more during flag football then. ;)
I like your principle comment… seems apt for offenses such as ours.
There is still one thing that bothers me about this situation. I still can’t believe that our OLine has gone from one of the tops in the league to one that all of sudden is a liability. To the point, where we are now theorizing that the coaches are shortening pass routes to get the ball out of the pocket sooner.
Even though I’ve read a lot of good commentary and analysis from MHR about our OL woes, it still boggles my mind! But I guess, such is the NFL… nothing is ever predictable. =/
agree about oline enigma
Factors:
Harris out, Polumbus in. Polumbus has done ok, but he is no Harris. Yet.
Hamilton struggling, Hochstein (WHO?) in.
Overrated? Cutler can avoid sacks, and there was no doubt he helped our oline last year. He also unloaded quickly, for better or worse. that helped as well.
Colinski (I believe) described our regression to the mean on our Oline, and I think that is a huge factor, but having no consistency on the oline has been huge as well. Remember that Kuper was also out for a short period of time, which didn’t help with the consistency.
I’m watching the tape to see if there are specific snake oils we can apply, but more than anything I am looking forward to Harris’ return, followed by a subsequent “gelling” in time for what is hopefully a home playoff game. When the line gets back to consistent,our RBs will look soooo much better…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 8:13 PM MST up reply actions
nice... good stuff
I love chatting with you guys… last week was a great conversation with Bear on the deep ball… this week, good stuff on the OL and pass patterns with you, Styg. This is why I love this site! =)
At The Marker
You make a good point. The only philosophy I can understand is a timing issue. You want to allow the QB enough time to throw. Make the catch and fall forward and you get the 1st down. That millisecond longer it takes to take another step beyond the marker may make the difference in the play. ??? I don’t know
Thanks again
For all the answers. The timing aspect does make a lot of sense, especially with teams bringing heavy blitzes on 3rd and 4th down.
Fantastic Game, NYC! A treat for football fans. Actually lived up to the hype
Also, Peyton Manning is amazing
"Take what you can. Give nothing back!"
by Colorado_Kitten on Nov 16, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions
This is just a small point
but it was my breaking point yesterday: when Simms was scrambling around trying to get away, and he touched the ball on the ground to hold himself up….
I was laughing and crying at the same time.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 16, 2009 12:11 PM MST reply actions
Just rewatched the first half of yesterday's game
Wow.
Sometimes losing is all about letting a team hang around.
The Broncos scored on the deep throw to Marshall, Redskins counter. Then, the Broncos fumble after picking up a first down just inside the Redskins 30. Next drive, TD pass to Marshall; next drive, a penalty backs them up, then Orton and Royal can’t connect on a deep pass on which Royal gets held just enough that he can’t get to the ball. Next drive, the Broncos — after a penalty — run a draw on 3rd and 7 (Orton had been nearly flawless to this point). The Redskins score on the fake punt; the Broncos get the 3 before half time and Orton gets hurt.
That’s a half where the Broncos could have, legitimately, put up 27-34 points and been up huge.
That 4th and 20 conversion for a score, coupled with the Buckhalter fumble, changed the whole complexion of the game.
We've all been way too easy on Buck.
That fumble drove me nuts, in large part because the play was over and he was going nowhere by fighting.
I forgot about the draw on 3rd and 7...
now there’s a playcall that people who like questioning playcalls can get after.
Indeed
Marshall also had a shot at making another deep catch on a jump ball. My feeling is, if you want to be an elite receiver, you make that catch. He had the size and position. The ball hit him in the hands. But instead of going up and extending for the ball, Marshall short armed it a bit and allowed Hall to get his hand on it just enough to break up the play.
That’s a catch somebody like Fitzgerald or Burris or Johnson, et al, makes 8 times out of 10.
I try so hard not to question play-calling
As I’m ALMOST certain McD knows a lot more than me in that area. However, the playcalling before the half against Pittsburgh started it for me. Giving up before the half when you know the other team has the ball to start the second half? I just don’t understand it.
And with rare exceptions, the short screens or sweeps on 3rd and long drive me insane, but I just have to keep the faith that they fit in the coach’s philosophy for that game.
The 3rd down draw
Was the only play call I had a problem with. And even that I understand.
But Orton had a hot hand, and Scheffler looked to be getting open at will for 7-10 yards.
Meanwhile, Larry Johnson
is about to become a Bengal. They can have him. I’d rather go with Lamont Jordan than have that ass on my team.
The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".
Here is there chance
I wonder if all the fans wanting Simms to play over Orton all year are going to come out now?
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
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