Shake, Rattle & Roll: Dumervil's Chase, The Importance of Sacks & Keeping The King in The Building
It's good to be the king--of sacks.
That's because sacks are critical in today's NFL. Sacks have become such an important part of football, that today they are cause for orgasmic euphoria on the part of players and fans. It seems that this single act of taking the opposing quarterback down two-to-ten yards behind the line of scrimmage is almost on par with touchdowns themselves. Gyrating, break-dancing, and in the case of Shawn Merriman, outright seizures disguised as celebrations are in order after just a single sack.
Deacon Jones might have fathered the sack. Lawrence Taylor might have raised it through adolescence. And Michael Strahan might have helped it pay for college. But today, every roster is filled with a least one player trying to make a real man out of the sack.
That's because some sacks are hellaciously important. Not because Ryan Clady makes a lot of money defending against them. Not because Michael Lewis says so. But because a sack has real value.
So much value, in fact, that the Denver Broncos should resign Elvis Dumervil--before the king leaves the building.
The Temple of "Doom"
Let's start by stating the obvious. Elvis Dumervil is taking a run at the record book in 2009. He's going through left tackles like Al Davis goes through 1st-round draft picks. Dumervil is not only flourishing under the Mike Nolan 3-4, he's getting fat on the hog. With 14 sacks, there's an outside chance he could reach Strahan's single season record of 22.5.
With 5 games remaining, Dumervil needs to average 1.7 sacks/game. While this may appear like a lot, it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Dumervil is already averaging 1.2 sacks/game, so he'd need to amp up his current production slightly. But he's not miles behind Strahan's pace. Let's compare Strahan's 2001 season with Dumvervil's 2009 season through 12 weeks. Keep in mind Strahan had a week-12 bye and Dumervil a week-7 bye.
Strahan was at 15.5 with 5 games remaining, and averaged 1.4 sacks during that last stretch of games to set the bar at 22.5. Can Elvis get on a hot streak? The numbers suggest it's plausible. Here are the sacks/game average of his remaining opponents:
- Week 13: Kansas City (3.45 sacks/game)
- Week 14: Indianapolis (.909 sacks/game)
- Week 15: Oakland (2.7 sacks/game)
- Week 16: Philadelphia (2.45 sacks/game)
- Week 17: Kansas city (3.45 sacks/game)
The Colts don't allow many sacks, but every other team on the schedule could generate a multi-sack game for Dumervil. Given that Dumvervil is collecting 44% of his team's current sack total, we could take a overly-generalized and wildly simple stab at his potential sack number through the next 5 games:
- Week 13: 3.45 X 44% = 1.52 sacks
- Week 14: .909 X 44% =.04 sacks
- Week 15: 2.7 X 44% = 1.2 sacks
- Week 16: 2.45 X 44% = 1.08 sacks
- Week 17: 3.45 X 44% = 1.52 sacks
- Total Sacks = 5.72 + 14 (current) = 19.72 sacks
We might also simply take his average sacks per game and multiply them by 5 games. Using this method, he would end up with 20.36. Both methods are crude guesses, but no matter how you slice the numbers, it's clear that Dumervil is going to have to increase his production even more over the next five weeks and have. And there's no better way that to increase a player's production than taking on the Chiefs (twice) and the Raiders.
The Value of Sacks
Does all of this really matter or is it just a way for Dumervil to pump up his value for free-agency? Are sacks really that important as Denver makes its playoff push? Are sacks overrated? Just how valuable is a sack? And by default, how valuable is Dumervil?
Statistically, a team's sack total has a moderately-strong correlation to winning. Over the last ten seasons 1999-2008, the correlation coefficient (measure of the strength of the relationship of two variables on a scale of -1 to 1) of a team's sack total to team wins has been .4956. To give you an idea of how this type of correlation ranks with respect to other stats, consider the correlations of my weekly Stats That Don't Lie to team wins over the same time period:
Field Position Differential: .489
Time of Possession:.554
3rd - Down Efficiency: .511
Giveaways: -.486
For those that don't want to be bothered by what this means, simply know that there is a moderate to moderately strong relationship between sacks and wins (say three times fast: correlation is not causation). For those that like this stuff, we know we can square this number and postulate that sacks can explain/account for about 25% of a team's wins over a season. Either way, one would say that sacks have a moderate correlation to winning.
Brian Burke (the best football-stats man going) over at Advanced NFL Stats actually did me one better (this is not exceedingly difficult). Instead of calculating the correlation of stats to wins, he calculated the value of a sack itself. His findings? A sack has a expected point potential of 2 points:
If we average the expected points of all situations in which there wasn't a sack, and compare it with the average expected points following plays that did result in a sack, we get a difference of 2.0 points. In effect, a sack swings the balance of the game by an average of 2 points in favor of the defense, either by forcing a punt or a longer FG try, or even just putting a team in a predictable passing situation. That's a big swing for a single play. A turnover is generally worth 4 points, so a sack could be thought of as half as good as a fumble or interception.
Burke is right. This is a huge swing for one play. Two sacks in one game and you've got the equivalent of an interception or fumble. Three-and-a-half sacks, and your team is getting the equivalent of a touchdown, which was the case when Dumervil had four sacks in one game against Cleveland earlier in the year. It's little wonder then that there's a moderately-strong correlation between winning and sacks.
This allows us to put an approximate point value on Dumervil's sack numbers thus far this year. 28 points. That's quite a contribution from the 4th round draft pick and pint-sized Defensive End. In a season in which the Broncos have scored 196 points, that's a potential whopping 14% of the team's total.
Let's be careful, however. I'm not saying that Dumvervil has actually contributed 28 of Denver's 196 points. We are dealing with averages over time and point potentials. And many variables go into a single pass rush, specifically, coverage and other actions of all of the defensive linemen as a unit. Just last week against the Giants, for example, Vonnie Holliday stunted and took what amounted to three blockers out of the play so that Dumervil could attack up the middle for the sack of Eli Manning. However, the point is sound. Sacks--and Elvis Dumervil--have high value.
Burke's calculation is based the average for all sacks. But we also know intuitively, and without bull-rushing the point with more stats, that not all sacks are created equal. A few points of consideration:
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A sack on 3rd or 4th down is more valuable than a sack on 1st or 2nd down. This makes sense if you think about each down as a missed opportunity. On 1st down, if my quarterback is sacked and loses some yards, I've still got options--two to three more downs--to make up for the error. On 3rd (and occasionally 4th) down, a quarterback sack essentially ends the drive right there. There are no more options. I'm punting, or if I'm close enough to my opponent's goal line, I'm going for a field goal. Thus, the sack on 3rd down puts and end to more chances.
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A sack is more valuable than a stop because of the loss of yards and the inherent potential for a turnover. Consider the turnover risk to an offense, if on 3rd-and-3, I run right up the middle for 1 yard. I punt the ball and the other team gets a shot. There is more risk involved in dropping back on 3rd-and-3 and having a guy like Elvis Dumervil strip the ball from behind. And if that doesn't happen, at a minimum, my field position will have declined to a greater magnitude that a simple no-gainer.
-
Like turnovers, a sack later in the game is mover valuable than a sack early in the game. A sack on the 1st play of the game is going to be less valuable to my team than a sack on the last play of the game when the other team has a chance for a game winning pass. This is because in the first example, I've got dozens of drives and almost 4 full quarters to overcome the effect of the sack. On the second, I've no opportunity.
-
A sack when the game is in question is more valuable than a sack win winning easily. When my team is up by 30 points, a sack is going to be less meaningful than a sack when the game's outcome is still in question. While compiling a couple of extra sacks in scrub time might pad my stats and kick in some incentives in my contract, they are not nearly as valuable to my team.
-
A sack in my (the defense's) territory is more valuable than a sack in my opponent's (the offense's) territory. This has to do with the potential for points. As my opponent gets closer to my goal line, the chances of my opponent scoring increase. So a sack at my 40-yard line that takes my opponent out of field goal range is going to be more valuable than a sack when my opponent is at his own 30-yard line. The notable exception to this is when my opponent is backed up against his own goal line. In these situations, the possibility of a safety exists, and the point potential (for the defense) increases.
All five of these points may or may not seem logical to you and I, but the NFL doesn't see it this way. A sack is a sack--all of them, created equal.
Dumervil's Body of Work
If we accept our intuition as fact--and in this case it's wise to do so--we can begin to get our hands around the situational value of each of Dumervil's sacks.
Sack # 1 - Cleveland Browns, Week 2
Dumervil's first sack of the season was interesting to say the least. It came on the first play of the 3rd quarter. I would classify it as a coverage sack. However, Dumervil did make a nice power move to the inside after coming off the edge. The sack came out of the a base 5-2 look and it occurred on 1st-and-10 at Cleveland's 23-yard line. At the time, Denver was up only by 4 points, so the game was in question.
Sack # 2 - Cleveland Browns, Week 2
This sack came out of Denver's nickel package and Dumveril simply flew past John Saint Clair for the punishing sack of Brady Quinn. This was all Dumervil. The sack came with 11:19 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 2nd-and-17 at the Cleveland 13-yard line. Denver was up by 14 points
Sack # 3 - Cleveland Browns, Week 2
On the next play (3rd-and-22), Dumervil did the exact same thing to Saint Clair, going around him on the edge. The coverage was also excellent. Denver was again in its nickel package and the sack occurred at the 1-yard line and probably could have been called a safety.
Sack # 4 - Cleveland Browns, Week 2
This came with 7:29 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 3rd-and-1 at the Cleveland 29-yard line. Dumervil again abused Saint Clair with the outside speed rush in the nickel package. Denver was up by 21, however, so there was little doubt as to the outcome of the game.
Sack # 5 - Oakland, Week 3
This sack came with 7:16 in the 3rd quarter on a 3rd-and 10 at the Denver 45-yard line. Dumvervil bull rushed and then spun to the inside to get the sack, but this also had to do a lot with Denver's excellent coverage. Also, Denver was up by 17 points at the time. The came was still in question, but barely.
Sack # 6 - Oakland, Week 3
The sack came with 9:50 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 3rd-and-7 at the Oakland 14-yard line. Dumvervil starts on the outside and then stunts towards the middle and it untouched for the sack. This play essentially pins Oakland against it's goal line and they are forced to punt. With Denver up by 20, however, the game was not in question.
Sack # 7 - Dallas Cowboys, Week 4
The sack came with11:20 remaining in the 1st quarter on a 3rd-and-9 at the Dallas 40-yard line. Dumervil does his classic edge-rush-stop-on-a-dime-then-spin-to-the-inside move against Flozell Adams. Admittedly, the coverage helped him out. The game was very much in question, however, since the score was 0-0 and the Cowboys were force to punt as they were about to enter Denver's territory.
Sack # 8 - Dallas Cowboys, Week 4
The sack came with 7:37 remaining in the 3rd quarter on a 1st-and-10 at the Dallas 31-yard line. This is a coverage sack (out of a base 5-2 formation), but Dumvervil essentially gets under the pads of Adams and just pushes him back into the quarterback. Dallas was ahead by 3 at the time.
Sack # 9 - San Diego Chargers, Week 6
The sack came with 1:52 remaining in the 3rd quarter on a 3rd-and-3 at midfield. This was a speed rush (out of a "big" nickel package) that resulted in a fumble as well by Dumervil. With the Chargers behind only 1 point and driving into Denver territory, this was an exceedingly valuable sack.
Sack #10 - San Diego Chargers, Week 6
The sack came with 12:12 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 3rd-and-14 at the San Diego 23-yard line. Another great edge/speed rush from Dumervil gets Rivers before he can find an open man. The Chargers are forced to punt with Denver only ahead by 4 points at the time.
Sack # 10.5 - Pittsburgh Steelers, Week 8
This sack came with 8:03 remaining in the 1st quarter on a 3rd-and-4 at Pittsburgh's 37-yard line. Dumervil was credited with a half-sack on what really is a coverage sack. Denver was down by 3 a the time.
Sack # 11 - Washington Redskins, Week 10
This sack came with 13:24 remaining in the 3rd quarter on a 3rd-and-7 at Washington's 33-yard line. Dumvervil got credit for half of the sack, but it's the coverage that did it. Give much of the credit to the secondary on this one. Denver was up by 4 when this happened.
Sack # 12 - Washington Redskins, Week 10
The sack came with 8:57 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 1st-and-10 at the Washington 40-yard line. Dumervil came with his classic outside-to-inside move off the right edge out of a base 5-2 formation. The score was tied. This was a very valuable sack.
Sack # 13 - New York Giants, Week 12
This sack came with 2 minutes remaining in the 2nd quarter on a 3rd-and-4 at the Giant's 33-yard line. This was the stunt play (out of nickel coverage) referenced earlier. Thanks to Vonnie Holiday for taking out 3 blockers and allowing the stunt to work. Denver was up 16-0 at this point in the game.
Sack #14, New York Giants, Week 12
Dumervil's latest sack came with 9:08 remaining in the 4th quarter on a 1st-and-10 at the Giant's 32-yard line. Dumervil beats him man with another great outside-speed-inside-stop move and gets the strip-sack fumble. The Broncos recover. The score was 23-6, so the game was probably not in question at this point.
The Verdict
So what can we tell situationally about Dumervil's sacks this year? Quite a few things actually:
1) Dumervil gets a lot of his sacks on 3rd down. 9.5 of his sacks have come on 3rd down.
2) Dumervil gets a lot of his sacks in the 2nd half. 12.5 of his sacks have come in the 2nd half.
3) It's debatable, but I would estimate about 5 of his sacks were purely the result of coverage. I wouldn't consider this a high total.
4) Only 3 of his sacks where when the game was not in question.
5) If you didn't know already, the guy has amazing speed off the edge and an even more amazing ability to stop and get back to the inside.
To me, it's without question that Dumervil demonstrates an extremely high situational value. Some of his sacks have been against weaker opponents (Cleveland, Oakland), but he plays who is on the schedule, and a guy like Jared Allen has 7.5 sacks against the offensive line of the Packers, and people don't seem to mind. Moreover, Dumervil gets his sacks in critical situations with the game on the line and with so many of his sacks coming on 3rd down, he's a one-man-drive killer.
So how much is Dumervil worth in monetary terms?
The Value of "The King"
It's hard to say what will happen next year with the salary cap, but we can already get an idea of Dumervil's value as a free agent by looking at the recent deal struck by DeMarcus Ware of the Dallas Cowboys. The deal was a six-year $78 million deal with $40 million of guaranteed money. In 2008, Jared Allen singed a six-year $73.26 million deal with $31 million of guaranteed money. I believe these two deals (along with Dwight Freeney's $72 million deal) could serve as a benchmark for what Dumervil could be expecting. That is a hell of a lot of money for one guy.
Will Pat Bowlen, Brian Xanders, and Josh McDaniels pay this kind of change for Dumervil? That is the question. My gut tells me they won't, and that's why you saw Mario Haggan sign a modest extension this year along with the draft of Robert Ayers.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to resign him. Sacks have insane value. And so does Dumervil. Every time he puts the quarterback to the turf, he's opening up the door for point potential for Denver. In this light, he's as much of a contributor as an offensive player would be. This team would not have a 7-4 record without him.
Denver should try to keep the king in the building. Right Now.
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Comments
Dude!
You are the MAN!! I hope Elvis doesn’t leave the building.
I too dabbled in pacifism once...
by waltersobchakbronco on Dec 5, 2009 1:43 PM MST reply actions
Walter, if you can get me a toe by 3'oclock, we will be in business!
Thanks as always. And keep your posts coming. I read all of them and get a kick out of them too.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Ha Haaaaa!
I can get a toe, a toe is not a problem Dude!
Thanks for the support Dude. Hey check out the post by Jaffe (Just an Idea) – a damn good one too.
I too dabbled in pacifism once...
by waltersobchakbronco on Dec 5, 2009 5:55 PM MST up reply actions
Walter, I saw Jaffe´s post. It´s interesting. Like an annual meetings of ¨shareholders.¨
HT should actually have groupies, that´s how smart that guy is. If you think his posts are crazy good, you should see how well thought out his answers are to an email question. Easily the most valuable resource at MHR.
I just bring the comedy and a few stats…just tryin´to keep my mind limber.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Nice write up
Any idea what James Harrison of the Steeler’s was paid for in an extension. I think since he plays that outside linebacker/rush specialist he may be another good benchmark as to where Elvis will want money. Although Harrison was defensive player of the year, os that may make a difference.
Never give in, never give in
good point on Harrison, I think he signed for around $55 million, but I am sure someone will answer this one soon
Just when I thought I had all the bases covered on the potential contracts. Great point, alacumba. Why MHR is the best.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
I really hope that Elvis stays.
We need Doom back there to bring us some more SACKS!!! Great write, and hopefully the Broncos take your advice and lock him up as soon as possible.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
Imagine if he hits the record, broncoholic, the price tag goes way way up!
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Since we don't have to pay for a prima donna "Franchise" quarterback, we should be able to keep Doom!
One of the enduring effects of “The Trade” may be the salary cap situation. In the past, we have let far too many defensive stalwarts leave via free agency.
Fair, velveeta. I am worried they won't sign him, but will instead have to overpay for Orton and Marshall
…and he will be the one that escapes.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Contract
I think we will see a contract more like that of James Harrison 6 years, 52 mill with 20 mill bonus.
gylden
thanks for the numbers. I neglected to look at the Harrison deal. That would be more manageable, certainly. I am hopeful!
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Awesome work on the value of sacks
But anything that happens on the field is to some degree a product of teamwork. You mentioned Vonnie Holiday’s stunt. The work of other D-linemen is instrumental in freeing Doom to go after QBs. When line struggles, Doom is often left in the grasp of LT and totally contained.
On the flip side, when line play is excellent, does it really require king’s talent to be a king of sacks? When interior D-line frequently collapses pocket or threatens to, some of LT’s attention will be diverted to helping interior O-line. This would make easier for any side rusher to reach QB.
I would love to see Doom spend the rest of his career in Denver.
However, one thing to consider is that we could easily get a 1st and 3rd round pick for him with the highest RFA tender. Doom is certainly worth more than a 1st and 3rd rounder to the Broncos, but if he wants much more money than the Broncos are offering, we won’t walk away with nothing.
Jack, excellent point. Good stuff.
I’m like you, would like to see him here.
When the Vikes got Allen from the Chiefs after a 15.5 sack season, the price tage was a 1st and two 3rds, so you could be right.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Great photo!!
And great read as usual! Thank, man!
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
Yeah, enjoyed putting that one up... The King chasing...the peasant.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
The King
chasing the pretender to the throne!
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Dec 5, 2009 5:35 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks, TJ
I’m not sure Ayers has any impact on the Doom decision. It looks more and more to me like Ayers is being groomed to be a more rounded strong-side type OLB rather than primarily a rush guy. Though the classic rush-LB role gets more glory, the guys that stack the edge and do a lot of the no-glory work in the 3-4 are just as valuable. I look forward to the Doom-Ayers OLB tandem in Denver for years to come.
by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 5, 2009 3:12 PM MST reply actions
PO
Yeah, the Harrison comparison may be a better comparison.
So you see Ayers taking Haggan’s spot on the other side and a new contract for Doom then?
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Yeah
I think the sky is the limit for Ayers— so we could have a two-headed pass rushing beast at OLB (in otherwords, I don’t think they’re putting a lid on him), but I’ve been increasingly impressed with his discipline and his ability to hold/contain the edge.
Though it’ll take a couple of years to really get a feel for what McD/Nolan value in a player, Doom seems to be a unique and transcendent talent for any 3-4. His pass rushing is obvious, but he’s been pretty dang solid as a run defender too. He is also the heart/effort type of guy that McD talks about. I’d be stunned if he isn’t the number one FA priority. To me, he is way more valuable than a 1 and a 3.
Then again, I just comment on blogs…never made a dime in the industry.
by PredominantlyOrange on Dec 5, 2009 5:05 PM MST up reply actions
No sé, Don, pero es una pregunta muy importante.
This is why I don´t think Bowlen/Xander/McDaniels will get even close to overpaying for Doom
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Thanks for the comments thus far, everyone...back to the Bama-Florida game for awhile!
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Of the players we could least afford to lose Dumervil is number one on my list.
He is the only player on defense that other teams really fear and have to game plan to counter. He must be kept at all costs. Besides we’ve had him for a paltry contract and he deserves to get paid premium dollars for his work and leadership.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein
Agreed, ponderosa. Part of my reason for writing this was to explore his value.
After writing this piece, I am extremely high on keeping Dumervil…FIRST.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
I don't want to lose Doom.
The only real question becomes, “What can we afford to pay him?”
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marshall won’t cost us a lot because he will choose to go to another team next next year. I don’t know what kind of money will go to Orton either. Marshall would be hard to replace (he’s a very, very good receiver), but I think it is easier to find a good WR than a sack machine like Doom.
On the one hand, we can probably send a lot of money to Doom. He’s vey tough to replace, but more importantly, he’s CONSISTENTLY good at pressuring opposing QBs and just getting better all of the time. Also (and I hate to bring it up), we won’t be paying superstars like Bailey and Dawkins forever. Bailey’s departure (when it happens) should clear quite a bit of salary room. We do have a few aging players on the team (especialy at the DB positions). I hope Bailey and Dawkins (as well as Goodman and Hill) have many long productive years in Denver left.
On the other hand, despite the importance of having the sack master of the League on our team, management will have to balance how many other positions might have to take a talent hit to support that level of eliteness (and pay) for any single position.
Either way, losing Doom would be terribly unpopular with the fan base, even if it clears room for the team to improve overall. There is no doubt in my mind that Doom is the best sacking player in the League right now. I’d hate to be the guy in management that has to balance the quality of play for the team overall with cap issues.
Excellent artice, and very highly rec’d. What a tough think to have to think about!
Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
HT, That´s an interesting take on Marshall. I think most fans
although I am guessing would put the priorities this wayÑ
1) Marshall
2) Orton
3) Dumervil
For me, I would say:
1) Dumervil
2) Orton
3) Marshall
I agree with you. I think Orton knows what he has here and will sign for a very reasonable number. So really, it’s between Marshall and Dumervil. I choose Doom.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
sorry, meant to say this way: (dang spanish computer layout!)
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
I absolutely agree with your order of priority.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein
Great minds think alike.
: )
Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Dec 5, 2009 11:53 PM MST up reply actions
from what I remeber, Dawkins was pretty good value for the money, plus his contract was very front loaded, which helps a lot ’cause the majority of his cost will be taken care of by the end of next year, which will also probably be an uncapped year.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
Correct.
Besides the high value contracts coming to an end (Bailey), we also have a lot of older players (like Dawkins – in fact the entire secondary) that will turn over soon. That’s the point I meant to bring across. If we replace several veterans with rookies over the next three years, a contract with Doom at the end of the season is more possible.
Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Dec 5, 2009 11:57 PM MST up reply actions
Good question...
He’s been gone for about a week, now.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
by Tempestuous Binary on Dec 5, 2009 6:05 PM MST up reply actions
Not sure, CBF. First Fan and BChiper get much respect from me
I hope both of them are here every dawg-gone day.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
I just don't think the Broncs can even entertain the notion of letting Dumervil walk.
I still firmly believe in the notion of building championship teams from the lines out. Once you find a dominant Offensive or Defensive lineman, you can’t let them walk. No matter what.
I think the priorities are:
1 – Doom
2 – Kuper
3 – Orton
And then Marshall and Scheffler at 4 and 5. Marshall is an amazing weapon but he’s not the highest priority, no way.
by Gristle McThornbody on Dec 5, 2009 7:07 PM MST reply actions
Well, my two cents worth is that
Dumervil will want to stay in Denver just as most players in New England want to stay there, as well. McD has learned a lot from the Patriots organization, and I think one of the things he has learned is that you need to create an atmosphere that players are drawn to and that they want to play in.
You never really see NE paying ridiculous sums of money to players just because they produce well. You see them pay them something more like they should be paid (something reasonable for the team). The players understand the importance of playing as a “team” and they love the system and feel they have the best chance to succeed where they are.
I think Dumervil is absolutely loving it where he is and I am loving it as a fan, too. I think he will continue to play for Denver because that’s were he feels at home. Denver will probably give him a raise either this next year or the following year. He will understand that, and he’ll continue to play at a very high level like he has.
I tell you, this is the first time in a long while that I am this excited about our team. I mean, it looked kind of shaky at times before the season, but Denver has really shown me that they are a changed team… FINALLY. No more mediocrity. It’s so nice to know that if they play as hard as we’ve all seen them play this year, that they have a great chance to win any game. I haven’t been able to say that for a very long time.
they're going to have to give him a raise this off-season...
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Great points, NYNA
When I’m reading up on the Broncos financial and personnel situation, it rarely comes up that 6 of the Pats mainstay players including Brady (that I know of – there may have been more) took contracts at under market value to have a shot at winning a title each year. You can bet the farm that Orton is the kind of player who will do the same – he loves being taught and molded into a better QB, learning the position and how to win more effectively as McD has helped him do. Doom? He will probably lead the league this season and will be doing so in years to come, I suspect. Would he take a little less to have a shot at the Ring? Absolutely.
Between Xanders skill at the cap/contract end and the players own innate desire to be part of something exciting that lets them garner bigger endorsement contracts (not all money has to come via the salary numbers – NE steered companies to the players who helped them out on the contract end) and to enjoy winning during their career will work strongly in the Broncos favor. I like where the team is going.
Moreno/Buckhalter in '09
Thanks dude
You’re like the rug that ties this site together.
by BroncoInExile on Dec 5, 2009 8:48 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Let's not let Doom get away like Trevor Pryce did
Sometimes you’ve got to pay good money for good players.
Shanahan never got this in regard to Defensive line personnel.
by NYCBronx on Dec 5, 2009 10:00 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Baseball Fury!
Rightous avatar! (Better than The Orphans. They’re not in our network, even if they DO bop.)
Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe
by Steve Nichols on Dec 6, 2009 12:01 AM MST up reply actions
Warriors, come out tooo playaaaay.
Agreed, NYC. Agreed.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
I totally agree NYCBronx!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Sack #14 is my fave.
He looks like doom incarnate when he looms over Eli. I wouldn’t call it a strip-sack, more like a blindside forced fumble sack (although, admittedly, strip sack rolls off the tongue a bit better). Kinda like the one #27 put on that guy that just might redeem his career this season back in San Diego all those years ago…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
You have to be kidding me of course?
McDanielsXanders have to sign Dumervil, that’s all there is to it. Sack masters don’t just grow on trees you know. It’s a game changing tool at an opportune time that makes a difference in the outcome a lot of times. To stop momentum most importantly. Dumervil is a franchise type player in my opinion and those type of players stay with the team. Nuff said…no….I ain’t going to let them let him go…never…ever…dang, I got sentimental again…sorry. Oh yeah, and thanks for making my day TJ. If McDaniels let’s him go, I will have a hard time understanding why. Did I say he was playing in a system he has never played in before? Man, I don’t know.
Here's to a 4-sack game from Doom today, man.
"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher
Great post mate...
I feel that all the guys we need to sign MAY stay for a little below market value with incentives on back end, even Marshall.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
My 3rd favorite quality in a team.
1st is a punishing running game because you wear down the other team’s D and keep the opposing team’s ability to score on the sideline.
2nd is a run stuffing D because you eliminate the other team from doing what I said above. This is where Doom has surprised me the most. He has been very good at controlling his edge in the running game.
3rd is a punishing pass rush because once you’ve taken the other teams ability to effectively run the ball away they’re forced to throw the ball. Without an effective pass rush the opposing QB can pick apart the secondary, but with pressure the QB a) rushes throws which lead to INTs b) gets hit and fumbles the ball c) or gets sacked which results in negative yards, punts and momentum. There are very few QB’s that excel when the pressure is applied i.e. Big Ben (I hate playing the guy). Doom gives us that dominate pass rush and we would be foolish not resign him.
Dude
Truly great stuff man. I’m always amazed until I realize that I should expect no less from a man of your standard. This J’s for you.
Whoa DOOODE!
Excellent well written solid post.(We’re not worthy)
Absolutely rec’d.
No really. I liked this!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

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