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MHR Chalk Talk - Chargers at Broncos ('09)

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Well, it turns out the Broncos are much better than many people thought, but not nearly as good as some had hoped for.  After beating a group of pretty good teams (NE, SD, DAL, CIN) and two not-so-good teams (CLE, OAK), Denver lost to two pretty good teams (BAL, PIT) and lost to a not-so-good team (WAS).

All in all, the team is still 6-3, tops the AFC West, and has the tie break over SD.  So far, so good.  Now comes the bad news.  SD is a team that is starting to surge, while Denver has dropped three straight.  QB Kyle Orton is hurt and may not play.  If Kyle can play, he may not be 100%.  While Denver has home field, we have to bear in mind that SD has the "advantage of first loss", which is the concept in coaching that a team learns more from losing to an opponent than winning.  In the NFL, it is hard to beat a team twice in one season.

Frankly, Denver has a tough battle in front of them this week, and I'm glad that the new format for the MHR staff picks won't force me to pick this game.

Still, I think the future overall looks bright.  Really.

Star-divide

I was unable to watch the entire game against WAS because of my day job.  I was able to catch a few things worth passing on:

First, I like that Denver challenged the Redskins deep.  I saw both throws downfield that Orton made for long TDs.  I've always said that Orton can throw long, he just isn't schemed that way.  Did the WAS coverage break down and make mistakes?  Absolutely.  But that's not the point.  The passes were long and on target.  More so, the errors happened because the Redskins didn't respect the deep pass, and other teams may do the same.

Second, I've always been a fan of the officials, and always come to their defense.  This week is no exception.  I saw three terrible calls by the officials, but none changed the face of the game.  I also believe that none of them were "purposeful", as some folks like to claim when they see a bad call.  They were mistakes, and anyone could make them.  So I continue to love the officials, and can't blame the game's outcome on them.  However, the errors I saw were bad enough that I would imagine the League sent an acknowledgment to the Broncos earlier this week.  Here's what I saw (on nearly three back-to-back plays).

First, Brandon Stokley catches a ball with both feet well over a foot in bounds.  The catch is ruled out of bounds.  Denver doesn't challenge, since it was third down and the catch was short of the marker.  Any official could mess up this call, and I know I couldn't do a better job than these guys.  No problem.

But then, Denver punts the ball and an opposing player knocks the punter to the ground.  It seemed to me that the opposing player didn't even make an effort to slow down.  Combining the 15-yard penalty with the inbounds catch that Stokley made previously, this would have given Denver a first down.  Now I'm not going to begrudge the officials the first down for a couple of reasons.  First, Denver could have challenged the reception, but didn't.  Second, perhaps the official might have called it "running into the kicker" instead of "roughing the kicker", and the penalty wouldn't have made a difference.  Still no problem.  Except for one thing...

C'mon guys!  How do you miss a guy flying into the punter and driving him into the ground?  In Stokley's case, and in the case of Mitch Berger, neither player tried to be theatrical to get the call.  A good referee ignores theatrics, and only pays attention to what his eyes tell him.  Fine.  But why wasn't the assigned official watching the punter (as he is supposed to do)?  The only excuse I can think of is that the hit was so late after the punt that the official had shifted his focus downfield.  While this is understandable, it just tends to show how inexcusable the offending player's action really was.

At this point, even the announcers were siding with Denver, having noted both calls.  Had enough?

Soon after, the WAS QB fumbles the ball and Denver recovers.  Nope.  The official says something about forward progress and the whistle.  The announcers look at the replay.  The ball comes loose, the player hits the ground, Denver's player reaches for the ball, AND NOW the whistle blows.  The play should have been reviewed, WAS reviewable after all, and Denver clearly got the ball back.  Does it change the game?  I don't believe so.  Here again though, the announcers were stunned.  So was I.

The officials have the toughest job on the field.  Not only are they nitpicked by guys like me, but they have seconds to see the entire field and try to get a call right.  They have to memorize a tricky rulebook, and they get second-guessed by every fan with replay and slow-motion abilities.  So why am I bringing up these mistakes?  I've written a million times that I respect these guys, and will never blame them for a lost game.  Like the weather, illness, family tragedies, etc, the refs are a part of the game that players have to contend with.  The difference is that the refs are trying to do the right thing.  So here's a game with some pretty awful calls, and a game that we lost.  Are you hearing me griping?  I hope not.  I don't fault the refs for this game, or any game.  I'm thankful for the work that they put in, and the effort that they extend in trying to get as many calls right as possible.  I tip my hat to them.

So what happened to Denver?  For what it is worth, I think the loss of Orton in the second half was the critical factor.  We still need to work on some issues, but Chris Simms wasn't able to carry the load on Sunday, and Orton was missed.  Simms completed 3 out of 13 passes and had an INT.

The team IS working on those other issues, though.  Orton was allowed to make a couple of deep throws, and they scored.  I saw some more zone blocking than it seems we have been doing lately, and I hope this continues.  Our team has beaten a lot of good teams this year, and really only lost to one team that I would have expected them to beat with confidence.

SD has won every game since the last Denver game, including wins against the Eagles and the Giants.  When Denver played SD a few weeks ago, the star players of SD (including Antonio Gates, Darren Sproles and LaDainian Tomlinson) were inconsistent.  They seem to have shaken off the fog, and are now playing in good form.

Without Orton, I have to give the edge to SD for this game.  With Orton playing, but not at 100%, I have to give the edge to SD as well.  If Orton is 100%, we have the home field.  Now the concern goes to other injuries.

Ryan Harris at RT is still out.  Brandon Marshall (WR) didn't practice on Wednesday, and Correll Buckhalter was limited.  That is a lot to contend with.  Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

Here is a list of the notable (starter) SD injuries:

Both teams have key injuries all over the field, but no injury is as difficult to adjust for as the QB.  The edge goes to SD.  If Orton can play, and can play at or very near 100%, Denver has a decent chance.  Much of the playcalling for both teams may be focused on sizing up and taking advantage of the opposing injury replacements.

Denver's keys to the game -

  1. If Orton is out, go full tilt with the run game.  Even against a 3-4, the wide runs may be possible if Phillips is out.
  2. Stop Sproles in the screen game.  Consider assigning a LB to him.
  3. If Simms struggles as badly as last week, consider giving Tom Brandstater a try.

San Diego's keys to the game -

  1. Take away the run.  If Orton is in, pressure him into running on that ankle.  If not, take away the run and dare Simms to beat you.
  2. If Marshall is out, DON'T double Royal.  Denver has excellent depth at WR, as well as several TE receiver options.  Instead, take away the deep game.  Denver's throws are likely to be short passes, and the biggest danger is yards after the catch.
  3. Watch out for Royal on returns.  SD has an excellent chance to win this game on both sides of the ball, but can't afford to give up points or field position on STs.

If Denver loses this game, Denver is tied with SD in head-to-head games, and needs to win more games than SD from here on out.  If Denver wins this game, they get to keep a lead on SD, AND win the head-to-head tie break.  DEN has some tough games left, so there is little room for error.

This is the most important game of the season so far for the Broncos, so we'll see how well prepared they are.

Go Broncos!

Poll
Let's say: You're the coach. Denver has a critical game this week against the Chargers. Orton is healing from a tear in his ankle. Orton claims he can play on the ankle, but the ankle isn't fully healed. Do you...
Play him. Denver must keep the lead and the tie-break over SD to make the playoffs.
373 votes
Rest him. What good is Orton (or the team) if Orton re-injures the ankle, and misses several games as a result?
527 votes

900 votes | Poll has closed

9 recs  |  Comment 65 comments |

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I think it';s good to be realistic about this game

Denver has two games within the course of 5 days. They split them and they’re in decent shape. Winning them both is even better of course, and if they split, beating San Diego is best of all.

I think Simms, if he does play, will be a lot better than he looked on Sunday. I mean the guy works hard and has talent and has been good in the past. Give him a week to practice with the first team and he’ll be better. That said we’d rather have Orton in there of course, but only if he’s healthy enough to be effective. Otherwise he’ll look about like Simms did on Sunday.

Also Marshall sounds like he will play, and Buck is looking better too, so that’s good news.

They key will also be if the Broncos D returns to form or looks more like the iffy D seen over last 3 games. If theyplay like they did earlier in the season, get pressure on Rivers and cover the wideouts like they’re capable of they have a really good shot in this one.

Hope fans will be out in full force for this one, they’ll need the crowd.

The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".

by underdog on Nov 20, 2009 11:43 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

The fumble by Campbell

I find it hard to believe that we get this fumble and don’t absolutely handle the rest of the game. I know that it’s a long shot but we recover this fumble we likely score and then the whole scope of the rest of the game is different, and most importantly the possesion and clock situation are different which takes out the last minute drive for FG and Orton’s ankle injury. So in the most diluted version of reality I could come up with the refs are to blame for Orton’s ankle injury. :)
Obviously that’s a far cry but I do believe that any one play happening differently changes the course of the game, but that also being said I do not envy the officials in these games it is impossible for them to make all of the calls that occur.
Great post! Hopefully we can get the swagger back!

Or what did the San Diego radio guy say???

by JALefor on Nov 20, 2009 12:02 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

well i think what steve is talking about is that like 6 plays later?..

we stopped them on 4th down and gotten the ball back anyway, albeit on the 30 yard line rather than the 44 yard line

by march20 on Nov 20, 2009 1:24 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I voted play him, because I feel that if we lose this game we're screwed. :)

Oh and the refs suck – no remorse. As a fan, I demand excellence in play calling and if you screw up this bad then you HAD BETTER MAKE UP FOR IT this week against the Chargers. I want to see tons of blown calls going our way dammit!

uh yeah, that’s about all I got this fine morning. :)

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Nov 20, 2009 12:05 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather not rely on blown calls; can only imagine

how Chargers fans will bitch and moan considering they still whine about the Houtchuli call, even though the Chargers ended up beating out Denver last season anyway. Let’s win on merit and skill! ;-)

The commenter formerly known as "Dashiell".

by underdog on Nov 20, 2009 12:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

PLEASE do not let us win on a bad call. They WILL NOT shut up about it around here! They are strangely quiet when they get beat down hard. Just whimpering about luck other lame excuses.

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.

by MrFNSunshine on Nov 20, 2009 12:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't mind...

i’ll take a win any way i can get em. dun really care what the average san diego fans say anyway. i respect the opinion of those few guys who come to our site and are willing to have an intellectual discussion about football, but for the most part i just don’t care what chargers fans think

by march20 on Nov 20, 2009 1:26 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but I gotta live with these people.

For now anyway. Once I’m done with school, I’m going to look outside the area and see what’s available.

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.

by MrFNSunshine on Nov 20, 2009 2:19 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

mmm i'm sorry

it’ll make you a stronger person in the end though! patience is a virtue

by march20 on Nov 20, 2009 6:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The papers down here

can’t stop bringing that game up. I mean they won the division and it seems like they act as if they missed the playoffs. You are so right in the fact that when SD gets beat badly the are really quiet. No co-workers talked to me after we beat them 4 weeks ago and now they seem to want to talk to me……..pathetic.

2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Nov 21, 2009 1:23 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Charger fans are always bitching and moaning about something....

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Nov 20, 2009 1:27 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

+ infinity

2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Nov 21, 2009 1:23 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually want to change my vote

I voted put simms in but!!!!!

If Orton CAN play we should put him in now, win this game, and give Simms one more week of practice reps.

Of course this is ONLY if Orton truly CAN play

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison

"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble

by DenBronx on Nov 20, 2009 12:15 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I know Orton is a scrapper.

He wants to be in there no matter what and try to win the game. That’s what makes him good. I just worry about what happened to him while he was with the Bears. Remember, he came back too early from an ankle sprain and it ended up hurting him (and the Bears) in the long run.

If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!

by Trinidad Jack on Nov 20, 2009 3:37 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i voted play orton, but with an additional condition

play orton for the SD game, because winning it really does put us in fantastic position in the divisional race and it is more important the each of the next few games individually, then rest orton until he is 100%.

i would normally vote to let orton rest, but this is a very important game in terms of the playoff race.

by bailey disciple on Nov 20, 2009 4:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

This team will play for Orton....he needs to play. We cant afford to lose to SD and this game is WAY more important than the Giants game...

An another few days of practice for Simms and he will be OK against the Giants if Orton goes lame again!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Nov 20, 2009 4:52 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and on the REFS

That play where the kicker was run over………I hate to say it but I agree it was running into not roughing. Our player actually pushed the Deadskin on a course that would not allow him to miss the kicker. If you watch the replay slowly, the Defender could have veered off and missed if our player had not hit him towards Berger.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison

"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble

by DenBronx on Nov 20, 2009 12:17 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I haven't seen it again as you have.

FWIW, the announcers watched it one or two more times (not to mention the production crew, those who saw it and thought it worth sending up to the announcers). They seemed to think the call was missed. If you have it recorded, I yield.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 12:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the problem.

THEY DIDN’T EVEN CALL RUNNING INTO!!!!

[more at the bottom on this]

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Nov 21, 2009 6:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

They did call running into

If memory serves me correctly (and I was at the game so I have no video evidence) They called Running into, but that was not enough for the first down so I believe we took the yards from where the ball was spotted, to push the skins back.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison

"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble

by DenBronx on Nov 23, 2009 11:29 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Voted Rest Orton,

but, really if he can go and not be limited then you play him. Simms can handle it, he just needs to shake off the rust quickly.

IMO the real key is how well our D holds up to the SD O to keep us in the game. I really think the line was missing McBean in there so having him back is a good thing.

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Nov 20, 2009 12:29 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

If he says he can play, let him play.

Orton is tougher than a lot people give him credit for.

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.

by MrFNSunshine on Nov 20, 2009 12:32 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

+1 Sunshine

That’s what I’m talkin Bout.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Nov 20, 2009 2:56 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hoping for Orton, Resigned for Simms

The best hope of winning is Orton — I saw nothing from Simm last week to think he’ll be at all successful. And those who are thinking he played well in the preseason, I remind you that his playbook was limited and he wasn’t going against top competition. Simms (like Griese) is an NFL quarterback because of his last name more than because of his skills.

by DCJ on Nov 20, 2009 12:34 PM MST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

True but I also remind you

not to judge a guy who hadn’t seen any game/real time action in ages based on that one bad half. I’ve seen Simms play excellent games in the past and he’s smart. While I don’t agree with those who were once hoping Orton would be benched in favor of Simms ;-) and would rather have Orton in this one, I don’t think it’s fair to make assumptions about Simms based on his bad half. He’s got a good arm. I worry more about the rust and the playbook smarts.

There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos fan in Niners/Raiders country, and damned proud of it.

by underdog on Nov 20, 2009 12:36 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

why does everyone keep acting as though last weeks game does not count ?

Simms is the backup so is everyone refusing to grade him on his job performance AS THE BACKUP .

Thats what I dont get . Everyone says dont jump to conclusions based on one half well backups are judged on what they do in tight situations and is why one would use the term he is a good backup .

Im not slamming on Simms but he failed at his first test as a backup and he may get a chance to turn it around this week but this is not the preseason what he does count .

by Hoopforia on Nov 20, 2009 1:01 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

It was definitely a bold move on McD's part to go to the well a 4th time

knowing all to well that the Wash db’s would be ready for it. Simms certainly wasn’t ready to back up Orton in that game and that is another side of a team that makes them great instead of just good. Backups should be able to carry the team in case of an emergency or what are they good for? Taking up space? There are a lot of times where a backup has come into a situation and prevailed. Hopefully Simms will have a better head on his shoulders this week and I wouldn’t count us out just because he’s behind the center. Anything can happen in the NFL.

Our defense needs to make a statement this week and take it. There are no replays, it’s now or never.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 20, 2009 1:30 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

poor throw and read

not McD’s fault

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Nov 21, 2009 6:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Long passes

I was at the Washington game. Those long passes to Marshall were hardly on target. It wasn’t apparent on the TV replays but live we could see Marshall slow down and wait for them. He had so much separation due to blown coverages that it didn’t matter; credit to Orton for spotting him.

The play-calling when Simms went in was quite strange. Obviously the receivers weren’t used to him; that last 4th-down pass to Marshall was on-target but he appeared not to adjust to a pass with velocity.

Neither team looked as if they expected to win. Denver’s refusal to defend the “fake” seemed to turn the tide. Washington came out in the 2nd half with purpose, controlling the line of scrimmage.

by Tripucka on Nov 20, 2009 12:54 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

i liked orton's long passes...

..there was one pass in particular later on, in the back of the endzone to marshall between a corner and safety and orton fit in there. If hall had not made a great play on it, i thought marshall had a chance to gather it in.

i like what i see and i have faith in orton :). and i hope getting a few more reps with the team for simms might do the trick :D

by march20 on Nov 20, 2009 1:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

we could see Marshall slow down and wait for them.

And Cutler’s thrown balls that Marshall’s had to field like a punt (see my first fanpost if you don’t believe me). What’s your point?

Also I find it hard to believe that film of his route wouldn’t indicate him slowing down while seeing it live would.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Nov 21, 2009 6:20 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

With a healthy Orton

I would be almost positive that Denver wins this game.

But he isn’t. Whether or not he plays, Denver is at a distinct disadvantage. Three factors determine my opinion on playing Orton:

1. Orton’s health
2. Orton’s health
3. Orton’s health

This is the first time this year that I have not felt confident toward a Broncos home game. I do not believe Denver will win this week. There are six games left, and all the rest are winnable if Orton can do his thing (yes, even Indy, with a so-so run defense). Rest Orton and get him ready for that stretch. If Denver wins most of them, then the postseason is a reality . . . maybe even the AFCW championship.

IMHO.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

the main issue is that we could go from 6-3 to 6-5 in the course of 4 days also

it would be 5 losses in a row heading into ARROWHEAD and than after that we got Manning and the Colts coming in . There are 5 teams with 5 wins in the AFC and when you look at the probable division winners and the way the wildcard is shaping up we have to be very careful here .

by Hoopforia on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Play Orton. Inject him with pain meds and keep Graham and Hillis in for Max protect.

Marshall and Royal are good enough to win this game for Denver.

This is my favorite website.

by McGeorge on Nov 20, 2009 1:05 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I voted don't risk further injury...

..but with trepidation and fully aware of my blind optimist’s heart. I usually listen to my gut, and my gut isn’t really worried about this one as much as it should be. We wore San Diego the hell out at sea level, and don’t see how that doesn’t happen again at 5280. I also can’t come up with great evidence that we didn’t see a good effort from SD the first time. Everybody talks about how SD finally turned it on— but I think that started against Denver…and the Broncos still won going away.

I hope I’m right. And I hope that Simms real weakness last Sunday— his tentativeness— is mitigated by a healthier dose of practice reps.

I say keep the faith until the bitter end.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 20, 2009 1:15 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Tough call

I voted to play him…this is a must win in my opinion. We lose this game I don’t think we make the playoffs with the tiebreakers being held by Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Divisional home game is the most important game on the schedule. We risk losing him for a significant period then so be it because if we lose this game we may lose the season anyway.

by T.Dot_Bronco on Nov 20, 2009 1:16 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I change my mind.

Ton Brandstater…COME ON DOWN! You are the NEXT contestant on the Price is Right!

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Nov 20, 2009 1:29 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

tom b may be a better option than simms, but i can’t see bringing in a rookie without him having had 1st-team reps all week in practice. i think if you’re gonna choose (not be forced to play him if god forbid simms goes down too) to play tom b i think you have to start him.

we saw how difficult it was for simms to come in last week without 1st-team reps, and he’s played against 1st-team NFL defenses in meaningful games before. I’d hate to just throw a rookie in there.

by bailey disciple on Nov 20, 2009 4:16 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

To make a statement that referees are not criminal is absolutely untrue, just ask the NBA.

Referee’s are not all created equal and make mistakes (often for one teams favor) sometimes and we wonder what the motives behind the missed call were. I am not saying that all referees are crooks and get paid under the table to sway a game one way or another. That’s not what I am saying at all, but who is to say that they don’t. How many games was the NBA considering making null and void? Hmm. Three calls in a row that changed a game situation is suspicious wouldn’t you say? Not saying they did it on purpose or any other reason. I’m just saying. The fumble was the most notable to me and was a fumble that should have been reviewed. That was a terrible call and could have switched the momentum back to Denver. Referees to me are the necessary evil of all sports and have been the forefront of controversy ever since their inception. Good or bad.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 20, 2009 1:46 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

In fairness...

I stick up for the NFL’s referees. I’ve never stood up for the NBA refs. Frankly, I think the NFL has the best “officials” system in all of sports. I wouldn’t compare NFL and NBA referee systems.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 5:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

You are absolutely right and it is a system that we need to keep the balance in team sports.

I just feel that there has to be at least one person that has a prejudicial opinion in his or her call that slightly to turns the game in anothers favor. But, I agree with you on it, just hate the calls. Especially when they are looking right at the play from 5 yards away.

by bfree2bronc on Nov 20, 2009 11:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Many thanks, HT

Sounds like you’ve been very busy of late. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

For some reason, I’m optimistic about this game. As bad as the defeats have been, the Broncos led the Steelers in the 3rd Quarter and led the Redskins in the 4th. The Ravens game was the only true thumping in the bunch, and I just don’t feel that the Chargers will be able to exploit the interior OL in the same way. And their running game certainly doesn’t scare me, even if that guy running for 3.3 yards per carry has a famous name.

Wait, Chris Simms you say? Er, I’ve got a meeting to go to…..

by Chibronx on Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

+1

All I’d add to that is that SD’s interior, especially in protection, remains suspect w/o Hardwick, which plays to a demonstrated strength of the Denver D. I like the match ups in both directions, and think Simms is capable of executing a YaC/TE oriented passing attack that SD seems to struggle with.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 20, 2009 3:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

The major thing that worries me about this game is Orton. No disrespect to Simms, but I don’t see him winning this game for us (until he gives us a better performance).

And yes, this has been a hellaciously busy week for me. I’m only now getting a bit if a breather. Thanks for noticing!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 5:13 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

One game at a time

You can’t start planning for next week’s game or the ones after that. Just like the team says each week, we have to focus on winning this game. That means you play your best players if they can play. If Kyle can play, he must be in the game. Sure there’s a chance he could get more injured, but there’s also a chance he could be fine, and winning this game is the most important thing right now because it is the next game on the schedule. So the risk is worth it. I tend to feel that might be what went wrong in Washington. We didn’t take the Skins seriously and now it turned out that was a big mistake.

by afeather on Nov 20, 2009 2:46 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post overall Steve.

I don’t know if I can agree with you on the officials though. They are paid to make the calls. Just like a player is paid to make plays and carry out assignments. I definitely couldn’t do a better job, but if you’re getting paid, and you have experience in the area of officiating, then you should be able to make the right calls…otherwise, that referee shouldn’t be officiating the game.

"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".

"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.

by broncoholic on Nov 20, 2009 2:50 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Let's use that analogy.

No matter how well paid a player is, he is going to drop a pass, throw an INT, miss a tackle, or something like that. Refs are in the same category. Only the best make it to that level, and they do a great job. Just my opinion.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the Coaches insight Steve.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Nov 20, 2009 2:59 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Anytime buddy!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm shocked how split the results are...

I voted rest Orton if there is SERIOUS risk of further injury. We will need him against the Gints. We still have quite a few very winnable games coming up. 3 against AFC west opponents after this weeks game. This game will NOT decide the AFC west by any means.

However, if it really isn’t hindering his ability to make the passes, being the front ankle, then keep him suited up….In case Simms goes down.

A proud prognostication of 10-6 in 2009!!! (April 2009 prediction)

Revised to 11-5 due to reality!

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Nov 20, 2009 5:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

i disagree

this is a pivotal game in the afc west race… for more details than this check out my new fanpost..

if you look at the chargers and broncos schedule for the rest of the year, the broncos need this game because if they lose this and the rest of the season goes as expected for both sides, the chargers will have a better record and win the division.

by bailey disciple on Nov 20, 2009 7:56 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

For what it is worth gang....

…I voted “rest”.

Here’s my reasoning (and there is good reasoning on both sides). I put in the poll that the injury isn’t fully healed. My belief is that the only time to play a key player with an injury with the potential for weeks of missed time is during the Super Bowl or the playoffs.

At the HS level, I believe you NEVER play an injured kid, even if the competition is the state championship.

Folks are ready to write us off if we lose this game. This game IS a big one; the biggest so far. But if we are really the better team, we’ll go to the playoffs ahead of SD regardless of the outcome of this game. At worst, we can only tie the head to head match up with a loss. If we are better, we’ll win more games down the stretch.

But my bottom line is, don’t put a QB in jeapordy. An example of my exception is SB 32, where Elway “helicoptered” instead of sliding. Right call in the Super Bowl, wrong call if during the regular season.

Just my opinion, and no better than anyone else’s.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 20, 2009 5:21 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

what about putting him in during spot situations?

i think they did this during the cincy game (college football) where pike was declared “medically ready” but wasn’t completely back into it yet so they just used him for red zone situations, think that could be effective with orton? or would that just mess up timing for the receivers?

by march20 on Nov 20, 2009 7:00 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't

First, if he’s bad enough to hold out, he’s bad enough not to play at all and conversely – if he’s good enough to play, he’s good enough to stay). Also, the timing issue is a part of it. The change in the rythm of the game happens everywhere from the huddle to even the handoffs to RBs. My opinion would be he either plays as the starter or not at all. If there is any doubt about an injury with a starting QB, and the game isn’t the SB, I think it is best to swallow hard and sit the QB.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 21, 2009 1:01 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

This IS a pivotal game, play Orton

This game is extremely important in AFC West race. We win – we have 2-game lead due to tie-breaker over SD. We lose – we are at least one game down and maybe 2 (depending on other tiebreakers). We are staring at 3.5 games swing right here.

If Orton’s ankle is any good, he will ask to go. Orton playing will energize the team. We absolutely need this. We played flat in the 3 losses and we now need a spark to come back. Orton will provide it.

by si_ice on Nov 20, 2009 9:02 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post, Steve. Thanks for taking your time when you have so little of it right now.

I would start Simms. I think that Orton would be good for a little more than 1 quarter of football. I would save him until later in the game. Might need a relief pitcher or simply a spark off the bench. Playing the entire game may really wear on him and he could be gone for 2-3 games.

It looks like SD’s NT is a little shakey. May be vulnerable to the runs of Moreno, Buck and Hillis. We need at least 170 yards on the ground. Chris Simms should be able to hit something – remember the discussions before the season about him being the best starter in several people’s opinion? I voted for Orton but McD must have seen something in Simms besides a clipboard holder.

I have read where both Nolan and Andra Davis commented on the lack of discipline on the defense. Guys trying to do too much and not staying in their assignments. I think that that began in SD. I believe it will stop or guys will be on the sidelines. McBean is back – that will help.

I am taking our guys 28-17 over the Bolts. My guess is that Orton will be in in the 4th Qtr – taking us in for a TD and a FG. There is a lot of talent on this team if it plays together – and up to its potential.

Give ’em hell, Wild Horses!!!!

by Blackknigh on Nov 20, 2009 10:52 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Marshall will play

check out the injury reports for the past few weeks – it seems Brandon is being given an extra day off.

by mikebirty on Nov 21, 2009 12:23 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Not Good With Either QB

   As much as I am a Bronco fan, they appear done for this year, with an injured QB, a lousy back up QB (perhaps McDaniel should have shopped around in the preseason for a better 2nd stringer than Simms, as we all know that every team is just one play away from their backup QB), a 3 game losing streak, an exposed offense (it may work really well with Welker, Moss, and Brady, but they’re still in NE) and a defense that has lost its edge.

  If Orton plays, the Chargers will turn loose the blitz and he will be immobile.

  With Orton: SD 30 Denver 16
  Without Orton: SD 30 Denver 13

     If Orton really reinjures the ankle and is lost for the year, Broncos will be lucky to finish 8-8. Tuck and Umenyiora are already salivating for Thanksgiving day……………….. and they don’t even loke turkey!

     At least the collapse is happening earlier this year, so perhaps not so painful for us. I guess McDaniel isn’t such a genius after all…………. Broncs must hope for 9-7 and sneaking in the back door with the #6 seed.

by ZigNate on Nov 21, 2009 10:38 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

"not a genius after all"..

interesting… and you’re predicting a playoff birth when everyone thought we were gonna be a bottom feeder…

by march20 on Nov 21, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions   2 recs

i'm gonna disagree

firstly, it doesn’t look as if orton’s injury will keep him out that long. (if they’re thinking of playing him tomorrow, he can’t be that far from healthy) i wouldn’t worry about it beyond the NY game, unless he re-injures it and it gets worse.

that said, I think that even if we lose tomorrow 10-6 or 11-5 is still very likely (the questionable game being the Giants game). I think we have a very good chance of winning all our other remaining games except Indy. as a realist, I can’t predict a win there, but I wouldn’t say it’s impossible if orton’s back at 100% at that point.

by bailey disciple on Nov 21, 2009 10:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Genius

  Not predicting — hoping — for a playoff birth!!

  If you start 6-0 and finish 2-8, you are a bottom feeder………..

by ZigNate on Nov 21, 2009 2:51 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you about refs (for the most part):
I saw three terrible calls by the officials, but none changed the face of the game. I also believe that none of them were “purposeful”, as some folks like to claim when they see a bad call.

Ah, after my initial read I thought you were making the claim that blown calls never decide the outcome of a game, but after a closer look I realize that you’re saying you won’t let your emotional attachment to any team let you blame the zebras for a loss. Obviously blown calls rarely affect outcomes, but there are exceptions—Hochuli last year, for one.

Anyway, I still disagree with you about one thing—the non-running into call being accidental rather than purposeful. Normally I would agree, but since we’ve had Berger:

  1. He has been knocked to the ground once in all three games.
  2. The first two were obviously roughing (including bad shots both times to his extended leg). They were called running into.
  3. The most recent was obviously not serious enough to merit a roughing call. But it was clearly not kosher.
    This tells me that the refs have a vendetta against Berger. And I think that that has hurt the Broncos more than his kicking ability relative to Kern’s (not hard since they’re about equal, for different reasons).
    Note: my baseline for determining roughing/running-into is that roughing call from the Pats game, since I was screaming at the tv that it was running-into.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Nov 21, 2009 6:39 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

not too sure why it added everything after the list to 3…

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Nov 21, 2009 6:39 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff.

Hochuli didn’t affect the game last year; not by a mile. SD still had several plays left to stop the Denver TD, and failed to stop it. They also failed to stop the 2 pt conversion.

Also, SD did nothing to cause the fumble; Cutler just dropped the ball on his own. In other words, SD did nothing to deserve / earn the win.

Was the call bad? Yes. But it didn’t change the game. Not in my opinion.

The no-calls on roughing and running into the kicker are just strange. I’m reasonably sure the League has contacted the Broncos about this.

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Nov 22, 2009 12:47 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

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