Is the 2009 draft a bust?
I admit, I am not the happiest camper right now in Bronco land, but after hearing much of the reaction from Bronco country regarding the loss, which basically was welll we aren't that good but at least we will have a good pick next season because of Chicago's collapse. Look, I want a good draft pick, but you can have all the top ten picks in the world, but if you blow the pick then it does you no good. Just ask the Lions, Raiders, and Browns how good it is to have a top ten pick year in and year out. I began to ponder our current players drafted and I am seriously wondering if we have had a huge bust on our hands. I know, it is really hard to judge the results of a draft until three to five years down the line, but in most regards, I think you have a good indication of how good the draft will turn out after the first season. So lets look at the 2009 draft and what we have:
1st Round (12) – Knowshon Moreno – One of the more controversial picks, Moreno was hailed as the franchise back that Denver had lacked since the days of Clinton Portis. Moreno season has been an up and down affair with some good performances with some poor performances. People would say that he leads all rookie running backs in yardage as an indication that he is good, but that may be more a function of who he is going against in his rookie and what system they are running versus how good he really is. The question comes down to was he worth a top 15 pick, is he a franchise type back who can carry the team, my feeling is that he is not that player. He has yet to crack 100 yards and does not seem to be an explosive player, he seems best as a complimentary type back and not as the feature back. I would characterize this pick as a bust due to the position we picked him at and guys like Orakpo, Cushing, and Larry English, who all have been having very good rookie seasons. For the amount of money we will be payng Moreno he has to be more productive, he has to have the ability to take over a game, I just don't see that being his future.
1st Round (18) – Robert Ayers – This was a pick I thought was very interesting, Ayers was seen by many as a one year wonder or basically a work-out wonder. His workouts at the Senior Bowl likely pushed him into the 1st round. Physically, Ayers appears be a very good potential OLB, although I feel his natural position is probably as a 4-3 DE. Ayers has struggled picking up a new position and a new system, as should have been expected. He looks lost at times when he is on the field. But he does have some times where he flashes some good ability. This may be a harder judgment call, because in a lot of ways, I had not anticipated Ayers having much impact until two to three years down the road. I would grade it as probably a good pick, but a wait and see. The tough thing with Ayers is that you would hope he would have a greater contribution and be able to beat out the likes of Mario Haggen, who is basically a nice player but not a dominate player.
2nd Round (37) – Alphonso Smith – I will admit, I hated this pick for what we gave up, which looks like a top 20 pick in 2010. I still hate this pick for the same reason. Smith was supposed to come in and solidify the nickel back position and eventually become a starter. Well, he has lost his job at nickel back to Jack Williams, who was cut, and then to Ty Law and now to Tony Carter. When he has been in, he has been routinely targeted (as in this past week’s game) and has shown why he slipped into the second round. He simply is not fast enough or big enough to match up with WR in the NFL, and college production does not equate to NFL ability. In addition, A. Smith has been a sore point on special teams, making far too many mistakes. For someone who was supposed to be at least ready to contribute, he has failed miserably. I would say this pick appears to be a bust and a huge gamble that looks like it will never pay off.
2nd Round (48) – Darcel MacBath – This pick puzzled a lot of people at the time since we had not really addressed the glaring needs on the front seven with the exception of Ayers. MacBath has been able to come in an contribute and looks like he will have a good future with the team. Obviously getting to play with some future HOF players helps in development, but MacBath has been pretty reliable for the most part. I think he will have some issues though mainly related to his size, he really is a CB playing safety, and I question his durability. I got to meet MacBath briefly at training camp, and he was a very nice man, but I was struck by his relatively small frame. He will need to make sure to be put in a center fielder role and not playing in the box that much. But I would say this looks like a solid pick.
2nd Round (64) Richard Quinn – Again, I was not a huge fan of this pick because I think a blocking TE doesn’t warrant a second round pick, especially when you already have the best blocking TE in the game in Daniel Graham. Quinn has not made much of any impact this year, he was touted as being able to help in short yardage, and yet that has been one of the facets we have struggled throughout the year. It is unsure whether he will ever be a pass catching threat, he wasn’t in college, but that doesn’t mean he can’t develop in the pros, but he has a long way to develop. If he turns into just a run blocker, then this pick was a waste, if he can develop into having some pass catching ability and provide some threat, then this will be a good pick. This one may be too early to tell at this point, Quinn will likely take three years to develop at a minimum, the question is can you wait that long for a 2nd rounder to devlop.
4th Round (114) David Bruton – This was a head shaker at the time, considering we had signed two safeties and drafted MacBath, but Burton has become a special teams ace and appears to have some potential at SS. I would say this is a good pick and it looks like he will be at least a good ST and role player for awhile.
4th Round (132) Seth Olson – This pick had me confused, not because we picked an OL, but because I thought there were some much better prospects at the guard position available at the time. Olson hasn’t seen the field, which is of no real surprise considering it generally takes Denver o-lineman a year on the bench to understand the system. Olson will likely get a shot at LG next year since it does not look like Hochstein is the answer as a starter, but I don’t know if Olson fits the scheme that McDaniels would like to run. Again, this will be a wait and see approach.
5th Round (141) Kenny McKinley – After impressing some in the preseason, McKinley has been a non-factor for much of the season. He arguably has a lot of other players to jump ahead of in order to get any significant playing time. I was hoping that McKinley would have a greater impact on ST as a returner, but I get scared every time he handles the ball with the fear he will get knocked out. McKinley really has a slight frame and I question whether he can be durable to last long in the NFL. Due to the fact he really does not look like a real return man, I would say this pick is a waste at this point. He may see some more time if Stokely is let go after next season, but I don’t see it as any type of upgrade.
6th Round (164) Tom Brandstater – After an interesting pre-season, you can see the potential in Brandstater. He has a very live arm, good touch, and appears to be the type of QB McDaniels likes. Can he be developed into a starter will be the interesting topic, it would appear that he will have the number 2 spot at no worse come next season, as I can see little reason for retaining Chris Simms. This appears to have been a good pick.
7th Round (225) Blake Shuster – I was surprised Shuster got cut, but honestly, 7th round guys have a very low probability of making a team. I would call this a waste, but in reality, you take a shot and hope you catch someone good. I give this pick a pass.
So in my estimation, our top three picks are no where near meeting expectations and don't look like any of the players will be franchise type players What is disheartening for me, is the look that the top of our draft was poor and we only hit on some good players later on. This was a similar situation to many of Mike Shanahan’s drafts. I don’t see any all-pros in this group and few being an impact player. This draft was touted as we want to win now, the problem is that few of the players are making any significant contribution to that win now philosophy and they don’t look like they will improve our possibility of winning later. In addition, for whatever gain we have gotten from the Cutler trade, we have limited our position in this year’s draft by trading away a lot of our picks, which looks like it will have much more talent available, especially on the defensive line. The staff needs to really take a hard look at their evaluation system, the difference between great teams like the Steelers and Patriots and the bad teams like the Lions and Browns, are that when the Steelers and Pats have a chance at a top ten pick, they don't miss, they get an impact guy, a difference maker. They also rarely miss on 1st and 2nd rounders, if we don't want continued mediocre teams, we have to make sure we hit on the top half of the draft.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Yes it's cliche...
but it’s way to early to call them busts…
Sure, they are high round picks…
Sure, other high round picks have been a major impact to their respective teams…
Yet, the jump to the NFL is a big one and not everyone adapts as quickly..
Im with you, I would have loved for them all to shine and be impact players…
But it remains the same as ever…you cant call someone bust after 9 months in the league…
It’s about this time that we can firmly say: Jarvis Moss is a bust….
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
I called Moss a bust after last year
Hasn’t changed my opinion much on him this year. I thought he was a reach when we took him, especially considering we traded up to get him.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Oh, for the love of God...
The selfish, they're all standing in line
Faithing and hoping to buy themselves time
Me, I figure as each breath goes by
I only own my mind-- Pearl Jam, "I am Mine"
by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 22, 2009 9:18 AM MST reply actions
Write this again in 3 years
Or did you have Trevor Pryce as a bust too since he hardly saw the field his rookie year?
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
Well, Trevor Pryce was on a different team
He was not counted on to make an impact, he really was drafted on potential. But there are plenty of other 1st round busts in Bronco history that you knew after one season:
George Foster, Willie Middlebrooks, Marcus Nash, any of them ring a bell?
Likewise, there are a lot of first round draft picks that had instant impacts: Al Wilson, DJ Williams, Ryan Clady…
So I don’t know if you can’t have some inclination on how good a draft is (especially on the top half) after one season.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
you're going to get castigated for this
by the crowd here, but I think that your point is spot on. the jury is still out to some degree, but this draft has been very poor so far.
Ayers and Moreno look average at best. Quinn was a ridiculous reach, especially considering how awful this team is in short yardage. The Smith trade/pick looks absolutely ridiculous. He’s been abused this year by so many teams.
I hope so too, again, maybe too much to expect much from a guy switching positions and schemes
in his first season, but you would hope he would be able to at least start.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
My biggest question mark is Moreno.
First I want to give you credit for writing this, not an easy thing to do when you know many will criticize you for it.
I have no problem doing the wait and see thing for our rookies, but Moreno does have me concerned. I really, I mean really want him to be a dominate RB for us for years to come. There’s just something missing with him for me, and I can’t put my finger on it. I know he is leading all rookie RB’s in yards and looking to have a 1,000 yard season. However he really seems to struggle, and I find him stumbling on many ocasions. It’s hard to say if he’s thinking to much, or trying too hard.
He should be a good RB for us, so I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt for this year. Next year he’ll hopefully do for us, what he did for Georgia.
Denver rookie head coach Josh McDaniels doesn't have a grasp on how to build a team." - John Clayton, April 23rd, 2009
As much as I like Hillis...
I can’t help but marvel in the Hillis highlights at the huge holes he is running through. Watching Moreno run and then rewatching him run, I just don’t see much daylight. When he gets a sliver to run through he takes it.
The question was this draft a bust?
No. Not at all! Every year there will be good picks and bad picks but if you can get 2 or 3 starters by year 3 the draft was good and there is no question in my mind that there are at least three starters here.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
It's okay to be concerned but
it’s still too early to tell.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
You are fine to write this and I mostly agree...
There will be those that criticize you; If you were writing about the success of the draft, and the players were playing well at the time, most on this board would be happy to agree with you and not tell you to wait for 3 years. But if you have the nerve to criticize the draft, you will take some hits…nobody circles the wagons like MileHighReport, but it is still the best football site on the web and those that always stick up for the coach/GM/QB and those (sadly like me) that seem to criticize must put up with each other.
The circling the wagons thing goes both ways.
The biggest critics of this years draft haven’t changed a single tune from what they were saying in April. The same people that were McD critics in February, remain McD critics today, etc.
I think it comes down to how you approach being a fan: there’s the silver lining crew and the weevil in the bread crew.
As for any of the 32 draft classes this year, its way too early to say one way another.
The selfish, they're all standing in line
Faithing and hoping to buy themselves time
Me, I figure as each breath goes by
I only own my mind-- Pearl Jam, "I am Mine"
by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 22, 2009 2:43 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I think I may be the worst
I thought everything McD did before the first regular season snap turned to junk. After the 6-0 start, I apologized profusely and thought everything he did turned to gold. Now, I’m swinging back towards my preseason thinking (although I will continue to admit I was dead wrong on Cutler). I fluctuate like Oprah’s weight. The strange thing is I was more level during Shanny’s reign. I guess the change was just so big this year that I’m still wobbling and looking to right myself.
Good point on the "levelness" of Shanny's reign
there weren’t any major spikes during his time here (and it was a looooong time).
If we were to graph Shanny’s tenure, from a roster talent/offseason overhaul point of view, it would start on a very high note, and consistently, slowly drop off over the course of fifteen years.
A couple of small blips of note: signing Plummer, Drafting Cutler, the 2008 draft, the yearly defensive coordinator carousel. As roller coasters go, his tenure was a dud.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 22, 2009 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
Well said (again) PO
-Richee
-Measure your performance against your best competitors and consider how you can use it to beat them the next time!
-Your concious mind can only hold one thought at a time, positive or negative. Which is it going to be???
by BroncoSense72 on Dec 23, 2009 6:35 AM MST up reply actions
re: "circling wagons"
One of my main interests is Motivated Cognition, which is the umbrella term I use for the general area of cognitive biases/heuristics, a term Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky entered into our vocabulary with their seminal research.
During Shanahan’s tenure, there was general willingness to grant the benefit of the doubt to the coaching staff regarding the wisdom of drafting certain prospects. Support for the staff’s wisdom gradually eroded when on-the-field results made it an untenable belief, but confidence in Shanahan’s expertise rarely wavered and his firing came as a surprise to nearly everyone.
The standard we now apply to McDaniels (and conspicuously McDaniels and not a more inclusive label referencing Xanders) is different than the one which was applied for many years. It’s as if many people had simply forgotten the “draft drought” and applied a new standard.
Recently, I noted that “boom/bust” language that’s become so popular is more at home in market speculation, an activity that by it’s very nature is akin to gambling. In fact, direct references to gambling are often used to describe the draft. And while I don’t disagree that there’s an element of luck involved, the use of this language creates a misleading frame that further misleads when it’s carried into argument.
Research of the practices of successful franchises (e.g., Pittsburgh, New England, etc.) shows that they groom their prospects over a long period of time rather than attempting to push them into action before they’re ready. These successful franchises also have very specific demands regarding the duties that draftees must perform, which go well beyond the nebulous labels given by the public, such as DE. Draftees undergo an apprenticeship for a position which is — often — highly specialized and exists only within the structure of a particular scheme. Becoming proficient within that highly structured and uniquely individualized role requires time, and the process is more mental than physical and requires a daunting amount of homework in order to accommodate to the complexity of the role.
Objective standards point to a fairly successful 2009 draft class but it’s still so early that most of the draftees are struggling to fit in and learn, which is what is expected for an apprenticeship for a role in a complex system. Some examples from around the league show how slow the learning process can be. Of particular interest to me are the alternate draft choices that many here touted, and especially those who were drafted by teams which employ a likewise philosophy of grooming their players for specialized tasks. For instance, Indianapolis drafted Fili Moala in the 2nd and Colt fans aren’t happy with him even though the team’s success has overshadowed any grumbling. Pittsburgh drafted Evander Hood at the end of the 1st but he wasn’t active for the first six games and has only gradually gained playing time, but partly because of injuries. Chicago, although perhaps not the best example, drafted Jarron Gilbert early in the 3rd but his statistics don’t reveal much contribution. Kansas City drafted Alex Magee around the same time and his story is similar to Gilbert’s.
Many of the alternative draft choice have fared no better and are suffering the same problems on their current teams. There’s usually a few exceptions, but the problem is that the people who were pushing Jairus Byrd (CB) or Terrance Knighton (NT) didn’t do it here, at least not that I recall. Moreover, even a closer inspection of the successes reveals a story that doesn’t reveal a “I told you so” angle that the kibitzers seem to want to portray. For instance, Brian Orakpo (DE) was an interesting pick and went immediately after Moreno. He wouldn’t have been a bad pick, if we were to have chosen him, as his high draft position reveals, but he wasn’t as suited to our defense. His success this season has been impressive, but it comes on one of the most talented DLs in the league. Brian Cushing (OLB) is another option that we deferred on. I can’t say I know all of the particulars related to his performance, but his position as a SAM in a 4-3 seems much more appropriate than what we could have used him for in our scheme.
There are plenty of examples. Cherry-picking results from players that we would never have dreamed of drafting isn’t particularly impressive. Darius Butler (CB) was considered a better prospect by some of the best authorities, such as Mike Mayock, but his experience with New England sounds very much like Alphonso Smith’s. Ron Brace (NT) was touted by many here as the better choice (albeit better than someone we never had the chance to draft), but there’s little indication that we would done better if we had made the choice that kibitzers praised.
We knew going in that few 1st year players are able to meet the fans’ expectations, so the fact that some fans would be unhappy now was entirely predictable. Moreover, the recent success of Tony Carter (CB) points to the fact that the draftees weren’t the only prospects in the 2009 class worthy of mention. Carter’s success consists of a single game, much like Alphonso Smith’s, whose initial game led many to conclude that he was capable of far greater things than he has shown since then. Neither opinion is warranted at this point. Nor is the opinion that Knowshon Moreno has failed, which isn’t based on anything factual but the opinions of people whose standards conveniently change whenever the team loses and an opportunity arises to criticize. Motivated cognitions are often opinions that people espouse whenever expedient. The reason for their opinion often has little to do with their current stance. Rather than arguing from premises to conclusions, the process often looks like conclusions in search of good premises. The opinion was formed long ago and for reasons that have little to with a logical process.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Dec 23, 2009 6:08 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
Great stuff Colinski
Re: cherry picking favorable results, while ignoring context (i.e. comparing Orakpo to Alphonso Smith), I am preparing a post right now that talks about the “arbitrary” as neither true nor false, and while I will be addressing some practical methods for dealing with it, I have a larger goal which is to contextualize how the positing of the arbitrary is a direct attack on the reasoning faculty.
I hope you will be able to check it out. Tonight or tomorrow I expect to be done. There are a lot of christmas cookies to eat tonight, so no promises….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 23, 2009 8:53 PM MST up reply actions
I'm a Bayesian
There are a few hits and misses out there but mostly it’s we’ll wait and see, which is about where the base rate tells us we should be.
This is a pretty good evaluation of how everybody did in the last draft.
BTW — Last year’s draft was lionized, but the glow has tarnished somewhat since then. Many of those players, even the ones that are now gone, were discussed in the context of how lucky we were to find them. And that was despite the fact that — in some cases — they hardly ever played. I wouldn’t say that the 2008 draft was bad, since it contained picks such as Clady, but the willingness of most people to believe it was good despite the lack of concrete evidence is a sharp contrast to this year.
no goats, no glory.
Not sure what role Bayesian probability plays in epistemology
but if I were to take my post beyond the “arbitrary as neither true nor false” premise, I would dive into the contextuality of certainty premise. What I just read on Bayesian epistemology makes me think that it occupies a spot where I normally would define an “evidencial continuum” i.e. transitional states of certainty (possible, probable, likely…sounds like an injury report)). Are you saying specifically Bayesian in regards to draft evaluation, or as a general approach? It sounds like a calculus method for probablility, and thus I would imagine it is hard to apply it ina general epistemological sense….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 23, 2009 11:03 PM MST up reply actions
re: the late great Reverend Bayes
And he did all so he could figure out how to perfect his home brew.
The draft seems like the perfect situation to apply Bayesian probability. And I would be amazed if McDaniels hasn’t run into it in his pursuit of a mathematics degree, besides what he learned at New England.
Anyone who has studied Decision Theory is well acquainted with the work of Bayes.
no goats, no glory.
applicability to draft factors
It emphasized that in actual human (as opposed to normatively correct) decision-making “losses loom larger than gains”, people are more focused on changes in their utility states than the states themselves and estimation of subjective probabilities is severely biased by anchoring.
This seems to be key…I wonder if you might expand on it a bit? Not sure what is meant by “anchoring,” but this reeks of cognitive bias. I can think of specific draft examples (Jerry Jones’ “point value chart for picks” springs to mind, though on the surface it tries to objectify pick value), but maybe you could provide some additional insight?
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 24, 2009 12:14 AM MST up reply actions
I'll try to interpret
People’s values are skewed. For instance, people place a higher importance on dollars lost than on dollars gained, so framing a problem as a loss will lead people to employ a different strategy than if it was framed as a gain. There are ways of rationalizing this. Quit while you’re ahead in one, but you’re actually placing a value on regret rather the probability of an expected payout in the situation. Conversely, people often go for broke in situations that they define as negative. They ignore the odds somewhat. The gist of this is that people use different strategies depending on how they define a situation. It’s a little like driving to work one way and coming home via another route and then saying that they’re both the shortest route. Traffic may vary at different times but they both can’t be shortest.
Anchoring is from “anchor and adjust.”
Anchoring
Anchoring or focalism is a cognitive bias that describes the common human tendency to rely too heavily, or “anchor,” on one trait or piece of information when making decisions.
Anchoring is essentially cherry-picking evidence to support your pet theory. IMO, some of the negative attitudes towards draftees have more to do with Cutlergate and our latest losses. We were optimistic last year because we had faith in Shanahan but we’re pessimistic this year because McDaniels was smeared during Cutlergate. It isn’t so much the draftees’ performance but the level of expectation we’ve placed on the team, which are because of unrelated matters. A way of showing this is through a diagnostic question: “would people have liked this class if it were Shananhan’s?” The answer is yes, which is irrational.
There are all too many examples of irrationality in thinking, and many past drafts have contained more than their fair share. Becoming familiar with some of the ideas from within Decision Theory equips one to deal with making decisions under conditions of uncertainty. The draft is a marvelous example of a situation that needs the help of Decision Theory. Let’s hope that Al Davis never gets wind of it.
no goats, no glory.
also
he must not have had time to actually create the perfect homebrew? A search for his recipe turned up nothing but spambot protection for python-based blogs… :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 24, 2009 12:16 AM MST up reply actions
I forget the whole story
He needed to do statistical calculations to estimate the time it would take for his home brew to ferment and it took him into the area of probability.
no goats, no glory.
great post Colinski
completely agree with your thoughs
by gnarlybroncodude on Dec 23, 2009 9:31 PM MST up reply actions
Ski, Great reply, it should be used as a stand alone fan post. Rec'd
The discussion that your post generated with Jeremy is probably just a preview of what this type of an approach will produce as we move to the best part of the season, the draft,. Draft season is where hope springs eternal and the raiders will never beat us at home.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Dec 26, 2009 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
While it is too early to declare players as busts, I agree that the draft has to be rated as questionable at best, for now. Especially the reach for Smith, who started the season as our nickel but quickly moved down the depth chart and committed penalties on special teams. At least that didn’t cost us the higher of our two first rounders, but if the Broncos had their own number one, could they have parlayed that, Chicago’s, and something else for Suh? I hate the Huskers. But I love Suh.
And with the 32nd pick in the 2009 NHL draft, the Red Wings select: Someone other than Ryan O'Reilly. LOL@Detoilet.
by Bob in Boulder on Dec 22, 2009 11:39 AM MST reply actions
Yep, it really would be nice to be able to move up to get Suh
I too hate the huskers, but that kid looks like the next Reggie White
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
did the season end without anyone telling me?
If we’re going to evaluate our draft based on this season alone, can we wait till it’s completed?
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Unknown, Hanlon's Razor
by bcfunk on Dec 22, 2009 12:23 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I guess I could of waited
But I was getting annoyed with a lot of people pointing to the idea that we will get a top ten pick next year, so everything is good (not saying anyone here, but a lot of people were calling radio stations with that comment).
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Agree with you
Ayers – too early to tell. But Phonz is a disappointment. And as for Moreno – he is a rookie, but he did not have a rookie season nearly as good as our 2 first picks from ’08 – Clady and Eddie. Yeah, both went backwards this year, but that is second question.
I rec'd because its never to early to begin this kind of debate, BUT
I disagree completely that any of these guys can be considered a bust. A rookie is just that…a rookie. How can we call them a bust and throw them away after less than a year of playing time? Transition from college to NFL takes time and we won’t know for sure until several more years who is a bust and who isn’t.
Dude, Shannon Sharpe didn’t even play much in his first year…Rod Smith was on the practice squad for crying out loud! Knowshon Moreno is on pace to finish near TERRELL DAVIS’ rookie marks in rushing yards…Dude is producing like TD did in his first year. TD! TD! I’m not saying Knowshon is the next TD, but I am saying that its absurd to say 1100 yards rushing in your rookie year is a bust.
The only guys I am wondering about is Ayers and Alphonso, but then I remember they are rookies and its absurd to judge them on how they have played thus far. Ask me again in 2011.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I have to disagree with him being on pace with TD
TD played in 14 games his rookie year, averaged 4.7 yds a carry, had 7 plus runs over 20 yards and 1 run over 40 yards, and 7 rushing TDs, and over 1,100 yards.
Moreno has played in 14 games, averaged 3.9 yds a carry and yardage is under 900 yads, has one run over 20 yards, has yet to break 100 yards in a game, and has not shown that he is getting better. TD got better as the season progressed. The other major difference is Moreno is a top 12 pick, at RB he should be able to come in and produce. RB is probably the easiest transtion between college and pros, other than blitz pick up, which again, TD excelled at early and Moreno continues to blow assignments.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
You can't compare TD to Moreno because they played or play for different offenses.
That’s like comparing apples to quints, same family different fruit. I wouldn’t say Moreno will have the type of career TD had but he has skills that set him aside from most of the other RB’s in the 2009 draft. Next year will be telling story of where Moreno might be headed. Can’t compare them two now though.
What the hell is a quint?
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Ha ha ...A fruit of the apple family, a little more tart but, make great jelly.
Just comparing that they (TD and Moreno) are close…Both RB’s, but the OLine is a different OLine, the QB’s are different in signal calling. I’m not convinced that Kyle isn’t giving something up with his signal calling. I have been scratching my head all season with the way they’ve played.
I call them "quinces"
They look like pears, but don’t get soft. Sort of like crabapples – edible only when cooked.
"Remember, it's only a game."
Different offenses or no, yards is yards
And I’m not so sure the offense is that complicated for a RB. In 2004, Corey Dillon flipped from Cincinnati to NE and promptly ran for over 1600 yards with a 4.7 average. That was probably as major a shift as Moreno has made and Dillon was 30.
And you can’t give running backs 3 years to prove themselves. They just don’t last that long in the NFL.
Your right. Moreno's a bust and McD was a fool for ever taking a chance on the top rated running back in the draft.
McD you fool!
Not a bust yet, but a disappointment
And, yeah, some of it is the struggles of the OL.
But how a guy is rated in the draft is not a defense – draft rating vs actual NFL sucess is pretty hit-and-miss. Top-rated guys are busts or just OK pros, while 6th round picks can go to the HOF. I’d want to see a team devise their own rating system, and if the “top back in the draft” isn’t worth pick #12 then draft someone else or trade the pick.
The shift from college to pro is much bigger than the shift from one system to another.
Not only is the NFL faster and more complicated on the field, but there is so much to learn off the field as well. Not to mention the seasons longer and more grueling.
by Fan in Exile on Dec 23, 2009 10:24 AM MST up reply actions
You could argue whether the Bengals teams Dillon was on were NFL teams
Some would have been hard pressed to qualify for a BCS bowl. But all had very basic offensive schemes compared to NE. And Dillon was 30 after several years of being rode hard and put up wet. 30 for a RB is something like 130 for normal humans.
You can't argue that
you just can’t even the worst NFL team is playing on a different level than college. Even an SEC team, they’re just that much better.
FYI Football Outsiders just picked KM for their all rookie team starting RB, and they aren’t Broncos fans in the least, and they can see his strengths.
by Fan in Exile on Dec 23, 2009 1:45 PM MST up reply actions
Well its really to early to judge any of these players
and i disagree with most of your thoughts. After the bad loss on sunday I think people are looking at people to blame and you choose the rookies. The last people that should be blamed after a bad game or bad season are the rookies. They are called rookies for a reason. The transition from college football to the pro level is the hardest to do in all of sports. It is a completely different game. I personally think you were one who did not like our draft class to start and now its your time to try to say I told you so.
I think Knowshon will be fine and he has flashed that he has all pro ability. The system he is being thrown into is one of the most complicated; if not the most complicated; in the league. The Pats and now Bronco system ask a lot from their RB. Knowshon is thinking too much right now and is still adjusting to the NFL level. Once he starts trusting his instincts he will be fine and prove all his naysayers wrong.
Ayers has not shown up on the stat sheet but he is a big reason Doom has 16 sacks this year. He has all the physical tools to play at the NFL level and I have seen him manhandle a few tackles this season. The Broncos are asking him to play 3 positions when he has played only one his entire football career. He was strictly a DE in college. It is not easy to adjust to the NFL when you are being asked to play DE, DT and OLB. He essentially has to learn 3 positions and learn all his responsibilities for each position. It is hard enough for players to come in and adjust to one position. He is adjusting and getting better each week. I loved this pick when it happened and I still do. Alot of people would have loved Brian Orakpo but I was not one of those people. Yes Orakpo has 11 sacks this year but he is also playing with a very good DLine and the best DT in the league in Haynesworth. I think if you switch out Ayers and Orakpo you would be getting similar results.
Alphonso Smith will always be one of the most controversial picks on this site. We traded our 1st round pick for him and nobody liked it. I do not think it will be a top 20 pick because I think we will make the playoffs. The rules have changed this year for the Draft. All Teams that did not make the playoffs pick before the playoff teams. So if we make the playoffs our pick would be 21+. Ted Bartlett had some good points in ST&NO today about Smith. It though he played better in the game against the raiders then he did previously. He a couple good pass breakups and the winning TD he gave up was not his fault as it was offensive PI.
McBath and Burton both look like future starters at safety. I love McBath and think he will be a star. Renaldo Hill is also a converted CB that now plays safety and they have very similar frames. Hill has been the most underrated defensive player this year and is a key player. McBaths abilities remind me a lot of Hill but with more speed. I love his future.
I was surprised we traded up to draft Quinn but I trust the coaches. I knew he would not get a lot of playing time because we have two stud TE in front of him in Scheff and Graham. If Scheff leaves in FA we will see a lot more of this kid next year.
Olsen, McKinley and Brandstater have really not gotten a chance to show anything since the preseason. Brandstater and Olsen have been inactive all year and Mckinley has been activated only a few games. McKinley has the speed to play at the NFL but he needs to add some muscle because he has a very small frame. Before I see any of them play more I really can not judge them.
Personally I am a person who thinks you can not judge a rookie until they have played 3 whole years. Rookies rarely contribute their first years. In 3 years if these players have not improved I will be the first to admit I was wrong however I do not think I will be. You bring up the Pats and Steelers as good drafters but you rarely if ever see any of their rookies contribute in their first year. You forget to mention that the Pats and Steelers draft players and then let them sit on the bench for 1-2 years to let them learn and adjust to the NFL. This is what all the elite teams do. The Broncos do not have this luxury because we do not have veteran players at each position that were better then the rookies. Give Josh McDaniels time to get his players in and we will see the full potential of these players and Mcd as a coach.
by gnarlybroncodude on Dec 22, 2009 5:42 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
That was a reach and not sure if it was a good move on the Rook!
I was surprised we traded up to draft Quinn but I trust the coaches
I've said it before
and I’ll say it again. It is a good thing our rookies aren’t starting. That means we’ve got talented veterans in front of them. That’s what rookies do (for the most part) is play special teams, sub where needed, learn the game, and then come in and play well down the line. At least for a good team.
If we were the Lions and had to start a bunch of rookies because there was no one better to play they would have a bunch of stats. Frankly, that’s just not how quality teams work their rookies (by and large).
Great post gnarly.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Dec 23, 2009 9:37 AM MST up reply actions
I really don't blame the rookies for the loss
What I was getting at is a lot of people are hanging their hat on we will get a top ten pick this draft and everything will be fine, I wanted to look at the picks and see how successful the new adminstration has been in their first draft and if that bodes well or poorly for the next year’s draft. Granted it is not a foregone conclusion that any of my thoughts or analysis will pan out, maybe all the players become HOF players and I am proven an idiot, but I think there are some positions and players you can have a good indication of how well they will do after their rookie year. Conversly, you could also say that there are plenty of guys who had awesome rookie years and then flamed out (Mike Croel being one that comes to mind). But I think there are some guys you can kind of tell are going to be special and some guys you can tell are going to be nothing more than filler for three years.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I agree 100%
with your frustration at hearing that somehow all the shorterm woes we are experiencing will be washed away by our top ten (likely) pick.
The best thing I can speculate about that pick, is how much it nets in a trade down scenario. We have for more needs than we can account for in FA and the draft (though I expect McXanders to impress me. Again). Mor picks would be huge in my opinion. I’m loving the Mocks which are currently speculating a trade down…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 23, 2009 8:58 PM MST up reply actions
Spot On
Gnarly … good points. It’s too early and the best thing you said was that we are all looking for the ‘fall guy’ to point the blame. As usual, the loss, and the wins were team efforts.
I really don’t understand a lot of the concern about Moreno. I look at that guy and see flashes of TD. Perhaps that’s my orange and blue glasses but the guy has IT. But, at this point he seems to lack a little confidence and is trying to think too much instead of react.
But I have definitely seen the flashes this year that I expect to see on a more regular basis in the future. It would frankly help him a lot if our O-line would live up to my expectations. But again, orange and blue glasses.
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race" Calvin Coolidge
Well said, gnarly
Personally I am a person who thinks you can not judge a rookie until they have played 3 whole years.
Can you name an NFL HC, coordinator, GM or assistant who believes that you judge a draft later that same year? It’s pretty easy to criticize rookies – by definition, they make the most mistakes. However, since that has little (or nothing) to do with their eventual play, I’m not sure of the point.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Knowshon
will be fine. He is having a great year for a rookie — especially considering he’s split time with Buckhalter and the O-line fell apart.
To me Shon’s failures are more a result of the line not making holes for him. He will get better at hitting the gap as soon as the chaos upfront is handled. People also forget that with all the changes on the line this year McD is changing the entire system. There will be growing pains. Just sucks we have to feel those pains on 1st and goal to goes turned field goals.
~me
the first round RBs taken last year
were Darren McFadden (3rd), Jonathan Stewart (13th), Felix Jones (22nd), Rashard Mendenhall (23rd), and Chris Johnson (24th). The only one of them who Knowshon’s numbers don’t compare favorably with are Chris Johnson, who outgains Moreno’s projected yardage total as well as better receiving numbers. The only one of those I would consider calling a bust is McFadden, who has regressed from where he was last year, but it’s tough to run well for a team that can’t pass, and you can tell McFadden definitely has some talent in him by watching him.
The only legitimate knock I see on Moreno is his YPC of 3.9. However, the line has to take some of the blame for this. Was anyone seeing those stretch plays against Oakland? Where was he supposed to run on those?
As for the missed blocking assignments argument I’ve seen bandied about a bit, I really haven’t seen a whole lot of this, and I watch some amount of film on a weekly basis. I could be wrong though, I focus most on o-line and d-line play when I watch.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
I was shocked
At most of our draft, actually. When we took Knowshon, I had already texted a bunch of people that we got Brian Orakpo. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I don’t think we should have passed on Orakpo. He was projected as a top five pick and fell for some odd reason. We should have jumped on him, but I’m happy with Moreno.
When we took Robert Ayers, I was downright angry. He was a bust in college, and was not very productive. He went from a fringe third round pick to a first round pick in a matter of days. I don’t know who scouted him for us, but they obviously liked what they saw for us to be able to pass on Orakpo, Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, and Rey Maualuga, all of whom are outplaying him.
When we traded up into the second round the first time, I guaranteed Maualuga would be a Bronco.
I still wish he were. I am happy with Alphonso Smith provided the dude gets some playing time sometime soon, but for now, he appears to be on the way to being a bust. Ty Law and Jack Williams have both replaced him as the nickel back at some point in time this season, and we promoted Tony Carter from the PS who was playing over him on Sunday as well. Not looking good for Phonz, but I’m willing to wait.
McBath was a surprising pick to me, as I forgot he was even available in this draft and he grades out more as a fourth round pick. I think he was a steal where we got him, he appears to be a solid safety for the future.
Quinn was the biggest shocker. I thought we would go for a potential 3-4 end in Jarron Gilbert, who was taken early in the third by Chicago, but we went with a third string TE who was not productive in college but has good blocking skills and enormous hands. Apparently he was expected to come off the boards in the third round, so we traded up and got him.
Trading two thirds for another second and a fourth netted us two fourth round picks, both of which I really like.
David Bruton played well on Sunday, and has been a special teams ace for us. I like him a lot.
Seth Olsen is a good guard/tackle prospect, and i hope he can fill in at center for us.
Kenny McKinley was a luxury pick to me. I didn’t know much about him, other than the fact that he was the best wideout Steve Spurrier had ever coached. He has yet to see the field on offense after a promising preseason.
Brandstater was an underrated pick, though he looked like a lost puppy against Seattle in the preseason. He picked it up against Arizona, and I thought he did pretty well. Could be the QB of the future with a strong arm and good intangibles.
Schlueter was a waste of a pick, apparently. Stupid choice by McX looking back.
Hindsight, our draft could have been:
1: Orakpo
1: Chris Wells?
2: Maualuga
2: McBath
2: Jarron Gilbert
4: Bruton
4: Olsen
5: McKinley
6: Brandstater
7: Anyone but Schlueter might have made the team…
Hindsight is tough
I would say maybe we could of nabbed Percy Harvin, how nice would it be to have his skills as a KR/PR and another explosive player.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I really think it is pointless to look at the "What ifs"
We have to live with the players that were drafted. Personally I was not big on Orakpo. He is the classic workout warrior and really was not that great at texas. I still think he is highly overrated and his stats are inflated because he plays on for a team with a really good front 7. I loved the Ayers pick. He was a 1 year wonder at Tennessee but he was not a bust in college like you say. He was great in the practices and game at the senior bowl and he had an ok combine. I would not change the first round you have for the one that happened. Wells is no where close to the talent that Moreno is. Orakpo is having a good season but I think Ayers long term future looks better.
People need to move on from the 2009 draft. The players that were picked are now Broncos and they deserve our support. It is very easy to go back and rejudge the draft class and cherry pick who would have been better but the past is the past
by gnarlybroncodude on Dec 23, 2009 9:43 PM MST up reply actions
It's different when every Bronco fan seemingly knew what would happen
Moreno was in my final mock, but I had us taking Cushing also in the first, and Cushing is the front-runner for the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year. Many, MANY Bronco fans thought we would take Cushing, and we probably should have.
That being said, I LOVE our rookies and am glad with what we have. I am behind this regime 100%, and I’m excited about the up-coming draft.
by Sayre Bedinger on Dec 23, 2009 10:44 PM MST up reply actions
Sayre. I did a post examining the scenario
if we would have chosen Orakpo here. Things would have been different at that point, and the following teams selections would have changed the results down the board a ways.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
We'll see in a few years how we feel about this draft
"Really, I'm a high-motor guy. Tough, hard-nosed, a hard runner, can make you miss at times. And just competitive. I love to play the game and I bring that energy to my team. So, we'll see how that goes." - Knowshon Moreno
Knowshon Moreno=ROY
Way Too Early
Future stars from 09 draft are:
1. Moreno
2. Ayers
3. A. Smith
4. Mckinley
5. Bruton
6. Quinn
The only player who I was hoping to do better Moreno but once Harris went down after the 4th or 5th game it hurt Moreno’s chances. Said another way these players will be stars for years to come, give it time.
oc60
A late 2nd round pick for a blocking TE is acceptable
I have no objections on using a late 2nd pick for a blocking TE, especially if the pick is used for one of the highest rated blocking TEs. I was a constant advocate for drafting a TE in both the 2008 and the 2009 draft, so I will not crawfish on the use of a first day pick for that position. I like Graham’s contributions, but it made sense to restock at that position, especially as Scheff’s future was questionable due to injury history and the high probability of losing him to free agency. If that critieria for Scheff is still valid, we should consider restocking and getting a receiving TE in this year’s draft.
As for whether Quinn has played up to expectations and shown the proper amount of potential, I will let others make that evaluation.
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.




























