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If he was good to go for 3 quarters...


....why not the whole game? Orton did what he could in the situation he was in...but this isn't about him...it's about McD. More after the jump.

Star-divide

I don't really have a problem with pulling Simms. He was playing ineffectively and it's quite clear the O line was having a horrible time blocking for a left handed quarterback. It's hard not to root for Chris, but it may be a case where the game has passed him by in the time he was out.

I'm more concerned about the thinking that Orton was ok to play for 75% of the game and not 100%. If Orton was ready, in such a big game, he SHOULD have started. Period. Chris is the backup and last week should have given everyone pause when it comes to Simms effectiveness. McD's explaination after the game was tepid and obfuscated the question. If Orton was ready to play for MOST of the game, he was ready to play ALL of the game.

As the situation unfolded we found that players grew more frustrated on offense (Bmarsh had every reason to be ticked off at the human fumble machine Moreno) and the D was just pounded. We were effective running the ball, and once again we went away from it. So strange.

I look forward to further clarification on why Orton didn't play the whole game

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Simms got all the practice reps. That answers your question all in itself.

"I got a ring, too. It says Love. Think about THAT."
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!!!"

by Zogernaut on Nov 22, 2009 9:45 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

you're missing the point

If you’re not going to start your starting quarterback. You put the backup in…and you yank him out quicker than I’ve ever seen a qb get yanked…then you play Orton what amounts to a whole game.

If Orton was well enough to play 75% of the game…then he was well enough to play 100% of the game. Clearly reps were not a consideration.

by jpage78 on Nov 22, 2009 9:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly - This is the question

If orton could play for 3 quarters he could have played 4.

by Bustafluff on Nov 22, 2009 9:55 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Orton came in with less than 5 min left in the 2nd qtr

Hardly a full 3/4 of the game.
Regardless, if Orton wasn’t able to practice all week, then he shouldn’t have started. Orton got put in after McD had enough of Simms holding the ball and missing reads.

"I got a ring, too. It says Love. Think about THAT."
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!!!"

by Zogernaut on Nov 22, 2009 10:06 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Based on the post game comments...

…I draw the conclusion that it was a combination of Simms ineptitude and a strategic decision to work primarily out of the shotgun. Out of the shotgun, you save at least a couple of drop back steps, ergo less wear and tear on the ankle.

That said, I’m not exactly sure I get it myself. I think it was clear that Simms was tenative to a fault, and maybe McD decided that it was hopeless to think that it would get better. I don’t think you have any chance at a QB in this offense if you don’t make quick and emphatic decisions.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 22, 2009 9:58 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

I see what you're saying but

 I think that determination was made during the week to go from the shotgun if Orton had to play. We all agree that Simms performed poorly (and was blocked for poorly) but it seems that if you are ready to yank out a quarterback at the end of the first quarter you clearly should have started Orton in the first place

by jpage78 on Nov 22, 2009 10:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know, honestly...

…just trying to come up with a theory. Maybe they thought Simms would be better and decided it was hopeless…I don’t know.

As quick as he got the hook, he might be on waivers by the end of the day tomorrow. That seemed like a big vote of zero confidence to me.

by PredominantlyOrange on Nov 22, 2009 10:08 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm afraid youre right

like I said…it’s hard not to root for the kid considering his story….but yeah, that’s not something you come back from

by jpage78 on Nov 22, 2009 10:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't often criticise but...

I would not have asked this question. None of us are the Head Coach. None of us are calling the shots. None of us are in that locker room. And NONE of us are Kyle Orton or Josh McDaniels.

The things we CAN get out of this are that:

1) Orton was not 100%
2) The longer Orton is on the field, the larger his chances of reagrivating or worsening his injury.
3) Simms did not get propper preparation before last weeks game. He did for this weeks game.
4) Simms was still too timid, and highly unproductive today, even after his week of prep.
and
5)Josh McDaniels has reiterated time and time again that he will make whatever decisions he has to make to give this team the best chances of winning. Period.

I would rather have Orton play 60% of todays game and us lose, than have him play 100% of the game, aggrivate his injury, and have Simms starting the next 3 games. This is a null issue and a question that really shouldn’t have needed an answer given the facts.

On an additional note: I don’t care WTF Moreno does, or how many times he fumbles it… that offense needs to be on the same side and stay optimistic, TOGETHER. The second I saw that clip of our two players arguing I was immediately befuddled and pissed. A nation divided against itself will not stand. Frankly I am not surprised we lost today if that kind of stuff is going on. We can only win as a team, when everyone does their job.

The officiating was horrible (not that we didn’t deserve many of the calls) and I didn’t think many of the calls were fair. Had they been more accurate the game still would have been about a 21-13 loss by Denver. We played horrible today, and the attitudes I saw on the field showed it. Arguing with each other, lack of pursuit, and poor execution. The ONLY things I saw today that I liked were Orton’s resilience, and good tackling. Schematically we gave up way too much, but most tackles were made at the first opportunity.

Anyways… I’ll shut up now. But really… I don’t like the question you were asking here.

ORANGE CRUSH! ... need I say more?

by USMCWall on Nov 22, 2009 11:34 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

If you will notice...

Orton DID re-aggrivate his injury….Merriman went low (should have been a penalty…hello…Brady rule) and Orton wasn’t the same after that. His limp got worse.

Why isn’t it a legit question? McD clearly had a backup plan to Simms flaming out…but since you played Orton a majority of the game why didn’t you start him. It’s a perfectly fair question.

It matter how much Moreno fumbles because he’s now hurting the team when he does. And it doesn’t make a lot of sense to penalize Peyton Hillis for one fumble and one penalty early in the year and then have Moreno make mistake after mistake. He ran well…then he fumbles. Remember, Buckhalter got benched after 1 fumble last week.

by jpage78 on Nov 23, 2009 12:36 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

although

moreno gets some allowance for the fumble issues since he’s a rookie and he’s doing everything else pretty well.

many great backs started out with fumble issues but resolved them after a year or two and went on to extremely successful NFL careers.

moreno gets a little more lee-way because he’s the RB of the future.

by bailey disciple on Nov 23, 2009 12:46 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The question isn't legit because Simms practiced all week, and Orton didn't, so Coach put in the player who had the reps

And the Moreno fumble today wasn’t his fault. He was trying to score, and Hochstein put his knee up and knocked the ball out while Moreno was beginning to reach out to the endzone. At least he is trying to secure the ball better, running with both hands on the ball through the hole, and keeping it high and tight when he breaks through. He is trying to correct his faults, which is a good sign for a young player. If anything, Marshall could learn a few things from Moreno, instead of chastising him on the sideline for something that wasn’t his fault.

"I got a ring, too. It says Love. Think about THAT."
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!!!"

by Zogernaut on Nov 23, 2009 1:31 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

And I think there was no expectation that Simms would be that bad

He must have looked OK in practice, and McD probably thought he could cover some with runnings plays (which sort of worked until the fumble).

The other strategy changer was that the defense was getting riddled. There was no way the Simms-based game plan could catch up to the Chargers at that point. Then you take a risk with Orton, because the game had just a small bit of importance to the season.

by ClarkFan on Nov 23, 2009 8:22 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I tried to put my points in a logical order so that they could be followed easily.

Zogernaut saw where I was going with them. Let me repeat them.

1) Orton was NOT 100% (makes sense to start a guy who is 100 healthy and let your other guy rest right?)
2) The longer Orton is on the field the GREATER his chances of reagrivating his injury (if that one hit from Merriman tweaked him a little, what do you think playing the WHOLE game would have done to his ankle??)
3) Simms did not get propper reps or prep for the game he crapped out in. (Maybe McD thought there would be a different player under center if he got all the same prep that Orton usually gets… sadly this wasn’t the case, but it was very worth trying. Did you see Orton grimmacing out there, I mean c’mon… even if you want to win the game, look at what the guy is going through. He needs to heal up, and every single minute you can save him from running from angry 300+ pound division rival players the better!)

You should get the idea with those. It’s a silly question to be asking. I thought the answer would be obvious but let me type it out black and white as it happened before and during the game in Josh McDaniels logical, practical brain:

“Orton needs to heal, we need him for the rest of the season. Simms wasn’t prepared for that game, but if he gets practice maybe he can do enough to get us by until playing Orton isn’t a major injury risk. Simms has a rough start, wait crap, his second drive isn’t going well. Should I put in Tom, no, he’s as unprepared as Simms was last week. Let’s put Orton in now this game could get away from us.”

a.k.a. We need him alive and well for the remaing 6 games. Why risk the season on him for one win, when you sacrifice it for multiple wins later?

ORANGE CRUSH! ... need I say more?

by USMCWall on Nov 23, 2009 4:20 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree with most of your points, but...

we don’t know exactly what the dynamic on the sidelines was and it’s hard to say if marshall’s apparent calling out of moreno was a primadonna move or a dawkins-calling-out-a-player-for-a-legit-mistake-type of leadership move. marshall’s attitude in the post-game comments would suggest the latter, although the 4th quarter series where marshall became very animated in his frustration and was unprofessional in doing so would suggest the former. simply put — none of us were there, and none of us know what that was, so i’d reserve judgement on the division of the team talk.

i am not sure the officiating was spectacular, but it’s hard to put 10 points on the board for denver and take 11 off for SD because of it.

i agree with the rest of what you said though…

by bailey disciple on Nov 23, 2009 12:44 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The only call that I thought was blantant was the low hit from Merri-roids on Orton

Utter idiocy by the officiating crew. I knew the game was lost at that moment.

"I got a ring, too. It says Love. Think about THAT."
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!!!"

by Zogernaut on Nov 23, 2009 1:34 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Bailey Disciple

Yes, you make a legitimate point. But it just didn’t feel right. It’s not like it was an outright fumble doing something stupid. He was stretching the ball out in an even more protected fashion that Brandon does (who stretches it out with ONE hand when he’s nowhere near the goaline or EVEN a first down) and it was an unfortunate bump from our own player’s knee, not the opponent’s swinging hand. Not a single thing a person has said to the media with regards to Moreno even at all indicates a selfish, defensive attitude (the kind of attitude that has plagued Marshall for as long as we’ve been enjoying his company) that would spark a reaction like that. And I didn’t just see it once. When they played the full clip of it later I rewound it and watched it again. Marshall started it, and got into his face rudely enough that the passionatly game-focused Moreno had to address.

No, I wasn’t there on the sidelines. No, I haven’t been inside the lockeroom. But you don’t have to be to see a problem like that when they put the evidence out in plain sight. The surrounding teamates were quick to silence the exchange (which means that the rest of the team had the right goals in mind) but at that moment in time Marshall and Moreno had two very different opinions about something and it WAS causing a division between them at the moment. That’s not good for the team, no matter how you cut it.

As far as the points go we lost possesion in field goal range once (3 points) and Moreno’s TD/Fumble (7 points, or 6 if you want to get technical to a tune of 9 or 10 total points for us) both possession changes SD scored on (14 points), effectively taking away at least a possesion and a half clock-wise (as they’d have gotten the ball back anyways after scores, but a continued drive would have eaten a bit of the play clock and possibly eliminated their final scoring drive so maybe settling for a field goal, which would be 10 points, not 11). Anyways, I was just throwing some numbers out there based on what I felt, because you can “what if” everything to make it a 30-3 Denver win if you want to, but I try to be fairly realistic.

ORANGE CRUSH! ... need I say more?

by USMCWall on Nov 23, 2009 4:37 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

to answer the question as a whole

It sounds like McD thought Simms would play better than he did. He had been saying in all the pre-game interviews that Simms had a great week in practice and that he believed that, with a full week of first team reps, Simms could be successful against SD. he also must have thought that while Orton’s injury was not terrible, he was clearly not 100% and had not practiced all week. McD thought that Simms gave us the best chance to win.

By the middle of the second quarter, his faith in Simms was clearly proven to be misplaced. at this point, McDaniels continued to do what he thought would give his team the best chance to win by putting the still-injured and unpracticed Orton in for the rest of the game.

by bailey disciple on Nov 23, 2009 12:53 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

In my opinion, it meant that McD was hoping simms could play at full game speed.

Unfortunately, Simms could not do that. Orton was not fully healthy, so McD wanted to save him for thursday. However, he kept Orton as his number 2 because he doesn’t want to throw brandstater out there, at this point.

If we see brandstater, consider it a desperation move.

I do think that maybe McD should have pulled Orton when the game was lost, but he didn’t. McD made a decision to put Simms on the bench and he stuck by it. Simms was atrocious and everyone knew it. Clearly, McD think that he only has one QB that can run this offense right now and he is going to play him whenever possible.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

by kentuckybronco on Nov 23, 2009 6:11 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

I agree 100%

about pulling KO when the outcome was obvious. I can buy starting Simms. I can buy putting Orton in at 13-0. I just don’t understand McD’s decision to leave him in so long, with a lopsided score and a game on Thursday.

by rocko1 on Nov 23, 2009 9:01 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

And the defense was getting ripped

As I said above, there was no way the game plan based on Simms was going to catch up.

by ClarkFan on Nov 23, 2009 8:25 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Down 13-0

with the Simms gameplan. You’re right you can’t come back. So you change the gameplan. Go to more shotgun and spread. Orton 75% should be able to do that. I can see the thought process and I understand why it was done. But I was of the opinion before the game that this was a must win and Orton, if healthy enough, should start. If he was healthy enough to come in when we needed to change the gameplan, he should have been healthy enough to start. But in the end I can see why it went the way it went and I understand what McD was trying to do.

by T.Dot_Bronco on Nov 23, 2009 8:57 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The difference is the formations they were going with

The game plan called for Simms to play predominantly from under center. When you’ve two TDs down, you can’t do that. By moving to the shotgun formation, they also gave Orton a little more time and it made sense to try and see if he could play. It was still a gamble, but it was the only chance that we had. Life’s tough when you have to make hard decisions. At least Orton wasn’t badly hurt – he and Brandstater are the only QBs that we really have as options, after this one

I’m fascinated, today, by the number of posters who ‘knew’ that Simms wouldn’t play well. He practiced well, he’s played well (and badly) in the past, and suddenly people have an effective crystal ball stashed in the closet? Umm…how about the winning lottery number, while you’re in there? ;-)

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Emmett Smith on Nov 23, 2009 11:05 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

Simms is taking a heck of a lot of heat for this one...

Considering that he was 2-4 with 2 sacks.

Series 1 – 7 runs for 47 yards. His first pass play was a “look out” block on the Blind Side DE that results in a fumble 9 times out of 10 for any QB.

Series 2 – His next 2 attempts were complete, but surrounded by Illegal motion and offsides penalties by Graham and Weigman. How the Hell does a CENTER false start. Then he was hung out to dry again with a sack and nobody open in coverage.

Series 3 – 1 more negative yardage run and a couple of incompletes and that was his ballgame.

Was Simms great yesterday? No. Was Simms Awful yesterday? No. He barely played long enough to break a sweat.

I wouldn’t try to argue at this point that Simms is better than Orton, but Simms didn’t get a real shot yesterday. McDaniels panicked and did exactly what he has been telling people not to do, correctly by the way, which is to blame the quarterback.

If Orton was good enough to go, he should have gone. If not, Simms needed to be declared the starter and not looking over his shoulder for the hook. And what exactly did we get out of all of this? 3 points, more damage to an already bad ankle and a $2 million dollar a year backup QB with a confidence problem.

Earlier in the year, I admired McD’s ability to make a decision and stick with it. What we saw yesterday was a team and a coach without any confidence that it could win the game straight up that resorted to trickery and panic. An onsides kick and a missed 4th&5 conversion in the 3rd Q when you are only down by 10? Really?

McD needs to find his mojo and fast.

by miner00 on Nov 23, 2009 11:45 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

miner followed my point exactly

which is if you’re going to start the backup because your starting quarterback is too injured then you should stick with the backup. It was a panic move. If your starting quarterback is well enough to play for a majority of the game, hes well enough to play the full game. I’m not buying the explanation that this was simply “reading the tea leaves”. Have you ever seen someone pulled with only three series?

Plus, this game was too big to risk with just a backup if you were going to give him the hook that quickly. That was a mistake by McD to start Simms in the first place if you were going to pull him that fast.

by jpage78 on Nov 23, 2009 12:42 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

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