Open Discussion on The CBA- Smart People Needed
by 3nS on Dec 29, 2009 3:59 PM MST
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We talk a lot about the ramifications of the CBA on the Broncos. But, what is that? Without a CBA the players will have to play 6 seasons before they become UFA. So what does that exactly mean for players like Marshall, Kuper, Scheffler, and I think even Orton. How many free agents does Denver truly have? I'm not sure as far as compensation etc. A smart poster would know this but I don't claim that. So I'd like to open this up for discussion for you smart people. There will also be 3 Tags that a team can put on a player in order to keep them. This seems as though the free agent pickings will be slim even with the playoff teams being limited with their ability to sign players. Kaptain Kirk wrote a series on the CBA which is good to reread but I'd like to know how this will effect Denver's ability to keep their own Free agents as well as to sign other teams free agents.
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I'm not as smart as alot of people here but
great post. I just wrote something in regards to playoff teams/CBA/ and us making the playoffs. Sorry I can’t add anything but I can’t want to get educated on this subject.
My understanding, and it is somewhat limited
Is that the players would be RFA (Marshall, Scheffler, Orton, Dummerville), meaning they could sign with another team but that the Broncos have the rights to match the offer or get compenstation for them. Now I am not sure how the transition players or franchise player tags work in that scenario, but I think some of it is basically what designation you put on a player, do you tender him a 1st round offer or something lower which would determine the compenstation paacakage you would have to recieve from another team that signed them.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I hear
A 1st and 3rd a lot as regaurds compensation for RFA’s. If that is true which ones are you willing to part with?
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
On second thought
Pears was a RFA last year and Denver chose to let him go for nothing. So I don’t know how that works either.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
that is because we didnt tender pears
if we tender marshall, doomervil, etc, we get compensation picks for the team who signs him
Here is a list of the Top 70 Restricted Free Agents
posted last month By PFW:
Here is also a list of AFC and NFC FA’s
Rank Player Pos. Years Team
1 Marcus McNeill T 4 San Diego
2 Tony Brown DT 5 Tennessee
3 DeMeco Ryans MLB 4 Houston
4 Shawne Merriman OLB 5 San Diego
5 Vincent Jackson WR 5 San Diego
6 Braylon Edwards WR 5 Cleveland
7 Jahri Evans G 4 New Orleans
8 Elvis Dumervil OLB 4 Denver
9 Leon Washington RB 4 NY Jets
10 Harvey Dahl G 4 Atlanta
11 Jason Campbell QB 5 Washington
12 Nick Collins FS 5 Green Bay
13 Kyle Orton QB 5 Denver
14 D’Qwell Jackson ILB 4 Cleveland
15 Mark Anderson DE 4 Chicago
16 Barrett Ruud MLB 5 Tampa Bay
17 Logan Mankins G 4 New England
18 Brandon Marshall WR 4 Denver
19 Johnny Jolly DL 4 Green Bay
20 Darren Sproles RB/KR 5 San Diego
21 Marlin Jackson CB 5 Indianapolis
22 Dawan Landry SS 4 Baltimore
23 Jerious Norwood RB 4 Atlanta
24 Donald Penn C/T 4 Tampa Bay
25 Kirk Morrison MLB 5 Oakland
26 Willie Colon T 4 Pittsburgh
27 Ray Edwards DE 4 Minnesota
28 Lance Moore WR 4 New Orleans
29 Thomas Davis LB/S 5 Carolina
30 Owen Daniels TE 4 Houston
31 Richard Marshall CB 4 Carolina
32 Mark Clayton WR 5 Baltimore
33 Antoine Bethea FS 4 Indianapolis
34 Jeremy Trueblood T 4 Tampa Bay
35 Barry Cofield DT 4 NY Giants
36 Stephen Tulloch MLB 4 Tennessee
37 LenDale White RB 4 Tennessee
38 O.J. Atogwe FS 5 St. Louis
39 Thomas Howard OLB 4 Oakland
40 Tony Scheffler TE 4 Denver
41 Chris Henry WR 5 Cincinnati
42 Roman Harper SS 4 New Orleans
43 Stephen Gostkowski K 4 New England
44 Anthony Fasano TE 4 Miami
45 Clint Ingram OLB 4 Jacksonville
46 Atari Bigby SS 4 Green Bay
47 Miles Austin WR 4 Dallas
48 Tyson Clabo T 4 Atlanta
49 Rocky McIntosh OLB 4 Washington
50 Charlie Johnson G/T 4 Indianapolis
51 Derrick Johnson OLB 5 Kansas City
52 Omar Gaither OLB 4 Philadelphia
53 Bo Scaife TE 5 Tennessee
54 Abram Elam SS 4 Cleveland
55 Richie Ingognito G 4 St. Louis
56 Leonard Weaver FB 5 Philadelphia
57 Jerome Harrison RB 4 Cleveland
58 Jason Spitz G 4 Green Bay
59 Deuce Latui G 4 Arizona
60 Kellen Clemens QB 4 NY Jets
61 Sinorice Moss WR 4 NY Giants
62 Tarvaris Jackson QB 4 Minnesota
63 Pierre Woods OLB 4 New England
64 Ellis Hobbs CB 5 Philadelphia
65 Daryn Colledge G 4 Green Bay
66 Malcolm Floyd WR 5 San Diego
67 Gerald Sensabaugh SS 5 Dallas
68 Brodie Croyle QB 4 Kansas City
69 Kevin Dockery CB 4 NY Giants
70 Chris Gocong OLB 4 Philadelphia
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Dec 29, 2009 7:35 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
The numbers are their current years
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Hi Kaptain
you might want to edit No.#41. RIP
I always enjoy your articles
by Broncolorado on Dec 29, 2009 7:41 PM MST up reply actions
Sorry
I DID say it was from last month. I should have stated that I haven’t edited it. There may be a player that already has signed too.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Thanks Kap
you are a big help.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Wow PFW is very stupid and very wrong.
Braylon Edwards ahead of Brandon Marshall. There is not one team in the NFL that believes this.
Marshall and Elvis would both be in the Top 5 of this list. No way Ligaments Out is a Top 4 guy anymore.
Antoine Bethea, O.J. Atogwe, Stephen Tulloch, & Jeremy Trueblood should be much higher.
As this list is old, I understand why Miles Austin is low, but he is now a Top 7 guy. No doubt about it. Well ahead of Braylon Edwards.
This is my favorite website.
I don't know much about the CBA...
…but I do know that there are some concerns that many teams will slash and burn and underspend rather than the opposite. Thus, there could be a glut of FA and it might become a buyer’s market. I like that scenario with an owner like Bowlen.
The selfish, they're all standing in line
Faithing and hoping to buy themselves time
Me, I figure as each breath goes by
I only own my mind-- Pearl Jam, "I am Mine"
by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 29, 2009 8:02 PM MST reply actions
I have been trying to track down the link to a good article
By Jason La Canfora at NFL.com. It explains many things and there is a look at more position players.
Breaking down the free-agent class of an unpredictable offseason.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Good read
Its like I thought not much coming in the free agent category. It sounds like the only way teams would get quality players they want is to trade for them.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
So let me get this straight
The draft pick that a team receives for another team signing a RFA depends on the tender?
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
yes...
I think there are 4 tenders:
These numbers are from 2008, so could be a little higher in 2009:
Tender 1 – 2.562 million – 1st and 3rd round pick compensation
Tender 2 – 2.017 million – 1st round pick compensation
Tender 3 – 1.417 million – 2nd round pick compensation
Tender 4 – 927.000 – Compensation depending on players original draft position.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_free_agent#Tender_amounts)
Wiki also offers some example that I thought explained the situation pretty good:
Examples of possible outcomes
In addition to the following outcomes, if a player does not receive an offer sheet from his original team, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. If a player signs the offer sheet from his original team, he remains with that team.
* Team declining to match offer sheet. Carolina Panthers cornerback Ricky Manning, Jr. was a restricted free agent in the 2006 offseason. Based on the tender placed on Manning by the Panthers, the team would receive a third-round pick in the NFL Draft if Manning signed with another team. On April 21, the Chicago Bears signed Manning to an offer sheet – a five-year contract worth up to $23 million. Although the Panthers had a full week to decide if they wanted to match the offer sheet, they announced on April 24 that they would not match. At this time, Manning became a member of the Bears and the Panthers received a third-round draft choice in the 2006 draft from Chicago.
* Team matching offer sheet. Arizona Cardinals offensive guard Reggie Wells was a restricted free agent in the 2006 offseason. On March 17, the Buffalo Bills signed him to an offer sheet – a five-year deal worth approximately $18 million. Four days later on March 21, the Cardinals matched the Bills’ offer sheet for Wells, and he reverted to the Cardinals.
* Team consummating a trade. The Miami Dolphins offered wide receiver Wes Welker a second-round tender in 2007. Although it was widely rumored that the New England Patriots would offer Welker a seven-year, $35 million deal, the Patriots ultimately traded their second- and seventh-round draft picks to the Dolphins for Welker, signing Welker to a five-year, $18 million contract.
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
by BroncosNL on Dec 29, 2009 11:09 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Cool Thanks
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
2009 Tenders
1 — $2.79M
2 — $2.10M
3 — $1.54M
4 — $1.01M (or 110%) CBA say “at” not “dependent” — not sure it make a real difference
5 — $1.01M (this level simply gives right of first refusal, no draft picks)
So
I would think Doom and Marshall would get tender 1. Orton gets a tender 3, Scheffler and Kuper get a tender 4, which would give them a 2nd for Scheffler and a 4th for Kuper.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
I like the CBA talk and this is what I think will happen.
I think Scheffler will get a 2nd round tender. No team is going to give up a 2nd round pick for Scheffler and he’d be very useful to Denver at a salary around or below $2MM in 2010. No way Tony gets a new deal and no way Denver lets him walk for free when keeping him is so inexpensive.
I think Kuper also gets a 2nd round tender, maybe even a 1st round tender. Kuper is an average starting RG and well worth a $2MM yearly salary. As playoff teams are severely limited in signing FAs, do you really see a team with a Top 20 overall draft pick giving it to Denver so they can sign Kuper. Would you trade for Kuper when you have a chance to draft someone like Dez Bryant, Renaldo McClain or Jermaine Gresham? Neither would I. Denver would be crazy to let a starting RG walk when our LG and C are also in need of immediate replacement. Changing three O-line spots in one offseason… No thank you.
I think Elvis gets a new long term deal. Elvis is just entering his prime (he is just 25 years old) and the guy is a bona fide Super Star. Elvis has several more NFL sacks than Mario Williams, whom was drafted in the same year as Elvis. When was the last time a young super star with no attitude problems was allowed to leave a team as a FA? Never! He has earned a new deal with his play and Bowlen would be setting a very bad example not to reward Elvis for his production. At worst, Elvis will get a franchise tag because teams would part with 1st and 3rd round picks to have a 15+ sack guy that is just 25. The Vikings traded more than this for Jared Allen and KC got robbed on that deal.
I think Marshall also gets a new long term deal for many of the same reasons as Elvis. Marshall is about to be a 100 catch receiver for the 3rd season in a row. That is remarkable. He is just 25 and entering his prime. He has several great seasons ahead and is easily one of the best 10 WRs in the NFL, best 3 young WRs. Marshall would star on several NFL teams, in fact, he’d be the best player on several NFL teams.
Denver’s core players are Elvis, Marshall and Clady, maybe Ryan Harris. We are going to build around these players and we should. They are franchise talents.
Orton…. Wow. This is a hard one. I think Denver should put a 1st and 3rd round tender on the guy. Again, is any team going to give Denver a Top 20 overall draft pick for Orton? I doubt it and if so, Thank YOU. In the pecking order of talent and importance to Denver. Our 2010 RFAs goes – 1. Marshall, 2. Elvis, 3. Orton, 4. Kuper, 5. Scheff. I don’t see Bowlen giving three big new deals. The thing that sucks for Orton is that Kyle played well in 2009. He played hurt and his overall impact was clearly positive. But the NFL is a business and screwing over Orton with a $2.5MM yearly deal is good business for Denver even if it sucks for Orton. I could easily see a team parting with a 1st and 3rd round pick for Elvis or Marshall since those guys are super stars and would be on several teams, Orton is not. Orton is just a solid QB with limited upside. Denver made Marshall play on a crappy deal in 2009 and I think they’ll make Orton play on one in 2010. They should… Sorry Kyle.
IMO, a 2010 uncapped year will be very good for Denver. I think all five of Denver’s RFA will be Broncos in 2010.
This is my favorite website.
by McGeorge on Dec 30, 2009 7:57 AM MST reply actions 3 recs
Good assessment
I can see Scheffler leaving but Denver would get at least a 2nd for him. Especially if Shannahan is a coach somewhere. Otherwise they all stay. I wouldn’t be surprised if the deals are 1 year or heavy on the first year. Do you see any RFA that Denver might be willing to take a draft choice hit on? Do you see an expensive underachiever that Denver would be willing to let go since they won’t take a cap hit?
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Easy… Champ Bailey. This would nearly be a slam dunk if Alphonso Smith didn’t suck so bad in 2009. Having no backup for Bailey should save his job for 2010. But he is overpaid.
This Sunday will be the last game in a Bronco uniform for: Stokley, Hamilton and very possibly Dan Graham.
This is my favorite website.
Agree that they miss playoffs, but Graham?
He is our top TE. Who do you see Broncos sign to replace him? Quinn is not anywhere near, Scheff’s situation is uncertain and he still is not as good a blocker. And you can not count on getting equal quality in the draft – we have too many real holes to fill even without having to bother about TE spot.
Good analysis
I think you are absolutely right with the rank ordering of the RFAs. Unfortunately, there are still question marks around Marshall, given that he wanted (and maybe still wants) out of Denver. If the Broncos offer him the big money but he still wants out, will he sign or would he force the RFA tender 1?
BTW, I almost snorted my coffee when I read:
… screwing over Orton with a $2.5MM yearly deal…
Oh, if only I could get screwed over like that…
Cheers!
How would you feel if you were worth $100,000 per year to your company and they only offered you $33,000?
The NFL is a dangerous dangerous job. A lot of retired plays have trouble with simple things like walking or remembering who they are due to head injuries and such. Those guys are “screwed over” much worse than average Joes. It’s all relative my friend.
This is my favorite website.
I just was commenting on the phrasing, which struck me as humorous. I wasn’t saying anything at all about the fairness of the thing. But, since you brought it up:
Orton made $1.1M this year. A level 1 tender more than doubles his salary.
34 NFL QBs have a total salary equal or greater than the level 1 tender. Of the ten QBs clustered at the level 1 tender level (5 above, 5 below), 2 are (rookie) starters. This suggests Orton is worth more than the tender, but how much more? Based upon the discussion we’ve been having, I’d estimate his market value at roughly double the tender, putting him on par with guys like Pennington and Flacco.
Correcting your analogy then, if I were worth $100,000 to the company they’d offer me a raise from $20,000 to $50,000. Still less than my worth, but a definite net improvement for me.
And yes, I am 100% on board with you that the players are in fact screwed over. As fans, we tend to focus on the high end salaries, forgetting that there are some low end salaries there too. Very few of these guys are prepared to go on with decent paying jobs, and most aren’t smart enough to save every penny. The owners and league are getting rich off the sweat and blood of the players, most of whom are treated like used tissues when their career is over. The owners opted out of the CBA (which had extension provisions through 2012) in order to force a new agreement and take even more money from the players as soon as they sensed a potential weakness in the NFLPA. If the players strike in 2011, I’d hate it as a fan, but would certainly understand the need for it.
Salaries have increased manifold
Guess why tickets and everything else is so expensive? Player salaries have grown many-many times over the past decades. Players used to play for real cheap. They are making more reasonable money now.
I would not compromise my health for Payton Manning’s salary.
Many things are worth more than money, even huge sums of money. I’ve never felt an NFL player is overpaid for the health risks they take. It is such a violent sport.
Some might call me a hypocrite because I do complain that a lot about NFL players make money period.. but that is because they are/were never good enough to play pro ball in the first place. Marquand Manuel jumps to mind, ditto on Mitch Berger circa 2009.
This is my favorite website.
Good logic there McGeorge
And a fair assessment. I was coming back to interject the same thoughts about Champ. It may be good to realize that at some point soon, the financial impact vs. return value of Bailey will curve below an acceptable level to keep him.
Some possible salary dumps and their 2009 money:
Stokley ($6,060,000)
Hamilton ($3,460,000) – His contract is up
Moss ($2,460,000)
Bailey ($8,003,050)
And even though McD brought them in, these two could be victims (will McD admit Chris Simms was a mistake?)
Simms ($1,005,000)
Jordan ($2,000,000)
Along with the $29.6M in “Dead Money”, regardless of Cap or not, there will be enough money to pay all 5 of those players. Signing Bonuses will keep yearly contract levels easily manageable.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
If McDaniels can’t admit mistakes, he is not ready to be an NFL coach.
There is no reason Simms should return in 2010. The guy has no value as an NFL player anymore.
We are going to learn a lot about McDaniels and Denver’s future during this offseason.
This is my favorite website.
Simms
I’d like to see Denver pick up Pennington to give Orton a run for his money.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Here you go
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Dec 30, 2009 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
sorry
Too quick on the draw
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Dec 30, 2009 11:53 AM MST up reply actions
Lets Say
Denver cut Champ to unload his heavy salary during an uncapped year. Then he would be a FA and not an UFA. Therefore a playoff team can sign him. Correct?
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Just saw on ESPN.com
that Le Kevin Smith will also be a restricted free agent if there is no CBA
Bleeding Orange & Blue in The Netherlands
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