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The Dude Abides...The Stats That Don't Lie, Week 12

The Stats don't mean what they say on Thanksgiving, Mom. You know that. That's what the day's supposed to be all about, right? Torture.--Holly Hunter 

Thanksgiving and football.  It didn't get much better in Week 12.  Like you and your family, some teams greedily feasted on the mashed potatoes (Dallas on Oakland), some teams kicked up their feet and loosened their belts (Green Bay feeling fat and bloated as they coasted over Detroit), and some teams simply went straight for the pumpkin pie (New Orleans tasting a sweet victory over New England).

Your Denver Broncos stuffed the New York Giants like turkeys.

Welcome to the Week 12 edition of The Stats that Don't Lie.  These stats are your extra gravy.  They are the statistical whipped cream that you squirt into your mouth right from the can.  They are the stats that you think about as you ignore your in-laws and fall asleep on the couch.  As always, they are Turnovers (giveaways to be truthful), Field Position, Time Of Possession, and 3rd-Down Efficiency. 

Before we jump in, you might have noticed that you are getting this edition on Tuesday rather than the normal Wednesday. That's because Ted Bartlett was feeling a little under the weather, so we decided to switch days.  Ted should be well enough to bring you his Shallow Thoughts and Nearsighted Observations tomorrow. 

Until then, you're getting stats.  And you're going to like it.  Don't make me send you to eat at the kids' table.

Star-divide

The View From the Airplane

The Turnover-Margin-Bar Graph rarely lies.  I enjoy putting this up each week because if you take nothing else away from these columns (and that's quite likely), simply take this picture and burn it into your brain:

4149781344_7bc669b14b_medium

As always, I point out that I "normalized" the New England game to take away the Hail Mary interception.  

Quick, go grab the dork in your office or dorm or cell (for fans of the Raiders) that knows nothing about football and show them this graph.  Tell them that a positive margin is a good thing.  Then ask them how many of these games they think the Broncos might have won.  They will certainly guess six, at a minimum.  And they'll wonder if New England was a tie. If there's one thing we've learned about this year's Denver Broncos, it's that they are going to live and die by turnover margin.  While this is true of most teams,  Denver seems to be particularly suited to the influence of turnovers (more on this later).  In the case of the Giants game, if a team has a plus-2 turnover margin, they win 78% of the time.  It's little wonder Denver took Eli and Company to the woodshed.  

Here is where the Broncos stack up against the rest of the league with respect to turnovers (giveways, but I hate this word more than the word "Cutler"), field position, time of possession, and 3rd-down efficiency:

4149803706_6337402983_medium

Denver has improved in most areas from last week, in which they were 10th in turnovers (giveaways), 27th in field position, 22nd in time of possession, and 21st in 3rd-down efficiency.  

As the greatest poet of his generation (or at least his after party) Bret Michaels, once said, "Every rose has its thorn." 3rd-down efficiency is the thorn for Denver.  This is precisely one of the reasons the Broncos are a team that, unlike Indianapolis, can't overcome turnovers.  Notice that Indianapolis leads the league in 3rd-down efficiency.  It's this high percentage that allows them to overcome turnovers in the first half like they did against both New England and last week against Houston.  If the Broncos can't improve this percentage on 3rd downs, a minus-1 turnover margin could doom them (and I don't mean Dumervil).   

This brings me to the New Orleans Saints.  Look at their rankings.  They are 16th in turnovers, 3rd in field position, 9th in time of possession, and third in 3rd-down efficiency.  How are they 11-0 with such a high turnover (giveaway) number/game?  

It's because that are a clone of the Indianapolis Colts, only with better field position.  In the case of both Indianapolis and New Orleans, time of possession really is incidental to their yards/play average.  They are both quick-strike offenses (look for my Quick-Strike Index coming soon in another piece).   Their drives are generally quicker, take less plays, and are deadlier to the other team. So the fact that they commit a turnover (or two) early in the game is not as big a deal as it would be for another team (hello, Denver!).  

Turnovers, as we have noted, are not all created equal.  A turnover committed early in the game is less valuable to the opponent than a turnover late (less time in the game means less options, obviously).  So as long as Peyton Manning and Drew Brees aren't throwing picks in the 3rd and 4th quarters (which they are not), their teams' ability to get down the field quickly can easily overcome these early turnovers.

Some of you might be quick to note that last week I said I believed Minnesota was a better team than New Orleans. I still feel this way.  Minnesota won't be at all intimidated by playing in a dome, and I really am inspired by Jared Allen's mullet. As far as the AFC goes, it's time that I accept the fate that is the Indianapolis Colts.  

This weekly piece wouldn't be complete without again pointing out the Bears' ranking of field position. This week they rank 1st.  Imagine what damage they could be doing if Jay Cutler's arm wasn't such a wishbone.


Week-12 Summaries:

4150026462_c1d63f1a33_medium

There were several games worth mentioning, but let's start with Denver's.  We've already noted the turnover margin, but it's also important to talk about field position.  Remember, field position is fluid, so as the ball is advanced up the field, the expected points value changes.  Denver essentially kept the Giants on their side of the field for most of the game.  The Giants only entered Denver territory three times in the entire game and one was on the last drive when the game was essentially over.  Mitch Berger and Matt Prater both had their best games of the season.  All of this kept the Giants on their side of the field where the expected point values were much much lower (for those that are looking for an in-depth analysis of the fluidity and point expectation of field position, it's coming).  This certainly contributed to Denver's victory.

Another game was Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore, but only because the stats lied again.  Pittsburgh won all four categories, but Baltimore escaped with the victory in overtime.  This is again a lesson in the context of turnovers. The later a turnover happens in a game, the more valuable (or damaging) it is.  Again, a turnover in the first quarter can be overcome, especially with a quick-strike offense.  However, in this case, the interception that Pittsburgh threw as they were entering Baltimore territory was in overtime (as late as you can get), and thus, the key to this game.   Just how much was that turnover worth?  Stats guys will tell you a turnover, no matter where it's committed, is worth 4 points.  Given Pittsburgh's season at this point, one could argue from the heart that it was worth a lot more.

The final game of note was the Monday night affair between New Orleans and New England.  First, New Orleans coach Sean Payton thinks so much of the 3rd-down efficiency stat that he decided to shove the stat for this in Suzy Kolber's face at halftime.   As a stats guy, I think it's cute.  Beats Joe Namath.  Second, on the Patroit's second drive, they were seizing momentum until Brady threw the interception.  From that point forward, things seemed to snowball on New England.  The impact of turnovers on momentum can't be overstated.  Third, on New Orleans' touchdowns, they had drives of 59, 75, 76, 74, and 75 yards.  They averaged only 5 plays/per drive on these drives, and finally, their average yards/play was 14.36.  In other words, the Saints can get the ball down the field in a BIG hurry.  Talk about a quick-strike offense.  

 

2-Turnover Rule  (Explained Here)

  • 5 teams had 0 turnovers.  3 won (60%); For the season, 56/70 (80%)

  • 12 teams had 1 turnover.  9 won (75%); For the season, 57/99 (58%)

  • 6 teams had 2 turnovers.   3 won (50%); For the season, 43/94 (46%)

  • 5 teams had 3 turnovers.  1 won (20%); For the season, 13/50 (26%)

  • 3 team had 4 turnovers.  None won (0%); For the season, 4/24 (17%)

  • 1 teams had 5+ turnovers.  None won (0%); For the season, 0/9 (0%)

Week 12 - Big Picture
  • The team that won the turnover battle won 14 of 16 games played (88%).  

  • In the previous category, remove the ties (2 games) and this changes to 75%

  • The team that won the time of possession battle won 11 of the 16 games played (69%).  

  • The team that had better third-down efficiency won 10 of the 16 games played (63%).

  • The team that had better average starting field position won 11 of the 16 games played (69%)

  • There were 7 games this week in which a team won all four categories.  In 7 of the 8, the same team won on the scoreboard (100%).  For the season, this stat is 59 out of 64 games.  In only 3 games, however, has a team won outright in all four categories (no ties in the turnover battle) and lost.

  • The winning teams this week averaged 1.13 turnovers, 32:07  in time of possession, 40.09% on 3rd downs, and their average starting field position was the 29.55 yard line.  

Top 5 in Week 12:
  • Top 5 in giveaways: Dallas, Cleveland, Cincinnati, San Francisco, and Arizona are all tied with 0

  • Top 5 in time of possession: 1.Minnesota  2.Cincinnati  3.Pittsburgh  4.Denver    5. San Diego

  • Top 5 in 3rd downs: 1.Minnesota   2.Green Bay  3.San Francisco  4.Houston  5.Washington/Cincinnati   

  • Top 5 in avg. starting field position: 1.Washington  2.Chicago  3.Cincinnati   4.Seattle   5.San Diego

Running Totals, Season (through 12 weeks):
  • 176 games have been played this season

  • 80.68% were won by the team with less turnovers (counting ties as wins)

  • 67.61% with a better time of possession

  • 65.91% by the team who won on 3rd down

  • 71.02% by the team that won the field-position battle.

12-week League Averages:
  • 12-week running average/game, turnovers (all teams): 1.69

  • 12-week running average/game, time of possession (all teams): 30:11 (thanks to numerous OT games)

  • 12-week running average/game, 3rd down efficiency (all teams): 37.81%

  • 12-week running average, starting field position (all teams) 29.68 yard line

  •  

    The Look Ahead

     

    Looking ahead to Kansas City, here is how the two teams stack up in the four statistical categories (keeping in mind these are averages/game):

    Team                    Turnovers/Game          Time of Possession          Field Position          3rd-Down Efficiency

    Denver                  1.36                                   29:31                                     28.12                         35.51%

    Kansas City         1.36                                   29:10                                     30.11                         22.21%

    I'm downright giddy to watch Denver's defense destroy Kansas City on 3rd downs.  Despite the fact that Kansas City generally doesn't turn the ball over, they also can't sustain drives.  And unlike the Colts or Saints, they don't have the quick-strike ability to avoid 3rd downs.  If Denver's 3rd-down defense holds true, they should be in excellent shape. As always, Denver must avoid turnovers.

    What about playing in December in Kansas City?  Is it the early gamet ime?  The humidity?  The crazy fans?   I don't know.  But Brian Dawkins is immune to it.   And Josh McDaniels hasn't heard about it.  And most important, the fans are probably still napping off their Thanksgiving, wishing Marty Schottenheimer had never left.  Lucky for Bronco fans, he did.  Playing against his teams was always tough.

    Hail, Kyle Orton!!

    Last stat: 100% (percentage chance that Ryan Clady is a better draft pick than Branden Albert).

    13 recs  |  Comment 96 comments |

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    Great work, AGAIN, TJ...Thanks so much for all the time and effort!

    Here’s to the Broncos coming out on top (stats and score) this week…Go Broncos!

    by BroncoSense72 on Dec 1, 2009 9:42 AM MST reply actions  

    thanks, BS72...the 8-Ball says....affirmative

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:33 AM MST up reply actions  

    Awesome job, Dude!!!

    I like that the broncos have finally turned around the stats. Since the stats don’t lie, it’s awesome that we are finally turning things in the right direction, stats-wise.

    If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

    by kentuckybronco on Dec 1, 2009 9:45 AM MST reply actions  

    KB, anytime, my man

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:33 AM MST up reply actions  

    Thanks Dude.

    I have to admit, it’s much more fun to read The Stats That Don’t Lie when those stats are moving in the Bronco’s favor. Here’s to the same thing next week!

    by NedBronco on Dec 1, 2009 9:53 AM MST reply actions  

    Ned, I will keep trying to make them understandable if not easy...thanks, man

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:32 AM MST up reply actions  

    Colts fan here, but I've followed your posts because you always have some excellent stats.

    One stat I’m curious about is points from turnovers. They flashed something in the Baltimore game about how Indy had allowed the fewest points off turnovers. I believe we’ve yet to allow a TD after a turnover. That’s nice and all, but I was just wondering what the stats were on other teams on that? Just for comparison’s sake.

    I believe the Saints are better than the Vikings. The Vikings have played one of the weakest schedules (FO), so I won’t buy them until they play some better teams. Saints are above all. Colts have a few things to work out if they want to have this year’s regular season success to turn into playoffs success.

    Good luck to the Broncos (except when they play the Colts obviously.)

    by diagenesis on Dec 1, 2009 10:07 AM MST reply actions  

    diagenesis, first, thanks for reading...I am glad other folks come this way to see this stuff..

    I’ll keep bringing ’em to you. Go here ,you can see this is sorted by scoring defense or total defensive touchdowns. This will at least give you an idea of how good your scoring defense is:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Defense&cat=Total&conference=NFL&year=season_2009&sort=103&timeframe=

    Looks like you’ve scored 2 Defensive Touchdowns this year.

    Regarding the direct question, if you would like, I can simply go through the drive charts and quickly give you that stat. There is two other places I will try for a quick answer, however.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:29 AM MST up reply actions  

    Thanks for filling my STNO void today, Dude!

    So, what have we learned? Never trust the stats when you are talking about the wretched Raiders or the wonderous Peyton Manning, and never never ever throw an interception in overtime.

    Gosh it feels good to be on the kind side of the stats this week. I’m looking forward to the Stats telling the Can’t-Win-In-Arrowhead-In-December myth to shove it. :-)

    "Take what you can. Give nothing back!"

    by Colorado_Kitten on Dec 1, 2009 10:28 AM MST reply actions  

    CK, I know you were Jonesing for it....Ted is coming back with full frontal force (say that 3 times fast)

    I am really worried about that December in KC stat. There has to be a reason!!! I think the early time slot and the bone-chilling humidity in KC has something to do with it. But I don’t have the data on this…yet!

    Or it’s just the drunk Chief fans on BBQ sauce!

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:38 AM MST up reply actions  

    The Knowshon in Shining Armor

    If there is one thing that frustrates me about this offense, it the utter lack of confidence I have in its ability overcoming negative plays. If they suddenly find themselves in 1st and 20, 2nd and 15, 3rd and 10+, my optimism meter bottoms out for that particular series. Every once in awhile they surprise with a conversion, but most often not. Obviously, stupid penalties and sacks have been killers. Yet as KM has settled down and stopped outrunning his eyes and feet, my overall confidence in this offense improving as the season progresses has sky-rocketed. KM’s hard nosed style and vision results in very few negative plays. I’m thinking as long as they stop getting stupid false starts, Illegal man down fields, and Daniel Graham starts refraining from piss-n-vinegar body slams of his opponent, KM’s real value to this offense will emerge— which is keeping his team in manageable down and distances. I bet that 3rd down conversion rate steadily increases as the stretch run unfolds. That comes with a big old knocking-on-wood caveat that Josh MfD made his point on national TV the other night.

    Thanks T.J. I hate to admit it, but I’m intellectually lazy when it comes to numbers…but you’re making a convert out of me. Its a whole new way to understand the game.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 10:28 AM MST reply actions  

    PO, I'm going to be looking more at this, but your point is on the money

    Denver is a team that really is hurt by TOs and penalties compared to other teams like Indy, NO, and SD. Their drives tend to be longer, so these mistakes are more costly to them.

    I am generalizing now, so I better make sure I get the stats to back this up. This article is coming soon, mate.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:36 AM MST up reply actions  

    They're opening up the Playbook

    Drive length and the amount of change on the offense go far in explaining the trouble overcoming a negative play. But am I the only one who feels like McD is starting to let Orton loose on deeper throws? In his last 6 healthy quarters, we’ve seen a lot of downfield shots: The four bombs (two converted) against Washington, and some deeper throws vs. the Giants, especially on marshall’s two one-handers. I expect the calculus on and-long situations to change for the remainder of the year.

    by Chibronx on Dec 1, 2009 2:01 PM MST up reply actions  

    IMO, part of that is the emergence of KM

    His rushing stat line the last three games is 47-265-5.6. If you maintain the theory that this is a take-what-they-give high percentage offensive philosophy, and assume (you have to unless you have access to the coaches film) that that 5.6 ypc encourages teams to move the S’s closer to the line, then going over-the-top or to the deep middle is a higher percentage play. Unfortunately, as you’ve pointed out many times, the lack of a true deep threat makes it almost impossible for this offense to be dynamic in all situations. If its 3rd and 10+, defenses have the liberty to take their chances that KM, bubble screens, slants, etc can be shut down with good tackling. So they play their safeties deeper, and thus focus on taking away the deeper routes while being in a position to jump the mid-routes. Its a hard nut to crack.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 2:31 PM MST up reply actions  

    Great Point

    With the exception of the Steelers game, they’ve been running very well since the bye. They established the run vs. the Ravens, but had to abandon it. They looked great against Washington, and in retrospect, they should have gone Navy-style — no passes — against the Chargers.

    It’s hard for me to figure out what this offense needs most, talent-wise. If they’re going to continue calling power running plays, they need to start collecting huge interior linemen. But if McDaniels is happy with the modified style of the last month — lots more zone blocking — it’s time to focus on that field-stretching receiver.

    Beyond the issue of the increasingly effective run, I wonder if the gradual phasing in of the long ball isn’t also part of McDaniels’ teaching philosophy. It seems like the offense started out almost comically conservative — we weren’t even seeing many runs off tackle — and has gradually been filling out.

    by Chibronx on Dec 1, 2009 3:07 PM MST up reply actions  

    My preliminary dream draft would go something like...

    If none of the premier D talent (Dunlap, Berry, Mays, McClain, Hayden) is on the board by time they pick), trade back 10-15 slots, pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd, and draft the Iupati kid out of Idaho (G) in the first round, and then use a 2nd or 3rd rounder on somebody like Jacoby Ford or some similar speed guy. Both those guys (or similar guys) pan out, and Denver’s offense goes from methodical to dynamic.

    What I like about Iupati is that it sounds like he offers the flexibility to go with both a zone-scheme or gap-blocking scheme on a week to week basis. He’s big and strong, yet nimble and athletic.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 3:59 PM MST up reply actions  

    I look forward to domination as well...

    1-16 all-time in KC in December….Marty was a young boy when that stat began. lmao

    I still don’t think Kc has a chance. :P

    Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

    The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

    by Tim Lynch on Dec 1, 2009 11:01 AM MST reply actions  

    Zappa

    Someone should really look at this trend and put some flesh behind it.

    Humidity? BBQ sauce? What?

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:35 AM MST up reply actions  

    Maybe those shifty KC folks put something in their sauce

    Perhaps we should encourage McD to put a moratorium on Oakie Joe visits until after the game is played.

    "Take what you can. Give nothing back!"

    by Colorado_Kitten on Dec 1, 2009 12:45 PM MST up reply actions  

    I think it's as simple as it's just a really tough place to play

    Just ask the Steelers.

    That sea of red gets very loud, throw in the cold weather, the fact that it’s a division game which KC gets fired up for year after year, as well as the fact that KC has been a good home team historically and you get that rediculous record.

    It’s about to be 2-16 come Sunday though! Go Broncos!

    We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793

    by c_style on Dec 1, 2009 4:49 PM MST up reply actions  

    C_Style, that's as good a reason as I've ever heard. It is an interesting stat, to be sure.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 4:50 PM MST up reply actions  

    You know...

    …I was there when KC beat Denver on the Dante Hall return, and I can only conclude its about 1 part venue, 4 parts rivalry and 5 parts psychological. It was only slightly louder than Texas Stadium and not even in the same ball park as Mile High or Invesco on a good night. Maybe my expectations were inflated, but I never sensed crowd noise or menace as being a problem. In fact, they (the fans) were very flighty that game. They were as easy to silence as they were to get wound up.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 5:27 PM MST up reply actions  

    PO, you got any theories? I really am interested in some reasons.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 7:43 PM MST up reply actions  

    I think KC views it as a bigger rivalry than Denver

    While the Chiefs have had some solid teams, the best they’ve achieved in the modern era is to ride shotgun with the Broncos. They’ve endured ‘the comeback’, Okoye getting humbled on MNF, and, of course, the obviously crushing playoff loss in ‘97. I won’t patronize them to the point to say that Denver is their Super Bowl, but I think lately beating the Broncos means more to them than vise-versa. They play harder and with more emotion, especially at home. This has been exacerbated by Shannahan’s treat men like men philosophy. Its noble and all, but sometimes the coach needs to light a fire, and I’m not sure KC (and other lesser opponents, for that matter) ever had his proper respect. He just expected his guys and his scheme to show up and whoop ’em.

    There have been years, of course, where KC was simply the better team. There was also the ridiculous knuckle-ball FG and the abomination personal foul on Lynch that handed them a game. Long story short, though, I think the Broncos have a tendency to overlook them…and really hope that McD won’t let that happen again.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 8:03 PM MST up reply actions  

    PO buddy

    One small thing, and no offense meant- it’s Shanahan, not Shannahan.

    by AllBroncsallday on Dec 3, 2009 12:06 PM MST up reply actions  

    Thanks TJ

    Good stuff. Great to see we brought that turnover graph back the right way! Let us strip sack and INT our way to a victory in KC!

    Why is it you hate ‘giveaways’ so much? Just a word that doesn’t strike you right?

    by poorboywilly on Dec 1, 2009 11:01 AM MST reply actions  

    Jason, ha, I think it's just the connotative that you are doing something bad with that category, when in fact

    the lower number is the better…but, still, I do hate the word, “Cutler!”

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:34 AM MST up reply actions  

    Schadenfreud

    Cutler brings it out in all of us!

    If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Trogdoor on Dec 1, 2009 2:18 PM MST up reply actions  

    The finger Plummer gave the fans

    was pretty mild compared to Cutler’s disdain for the fans, the coach, the organization and the owner. Any schadenfreude coming his way is certainly earned.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 2:44 PM MST up reply actions  

    Thanks Dude,

    your stats keep on rocking….

    "A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
    "Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

    by bchiper on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 AM MST reply actions  

    respect, bchiper

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 11:34 AM MST up reply actions  

    Shine on...

    You should try a little of that Stoli Vanilla with your kahula. Tasty. So the ladies say when I make it for them in the off-hours. Delicious again.

    Make sure you never get a wardrobe upgrade.

    All Ready!

    by precisiontint on Dec 1, 2009 11:35 AM MST reply actions  

    "We all shine on..."

    Love it, man. Thanks for that reference!

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 5:26 PM MST up reply actions  

    Dig it LB

    "Precipitation, which side are you on?
    Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
    Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
    Got some if you need it!" -EV

    by sadaraine on Dec 1, 2009 12:13 PM MST reply actions  

    Sadaraine, I'll take it!

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 5:25 PM MST up reply actions  

    Oh boy, here we go again

    Sure, the team winning the turnovers wins the game but you don’t need stats to determine that. That is just a matter of logic. Anyone would draw that conclusion even without access to any game outcomes. A drive with a turnover is a drive that NEVER ends in a score. A generated turnover is the equivalent of having a single drive with two scoring opportunities. Now, if you compare teams that have drives that NEVER score with teams which have double scoring opportunities, you don’t need to look at the results of those games to forecast the likely trend. You might as well explore the statistical difference between the teams that have the most drives that end without a score, period. I have not looked at the numbers. I don’t need to. I can unequivocally assert that a team wins 100% and easily upwards of 90% of the time when they have the least scoreless possessions within a game and within a season respectively –in my respectful opinion.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 12:20 PM MST reply actions  

    True, but the dude is quantifying how much a turnover really hurts a team.

    Sure, it is one thing to know that it hurts a team to have a turnover, but it’s another to know exactly what kind of damage it does to your chances of winning a game.

    If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

    by kentuckybronco on Dec 1, 2009 12:29 PM MST up reply actions  

    right

    The only way teams overcome turnover deficits is by winning the other 3 catagories. usually, and that’s 90% true, which is about the average for stats that are made up on the spot!

    If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Trogdoor on Dec 1, 2009 2:20 PM MST up reply actions  

    I'm glad you said "usually" you can overcome turnover deficits by winning the other categories.

    Let’s go back to week eleven, steelers versus chiefs.

    Steelers had 44 minutes TOP, 515 total yards and 3 turnovers. Lost the game.

    Sure, the special teams didn’t help, either, with the opening kickoff returned for a TD.

    Regardless, having a turnover severely decreases your chances of winning the game. The Dude has been bringing us the stats that don’t lie for quite a while now, and the formula is right quite a bit of the time, except for Peyton Manning and the Raiders, as was mentioned earlier. They are so good/bad that they defy stats.

    If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.

    by kentuckybronco on Dec 1, 2009 2:33 PM MST up reply actions  

    Agree, but misses the point

    Your comment that knowing turnover margin is a great predictor of who won simply reinforces TJ’s point… that turnover margin is a very good DESCRIPTIVE stat.

    Same applies for things like field position, time of possession, etc. They are very good at explaining what happened IN THE PAST.

    Where I have some quibbles is how PREDICTIVE some of these stats are. There has been little to no modeling or analysis done here on how good the “rankings” in these stats are at predicting who will win future games, compared to more traditional things like home-field advantage, W-L record, etc.

    My gut sense is TO-margin is pretty good (teams tend to be relatively consistent in propensity for turnovers), but things like 3rd-down efficiency, etc. are really no better than what you’d guess otherwise from W-L record or home-field, etc.

    Thats where advanced stats folks, like the ones at FootballOutsiders, etc. really blow away most traditional stats analyses, because they’ve actually analyzed the predictive capacity of some of these things.

    by cjfarls on Dec 1, 2009 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

    All good points

    One comment about third down efficiency: Bad teams don’t convert 3rd downs. Good teams don’t face 3rd downs. A team with (a large enough number to analyze of) 3rd down conversions, it follows, is a mediocre team. Looking at percentage of successful 3rd down conversions then, is a matter of determining whether it is a good or a bad mediocre team, which really is secondary to the initial findings, already established, of needing the conversions in the first place.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 3:07 PM MST up reply actions  

    good point +1

    The number of 3rd downs in relation to the stats is relevant. But when a team holds the ball for 35-40 minutes TOP, they will likely have a few more 3rd downs. Even the Saints had some 3rd downs last night, I’m pretty sure ;-)

    If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Trogdoor on Dec 1, 2009 4:09 PM MST up reply actions  

    I agree Trogdoor

    The number of 3rd downs is indeed relevant. More informative than the total number of third downs, however, and of the percentage of third downs converted would be stats relating third downs and third downs converted as a percentage of total plays.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 4:19 PM MST up reply actions  

    not to mention

    Oh, I just did mention, that 4th down conversions are even more relevant. And good teams are more likely to attempt to convert them.

    If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Trogdoor on Dec 1, 2009 4:11 PM MST up reply actions  

    Except

    Fourth down attempts are so rare that you could not derive useful statistical information.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 4:22 PM MST up reply actions  

    Cjfaris, thanks for you input

    I think lately the theorem that the FO have been using for predicted wins have been taking a hit, specifically with the Colts and the Giants. This just goes to show you that it’s almost impossible to use historical data to have an iron grip on the future. Believe me, they’ve been trying to find that one with respect to stocks for years using multi-variable regression.

    Speaking of MVR, though, I have 10 years of data with the help of my friend Doug Lee. The only part I want to add is the field position data, which I play to do when I get a breather after week 17. I am going to play around with the prediction equates and see which variables are the best fit for season wins. Not sure if it will be useful, but I suspect it’s going to be.

    As always, I plan to share. The best thing FO ever did was bring into the main stream situation stats vs. cumulative or ratio stats. I also absolutely love their piece on running backs with 370 carries and QBs taken in the 1st two rounds.

    Regarding Home field, it’s only about 55%. So points differential, turnover margin, qB rating, and a few others will crush that home field number in the long run with respect to correlation.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 5:23 PM MST up reply actions  

    Colts and Giants

    Do you mean this year, or the Super Bowl wins?

    If you mean this year, I don’t remember their predictions for the 2, so you may be right…. but if I recall, at the very least they thought the Colts would be good (if not great) this year, and for the number of losses the G-men have, I still don’t think they’re a horrible team…. just an inconsistent one which relied on a injury-free, strong O-line that now seems to have gotten old lost a step and is now vulnerable to speed rushes and gap-blitzes.

    If you mean their “misses” regarding the the Superbowl runs/wins, FO has always says their advanced stats explain about 40% of the variability, while 60% is still unexplainable and/or “luck”… FO predicts win probablilities, not win guaruntees…. just because a team with a really bad run DEF like the Colts (in large part due to missing their uber-safety for much the season), or an extremely inconsistent team (the G-men before their superbowl season) get hot and win 3 games in a row does not mean the FO predicitons we “wrong”… it just means if you have a 60-40 pobability of being right, you shouldn’t be surprised when you are wrong 4 out of 10 times.

    by cjfarls on Dec 7, 2009 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

    Warmick, well, okay, then a couple of points:

    1) Intuitively we know that winning turnovers wins games. I think we agree on this. So I’m driving the point home statistically. I think the value of having these stats drive it home for us is probably a matter of personal preference.

    2) As I tried to indicated, the point in the game when the turnover is committed is huge. I would say a team like Indy or NO is certainly much more capable of overcoming a turnover early in the game than a team like Denver, to be honest. Ever since the days of Bob Carroll and his book, stats guys have been postulating that a turnover is a swing of about 4 points in value. Moreover, they have also—I think rightly so— said that a turnover is “worth” approximately 45 to 50 yards, and as such, it takes about 2 turnovers to “objectively” mean a touchdown’s differential. Of course, this is statistically speaking, of course. This was also born out when I looked at data from the last two years regarding outright turnovers in games (0, 1, 2, etc) and winning percentages. Hence the name “two turnover rule.” But my point in saying this is that one can overcome turnovers from these expected values if one has an offense like the Colts’ or the Saints (with higher yards/play)’, so the bar graph would look different for these teams than a team like Denver. I should actually put that up next week to demonstrate this more fully.

    3) Regarding the Turnover being equivalent to having a single drive with two scoring opportunities, I would say I think of it more as a expected point value, so if you are driving on your opponent’s 40-yard line, at that point, your point potential value is about 3. If you turn the ball over, that is an expected point swing of 4 points, since you just went from 3 to the other team having a +1 potential point value at the same yard line going the other way. Either way you slice it, turnover the ball over isn’t good, but it’s worse when the number of drives remaining in the game are less and less.

    4) The only time a team would ever have the chance to have an actual “extra” drive would be under the following scenarios:

    a) you have the ball at half and the half ends. Coming out for the 2nd half, you get the ball
    b) you kick off or return and the returner fumbles the ball (rare)
    c) the other guys scores on a kickoff or punt return (rare)

    So there is no such thing as ever having double scoring opportunities. So, for me, it’s about potential point value.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 5:16 PM MST up reply actions  

    All good points

    (to the extent I understand them) except for one thing: Since you NEVER score on a drive in which you have a turnover, that drive becomes the equivalent of not having had the ball at all. The other team then can be considered (in theory) to not having relinquished the possession for all practical purposes but they did have the opportunity to score both before and after your “non possession equivalent” turnover drive, hence the "double" scoring opportunity.

    As for your point 4 a), b) and c) I strongly disagree. There are no EXTRA possessions. Whenever you have the ball, that is a "drive" i.e. scoring opportunity, including when you return the kickoff for a score or fumble the ball. I have touched on this previous ("there are only two possibilities: Either each team has the same number of possessions, or one team has ONE more possession than the other"), so I am not going to repeat it here (but you can certainly look up the argument if you care).

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 5:46 PM MST up reply actions  

    warmick

    I think we actually agree on point 4 actually. if you define the kickoff as a opportunity, absolutely, it´s true. totally concur. then the halftime extra is the bonus

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 7:45 PM MST up reply actions  

    There is no half time extra

    If they didn’t have the same number of possessions at the end of the first half, they will as soon as the second half commences.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 10:23 PM MST up reply actions  

    warmick, check this drive chart out from this week's Lions/Packers game

    It appears as if Detroit gets the extra possession in the manner described at the end of the half and then at the beginning of the 2nd half. Am I missing something?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20091126008&page=drives

    It appears in fact, that Detroit actually has 3 extra drives from this chart also because of the safety.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 PM MST up reply actions  

    You ARE missing something

    If you look at the play by play you will see that Detroit kicked off at the start of the game. Green Bay returned the kick 20 yards and then fumbled. The drive log doesn’t consider GB’s return a “drive” so accordingly Detroit both kicked off and had the first drive. That’s why the drive log comes out skewed. The fact is though, that teams alternate having possession so consequently they end up with the same total or one team has but ONE more than the other. That’s it. There are no other possibilities.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 11:04 PM MST up reply actions  

    Right, I agree with you totally if we are defining a "drive" as an opportunity like this.

    which doesn’t show up as a drive stat in the NFL. So, from a “opportunity” perspective, one can indeed end up with an extra chance in the event of a 1st half/start of 2nd half with the ball event.

    I generally use NFL drive charts, but I did not want to link you to the entire gamebook and have you have to sift through to the end.

    This week I’m going to be looking at play by play in these game books for another piece I’m doing on Dumervil. Hope you take a look. Thanks, warmick.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 12:05 AM MST up reply actions  

    Another reason you can't just count the number of drives in the chart:

    Green Bay had the ball at the end of the first quarter. That drive, however, extended into the second quarter (by one play) but that possession is not reflected in the chart making it look like Green Bay only had 2 second quarter possessions even though they actually had the ball in their possession three different times in that quarter.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 11:21 PM MST up reply actions  

    Also

    At 3:47 before the end of the game Green Bay intercepted Stafford for a touchdown. That (short) possession is not reflected in the drive log.

    by warmick on Dec 1, 2009 11:39 PM MST up reply actions  

    strange that yahoo didn't reflect that

    I really failed there. I should have just brought up the NFL log and said, “warmick, check out page X,” there’s one extra drive… my bad…

    It’s a good lesson to leave the yahoo stats page alone, however.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 12:12 AM MST up reply actions  

    The graph at the top looks like the team is writing some sort of con*cer*to.

    Let’s just hope it all ends in high, high notes. The game Sunday is a very important one for us aas far as momentum is concerned. The Broncos have to take the crowd out of the equation right away, because that has to do with alot of the Chiefs drive to win. Plus, the noise level is deafening and very hard for the offense to make plays. If the crowd get’s into it we will have a few false starts.

    The weather for the game should be fairly cold with the early start. I have been in Kansas City this time of year and it can be frost bite weather. Our defense needs to pressure, pressure and pressure some more to make Cassel as uncomforable as possible. Kyle is immune to the fridgid weather (Chicago) so I don’t think it will effect him.

    Our main concern is turnovers and 3rd down conversions. We win that battle and we will be successful. Thanks TJ for the great information that keeps MHR a click or 2 above the other sites.

    by bfree2bronc on Dec 1, 2009 2:34 PM MST reply actions  

    Bfree, as always, thank you for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 5:24 PM MST up reply actions  

    If you Normalized it...then the STATS do LIE

    The T.O ratio should be lower in the first 5 games as well then. Lucky tipped balls etc. How about “normalizing” those stats as well, or do you always plan to be selective?

    I am disappointed in the fact you would imply that this is the truth of it, when to any Bronco fan we note the obvious issues. Our offense really has a difficult time putting together decent scoring drives against average healthy defensive teams. And our defense cant stop the short pass and has difficulty in the crossing routes and flats, ironic as it may seem thats pretty much the same offensive scheme we run.

    Don’t get me wrong here. It is nice to see we get pocket pressure, some end containment and finally some 2nd lvl run gap defense. But I am not sold on the hoop-lah and the slanted stats because they certainly to not show the lady luck factor or the ref assistance. I am looking forward to Denver showing up and winning a game legitimately for one. Then I can believe that the trades and everything else was worth it, until then this Jury is out and remains observant, skeptical and critical of fact vs fiction.

    COME ON BRONCOS

    by Good Templar on Dec 1, 2009 4:03 PM MST reply actions  

    GT, Thanks for reading, first. I think you should remain skeptical, and I think I say as much, regarding 3rd downs

    A few other points to consider:

    1) Certainly normalization is a subjective process. I simply chose to normal the one turnover from the New England game in which it was completely clear to everyone in the room that it was a hail mary. If the other team had had a hail mary I would have done this two. But if I added it back it, it would still show the trend of turnover margin in the same manner. I don’t think the argument regarding turnover margin is any less valid with the turnover put back into the New England game.

    2) I essentially agree with your point about drives where I talk about how the Broncos can’t sustain quick strike drives that can overcome turnovers. So I think we are congruent on that point.

    3) I’m not sure if I implied objective truth regarding the turnovers being the only thing, but certainly they are pretty important. As I’ve went back and looked at the past two years of data, even having a +1 in the turnover margin gets you a win about 70% of the time. Now, how one goes about minimizing turnovers and getting them on defense is an X’s and O’s article, which I am happy to do, and have done some, but my purpose was not for this to be a personnel or X’s and O’s article. But if you wanted a diatribe on this subject, I’ll give you a reader’s digest version:

    Personnel
    1) Take Dumervil out on running plays. He gets attacked on run downs, although I hate to say this.
    2) Play a purer form of the 3-4 (instead of the 5-2 look they use now). We can run more delayed blitzes this way and it will be a wrinkle for the 2nd half of the season.
    3) Take Royal off of return and play him at the slot exclusively
    4) Utilize Josh Barrett on Nickel a LOT more

    That’s for starters.

    Well, I for one, hope you keep reading. And thanks for taking the time.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 4:49 PM MST up reply actions  

    thanks, man, appreciate.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 4:49 PM MST up reply actions  

    Right on Dude!

    Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

    by KaptainKirk on Dec 1, 2009 6:25 PM MST reply actions  

    thanks, Kap, keep raider hatin´

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 7:46 PM MST up reply actions  

    I hate stats TJ, I really do...

    Why do you torment me each week with what’s true? Must you make me read these things? When it comes to football, must I know the truth? Can’t I pretend that what is not happening may yet still happen? What is wrong with you TJ, have you no heart? Do you not respect us types that want to pretend our way through life? What is wrong with you TJ?

    Hmmmm….

    lol

    kidding of course…

    Another great post Stat Man!!

    Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
    Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
    Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

    by Mike Clark on Dec 1, 2009 8:23 PM MST reply actions  

    Thanks, MC, I rather prefer some Kool-Aid

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 9:18 PM MST up reply actions  

    lol

    Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
    Gonsoulin, Taylor, Little, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
    Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.

    by Mike Clark on Dec 1, 2009 9:31 PM MST up reply actions  

    Offensive conundrum ...

    It’s 3rd down and 15. The play called is a deep out. The pass will be required to travel OVER TWENTY FEET IN THE AIR !! Your QB is Kyle Orton. Do you …

    A) Call a draw play.

    B) Audible a screen play and hope for the best.

    C) Throw the ball 20 yards down field inaccurately and with no zip. ……

    by Irish Bears Fan on Dec 1, 2009 8:58 PM MST reply actions  

    IBF, well I suppose you are directing that towards me, since I am the author of this piece, but..

    Any of these three would suffice depending on the context of the score, quarter, field position, etc.

    So the context is invaluable—so much so, that´s virtually impossible to answer your question without the context.

    Assuming this drive in not your last drive/opportunity, the one thing you would’t do would be to throw a pick. That’s essentially a 4 point swing and amounts to what equates of 50 yards. Again, context is important.

    If you threw a pick, and let’s say, I don’t know, 19 more of them, I’m guessing your record would probably be about 4-7, and well on your way to getting a top 10 draft pick. But, on the other hand, if you threw, let’s say 6, probably you’d have a record of 7-4 and be in the playoff hunt.

    Moral to the story. Ints lose you a game. Taking a sack doesn’t. But I’m guessing that’s not what you’re here for.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 9:13 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

    From an Irish Broncos Fan

    A) for fifteen yards? No
    B) yes, but no hoping involved, this is a solid play in the Broncos playbook
    C) No Zip? Ha! Accuracy I still question but not zip, that man can throw, See the top five catches of the week on ESPN.com, B Marshall has the number one catch, twice.

    So, B is the answer and sorry for your luck, First Down! Yes!!

    Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
    From now on " This is my favorite website." (stolen from McGeorge)

    by Sean in Pa. on Dec 1, 2009 9:16 PM MST up reply actions  

    ok

    new poll.
    How many comma’s can you put in one sentence. I just put the bar pretty high. Sorry to all you scholars LOL

    Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
    From now on " This is my favorite website." (stolen from McGeorge)

    by Sean in Pa. on Dec 1, 2009 9:22 PM MST up reply actions  

    sean, the one below is meant for you...lol

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

    Yo IBF...

    …when my team is 4-7 (about once every quarter century), and I get to feeling like trollin’, I’ve found its calming to go to places like Draftek or Draft Countdown to get my spirits u….er, wait, that’s right— never mind. My bad.

    by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 1, 2009 9:49 PM MST up reply actions  

    Really?

    You’re taking the “Orton’s a noodle arm” approach? Wow. Guess you must be new here.

    The good folks here have long figured out that the “noodle arm” thing is a bunch of hooey, so you’re not gonna get very far here with that.

    Perhaps you should worry about your team’s QB. Then again, I’m sure you are, which is why you’re here trying to stir up trouble.

    by AllBroncsallday on Dec 3, 2009 12:15 PM MST up reply actions  

    Sean, I'd open up one of my Faulkner novels and tell you, but I would fall asleep:-)

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 1, 2009 9:33 PM MST reply actions  

    LOL

    tnx TJ

    Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
    From now on " This is my favorite website." (stolen from McGeorge)

    by Sean in Pa. on Dec 1, 2009 10:01 PM MST up reply actions  

    Hi. Sorry to ask a "kinda non football Q" but...

    Didn’t really want to waste a fan post to ask this, where is a good place to find Denver Broncos audio podcasts? Or does MHR do any? If anyone could help me with that, that would be great, thanks.

    by Psykomyko on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 PM MST reply actions  

    Yeah, you can find them right here:

    http://mhrradio.ning.com/

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 12:10 AM MST up reply actions  

    Thanks!

    Haven’t been to happy with any other analysts besides you guys, so this is a plus!

    by Psykomyko on Dec 2, 2009 1:38 AM MST reply actions  

    thanks, man!

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 10:46 PM MST up reply actions  

    Good stuff and thanks!

    I played in high school and we never got into this much detail abtou football. Awesome job.

    by withersbronco on Dec 2, 2009 6:49 AM MST reply actions  

    thanks for taking the time out of your day to read it

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 10:46 PM MST up reply actions  

    Uh, hey man, this is a private residence

    I like your explanation of the expected value point swing that a turnover causes being constant given field position. But, I’d like to point out something interesting about the number of turnovers a team commits in a game. I claim that the probability for a team to commit a turnover on any given play is proportional to that team’s perceived probability of losing the game. What I’m saying is, the further a team gets behind and the less likely it seems that they have a chance to come back, the more risks that team is willing to take with the football. The obvious example is the Hail Mary or the crazy multi-lateral play at the end of the game. If a team is down by 4-8 points, and only has time for one play at the end of a game, any moron can calculate that the cost of a turnover is 0, and therefore it is ok to try the riskiest of plays to try to score. Now, I’m claiming that teams (whether it is the right move or not) start to make riskier decisions once they perceive that they need to score a lot of points in a short period of time. This is most often seen at the quarterback position where the quarterback holds on to the ball longer than he should or tries to force in a pass that he normally wouldn’t. This can also show up in decision making; the decision to go for it on 4th down (risking a turnover on downs) instead of taking the field goal or punting the ball is often influenced by how far down the team is. You hear the commentators (ex football decision makers) discuss this routinely. Again, I’m not saying it’s the best (optimal) move, but I am saying that it is the common thinking of NFL decision makers.

    I think this fact needs to be considered when trying to make deductions from the correlation between turnovers and winning the game. I agree that there is a STRONG correlation between turnover differential and who wins the game, but I believe that my assertion indicates that at least part of that turnover differential is a natural condition of losing. Put another way, I believe that a proportion of the turnover differential are caused by the fact that a team lost NOT that the team lost because of the turnovers.

    So, for instance, if the Broncos are playing the Saints and the score is Saints 21 and Broncos 0 midway through the second quarter with 0 turnovers committed by either team, I would wager that by the end of the game, the Broncos are gonna have more turnovers by the end of the game than the Saints because the Broncos are gonna be playing with more desperation.

    I think this shows up in the statistics. For instance, I have the Saints Defense on my fantasy team. It is far and away the highest scoring defense at this point with the highest number of interceptions (22), the second highest number of fumble recoveries (10), and the highest number of touchdowns (7). One could argue that this is because they have the best defense or at least the most aggressive. I think a large part of their turnovers are coming from the fact that teams they face are routinely put into desperation mode because the NO offense scores so prolifically. I think Indianapolis Defense would have more turnovers except for the fact that they make a habit of getting down early in games.

    Ultimately, I think if you are pointing to the turnover differential and trying to use it as proof that a team like the Broncos with an underpowered offense can’t afford to commit turnovers, I agree with your assertion but not the proof. What I’m saying is that because turnover differential is at least partially caused by the condition of losing, your assertion is better proven by the expected value point differential cost of a turnover than by the correlation between turnover differential and winning.

    by jimmyHump on Dec 2, 2009 9:03 AM MST reply actions   3 recs

    Jimmy, great post, I'll read it a few times, my friend

    I would totally agree with this true. I absolutely agree that as the game moves to its conclusions, there are going to be less opportunities and less options available to a team that is behind in the score. Thus, they are going to pass the ball, which is clearly going to increase the risk of a turnover. Absolutely. Interestingly enough—and this might interest you—I am finding the same thing regarding sacks. That team that gets behind, well the other team knows it too, and they are pinning their ears back and, therefore, you see more sacks in these situations (obviously, more pass attempts by the other team = more sacks). Jimmy, I enjoyed this post and I am going to include some your thoughts next week. Very much enjoyed this.

    Again, I’ll read through it a few more times.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 11:04 AM MST up reply actions  

    Jimmy, regarding yoru last point

    each turnover is obviously contextual, so I wouldn’t want to maintain absolute truth regarding asserting the correlation…I hope I pointed this out sufficiently to make the point you are making regarding the condition of losing, which I simply consider “context of the game situation.”

    Again, good stuff.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 11:06 AM MST up reply actions  

    Computer on the Sidelines

    Thanks, TJ. I’m so happy I found this forum for statistical techniques for analyzing football. My fantasy football addiction is leading me down this dark, time-sucking hole :) It really makes me think that given the millions of dollars at stake and the extreme desire to win, NFL teams should invest in statistical tools to help them make real-time decisions in games. I haven’t done any research on how much that may or may not be in use by teams. Do you know if any team is currently using software to help them make “optimal” decisions during the game?

    As I was writing about teams taking more and more risks as they get further behind, I was even imagining that a coach may want to have a DEFCON type rating system to clearly communicate to the entire team how aggressive/risky they should be playing. Personally, I think teams switch into risky/desperate (DEFCON 1) mode too quickly. That includes switching to pass-only offenses. I’d love to be able to prove that it’s better to stick to a balanced/calm approach for much longer in the game than most teams are currently employing. I suspect that teams are getting behind early and then panicking and giving themselves even less of a chance to come back. I’m not so silly as to believe that you should never go to DEFCON 1, but that it should be done much later in the game than is typically done by teams today.

    by jimmyHump on Dec 2, 2009 2:32 PM MST up reply actions  

    Jimmy, appreciate. Enjoy the discussion.

    Next week, I’ll throw in some regression just for fun.

    Later this week, I’m doing another piece and will some stats in there for you.

    I don’t think there is anyone using stuff real time, but the head coach of the Lions has some statistical formulas that he wants to adhere to. He is actually a huge stat guy. Check this out:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Jim-Schwartz-brings-a-new-approach-to-a-challeng?urn=nfl,134719

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 10:17 PM MST up reply actions  

    Well played sir.

    I agree with your premise, but I just finished reviewing the KC vs. SD game for an upcoming post. The Chargers forced four Chiefs turnovers and scored a touchdown following each takeaway. Two of them were in the 1st half and literally decided the game. This is just one factual example. So I guess both points have merit and it is not an exact science. I rec’d your comment.

    Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

    by KaptainKirk on Dec 2, 2009 9:55 AM MST reply actions  

    I would say "un-forced" turnovers

    But you have a great point.

    "The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."

    by cpa913 on Dec 2, 2009 12:53 PM MST up reply actions  

    You might want to revisit the 3rd Down stats (maybe just include since the Bye Week)
    I’m downright giddy to watch Denver’s defense destroy Kansas City on 3rd downs. Despite the fact that Kansas City generally doesn’t turn the ball over, they also can’t sustain drives. And unlike the Colts or Saints, they don’t have the quick-strike ability to avoid 3rd downs.

    Those stats include all of the games where Larry Johnson would run into his own lineman for a two yard gain every time it has been 3rd and 3. KC converted 40% of 3rd downs against Pittsburgh and 27% against San Diego, still not great, but dramatically improved from earlier in the year.

    The difference is the emergence of Jamaal Charles, and Cassel has been getting much better (still not great) protection. With the pickup of Chambers, Long and Wade, not to mention Charles as a receiver) he has receivers to get the ball to now. Unless Dumerveil has an “A++++” game, I wouldn’t predict a complete domination of 3rd down.

    "The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."

    by cpa913 on Dec 2, 2009 12:50 PM MST reply actions  

    DOOM & 3rd down conversions for the Chiefs

    While I agree the Chiefs have improved their 3rd down conversions recently, I have to disagree with your last sentence.

    The Chiefs are currently second to last in sacks allowed this year with 38, trailing only the Packers in their protection ineptitude. DOOM meanwhile is leading the league in sacks with 14.

    Unless Branden Albert & Ryan O’Callaghan both have an A+++++++++ game, I would predict complete DOOMination on 3rd downs. Let the feast begin!!!!!!!!!

    We confide in our strength without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. -Thomas Jefferson 1793

    by c_style on Dec 2, 2009 4:42 PM MST up reply actions  

    I think that the Pit game weights heavily in your thinking.

    Week 9: 30.77%
    Week 10: 6.67%
    Week 11: 40.00%
    Week 12: 27.27%

    Given that the league average is around 37%, you managed to best the league average 1 time in the last 4 weeks. But I would agree with your general statement that you should trend better towards the end of the year, and will be better on 3rd down next year.

    "But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

    by TJ Johnson on Dec 2, 2009 10:13 PM MST up reply actions  

    Good points

    "The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."

    by cpa913 on Dec 4, 2009 9:34 AM MST up reply actions  

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