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3rd/4th & Short -- Is It As Bad As It Might Seem?

     In jpage78's post "It had to be said" a comment subthread was started that talked about why the Broncos keep running between the tackles on 3rd & 4th and short, since that type of play has proven to be markedly unsuccessful.  This started me wondering how often McDaniels has called a between the tackles run on 3rd or 4th and short.  So, I went to nfl.com, pulled up the Game Book for each of our 13 games and looked at the play-by-play to see how often the Broncos have found themselves in 3rd/4th and short and what play was called.  The results might surprise you.

More after the jump.

Star-divide

     For the sake of this discussion, I have defined "Short Yardage" as 1 or 2 yards to go.  Many teams, the Broncos included tend to pass as often as they run in 3 or 4 yard situations.  According the stats posted on the Broncos page at nfl.com, the Broncos have had 185 3rd and 4th down conversion attempts, and have converted 66 (or 36%) of the time.  Of those 185 attempts, 40 (or 22%) fall in the short yardage category as defined above.  Here are some interesting stats about those 40 attempts:

1)12 (30%) of the 40 attempts were passes.

2)22 (55%) of them were runs.

3)6 (15%) had penalties called on them.

4)Denver converted 21 (53%) of the 40 attempts.

5)6 of the 12 pass attempts (50%) were converted.

6)14 of the 22 run attempts (64%) were converted.

7)1 defensive penalty gave Denver a first down.

8)5 offensive penalties forced the Broncos into 3rd or 4th and long.

Of the 12 Pass Attempts:

1)8 went short right; 3 resulted in 1st downs.

2)1 went short over the middle, and not only was converted but resulted in a TD.

3)3 went short left; 2 resulted in 1st downs.

Of the 22 Run Attempts:

1)1 went around the right end and resulted in a first down.

2)4 went to the right tackle; 3 resulted in first downs and 1 of those resulted in a TD.

3)4 went to the right guard; 3 resulted in first downs.

4)6 went up the middle; 2 resulted in first downs.

5)3 went to the left guard; 2 resulted in first downs.

6)2 went to the left tackle; both resulted in first downs.

7)2 went around the left end; 1 resulted in a first down.

So, of the 22 runs attempted on 3rd or 4th and short, 19 were between the tackles, and 12 (or 63%) resulted in first downs.

For those who are interested, the data above was drawn from the following descriptions of the plays (you might want to read on if you're interested in who did what in short yardage situations).

@Cincinnati
1)2nd Qtr 3-2-Den28 (5:24) Shotgun Orton pass incomplete to Royal short right
2)3rd Qtr 3-2-Den44 (4:28) Orton pass incomplete to Hillis short right
3)3rd Qtr 4-2-Den44 (4:23) False start penalty

Cleveland
1)1st Qtr 3-2-Cle2 (8:07) Orton pass short left to Scheffler for 2 yards, touchdown
2)2nd Qtr 3-1-Den16 (2:05) Moreno right tackle for 1 yard
3)4th Qtr 3-2-Cle43 (4:06) Jordan left guard for 4 yards

@Oak
1)1st Qtr 3-1-Oak1 (6:02) Hillis up middle for no gain
2)1st Qtr 4-1-Oak1 (5:16) Jordan up the middle for no gain
3)1st Qtr 3-1-Oak14 (3:34) Moreno right guard for 9 yards
4)1st Qtr 3-2-Oak2 (2:11) Orton pass to Marshall for 2 yards, touchdown
5)2nd Qtr 3-1-Oak36 (4:22) Moreno right tackle for 1 yard
6)3rd Qtr 3-1-Den39 (2:22) Moreno right guard for 4 yards
7)4th Qtr 3-1-Oak4 (12:41) Moreno left end for -2 yards

Dallas
1)3rd Qtr 3-1-Den44 (3:18) Moreno left guard for 5 yards
2)3rd Qtr 3-1-Dal30 (0:42) Moreno right guard for no gain
3)3rd Qtr 4-1-Dal30 (0:03) Moreno left guard for no gain

New England
1)1st Qtr 3-2-Den28 (2:57) Orton pass to Marshall short middle for 1 yard
2)2nd Qtr 3-2-Den 18 (8:23) Orton pass to Royal short left for 10 yards
3)3rd Qtr 3-1-NE6 (8:08) Moreno left guard for no gain
4)OT 3-1-NE48 (12:10) Orton pass to Royal short right for 8 yards

@San Diego
1)2nd Qtr 3-2-SD25 (10:31) Shotgun Moreno left tackle for 6 yards
2)3rd Qtr 3-1-SD46 (13:03) Illegal shift penalty on offense
3)4th Qtr 3-1-SD47 (9:51) Moreno up the middle for 1 yard

@Baltimore
1)2nd Qtr 3-1-Bal49 (1:26) Buckhalter right end for 5 yards
2)3rd Qtr 3-1-Bal6 (10:51) Orton incomplete pass short middle to Graham
3)3rd Qtr 4-1-Bal6 (10:44) Defensive Offside Penalty

Pittsburgh
1)2nd Qtr 3-2-Den31 (13:40) Orton pass short right to Royal for 11 yards
2)2nd Qtr 3-1-Den25 (2:00) Orton pass short middle to Marshall for 18 yards

@Washington
1)2nd Qtr 3-1-Was12 (0:51) Moreno right guard for 2 yards
2)3rd Qtr 3-2-Den47 (10:13) Simms pass short right to Marshall for 5 yards

San Diego
1)3rd Qtr 3-1-Den45 (12:58) Moreno left tackle for 36 yards
2)4th Qtr 3-2-Den28 (3:39) Orton pass incomplete short right to Gaffney
3)4th Qtr 4-2-Den28 (3:33) Orton pass incomplete short right to Gaffney

New York Giants
1)2nd Qtr 3-1-NYG1 (7:21) Moreno right tackle for 1 yard, touchdown
2)4th Qtr 3-1-NYG11 (6:31) Buckhalter left end for 2 yards

@Kansas City
1)4th Qtr 3-1-Den14 (4:36) False Start Penalty

@Indianapolis
1)1st Qtr 3-2-Den19 (8:18) Buckhalter up middle for -2 yards
2)2nd Qtr 3-1-Ind45 (1:03) Moreno right tackle for no gain
3)2nd Qtr 4-1-Ind45 (0:43) Moreno up the middle for no gain
4)3rd Qtr 3-2-Den27 (13:51) Orton pass incomplete short right to Royal
5)3rd Qtr 3-1-Ind33 (10:10) Delay of Game penalty
6)3rd Qtr 3-1-Ind15 (5:03) False start penalty
7)4th Qtr 3-1-Ind20 (12:28) Orton up the middle for 2 yards

     Overall, you can see that 3rd or 4th and short has not been a particularly common occurrence for the Broncos.  They have averaged about 3 of that situation per game.  Of the 40 plays in that category, 14 of them (35%) happened in two games (Oakland and Indianapolis), while the Kansas City game had only a single occurrence.

     Hillis' number was called twice in short yardage situations.  One resulted in an incomplete pass, the other in a no gain run.  Moreno has been called upon 16 times.  15 of his runs were between the tackles.  10 of those runs resulted in first downs.

Just something to consider.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 71 comments  |  13 recs  | 

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Um

What about Moreno’s 2nd TD in the Chiefs game? It was 4th and inches, and he went off the left end for the score.

"Really, I'm a high-motor guy. Tough, hard-nosed, a hard runner, can make you miss at times. And just competitive. I love to play the game and I bring that energy to my team. So, we'll see how that goes." - Knowshon Moreno

Knowshon Moreno=ROY

by stedtfeld on Dec 13, 2009 11:30 PM MST reply actions  

thanks for the catch, I somehow missed that one

I’ll try to remember to edit the post in the a.m. since it will alter the numbers just a tad (probably not much, but worth noting).

Again, thanks for catching the omission.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 13, 2009 11:48 PM MST up reply actions  

truly

I think much of the “we can’t convert on 3rd/4th & short” is based on whatever game has just been played. After all, against the Colts, we went 1 for 6. Which if you think about it, 6 opportunities represent 15% of the short yardage situations we’ve had so far this year.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 13, 2009 11:50 PM MST up reply actions  

I think you got it right, BShrout

It’s kind of a take off on “What have you done for me lately”——— it morphs into “What have you done to me lately’” when we lose. Not a perfect analogy, but I think close enough.

by idahobronc on Dec 14, 2009 12:04 AM MST up reply actions  

My worry is these numbers against GOOD teams....and they are not flash....I wonder what league average is for picking up 3rd and short. Thanks B great post!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Dec 14, 2009 9:58 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm trying to locate that data as you type LOL

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

Football outsiders has it for their O-line stats

League average is 64% and we rank 11th. of course that hasn’t been updated since sunday. It also includes things like 1st and goal from the 1 so they aren’t strictly the same but they are close enough.

by Fan in Exile on Dec 14, 2009 11:01 AM MST up reply actions  

thanks for that update

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 11:55 AM MST up reply actions  

good point idaho, but

i was thinking almost the opposite on the eye test. that is, sometimes you need to trust your eyes and not statistics. the fact that so many people—here, tv, radio, friends, family, etc— have brought up the “moreno up the middle” question indicates to me that maybe some different plays should’ve been mixed in on short yardage downs.

by oxmouth on Dec 14, 2009 1:33 PM MST up reply actions  

and yet

we did try a variety of plays:

we had 7 3rd/4th & short plays in the Indy game. 3 were up the middle. The only conversion on that play was when Orton ran for 2 yards. 2 plays were nullified by penalties before they ever had a chance to be run — so we don’t know what was called. The remaining 2 (right tackle and a short pass) also failed to convert.

I think the short yardage issue is bigger than simply McD calling lots of runs up the middle.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 3:29 PM MST up reply actions  

i don't disagree

and i’m not saying mcdaniels is an idiot or anything. i just think that if “moreno up the middle” stuck out to me and a few thousand other folks, it probably was apparent to the colts defense as well. the problem probably wasn’t just the play calling—the o line HAS to do better on short yardage, as do the backs. i’m also not convinced that moreno even has the body to be the plow ahead for one or two yards kind of back.

by oxmouth on Dec 14, 2009 4:07 PM MST up reply actions  

very good points

and I hope I didn’t come across as hostile towards your remarks — which are all very valid IMHO. I think Moreno is much better when cutting off tackle than up the middle.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 7:02 PM MST up reply actions  

no hostility taken, bshrout.

you’re one of the people i’m relatively familiar with at MHR, so i pretty much assume you’re not being a jerk based on what i’ve seen of your other posts. (tragically, when newbies are involved, i probably tend to default to the “jerk” conclusion. :-) )

but yeah, moreno is a much better cut guy. but did it seem like he kind of left his mojo at home yesterday? i mean, he seemed WAY unsure at times and even dan fouts mentioned something to that effect. maybe nerves?

by oxmouth on Dec 14, 2009 9:26 PM MST up reply actions  

it seemed like the entire team left their mojo at home

at least until mid-way through the 2nd quarter when we were already down by 21.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 10:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Perhaps this could be viewed

as our team not having the belief they could really play with on a par with INDY, at least not until the fear of a humiliation made them mad. If so, (and this is all speculation), one could say the lesson learned the rest of the game may come in VERY handy later on….even this year.

by idahobronc on Dec 15, 2009 11:45 PM MST up reply actions  

that would definitely be a plus

Your observation about the team’s self-confidence also prompted me to think of the times that my student’s haven’t trusted me when I’ve told them that if they do x & y, z will occur. And then struggled because they’d do x but not y.

I wonder if part of what happened early in the Indy game was a similar thing happened with our players. McD told them if you do a & b, c will follow, and they didn’t have enough faith to fully embrace the plan.

Or maybe they just had a sucky day. LOL

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 16, 2009 9:18 AM MST up reply actions  

I generally try for a positive interpretation, if

all other things are equal. Your example of how your students respond seems like a universal human response. Maybe in retrospect (ie, after we win the SB this year) players will refer back to this game as that in which they learned exactly that lesson………….Well, a guy can dream.

by idahobronc on Dec 16, 2009 6:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for the research and post.

The Colts were playing the middle pretty well today…at least that is my perception.

by Blackknigh on Dec 14, 2009 12:12 AM MST reply actions  

These numbers don't include blocking technique

….so it can be misleading. Let me explain.

The Broncos have been scattershot this year with their blocking technique. With McD preferring the straight up man on man blocking from New England…while the line is essentially a zone blocking like (light, quick, use of leverage rather than brute force)…so taking this a bit further. Within the man on man scheme the holes are created by pushing the d line backward and holding the “gaps” between the guard and the center so the runner can find the holes. In zone blocking the brief cutback hole can appear anywhere along the line, but most often it appears between the tackle and the guard along the edges.

Last week vs Kansas City was primarily a zone blocking game. Both Buck and Moreno found holes around the edges, but also in the cutback alleyway between the center and most often the right guard.

To make a long story short my point (sorry for the scenic route there) is that running in short yardage has depended on the blocking scheme of the week. Against the Colts I saw the zone blocking used sparingly and man on man blocking used foremost. When this happens the line gets bulled over up the middle. And has all year. Moreno tends to excel in the zone scheme.

Also, Buckhalter takes the majority of the “bruising” yards and Moreno is often the beneficiary of Buck’s hard work. Moreno, when used normally can use his speed to change the pace of the game. Which is why not using Hillis during the game makes even less sense considering you had a fresh Hillis waiting.

by jpage78 on Dec 14, 2009 12:35 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

so some of Moreno's 3rd/4th and short

conversions could be chalked up to the blocking technique used that particular week. It’s not consistent. This week, up the middle (over and over and over) simply wasn’t working.

by jpage78 on Dec 14, 2009 12:42 AM MST up reply actions  

I'd love to see a fanpost about how well we run in different blocking teqniques

even if you dont got the stats, just how well we do when we man vs zone block.

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by RiG on Dec 14, 2009 2:59 PM MST up reply actions  

36% on 3rd down isn't all that bad, a little over 1/3 success.

A few more % and we would be pretty darn good. The reason so many people seem to notice it is it happens at unopportune time occasionally which makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

by bfree2bronc on Dec 14, 2009 1:03 AM MST reply actions  

A few more %

More than a 63% success ratio in short yardage would have done the trick.

When all you need is two yards or less, 63% is a urine-impoverished effort.

by Velveeta on Dec 14, 2009 5:50 AM MST up reply actions  

In this case, I have to agree

since the Colts had 6 3rd or 4th down and 2 or less to go situations and converted all 6, while the Broncos 8 such opportunities but converted only 1 of them.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 7:57 AM MST up reply actions  

What bothered me...

Was that the McDaniels kept calling a play that didn’t work.

Einstein said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I’m still hoping that McD’s playcalling effort was as much to set up the Colts for the playoffs as to win the game.

I’d also like to think the Coach is holding #22 in reserve to unleash on a surprised and bewildered defense in the playoffs. But I saw Hillis miss blocks when he was in as fullback, so trust might be a big issue there.

by Velveeta on Dec 14, 2009 5:45 AM MST reply actions  

While I don't necessarily agree with the play-calling

If you look at the plays to right tackle and up the middle in the rest of the game (not including those discussed above), you find that

4 runs to right tackle for a total of 18 yards, or 4 yards per carry average, and
8 runs up the middle for 16 yards, or 2 yards per carry average.

McDaniels may have felt that in a short yardage situation, these plays would have a reasonable chance of converting. As it turned out, the execution was not what it should have been and the plays failed.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 8:09 AM MST up reply actions  

The successful runs were when the D didn't know they were coming.

On those short yardage plays, everyone knew they were going to pound the middle. Some teams can do that, but the Broncos aren’t one of those.

by Velveeta on Dec 14, 2009 4:26 PM MST up reply actions  

very true

all I’m saying is that we pretty much failed no matter what we tried on 3rd/4th & short.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 7:02 PM MST up reply actions  

So what you are saying

Is situational football was played and Indy rose to the occasion.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Dec 14, 2009 5:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Great Post B

-Richee
-"If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will." - Abraham Lincoln
-Measure your performance against your best competitors and consider how you can use it to beat them the next time!

by BroncoSense72 on Dec 14, 2009 7:06 AM MST reply actions  

ty

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 7:47 AM MST up reply actions  

Excellent points on perspective. Thank you B.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Dec 14, 2009 8:07 AM MST reply actions  

thanks

As idahobronc pointed out, we tend to filter our sense of what is happening throughout the year through the lens of the most recent game — which in this case was a short yardage disaster.

As with many things this year, I tend to believe that the situation is not nearly as bad as many folks think. Hence the reason that we are 8-5 at this point rather than 3-10 (which is where many thought we would be).

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 8:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Blocking execution...

WIth the assumption that Orton can count, if the run plays called on 3rd/4th down could not have been blocked effectively, he would have either check out of them or called a TO. Since neither of these happened, I chalk it up to blocking execution. I saw twice the lead blocker taking the wrong man, at least twice a backside LB was able to scrape through, and the playside guards were getting blown up somewhat consistently.

All this play calling doubt is a bunch of MMQBing, if we would have run outside and got stuffed (or even passed) we would have calls for running it up the middle. Bottom line, is at the snap, they had a hat for a hat accounted for, and need to execute, which they did not.

As for the people calling for Hillis, with Larsen sidelined, who was suppose to lead block for him? Also, if he was blocking better when he has been in over the last few weeks, he would be touching the ball more.

by captain80 on Dec 14, 2009 8:35 AM MST reply actions  

Thanks B and rec'd

levelheaded and honest. hope this info spreads around a bit.

"I just looked across the huddle to see the guys in the huddle with me: great offensive line, great talent at wide receiver, great tight ends, great running backs. If we execute and play the way that we should, it should be tough to stop us."
-K.O.

by Jay Fin Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 9:33 AM MST reply actions  

Great post B. Rec'd. The eye test certainly doesn't always prove to be legitimate for some people, as you've proved.

Awesome job.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
Girl, you don't need to be a 10, as long as you have a good smile and smell like bacon.

by Troy Hufford on Dec 14, 2009 9:50 AM MST reply actions  

To put it in perspective

FO ranks power success which is how well teams do in short yardage situations and they’ve got pretty much the same numbers as Bshrout, which ranks us 11th overall. That seems to be pretty good to me and not sky is falling territory.

by Fan in Exile on Dec 14, 2009 10:05 AM MST reply actions  

Good post! I'm not necessarily concerned with the short yardage situations,

I’m just worried about our red zone offense. Two out of four attempts is not good enough to beat a team like the colts. That is one area I think we all would like to see our team do better in. No turnovers and no stalling inside the red zone. Oh, and making field goals couldn’t hurt either.

"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".

"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.

by broncoholic on Dec 14, 2009 1:56 PM MST reply actions  

I believe the delay of game penalty was on Knowshon.

After being tackled he chucked the ball down field. Foolish mistakes cost us the game. How many penalties incurred on the special teams? Way too many and they cost us valuable field position and points. We had our chances to win this game even though we were down 21-0 at one point. Our offenses inability to move the ball and score was the problem, not the defense.

by bfree2bronc on Dec 14, 2009 2:18 PM MST reply actions  

could well be, though Orton got blamed for it. :)

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 3:30 PM MST up reply actions  

That's interest (on Orton) as the penalty was called so quickly,

what could have have done to cause it? The only thing I saw was Moreno tossing the ball up field after his 2-3 yd carry. Away from the ref’s. The analyst never replayed it and had no comment on it as I could see, after watching the game again this morning.

by bfree2bronc on Dec 14, 2009 3:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Gotta disagree with you on the offense/defense issue, though

It cannot all be laid at the feet of the offense.

After Indy’s first 4 drives, we outscored the Colts 16-14.

The defense put the offense in a deep hole. On the third scoring drive, the defense picked up a 15 yard unnecessary roughness penalty and gave up a 22 yard pass play on 4th & 4 both in the 2nd Quarter on the drive that made the score 21-0.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 3:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I hear what you are saying and most probably had us written off after they went up 21-0.

I for one didn’t and really thought [here I go thinking again] that we still had a good chance to pull out a victory. I guess that’s the never give up side of me and something we as Bronco fans aren’t used much anymore. Count the drives we had and then count the points. They don’t add up and I ain’t saying that the Colts defense aren’t a great defense but targeting Marshall on 90% of the passing plays and losing Buckhalter to injury hurt us. Moreno had some good runs to the outsides and why McD kept calling runs up the middle when we were getting blown off, and I mean blown off is pure ridiculous to keep trying. True though, giving up 21 points does change the playbook but they had other avenues to go down. I was thinking maybe a 3 TE plan where Sheffler would line up wide with Quinn and Graham to protect Orton. Let’s face it, they had 2 rookie DB’s and a banged up safety. You have to exploit the weakness, McD didn’t give Kyle the opportunity to do so, that’s has me concerned.

by bfree2bronc on Dec 14, 2009 3:51 PM MST up reply actions  

truly

question though, wasn’t scheffler also hurt early on in the game? I’m trying to remember.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 3:57 PM MST up reply actions  

I never gave(give) up hope either bfree

Even though #7 isn’t back there, I believe we have a team that can make come backs. Now 28-0, I would have been worried. =)

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM MST up reply actions  

The Dog ate my Homework!

Leave it to a Teacher to school everyone. Lol
Great work and thanks B.
Rec’d

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Dec 14, 2009 5:16 PM MST reply actions  

This seems to me

Like one of the times where the stats are misleading. Even if overall we have been successful in that situation we obviously weren’t against Indianapolis. So why keep calling that type of play if the other team is better prepared to stop it than you are to run it? I hope to see more creativity in the play calling should a similar situation arise.

by wyo-bronco on Dec 14, 2009 6:03 PM MST reply actions  

diversity and variety would have been very welcome in the playcalling

I find myself wondering how much of the problem lies in the guys who are dinged up — Scheffler, Harris being out, Buckhalter going down, Larsen going down, etc.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 14, 2009 7:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Very impressive...YOU have a true Coach's insight!

-Richee
-Measure your performance against your best competitors and consider how you can use it to beat them the next time!
-Your concious mind can only hold one thought at a time, positive or negative. Which is it going to be???

by BroncoSense72 on Dec 15, 2009 9:40 AM MST up reply actions  

Turn Green...Now!

What a marvelous analysis – thank you, Jeremy

Moreno/Buckhalter in '09

by Doc Bear on Dec 15, 2009 1:23 PM MST up reply actions  

This deserves its own post

"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche

by Horsepower on Dec 15, 2009 7:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Very nice indeed.

This is the sort of thinking and analysis that I really appreciate, but am not very good at generating on my own. Best damn site on the net!

by idahobronc on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Larson and 3rd down

I looked and noted when Denver ran 3rd and short and Larson was available as a FB Denver went 5-5 in those situations.

... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear

by 3nS on Dec 17, 2009 11:00 AM MST up reply actions  

cool

thanks for adding your research

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 17, 2009 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

In a word "WOW"

great research and awesome presentation.

thanks for adding it to the discussion.

rec’d

Might I suggest a cut & paste & putting this forward as it’s own post?

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 15, 2009 9:08 AM MST reply actions  

dang that was supposed to be a reply to Jeremy's comment.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 15, 2009 9:08 AM MST up reply actions  

I meant

Well that’s silly

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Well that's silly

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Dec 15, 2009 12:41 PM MST reply actions  

Good stuff B!

And Thanks for the addition Jeremy!

I always appreciate the pre-analyzed data and portrayals of said info. Especially when it’s laid out so well.

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM MST reply actions  

thanks

and help me to encourage jeremy to take his comment & make it a stand alone post. :)

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 15, 2009 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

I would need to polish it up some

I may get to that tomorrow perhaps, but we are closing in on fader domination time, and something tells me that whatever we do in that game, we will probably wash a lot of this bitter taste from our memories…

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 15, 2009 9:54 PM MST up reply actions  

surely you're not suggesting

that we tend to filter our perceptions through the lens of the most recently played game . . .

;-p

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 15, 2009 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Always late to the party, but good post B

Rec’d

"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche

by Horsepower on Dec 15, 2009 7:53 PM MST reply actions  

thanks,

maybe late, but always welcome

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 15, 2009 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

It seems to me

that Spencer Larson is the key to all this. The games that he was completely healthy – San Diego 1, Baltimore, Pittsburg, Washington – we did pretty well on short yardage. Not so much in the others. Do we need another sledgehammer FB for next year? Hillis is a RB and Moreno and Buck seem to take off when Larson is in the game.

by Coverboy on Dec 16, 2009 4:37 AM MST reply actions  

interesting notion.

I didn’t think to look at the differences between games/plays when Larson was on the field vs those when he wasn’t. Not even sure there’s any way to do that without going back & looking at every offensive play on film.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" Captain Peter Quincy Taggert in "Galaxy Quest"
"The best defense is a good offense. Or is it the other way around." Wolverine
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and know you will come down somewhere between the two.
Livin' in La La Land and Lovin' It

by Brian Shrout on Dec 16, 2009 9:19 AM MST up reply actions  

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